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S04.E06: The Primary Source

Neptune

By Neptune
in Ghosts (US)

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Bastet
Bastet

I loved Thor's meta response to the reminder Carol is actually the most recent ghost addition:  "I think he was just referring to the core eight."

Badsamaritan
Badsamaritan

I liked the episode well enough, I did laugh at several bits, but I am so so tired of Sam siding with the ghosts over Jay. I did not like the 'shotgun' bit at all. Pete is a fucking GHOST, Sam, he sho

Annber03
Annber03

I LOVE that resolution to the whole issue with Isaac's book, LMAO XD! I kind of want that book to be real now, 'cause i would read the shit out of that. It's even more hilarious given Brandon Scott Jo

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ams1001

ams1001

Okay, the snail floating up at a snail's pace when he got sucked off...🤣

So his ghostly purpose was to help Trevor come to terms with missing his dog. That's actually kinda sweet.

Vampire Isaac Higgintooth. 🧛🏻 Gets to drain Alexander Hamilton's blood.

(Though...if the publisher really only does supernatural YA fiction, why were they going to publish a nonfiction book about some unknown Revolutionary War soldier in the first place?)

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Annber03

Annber03

I LOVE that resolution to the whole issue with Isaac's book, LMAO XD! I kind of want that book to be real now, 'cause i would read the shit out of that. It's even more hilarious given Brandon Scott Jones' role in Renfield - I wonder if that was a nod to that a bit :D? 

And of course Sam and Jay's efforts with the journal would backfire. You'd think they'd have learned from trying to do that with Pete's scout book to get one over on Carol :p. 

(Also love how Sam just naturally spills her "how I wound up seeing ghosts" story to anyone when possible now. Even people she mistakes for ghosts :p.)

Funny though the book idea is, I do love Sasappis coming to the rescue to help Isaac. And I loved him and Jay both highlighting how he can relate his story and his life to vampires, that was genuinely sweet. Even if Isaac's main takeaway was wanting to drain Hamilton's blood :p. 

But yeah. That was a fun story. 

Also loved everything with the ghost snail, from the ghosts arguing over it to Thor's desire to want to eat it to Trevor ultimately connecting with it as he did. His guilt over feeling like he abandoned his dog legit broke my heart -awwwww. Trevor :(. Sweetie. That really fits for his character, too, given he's the one who still kinda struggles with this whole "being dead and a ghost" thing compared to all the others. 

LOL at the snail taking its good sweet time getting sucked off, though :p. 

This was cute. 

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phalange

phalange

Sam really needs to work on her ability to tell ghosts and livings apart. Fortunately it all worked out. A vampire revolutionary war soldier named Isaac Higgentooth is hilarious. And damn, Isaac sure was fixated on sandwiches, huh?

I love that Escarghost/Shelly the snail got sucked off before any of the human ghosts. Though, as Thor said, “Most animals go right up because heart so pure.” The snail taking hours to ascend was perfect. 

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shura

shura

(edited)

This was one well-written episode.  The snail ascending oh-so-slowly?  Beautiful, that”s how you do it - you point to something, don’t spell it out, and just let the viewer get it.  The “THNTC8R” putting on a dirty coat, backwards, for no apparent reason, after having Sam mistake a living for a ghost earlier in the episode?  As soon as he walked into the kitchen full of all those basements ghosts onto Sam and Jay forging the diary - fireworks, you get it before it happens.  Very well done, bravo.

Wait a minute.  If they are still talking about whether the book is going to be published or not, where and for what did they get the 10 K that made Isaac rich?

Edited by shura
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PaulE

PaulE

34 minutes ago, shura said:

Wait a minute.  If they are still talking about whether the book is going to be published or not, where and for what did they get the 10 K that made Isaac rich?

Yeah, I wondered about that, too. Ordinarily I'd assume it was an advance on royalties, but that happens only after the manuscript has definitely been accepted and the contract drawn up and signed.  It's also strange that they were willing to accept Sam's manuscript even though she has no academic background, yet they went through all that trouble to authenticate sources, which even scholarly publishers such as university presses don't do.

Still annoyed that Isaac continues to take credit for the book.  Nope, it's Sam's, even if it's about him.

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Annber03

Annber03

53 minutes ago, phalange said:

A vampire revolutionary war soldier named Isaac Higgentooth is hilarious. And damn, Isaac sure was fixated on sandwiches, huh?

Isaac's bit at one point where he talks about being sandwiched between British soldiers, and Sasappis being like, "...and we're back on the sandwiches again."

I love hte journey Isaac's family name has taken throughout the last two plus centuries. First his parents were known as Higginbottom, then they changed it to HIggintoot, and now we've got Higgintooth :D! So much fun to be had with his last name, both fictional and non-fictional ;p. 

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DanaK

DanaK

(edited)
1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

(Though...if the publisher really only does supernatural YA fiction, why were they going to publish a nonfiction book about some unknown Revolutionary War soldier in the first place?)

At the beginning of the episode, the lady from the publishing company indicated she had to fight for the book so I guess she convinced them in spite of the book being out of their wheelhouse, which she indicated was usually trashy fiction novels, not necessarily just supernatural YA fiction

Edited by DanaK
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Skooma

Skooma

1 hour ago, shura said:

Wait a minute.  If they are still talking about whether the book is going to be published or not, where and for what did they get the 10 K that made Isaac rich?

Yeah I thought the book was published a long time ago.

But hey, huzzah for both Captain Higgintooth and sandwiches!  Also pure-hearted snails.

Really good episode and ALL the regular ghosts were finally present in this one too.  Even full attendance from the basement ghosts.  Wish Nigel could have been there for Isaac's story marathon though.

Question:  Why did the camera do a close-up on the guy's license plate "THNTC8R."

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ItCouldBeWorse

ItCouldBeWorse

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

And of course Sam and Jay's efforts with the journal would backfire. You'd think they'd have learned from trying to do that with Pete's scout book to get one over on Carol :p

So pessimistic! There's no possible way the authenticator would have suspected that barely dried modern ink on top of old paper wasn't identical to >200 year old ink faded with time along with the paper on which it was inscribed! With a dip pen that likely dripped. Also good to know that an amateur calligrapher can match anyone's handwriting, even an antiquated one. (I also kept reflecting on how spelling wasn't always uniform back then, how the Long s might have been used, etc.) That part of the story was very naive. 

 

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Bastet

Bastet

I was putting up Christmas decorations, so will have to re-watch tomorrow to pay proper attention, but I didn't much care about the book plot, but I liked the escarghost sections of the episode.  The snail, not Trevor, being sucked off was as blindingly obvious as the shaft of light, but I still enjoyed his "Last in, first out -- T-Money!" excitement giving way to realizing the snail was - very, very slowly - the one ascending.

He described the unconditional love of a pet very well, and his misplaced guilt at never coming home.  I figure his parents/brother gave the poor doggy a good second home for the rest of his life. 

Pete is frequently unbearable this season.  I really don't know what they're doing with him.

But LOL at Flower freaking out at the thought of Thor eating the snail and Trevor saying the guy has probably killed thousands of people but a snail is where she draws the line (and then, of course, she thanks him for properly stating her position).  If anyone had told me in the early episodes I would come to adore Trevor, I would never, ever have believed it.  But I do.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

3 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

the authenticator would have suspected that barely dried modern ink on top of old paper wasn't identical to >200 year old ink faded with time along with the paper on which it was inscribed

So were most viewers expecting the Authenticator to catch the modern ink, or just a few of us?

 

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

I was putting up Christmas decorations, so will have to re-watch tomorrow to pay proper attention, but I didn't much care about the book plot, but I liked the escarghost sections of the episode

I was watching on a large screen TV and got to see Escarghost’s antennae curl down when Trevor told the snail he was “a good boy” right before Escarghost was sucked up.

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Lisa418722

Lisa418722

The book plot was OK, but I preferred the Escarghost and Trevor talking about Bucky. I'm a dog lover and that commercial they show with a dog at the door and then it says something like, don't drink and drive. Your dog won't understand why you didn't come on. I couldn't help but think of that commercial when Trevor was talking about how happy Bucky was to see him come home.  I think the writers have let Trevor grow more than any of the other ghosts and I'm enjoying it. He was so young when he died and he's realizing what he missed out on.  Selfishly, I'm worried since Trevor is growing more he will end up getting sucked off.  

When Trevor wasn't sucked off immediately, I knew it had to be Escarghost.  I wonder how long it will take him to get up there.  

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Chit Chat

Chit Chat

7 hours ago, Bastet said:

Pete is frequently unbearable this season.  I really don't know what they're doing with him.

Hopefully there will be a redemption of his obnoxiousness by the end of the season!  I thought that his running commentary as an emcee of a wrestling match was pretty funny though.

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So were most viewers expecting the Authenticator to catch the modern ink, or just a few of us?

That was my first thought when they said they wanted to add to the diary.  Oh well, it's stuff like this that doesn't bother me.  I just roll with it!!  

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Annber03

Annber03

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

So were most viewers expecting the Authenticator to catch the modern ink, or just a few of us?

I thought we'd learn that he was going to be questionable in his own right or something, or be like a Creepy Todd sort :p. 

5 hours ago, possibilities said:

The jokes about Crosby and Stills were so random! Or was it Nash? Sometimes I'm as spacey as Flower.

You were right, it was Crosby and Stills :D. I loved her response when Trevor was trying to brush off interest in pets because you had to walk around and pick up their crap. "That was the same problem with David Crosby." 

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chaifan

chaifan

I thought the bit with the Authenticator was going to take a different turn, more on that below...

He put on the dirty smock because he'd be handling old dirty things.  But as soon as he put it on, I was all, oooh, he looks like a basement ghost...  

If animals get sucked off, then wouldn't there be constant shafts of light everywhere outside?  It was a cute plot line, and I love how they're developing Trevor, but there's no continuity to it and the show is pretty good about continuity.  I think someone on the writing staff just really wanted to work in "escarghost" to a script.  

I didn't enjoy the book plot.  Waaaayyy too many plot holes, even for a show about ghosts.  First, the "loose stone".  I thought he meant a stone in the wall, which would have made more sense.  There's no way a loose stepping stone 200 years ago would still be loose today, if even there in the first place.  And how could there not have been a ton of ghosts at that site???  Should have been teeming with them.  And, as others have mentioned, Jay forging the entries.  First, where is he writing all this?  In the margins around the entries about the sandwiches?  Or was there just a lot of blank pages at the end for a full manuscript?  Then the handwriting, ink, etc.  Not to mention ruining a historical journal.  Sorry, that was too much and it was distractingly stupid.  

Here's what I thought was going to happen...  Authenticator was going to arrive early, before Jay had a chance to write in the book.  Sam ends up telling him the ghost story, and... he believes her!  Maybe he can see ghosts, too (which would come in handy as an authenticator), or had a grandmother who could, or he's able to test her in some way.  But he believes her and fakes the authentication.  In the mean time, he looks at the (unadulterated) journal, and finds it is historically valuable.

I did love Isaac going into storyteller mode, everyone gathering around to hear it all (except the shed ghosts), as Isaac loves an audience and rarely gets one.

I do love how it ended up, with it being a historical fiction vampire novel.  And, yes, I was also thinking it was a nod to Renfield.  (Funny movie, despite my intense dislike of Nic Cage.  Watch it if you haven't.)  The upside is that in being fiction, Sam has the opportunity to make this into a book series and make more money.  I wonder if they'll go there.  It would give Sass something more to do.

 

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shura

shura

(edited)
10 hours ago, DanaK said:
12 hours ago, ams1001 said:

(Though...if the publisher really only does supernatural YA fiction, why were they going to publish a nonfiction book about some unknown Revolutionary War soldier in the first place?)

At the beginning of the episode, the lady from the publishing company indicated she had to fight for the book so I guess she convinced them in spite of the book being out of their wheelhouse, which she indicated was usually trashy fiction novels, not necessarily just supernatural YA fiction

She also made it sound like the authenticator was their own in-house person or at least someone they had an established working relationship with.  Can't publish Smitten and Bitten without authenticating sources, right?

Interesting how, when a person dies and becomes a ghost, there is a body left behind, but Escarghost did not have that.  I suppose it wouldn't make a great visual...

Also, Pete, Nikes on a reenactor are not necessarily a dead giveaway that he is a living.  Reenactors die too.

Quote

First, where is he writing all this?  In the margins around the entries about the sandwiches?  Or was there just a lot of blank pages at the end for a full manuscript?

Right?  There was a sandwich entry on April 4, 1775, then one four weeks later, and then Jay was trying to squeeze in Lexington and Concord (April 19) somewhere in between?

Edited by shura
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ams1001

ams1001

1 hour ago, Snow Apple said:

Is there a reason the expert was wearing that filthy cost other than for a sitcom joke? I would think he'd be wearing scrubs and white gloves or something like that.

I had the same thought. Pretty sure it was just so he would look like a basement ghost and Sam would not realize he was living. They would want to protect any legit historical documents and throwing on a filthy smock while still outside doesn't make sense.

1 hour ago, Annber03 said:

I thought we'd learn that he was going to be questionable in his own right or something, or be like a Creepy Todd sort :p. 

With his attitude when he was on the phone as he got out of the car, like he didn't really want to be there (he seemed annoyed), I thought he was just going to look briefly at the journal and not really read any of it, determine it was old enough, and call it a day.

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Skooma

Skooma

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Pete is frequently unbearable this season.  I really don't know what they're doing with him.

Yeah I wish we had sweet Pete again.  I thought he was being given a redemption arc but not so far.  Damn, I want sweet Pete back.  It was so cool to have a really nice guy in the mix no matter what.  Always the cheerful optimist.  I guess Flower has taken over that role now.

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ams1001

ams1001

(edited)
32 minutes ago, shura said:

Also, Pete, Nikes on a reenactor are not necessarily a dead giveaway that he is a living.  Reenactors die too.

The modern shoes actually make me more likely to think it was a reenactor who died because if he was working he would be wearing appropriate shoes for the costume. And you're at a historical site that does school tours, Sam; why would your first assumption be that someone in a historical costume must be dead and not just an employee?

Edited by ams1001
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Badsamaritan

Badsamaritan

I liked the episode well enough, I did laugh at several bits, but I am so so tired of Sam siding with the ghosts over Jay. I did not like the 'shotgun' bit at all. Pete is a fucking GHOST, Sam, he shouldn't get to ride in the front seat of a car that your husband is helping pay for! If I was Jay, I would've said they have to stop for fast food for him on the way, at the very least. And, then look how he tries to come through for Sam and the ghosts by helping forge the journal, even after getting relegated to the back seat. He can't even sneak and eat without the ghosts watching him and then telling on him. Jay deserves so much better than Sam and the ghosts and I will stand ten toes down on that. 😒

Alberta was really funny again with her observations. When Thor was talking about not eating/eating the snail, her follow-ups to his 'assurances' were hysterical. 

Nice callback for Hetty to washing machines, ever since Flower showed her the way back in S2 lol. 

Aw, Trevor. 😭

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

8 hours ago, Bastet said:

Pete is frequently unbearable this season.  I really don't know what they're doing with him.

Pete's obnoxious turn seems to be something the writers want us to notice, so…

1 hour ago, Chit Chat said:

Hopefully there will be a redemption of his obnoxiousness by the end of the season!  I thought that his running commentary as an emcee of a wrestling match was pretty funny though.

I too think there will be some denouement regarding Pete's personality change, currently demonstrated by his bitterness etc.
And/or, maybe after they decided to reveal Trevor's soft, fluffy interior, they looked around for another ghost character to pick up the obnoxious slack, and Pete, the obnoxiously good guy, seemed like the best character for that task on the sitcom?

 

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ams1001

ams1001

(edited)
58 minutes ago, Badsamaritan said:

He can't even sneak and eat without the ghosts watching him and then telling on him.

If he was smart, he'd eat at the restaurant and get rid of the evidence there. It's not like it takes more time than driving home and then eating in the car. And ghosts aside, he's more likely to get caught by Sam if he's sitting in the car right outside the house for several minutes to eat. As long as Pete doesn't decide to tag along without his knowledge.

Dammit, now I want fast food. (But not Sonic; I've never been there and the only one I know of is too far away.) At least I can eat it in my own house.

Edited by ams1001
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appositival

appositival

Did Escarghost have something to repent or does snail heaven just run very slowly?

Issac's book may have had some intrinsic value before they defaced it. I can't believe they learned nothing from defacing Pete's book.

Jay or the ghosts need a safety word for when Sam starts talking to someone living. They just let her make a fool of herself.

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chaifan

chaifan

1 hour ago, shura said:

Interesting how, when a person dies and becomes a ghost, there is a body left behind, but Escarghost did not have that.  I suppose it wouldn't make a great visual...

The snail was a ghost before Jay stepped on it.  Which is why he didn't see it, and why there was no smushed snail on the ground.  And that's how the ghosts figured out it was a snail ghost.  So it died somewhere else, and the snail ghost made it's way to where our ghosts saw it.  

 

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ams1001

ams1001

(edited)
14 minutes ago, ajsnaves said:

Did they say that Carol has been sucked off? It was when Escarghost was going up. When did that happen?

Trevor said something about being the last dead and first to go, but they were pointing out that Trevor is not actually the most recently dead.

I wonder if at some point one of them does get sucked off for real (maybe someone leaves the show for some reason) will we see what's on the other side..?

Edited by ams1001
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iMonrey

iMonrey

46 minutes ago, ajsnaves said:

Did they say that Carol has been sucked off? It was when Escarghost was going up. When did that happen?

I found that line confusing as well. They probably only meant that Carol, and not Trevor, was officially the "last in" (most recent ghost) but the framing of it did suggest maybe Carol got sucked off, which would explain why we've not seen nor heard about her all season.

12 hours ago, DanaK said:

At the beginning of the episode, the lady from the publishing company indicated she had to fight for the book so I guess she convinced them in spite of the book being out of their wheelhouse, which she indicated was usually trashy fiction novels, not necessarily just supernatural YA fiction

Yes, she seemed keen to publish something serious for a change.

Realistically (I know, I know) I'm not sure how much Isaac would really know about vampires. While the lore did exist during his time it was not popularized until Bram Stoker published Dracula in 1897. 

13 hours ago, PaulE said:

Still annoyed that Isaac continues to take credit for the book.  Nope, it's Sam's, even if it's about him.

It's almost entirely Isaac's work. It's his autobiography, as dictated by him to Sam. She wrote it down, but she just basically typed whatever he said. She may have done some editing here and there but yeah, it wouldn't exist without Isaac.

12 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

That part of the story was very naive. 

Sam and Jay are, themselves, quite naive. So I didn't find that part of the story out of character for them. Yes, my first thought was that the authenticator would surely be able to tell the ink was new, but I also believed Sam and Jay wouldn't necessarily think about that.

I'm uncomfortable thinking about what might have happened to Trevor's dog. We don't know how long it took for someone to notice he was missing, since his co-workers wouldn't have reported it, in all probability. I kind of wish Trevor had clarified he left the dog with his parents or someone during that weekend.

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PaulE

PaulE

11 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

There's no possible way the authenticator would have suspected that barely dried modern ink on top of old paper wasn't identical to >200 year old ink faded with time along with the paper on which it was inscribed! With a dip pen that likely dripped. Also good to know that an amateur calligrapher can match anyone's handwriting, even an antiquated one. (I also kept reflecting on how spelling wasn't always uniform back then, how the Long s might have been used, etc.) That part of the story was very naive. 

I have to admit, I can overlook a lot of things for the sake of a story line, but sometimes, as in this case, it can get a little too much.  One of the things an authenticator would do is examine the ink with certain types of lab equipment to determine chemical composition.  In the eighteenth century iron gall ink was used (and by the time Sam and Jay unearthed the diary, the black ink would have oxidized to brown), so it would have been different from the ink Jay was using, not just in appearance but in substance.  Also, back then they mainly still used quills to write with; I think steel-nibbed dip pens came into general use only in the nineteenth century.  If you've ever seen eighteenth-century writing, it has a sort of thin, spidery quality that you really only get with a quill, which is so fragile you can't exert too much pressure, so even if Jay were able to imitate Isaac's handwriting exactly, he probably couldn't duplicate that same effect with a calligraphy pen.  So, yeah, that part of the story was a bit of a stretch even for viewers willing to make allowances.

For me, there was a poignancy about this whole diary thing because it showed once again how Isaac lives in his own fictional universe.  Think about it:  he's in the middle of combat surrounded by great men such as Washington, but all he writes about is sandwiches.  He can't even keep a worthwhile diary!  Yet he actually believed it (like himself) was more substantial and important than it was.  It must have been awfully embarrassing for that to be revealed to everyone (at least, it would be if it were me).  It makes you wonder how much of the war experiences he related to Sam are actually true.  The poor guy, annoying though he can be, never gets a break, does he?  I'm beginning to believe that the only substantial thing he ever truly did was crap himself to death, and even in that he was only one of thousands who died the same way.

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ams1001

ams1001

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I'm uncomfortable thinking about what might have happened to Trevor's dog. We don't know how long it took for someone to notice he was missing, since his co-workers wouldn't have reported it, in all probability. I kind of wish Trevor had clarified he left the dog with his parents or someone during that weekend.

I'm going to assume if he was planning to be away overnight someone was watching the dog.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

2 hours ago, appositival said:

Issac's book may have had some intrinsic value before they defaced it.

That too! I worked with library archives quite a bit, and am obsessed with choosing archival materials for my art work. I even cringe at some of the Mona Lisa-with-mustache type of works. So this episode was too triggering for me to laugh. 
Still, the writing was consistent, and I respect that.
Sam and Jay were just clueless about archival documents. It doesn't entirely fit with their backgrounds and experiences. But it fits within the context of the comedy genre.

 

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shura

shura

2 hours ago, chaifan said:

The snail was a ghost before Jay stepped on it.  Which is why he didn't see it, and why there was no smushed snail on the ground.  And that's how the ghosts figured out it was a snail ghost.  So it died somewhere else, and the snail ghost made it's way to where our ghosts saw it.  

You are right, of course.  The ghosts look like their dead bodies, Escarghost would have looked like Flat Maria if he had died by Jay’s foot.

1 hour ago, PaulE said:

I'm beginning to believe that the only substantial thing he ever truly did was crap himself to death, and even in that he was only one of thousands who died the same way.

Has this not been the general assumption all along?  He was just… there, that’s all, wasn’t he?  Have we seen anything to suggest that Isaac had been a figure of any actual significance?  I had to chuckle when he dictated “as I lay there dying, I only wished that I had washed my hands”.  Yeah, that would totally be the line a dying person would spend his last breath to write in his diary.  I liked the cholera ghosts’ reaction though. “Relatable!”

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