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S24.E06 Time Will Tell

Xeliou66

By Xeliou66
in Law & Order

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Raja

Raja

Wow this will show in binged syndication. in  back to back episodes a 13 year old Black kid is an adult and an 18 year old White kid is still a child to suppress a confession.

Of course Baxter and Price went to prep schools while Ms Maroun went to P.S. the Bronx. While Mr. Price was making his case it seemed like the defense attorney making a case for leniency, then mama plan B's (from The Practice) the case.

A conviction integrity unit will have a field day with the New York DA's office after this. And what is the same judge doing handling mama's case as the daughter's?

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txhorns79

txhorns79

24 minutes ago, Raja said:

A conviction integrity unit will have a field day with the New York DA's office after this.

Would they?  It's very hard to re-open a claim where the person voluntarily pled guilty and allocuted.  You typically need good cause.  You have to have a very good argument for the Judge as to why your prior testimony, given under oath, about killing the victim should be set aside and your plea withdrawn.  You also need the cooperation of the defendant, and I doubt this one would agree to anything that could potentially lead to her daughter being jailed.   

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Xeliou66

Xeliou66

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This was pretty good, it was an interesting case. Not the first time they’ve dealt with the vicious circle of private schools and the effect the pressure of them has on everyone involved - it was an interesting case. In the end they couldn’t prove who committed the murder - most likely the daughter did but both could claim they were confessing to protect the other - not the first time we’ve seen a parent take the wrap for something their child did - I’m reminded of the season 10 episode Panic where the dad pled guilty to a crime his daughter most likely did but there was no legal proof either way, just like here. Baxter was right that they had to accept the mom’s confession - if she wanted to fall on her sword they had no choice here but to accept that since there was no evidence. Not easy to swallow but it’s what it was.

I cannot stand Lt Brady - she should’ve known better than to lie to an 18 year old clearly under immense stress and basically having a panic attack - I may get backlash for this but the judge for once was right to suppress the confession - it felt coerced, she would’ve said anything to get out of the situation and Brady took advantage of that. I haven’t liked Brady at all so far and tonight soured me on her even more. I really hope they find a way to salvage the character or they ditch her, because she’s not appealing to me. I enjoyed Riley/Shaw as always, and I liked their scene with Baxter - I always like when cops and DAs interact, makes me wish they had worked the likes of Adam Schiff and Arthur Branch into more scenes with detectives.

Speaking of Baxter - his scene with Price where they discussed the head of the school testifying was compelling - it’s clear that Price still has some suspicions about Baxter’s motives in some instances. Baxter had no agenda here, but I could see why Price thought otherwise given his friendship with the head of the school and I didn’t have a problem with him speaking his mind to Baxter about it, but Baxter was understandably not happy that Price still doesn’t have full confidence in his judgment. The Baxter/Price relationship is interesting and while they’ve come to respect each other they still have some trust issues, particularly on Price’s side - he had complete trust in Jack McCoy and is still figuring Baxter out.

This was pretty good overall - some familiar themes handled pretty well. But Brady isn’t working for me. 

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txhorns79

txhorns79

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

This was pretty good overall - some familiar themes handled pretty well. But Brady isn’t working for me. 

I don't mind her.  I do notice that she is a bigger presence on the police side of the show than Dixon and Van Buren typically were.  

 

8 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

I cannot stand Lt Brady - she should’ve known better than to lie to an 18 year old clearly under immense stress and basically having a panic attack - I may get backlash for this but the judge for once was right to suppress the confession - it felt coerced, she would’ve said anything to get out of the situation and Brady took advantage of that.

I mean, it's an interrogation in a case where the police think you murdered someone.  It's going to be a high stress situation regardless.  I thought Brady made a mistake in telling the girl she could go home, but it was a situation that could go either way.  I believe she did ask the girl if she wanted a break during the interrogation and the girl refused.

dubbel zout

dubbel zout

11 hours ago, Raja said:

Of course Baxter and Price went to prep schools while Ms Maroun went to P.S. the Bronx.

Queens, but your point remains.

I like Brady, but I also feel she's put into scenes she doesn't need to be in. I don't care at all about her former-junkie son, though. 

As for the case, for me it's the weakest in a season of pretty weak cases. Of course the confession gets thrown out; of course the mother confesses on the stand. Shouldn't Nolan have gotten some sort of continuance, even if it wasn't going to be the three months he said he would need?

According to his Wiki page, Dick Wolf went to Phillips Academy and the University of Pennsylvania, so his disdain for elite education seems counterintuitive. Was he badly hazed at both places or something?

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paigow

paigow

(edited)
18 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

According to his Wiki page, Dick Wolf went to Phillips Academy and the University of Pennsylvania, so his disdain for elite education seems counterintuitive. Was he badly hazed at both places or something?

Is the movie School Ties based on a true story?

The movie was rumored to be reportedly based on the personal experiences of writer and television producer Dick Wolf, however, in a 2003 interview, Wolf stated that the story was not autobiographical, but had themes that were important to him.

In 1959, a star quarterback from a working-class family is given an opportunity to attend an elite New England preparatory school, but he is conflicted about whether or not to tell his Evangelical classmates that he is Jewish.

Edited by paigow
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txhorns79

txhorns79

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

 

According to his Wiki page, Dick Wolf went to Phillips Academy and the University of Pennsylvania, so his disdain for elite education seems counterintuitive. Was he badly hazed at both places or something?

It's not like Dick Wolf is writing these episodes himself.  I presume elite private schools are a well that has been gone to a number of times because they show up in the news every now and then for acting badly or doing something crazy sounding.  Also, just the general drama inherent in those schools with wealthy, demanding parents, stressed out students and all the pressure on the staff.     

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buckboard

buckboard

It wasn't clear to me why a Dean who obviously cared about her students, wouldn't have given the high anxiety girl an opportunity to have extra time.  It's not as if her getting extra time meant that another student couldn't also get extra time.  Just because she wasn't richand couldn't bribe the school didn't mean the school would stop her from getting extra time.  The girl;s high stress must have been obvious to her teachers.

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marc20

marc20

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

This was pretty good, it was an interesting case. Not the first time they’ve dealt with the vicious circle of private schools and the effect the pressure of them has on everyone involved - it was an interesting case. In the end they couldn’t prove who committed the murder - most likely the daughter did but both could claim they were confessing to protect the other - not the first time we’ve seen a parent take the wrap for something their child did - I’m reminded of the season 10 episode Panic where the dad pled guilty to a crime his daughter most likely did but there was no legal proof either way, just like here. Baxter was right that they had to accept the mom’s confession - if she wanted to fall on her sword they had no choice here but to accept that since there was no evidence. Not easy to swallow but it’s what it was.

I cannot stand Lt Brady - she should’ve known better than to lie to an 18 year old clearly under immense stress and basically having a panic attack - I may get backlash for this but the judge for once was right to suppress the confession - it felt coerced, she would’ve said anything to get out of the situation and Brady took advantage of that. I haven’t liked Brady at all so far and tonight soured me on her even more. I really hope they find a way to salvage the character or they ditch her, because she’s not appealing to me. I enjoyed Riley/Shaw as always, and I liked their scene with Baxter - I always like when cops and DAs interact, makes me wish they had worked the likes of Adam Schiff and Arthur Branch into more scenes with detectives.

Speaking of Baxter - his scene with Price where they discussed the head of the school testifying was compelling - it’s clear that Price still has some suspicions about Baxter’s motives in some instances. Baxter had no agenda here, but I could see why Price thought otherwise given his friendship with the head of the school and I didn’t have a problem with him speaking his mind to Baxter about it, but Baxter was understandably not happy that Price still doesn’t have full confidence in his judgment. The Baxter/Price relationship is interesting and while they’ve come to respect each other they still have some trust issues, particularly on Price’s side - he had complete trust in Jack McCoy and is still figuring Baxter out.

This was pretty good overall - some familiar themes handled pretty well. But Brady isn’t working for me. 

don't like Brady either...double disappointing to me because I was happy Dixon left...neither are in Kragen or Van Buren territory...the fact that those two held down the role so well for twenty years is a bit overlooked in my mind

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Raja

Raja

29 minutes ago, buckboard said:

It wasn't clear to me why a Dean who obviously cared about her students, wouldn't have given the high anxiety girl an opportunity to have extra time.  It's not as if her getting extra time meant that another student couldn't also get extra time.  Just because she wasn't richand couldn't bribe the school didn't mean the school would stop her from getting extra time.  The girl;s high stress must have been obvious to her teachers.

If everyone gets extra time then it's not extra. And then paying clients stop paying for what's free.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

Nobody was concerned that the killer would kill again the next time she was stressed???

 

11 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I thought Brady made a mistake in telling the girl she could go home, but it was a situation that could go either way. 

I kept flashing back to stories I've read about the Central Park 5. Didn't at least one of them confess after 12-16 hours of interrogation with limited-to-no bathroom breaks, after being told they could go home if they confessed? 
Not a comparable situation at all, but maybe that was the point?
 

 

 

6 hours ago, buckboard said:

It wasn't clear to me why a Dean who obviously cared about her students, wouldn't have given the high anxiety girl an opportunity to have extra time.  It's not as if her getting extra time meant that another student couldn't also get extra time.  Just because she wasn't richand couldn't bribe the school didn't mean the school would stop her from getting extra time.  The girl;s high stress must have been obvious to her teachers.

The Dean was stressed by the higher numbers of rich parents gaming the system, so I guess she figured the poor students and their parents wouldn't push back??
— which doesn't seem to go along with her caring attitude towards the students, but, she was stressed…
— but the poorer students also have more to lose; the rich ones can probably pull other strings to get in, or even pay someone to take the test or change the scores, or even just buy a new wing for the college or sink a butt load of money into the college's endowment.

 

BTW, in a private college lots of students got extra time for all sorts of tests. The main problem was finding proctors for those students. 

I also worked in a college prep high school, but don't recall it being an issue. Maybe because that was in the 90s?

 

6 hours ago, marc20 said:

don't like Brady either...double disappointing to me because I was happy Dixon left...neither are in Kragen or Van Buren territory...the fact that those two held down the role so well for twenty years is a bit overlooked in my mind

True, but, just to clarify, you mean the writing for the Lts has changed, right?

Edited by shapeshifter
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blackwing

blackwing

I thought this was an interesting episode.  I knew the mom was going to claim she did it.  There was an episode on this show or maybe L.A. Law long ago where I think one spouse gets immunity in exchange for testifying against the other, and then confessed to the murder.  So this reminded me of that episode.   Only the mom didn’t get immunity here.

What does the mom think she is going to accomplish?  Now she is in prison.  Her 18 year old daughter is a senior in high school and now not only does she still have to contend with the rigors of school but now she doesn’t have a mom.  It doesn’t appear there is a dad or any other relatives.  Not to mention that the school will probably expel her, either she or her mom killed the Dean.  And no college is ever going to accept her now, once they learn of her story.  The kid’s life is ruined, even though she isn’t the one in prison.  
 

I have not been a fan of Brady.  We don’t exactly know why she is so tough on her son Leo (sounds like he is a musician and possibly dropped out of school and maybe she disapproved).  But it was nice to see that the case of this mom willing to lie and go to prison for her daughter made Brady cherish her own son and make an attempt to reconnect. 
 

8 hours ago, cfinboston said:

Did anyone else think it was insane to say you kept a field hockey stick in a backpack?

There are special backpacks specifically for tennis racquets.  The handles stick up out of a hole.  So I could see that there might be special backpacks for field hockey sticks. 

4 hours ago, shapeshifter said:


BTW, in a private college lots of students got extra time for all sorts of tests. The main problem was finding proctors for those students. 

I also worked in a college prep high school, but don't recall it being an issue. Maybe because that was in the 90s?

Back in the day when students still hand wrote exams in bluebooks, a classmate of mine got her uncle who was a doctor to write a fake note saying she had carpal tunnel.  The school asked her to use a typewriter instead (which some students chose to do anyways). She refused because she said she wasn’t a good typist.  So she got double the time.  And used a typewriter anyways.  All of our classmates thought it was BS but the school didn’t challenge it.

But this was a time when I don’t think there were as many accommodation requests.  I wonder what it’s like now, is what was depicted on this episode accurate?

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

have not been a fan of Brady.  We don’t exactly know why she is so tough on her son Leo (sounds like he is a musician and possibly dropped out of school and maybe she disapproved).

In the conversation with the other son, he told her Leo had been clean for 3 months. So the implication is that Leo is an addict and that Mom has been repeatedly sucked into enabling him, and was not going to fall for that con again.

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marc20

marc20

(edited)
13 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Nobody was concerned that the killer would kill again the next time she was stressed???

 

I kept flashing back to stories I've read about the Central Park 5. Didn't at least one of them confess after 12-16 hours of interrogation with limited-to-no bathroom breaks, after being told they could go home if they confessed? 
Not a comparable situation at all, but maybe that was the point?
 

 

 

The Dean was stressed by the higher numbers of rich parents gaming the system, so I guess she figured the poor students and their parents wouldn't push back??
— which doesn't seem to go along with her caring attitude towards the students, but, she was stressed…
— but the poorer students also have more to lose; the rich ones can probably pull other strings to get in, or even pay someone to take the test or change the scores, or even just buy a new wing for the college or sink a butt load of money into the college's endowment.

 

BTW, in a private college lots of students got extra time for all sorts of tests. The main problem was finding proctors for those students. 

I also worked in a college prep high school, but don't recall it being an issue. Maybe because that was in the 90s?

 

True, but, just to clarify, you mean the writing for the Lts has changed, right?

well, the writing for the whole reboot is not as good....but in addition, Kragen and Van Buren had charm and a sense of humor, just more engaging personalities...the humor element is pretty much gone from the entire show, I mentioned that in another discussion thread...Kragen and Van Buren just seemed like fully drawn characters, as much as L&O allows for that at least...these first two of the reboot don't inspire me to look forward to their scenes...the only combination I like, and I know I'm not the only one, are the detectives

Edited by marc20
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FozzyBear

FozzyBear

I think this is my least favorite episode. After a big improvement from last season this seemed to fall back into the trap of being sort of ridiculous and sort of boring. Lots of interesting threads were introduced and then dropped without making anything of them. Why was the girls accommodation denied ? What exactly was the school so nervous about? Students maybe exaggerating learning disabilities to get test time is hardly a new idea or very earth shattering. I doubt it would impact the school. And finally, people make false confessions all the time. The police know this. The job (theoretically) isn’t to put somebody in jail it’s to arrest the right person.

One more thing. That was the oldest looking 18 year old ever. The actresses playing mother and daughter looked maybe 10 years apart in age.

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ShellsandCheese

ShellsandCheese

(edited)
On 11/8/2024 at 1:28 PM, buckboard said:

It wasn't clear to me why a Dean who obviously cared about her students, wouldn't have given the high anxiety girl an opportunity to have extra time.  It's not as if her getting extra time meant that another student couldn't also get extra time.  Just because she wasn't richand couldn't bribe the school didn't mean the school would stop her from getting extra time.  The girl;s high stress must have been obvious to her teachers.

I don’t think any of them should get extra time. It’s ridiculous. It’s all about gaming the system. 

If you legitimately have anxiety soooo bad that you need extra time on an exam, how you going to manage in college? Or in the workplace? You’re not going to be able to compete at a high level anywhere. Like I wouldn’t want a surgeon to make it through school with extra time due to anxiety - and then get so anxious in the operating room that someone dies. 

So either you need to learn how to manage your anxiety OR need to remove yourself from anxiety inducing high stress environments. Emily, if she got into a top college, would have failed miserably because of her anxiety. 

And while the mom was trying to save her daughter, does she really think her daughter is going to fare well with her “severe” issues and a mother in prison. 

Edited by ShellsandCheese
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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)
11 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

…And while the mom was trying to save her daughter, does she really think her daughter is going to fare well with her “severe” issues and a mother in prison. 

Yes, the mother's final act of sacrificing herself served to illustrate her well-meaning but miss-guided parenting style.

Edited by shapeshifter
Typo
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ML89

ML89

So the school chief goes into court and says half the parents are cheating for extra time. Was he quitting the next day?

27 minutes ago, Sake614 said:

How can she play field hockey?

Excellent point. 

 

2 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

If you legitimately have anxiety soooo bad that you need extra time on an exam, how you going to manage in college?

My thought exactly. Plus she really believed the “you get to go home”? I would dearly love one time for someone to say “i watch a lot of cop shows so yeah I know all your tricks.”

I like shady Baxter but that was such a huge conflict.

 

On 11/8/2024 at 12:00 AM, Raja said:

Wow this will show in binged syndication. in  back to back episodes a 13 year old Black kid is an adult and an 18 year old White kid is still a child to suppress a confession

Excellent point too.

 

On 11/8/2024 at 12:51 AM, Xeliou66 said:

I cannot stand Lt Brady - she should’ve known better than to lie to an 18 year old clearly under immense stress and basically having a panic attack - I may get backlash for this but the judge for once was right to suppress the confession - it felt coerced, she would’ve said anything to get out of the situation and Brady took advantage of that. I haven’t liked Brady at all so far and tonight soured me on her even more.

I disliked her more as Abby on ER but Brady is coming up fast on the outside…

Again with scholarship kid at elite prep school goes wild - that’s such a favorite L&O trope. 

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MediaZone4K

MediaZone4K

(edited)
On 11/8/2024 at 2:43 PM, marc20 said:

don't like Brady either...double disappointing to me because I was happy Dixon left...neither are in Kragen or Van Buren territory...the fact that those two held down the role so well for twenty years is a bit overlooked in my mind

 

13 hours ago, marc20 said:

well, the writing for the whole reboot is not as good....but in addition, Kragen and Van Buren had charm and a sense of humor, just more engaging personalities...the humor element is pretty much gone from the entire show, I mentioned that in another discussion thread...Kragen and Van Buren just seemed like fully drawn characters, as much as L&O allows for that at least...these first two of the reboot don't inspire me to look forward to their scenes...the only combination I like, and I know I'm not the only one, are the detectives

The only characters I've liked in the reboot are Shaw and Jack McCoy. I did not enjoy the previous Captain, the ADAs and the revolving door of detectives.

Give Shaw a solid partner, perhaps an old man to recreate the Biscoe and Green dynamic (I know that was tried with Dennis Farina). Get a good captain. Someone like CCH Pounder who reminds me alot of S Epetha. And get a solid pair of ADAs. 

The early days of Law & Order felt like a hard boiled (somewhat) realist crime drama. These days Law and Order feels like an after school special.

Edited by MediaZone4K
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Xeliou66

Xeliou66

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The characters are not a weakness on modern L&O IMO - only 2 characters I’ve disliked are Brady and Maroun. Brady is the worst - nothing likable or compelling about her, just one note, abrasive and sour. The others are strong - I really enjoy Shaw and Riley, Baxter is a compelling new DA, Price is hit or miss but I’ve liked him more lately, Dixon was a good squad leader and while I disliked Cosgrove at the start he grew on me a lot.  
I think the characters are perfectly fine on the revival - the absolute worst thing they could do is try to recreate previous characters and dynamics - no one can match Briscoe/Green and their dynamic, no one can replace Anita, and no one can replace Jack - thankfully they haven’t tried to duplicate those - I’m really glad for example Baxter is very different from McCoy but still compelling, and they haven’t tried to make a detective a carbon copy of Lennie or a recreation of previous dynamics because it just wouldn’t work - it would feel lazy and it would be negatively compared to the original.

The weakest thing about this season of L&O has been the infusion of melodrama and personal crap into the episodes - it’s felt too much like SVU at times. The biggest weakness on the revival as a whole has been shaky legal writing - twists that make the DAs look inept, or flimsy rulings to hurt their case etc. I’ve found the legal writing a bit better lately actually. 
I agree that at times the show can feel like an “after school special” and it lacks the nuance of many episodes of the original run, but there were some episodes of the original run that were clunky and preachy as well.

I feel like the Mothership revival at times gets too much criticism just because it hasn’t had the magic and greatness of the original 20 year run, but it’s still a good show IMO and I’ve enjoyed more episodes of the revival than I’ve disliked. Maybe I’m biased because the Mothership has always been my favorite show and I love its formula and I’m glad to have it back, or maybe it’s just nice to have new L&O stuff that isn’t SVU - if you want to see after school special style preachy writing, lousy predictable cases, soapy melodrama etc, watch modern day SVU aka the Olivia Benson Hour.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

9 hours ago, ML89 said:

Again with scholarship kid at elite prep school goes wild - that’s such a favorite L&O trope

I can’t recall; have there been any L&O plots in which the scholarship kid at the elite college prep school is innocent or heroic or an innocent victim?
I think maybe 🤔 victim, but even then guilty of selling papers or taking rich dumb kids’ SATs for hire.
So, no, I can’t recall any blameless scholarship kids on L&O.

 

10 hours ago, Sake614 said:

If this girl suffers from such severe anxiety that she can’t take the test with her classmates and gets panic attacks in crowds, how was she sitting so quietly in the courtroom? Why didn’t the mother get medical help for her? How can she play field hockey? So many questions but no answers from the show.

The mom did sort of explain the field hockey when she testified that the daughter did better in open spaces.

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Xeliou66

Xeliou66

  • Author
8 minutes ago, paigow said:

Turning her into a rape victim was a bad plot decision...

The worst plot decision with Olivet was the revelation she slept with a patient (likely Mike Logan). That totally trashed Olivet’s character and made her look like a giant hypocrite, especially considering the season 3 episode where she was so adamant about how it was misconduct for a therapist to sleep with a patient. No idea why they did that. 

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

1 minute ago, Xeliou66 said:

The worst plot decision with Olivet was the revelation she slept with a patient (likely Mike Logan). That totally trashed Olivet’s character and made her look like a giant hypocrite, especially considering the season 3 episode where she was so adamant about how it was misconduct for a therapist to sleep with a patient. No idea why they did that. 

Back in Season 3, probably just for ratings and because they didn't know any better.

I'm not sure ratings are even an issue now for this show. 

marny

marny

This was incredibly stupid and just a way to highlight the Lt’s family issues that none of us care about. The defense could easily have just been that there wasn’t enough evidence to know whether mom or daughter killed the dean and so both of them walk free. I was a criminal defense attorney for 20 years and any defense attorney who passed the bar would not let the mom enter a plea when there was that much reasonable doubt as to both mom and daughter. Even if they each went to trial, the mom’s confession during daughter’s trial would cause doubt of the daughter’s guilt. And then when mom goes to trial, the defense can use the daughter’s confession to introduce doubt as to mom’s guilt (daughter’s confession wouldn’t be suppressed in mom’s case because neither the state or the mom have standing to suppress someone else’s confession). So, everyone gets acquitted  

So, all in all, this was just a ploy to make Maura Tierney feel bad about not loving her kid enough. So dumb. 
 

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

There was an episode of a show that had this scenario:

54 minutes ago, marny said:

The defense could easily have just been that there wasn’t enough evidence to know whether mom or daughter killed the dean and so both of them walk free.…any defense attorney…would not let the mom enter a plea when there was that much reasonable doubt as to both mom and daughter. Even if they each went to trial, the mom’s confession during daughter’s trial would cause doubt of the daughter’s guilt. And then when mom goes to trial, the defense can use the daughter’s confession to introduce doubt as to mom’s guilt…

Does anyone recall which one?
I also recall recently seeing the same bogus false-confession-of-family-member being accepted on another show I saw recently, but can't recall if the show and episode were in their first run, or if it was an old rerun.

Raja

Raja

33 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I also recall recently seeing the same bogus false-confession-of-family-member being accepted on another show I saw recently, but can't recall if the show and episode were in their first run, or if it was an old rerun.

The only other current criminal court shows that I can thing of are some  Special Victims Unit's  and The Lincoln Lawyer

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