S04.E01: Patience

[shura]

1 hour ago, Bastet said:

2 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

The reason I thought she might've been in the basement a few times is because she set it up with the basement ghosts to lure Isaac down there. 

I just double-checked the season three finale, and when she comes through the wall the basement ghosts trip out that "some lady" just came through the wall and Nancy straight up asks her "Who the hell are you?"  So she'd never been there before.

Nancy explained it in this episode when she confessed that the basement ghosts helped Prudence get Isaac.  On the day of the wedding, the music vibrations attracted Prudence to the house. She entered the basement for the first time and found the basement ghosts pissed at Isaac for not inviting them to his wedding. So when she asked to get him down there, they were happy to produce him for her. She went back to the dirt and then popped out again to surprise and grab him. So yes, technically two visits, but they were both on the same day.

Btw, do we know when the basement ghosts died?  I am thinking early to mid-1800s for some reason, but don’t know why I think that.  It’s just that if Prudence disappeared around 1890 and they were already there, shouldn’t they have met her and shouldn’t Nancy have recognized her then?  Or did they die after Hetty?  The property was an upscale estate by then, hard to imagine it becoming a place for a cholera pit.

[ams1001]

31 minutes ago, shura said:

Btw, do we know when the basement ghosts died?  I am thinking early to mid-1800s for some reason, but don’t know why I think that.  It’s just that if Prudence disappeared around 1890 and they were already there, shouldn’t they have met her and shouldn’t Nancy have recognized her then?  Or did they die after Hetty?  The property was an upscale estate by then, hard to imagine it becoming a place for a cholera pit.

The Ghosts fandom wiki says between 1832 and the 1870s. (I guess the house was supposed to have been built in the late 1800s, from what I can find, though the page for the manor doesn't specify a year.)

I just did a little googling of cholera in NY and found this: "Cholera was common in New York City in the 1830s, 1840s, and 1860s." Then I changed it to the Hudson Valley (I think that's where they're supposed to be?), and got "Cholera first appeared in the Hudson Valley during the 1832 cholera epidemic." Most of the links in the first search were about the NYC epidemic in 1832 so it seems that was the biggest outbreak. 

https://ghosts-bbc.fandom.com/wiki/Cholera_ghosts

Quote

History

They were all people that were infected with cholera and placed in a pest house. They were told that they would stay here to be treated only for to be locked inside and trapped. They either starved, died of the illness, suffocated, or a combination of the three and became ghosts trapped in the basement. They know very much about the heating system due to the mechanics that would work in the basement.

Death

Right after they died, they either were buried in a cemetery or disposed in a waste pond due to being in a pest house. They haunted the land and subsequent settlements alongside Sass, Thorfinn, and Isaac due to them being older ghosts until Woodstone Mansion was eventually constructed directly over their plague pit. The ghosts then remained in the cellar despite not being trapped down there as they were more comfortable together; they have no objection to the other dead which haunt the house but do not often interact with them.

(Those paragraphs contradict each other on the point of being trapped in the basement, but obviously they are not.)

[Skooma]

8 hours ago, Katy M said:

I didn't really enjoy last night's episode.  Patience annoys me and not looking foward to her as a new character.

I really like Patience.  Hetty has become "modern" in her thinking so we need an old timey ghost around to look daggers at what is happening in the 21st century.  I'm really digging (cough) her so far.

5 hours ago, shura said:

It’s just that if Prudence disappeared around 1890 and they were already there, shouldn’t they have met her and shouldn’t Nancy have recognized her then?  Or did they die after Hetty?  The property was an upscale estate by then, hard to imagine it becoming a place for a cholera pit.

Why do you think she disappeared in 1890?  Seems like it would have been more like 1790.  Issac was there for a few years with that time line.  But the cholera crowd and Hetty hadn't showed up yet.

[shura]

3 hours ago, Skooma said:

Why do you think she disappeared in 1890?  Seems like it would have been more like 1790.  Issac was there for a few years with that time line.  But the cholera crowd and Hetty hadn't showed up yet.

They said in this episode that they abandoned her in the dirt 130 years ago.  And in “Holes are Bad” (thank you, Annber03!) Isaac places the event in 1895, as it turns out.  The ghosts fell in the hole, Hetty was away, so nobody was around to see Elias build the vault. Then Hetty came back to find no trace of Elias, the ghosts decided to try to get out of the hole by going through the dirt, and by the time they lost Prudence and got out, Hetty was a ghost herself.

So the cholera ghosts should have overlapped with Prudence. I suppose they might have stayed in the basement for the most part and Prudence was not really sociable enough to visit, so they didn’t really know each other, just of each other, maybe. And Nancy was just startled to see her come out of the wall and didn’t immediately realize who that was.

[Chit Chat]

4 hours ago, Skooma said:

Hetty has become "modern" in her thinking so we need an old timey ghost around to look daggers at what is happening in the 21st century. 

Just wait until she watches TV for the first time and sees the debauchery that goes on with some reality TV, especially the one that Sass & Thor like.  Doesn't it have a bit of half-nakedness?  It will be interesting to see her reaction to current times.  I think she will be yelling 'Patience' a lot!  

[chaifan]

Was there any indication of how Prudence Patience died?  She looks pretty intact, but her clothing could hide a lot.  I'm guessing she left her village, and got lost & starved or something similar. 

Prudence Patience as an even more uptight Hetty will get boring quick.  But I don't want them to turn her into a party girl overnight, either. 

I wish Mark would bring his son back to the property, so we could see him see/interact with the ghosts again. 

 

Edited to correct our new character's name.  oops.

Edited October 19 by chaifan

[ams1001]

42 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Was there any indication of how Prudence died?  She looks pretty intact, but her clothing could hide a lot.  I'm guessing she left her village, and got lost & starved or something similar. 

Someone commented on her pale skin, and she seemed flattered and said it was because of the bloodletting that killed her.

[iMonrey]

5 hours ago, shura said:

So the cholera ghosts should have overlapped with Prudence.

I assume you mean Patience, but Patience would have died in the 1600s, whereas the cholera ghosts died in the 1800s. I get that she would have been around as a ghost when the cholera ghosts died but it doesn't mean they ever interacted, especially if the manor had not yet been built at the time. 

[Skooma]

3 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Someone commented on her pale skin, and she seemed flattered and said it was because of the bloodletting that killed her.

Yep.  That was what killed George Washington too as I recall.  Doctors of those days thought they sometimes had to let out "bad blood" to heal the person.

[ams1001]

27 minutes ago, Skooma said:

Yep.  That was what killed George Washington too as I recall.  Doctors of those days thought they sometimes had to let out "bad blood" to heal the person.

I did not know that about Washington! I just googled...bloodletting aside (four times in eight hours?!) his last medical treatment overall sounds horrifying. 

[DrSpaceman73]

5 hours ago, chaifan said:

Was there any indication of how Prudence died?  She looks pretty intact, but her clothing could hide a lot.  I'm guessing she left her village, and got lost & starved or something similar. 

Prudence as an even more uptight Hetty will get boring quick.  But I don't want them to turn her into a party girl overnight, either. 

I wish Mark would bring his son back to the property, so we could see him see/interact with the ghosts again. 

I don't see the two alike. 

Hetty is rich and snobby,  not religious

She wasn't rich , super pious. 

[Chit Chat]

26 minutes ago, Skooma said:

Doctors of those days thought they sometimes had to let out "bad blood" to heal the person.

Medicine has come a long way since then (thank goodness!)  In a hundred years though, people will look back on these times and probably think "what the hell?" with some of our current medical practices!  I feel that way about CPAP machines & masks for sleep apnea.  There has to be a better way than that!!  There is the Inspire implant, but it hasn't been out there long enough for me to consider it the standard of care just yet.  

Anyway, bloodletting sounds horrible!  I guess they went straight into anemia.  Yikes!

[DrSpaceman73]

Just now, Chit Chat said:

Medicine has come a long way since then (thank goodness!)  In a hundred years though, people will look back on these times and probably think "what the hell?" with some of our current medical practices!  I feel that way about CPAP machines & masks for sleep apnea.  There has to be a better way than that!!  There is the Inspire implant, but it hasn't been out there long enough for me to consider it the standard of care just yet.  

Anyway, bloodletting sounds horrible!  I guess they went straight into anemia.  Yikes!

There are worse medical treatments than cpap.  In fact cpa is almost ideal in many ways.  Almost no risk and works without medication. 

Our use of pain meds will be what's considered primitive.probably also chemotherapy for cancer. 

But private message me if you have questions about inspire.  

[chaifan]

22 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I don't see the two alike. 

Hetty is rich and snobby,  not religious

She wasn't rich , super pious. 

You're right, different backgrounds, but both rather uptight.

[Browncoat]

In the future, the doctor will be able to give you a pill and you'll grow a new kidney (Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home).

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

There are worse medical treatments than cpap.  In fact cpa is almost ideal in many ways.  Almost no risk and works without medication. 

Yes, it has its advantages and is a great advancement in the treatment of sleep apnea, but the mask & hose is a bit cumbersome.  I've had a lot of my dental patients over the years complain about it and many are not able to get used to the setup.  I want to rip mine off and throw it across the room almost every night!  On the bright side, it's not that bad, and if that's all I have to complain about, then I'm doing just fine.  :) 

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Our use of pain meds will be what's considered primitive.probably also chemotherapy for cancer. 

Yes, I'd like to think that someday in the near future we will look back at the treatment for cancer and see how primitive it was.   Same for Type 1 diabetes. 

[Chit Chat]

14 hours ago, Skooma said:

But the cholera crowd and Hetty hadn't showed up yet.

Speaking of cholera, those basements ghosts are hard to look at!  Nancy is hilarious though.  She was married to the village idiot!  I wouldn't mind hearing more about that!

[Bastet]

7 minutes ago, Chit Chat said:

Nancy is hilarious though.

A little Nancy goes a long way, but I love the way she says Stuart's name whenever she's insulting him (which is every time they speak, which entertains me).  And I, too, liked learning she was married to the village idiot (yet Stuart is still the stupidest person she's ever met).

[Johannah]

On 10/18/2024 at 2:01 PM, Maelstrom said:

IIRC the photo of Sam and Jay and the teacup are always there every season, I think. Chit Chat covered everything except for the painting on the wall behind the desk was a landscape, possibly of the Hudson Valley I'm guessing? (last season it was Hetty's "scandalous" portrait). There was a small white object to left of the stack of books but I couldn't make out what it was despite multiple freeze frames. 🤷🏻‍♀️

I thought the fossil might just be a rock - like a moon rock.  I can see someone (Jay and/or Pete) getting excited about that.  Also French fries.  The thing on the left is definitely vampire teeth.  I think everything else was mentioned.

[Skooma]

9 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I don't see the two alike. 

Hetty is rich and snobby,  not religious

She wasn't rich , super pious. 

I think how they are alike is for example, Hetty was originally upset at the way modern women dressed.  And I'm sure Patience will be too.

Originally Hetty also thought women shouldn't go to college and certainly shouldn't vote. (The "vapors" would be too much don't you know).  I'm sure Patience will have somewhat similar views.

Hetty has changed regards the above so there is nobody around to bring the criticism of 21st century life ... until Patience.  And we need that on the show I believe.

I mean the original English version of the Hetty character (Fanny) never totally got over how women in the 21st century acted.  She came to like the English version of Sam (Allison) but she remained somewhat fussy at times about her attire or some "unlady" like actions etc.

And that was smart to keep I think.  You can't have all the characters in the show with totally identical viewpoints.

Speaking of the original show I wonder if Patience will be like the UK's "Mary."  Basically the same time frame.  Just one little detail different.  Mary was wrongfully burned at the stake as a witch (not a spoiler, it's mentioned in like the first 10 minutes of the show) whereas Patience would be more likely to do the burning then to be the burned, lol.

Edited October 20 by Skooma

[Neptune]

Alberta wishing flower was still her roommate 

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, Neptune said:

Alberta wishing flower was still her roommate 

LOL, I commented on that elsewhere ,too. Here she was, all gleeful at the idea of Hetty having Flower as her rommate for a change, and now she's probably thinking, "...damnit.." :p. 

I do love the idea of them sharing a room, though, and I'd love to see more of how that plays out for however long Patience stays in the house. 

[shapeshifter]

17 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Medicine has come a long way since then (thank goodness!)  In a hundred years though, people will look back on these times and probably think "what the hell?" with some of our current medical practices!  I feel that way about CPAP machines & masks for sleep apnea.  There has to be a better way than that!!  There is the Inspire implant, but it hasn't been out there long enough for me to consider it the standard of care just yet.  

Anyway, bloodletting sounds horrible!  I guess they went straight into anemia.  Yikes!

@Chit Chat, I've been struggling with CPAP for 4 months now. If you want to post about it on the general Health and Wellness thread, I'll see it. Or I/we could start a separate CPAP thread too. Mostly I've been getting info from Reddit (and my health care providers).

Back to Ghosts:
I just went down the historical/anthropological/biological rabbit hole on Whatever Happened to George Washington, with the main takeaway regarding our fictional Patience's demise — who I'm guessing is the temporary guest star for the season? — is that when Washington died December 14, 1799 (aged 67) the youngest of his attending physicians was against further bloodletting and proposed what would today be a likely life-saving procedure of tracheostomy, but for which they didn't yet have adequate equipment or even expertise (wikipedia; scholar.google.com).

Google says Puritanism was over by 1740, so it's interesting that Patience knows that bloodletting killed her. Maybe Patience and Hetty will find they share some feminist opinions, with Patience having been ahead of her time. It was established that she was different from the rest of her community.

[iMonrey]

16 hours ago, Chit Chat said:

Speaking of cholera, those basements ghosts are hard to look at! 

I think it's kind of amazing that some of the actors playing them have been around since the pilot. It makes me wonder if they are connected to the show somehow, like maybe stagehands or production people or related to someone. They appear so infrequently it's interesting the show has managed to keep them.

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe Patience and Hetty will find they share some feminist opinions, with Patience having been ahead of her time. It was established that she was different from the rest of her community.

Yeah . . . she was worse! She wanted to kill a 5-year old because she was talking to her doll.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe Patience and Hetty will find they share some feminist opinions, with Patience having been ahead of her time. It was established that she was different from the rest of her community.

30 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah . . . she was worse! She wanted to kill a 5-year old because she was talking to her doll.

Oh. Right. Must've blocked that out of my long-term memory.
So Patience would have to learn about feminism from Hetty; not the other way around.

 

[Skooma]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I think it's kind of amazing that some of the actors playing them have been around since the pilot. It makes me wonder if they are connected to the show somehow, like maybe stagehands or production people or related to someone. They appear so infrequently it's interesting the show has managed to keep them.

SAG rules are for Canada as well as the US so no.  They have to be SAG.

There are about a zillion wannabe actors out there and only a handful of jobs.  No problem keeping them if you ask me.  Especially if they are local theatre and/or Canadian TV actors living around the Montreal area or even over in Toronto where a lot of the American shows set in big US cities over the years are/were actually shot.

Edited October 20 by Skooma

[Ilovepie]

I hope Patience settles into the kind of character Mary was on the British version - very religious and suspicious of modern ways. The crazy "Patience! Patience! Patience!" is annoying......

Can someone remind me of what happened to Pete's wife? Is she still around somewhere or was she sucked off?

I love the bromance between Pete and Jay -  "My Guy!" 

[Skooma]

3 hours ago, Ilovepie said:

I hope Patience settles into the kind of character Mary was on the British version - very religious and suspicious of modern ways. The crazy "Patience! Patience! Patience!" is annoying......

Can someone remind me of what happened to Pete's wife? Is she still around somewhere or was she sucked off?

I love the bromance between Pete and Jay -  "My Guy!" 

Yeah I hope she turns into the reverso (the burner, not the burned) Mary.  That would be an interesting character to have around.

One difference between them though was Mary was suspicious of modern ways because she was uneducated and very superstitious.  She wasn't a fundamentalist type of religious zealot like Patience.  Just a rather sweet but very naive peasant.

As for Pete's wife, she settled in with the "straight" British soldier, the one with the bayonet sticking out of him.  They declared their love for each other and currently live out in the shed. 

Edited October 21 by Skooma

[proserpina65]

I have to confess, I wasn't that impressed by this episode, even after watching it a second time.  There were some amusing moments, but it didn't make me laugh out loud the way this show usually does.  Still exponentially better than the show which preceded it, though.

On 10/18/2024 at 4:09 AM, Annber03 said:

I do think Isaac meant it when he said that it wasn't until Pete started talking that all his anxieties and concerns about the wedding finally hit him and all came together, so in that sense I can understand him not bringing up those concerns sooner. 

This is exactly Isaac didn't say anything about it before the wedding.  Except, of course for the conversation about the stripper, which Nigel conveniently seems to have forgotten.

 

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

This is exactly Isaac didn't say anything about it before the wedding.  Except, of course for the conversation about the stripper, which Nigel conveniently seems to have forgotten.

I don't think he's forgotten that. He's just confused because after that talk, Isaac had assured him their relationship was strong and he was ready to get married, and then...he abruptly decided not to go through with it. The whole thing with the stripper was the tipping point for Isaac, yes, but clearly there were other reasons that he backed out as well - his marriage to Beatrice and his guilt around that is still obviously haunting him to some degree, for instance, and that was another big factor for him as well. I don't know how much he's told Nigel about his marriage to Beatrice, if he's said anything to him at all, but yeah, if Nigel doesn't know about that, then I think his confusion and frustration is mainly just due to him trying to figure out what other reasons, beyond the stuff with hte stripper, might've made Isaac decide not to go through with the wedding. 

(And mind, there might still be other reasons beyond everything with the stripper and Beatrice that Isaac might not even be fully aware of, or fully understand, regarding his reason to back out. Reasons which may, with time, become clearer for him, depending on what happens going forward)

.

[Wanda]

Angrily muttering “PATIENCE PATIENCE PATIENCE” shall be my new thing to replace, “ow mah layg” (it’s a 600lb life thing)

[ams1001]

A couple times I couldn't decide if she was reminding herself to be patient or has just gone insane from all her time alone in the dirt.

"patience, Patience, patience!"

I might have to try it at work. Patience, ams, patience!

(And now the word patience just looks wrong. 😜)

[Annber03]

7 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

A couple times I couldn't decide if she was reminding herself to be patient or has just gone insane from all her time alone in the dirt.

I'm guessing it's probably a mix of both. Spending that much time down in the darkness of the dirt like that, who wouldn't go a little mad after a while? 

[iMonrey]

21 hours ago, Skooma said:

As for Pete's wife, she settled in with the "straight" British soldier, the one with the bayonet sticking out of him.

Baxter, the piper. 

I hope we get to see some flashbacks to Nigel's life back in Britain. We really don't know anything about his life except how he died. We don't even know whether or not he was married.

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Annber03 said:

I don't think he's forgotten that. He's just confused because after that talk, Isaac had assured him their relationship was strong and he was ready to get married, and then...he abruptly decided not to go through with it

I think Nigel has forgotten that he basically talked Isaac into going through with it at that point when he really should've taken Isaac's doubts much more seriously.

 

[Skooma]

4 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Baxter, the piper.

Thanks for the correction.  Appreciate it.

[Lugal]

On 10/19/2024 at 12:28 PM, Skooma said:

Doctors of those days thought they sometimes had to let out "bad blood" to heal the person.

It had to do with balancing the humours.

On 10/19/2024 at 6:55 PM, Johannah said:

I thought the fossil might just be a rock

If the fossil's a dinosaur bone, Isaac will be all over that.

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Baxter, the piper. 

He's very peripheral.  It doesn't matter.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Patience describing the handles for the butter churns was gold.

[PaulE]

On 10/22/2024 at 1:51 PM, proserpina65 said:

On 10/21/2024 at 6:51 PM, Annber03 said:

I don't think he's forgotten that. He's just confused because after that talk, Isaac had assured him their relationship was strong and he was ready to get married, and then...he abruptly decided not to go through with it

I think Nigel has forgotten that he basically talked Isaac into going through with it at that point when he really should've taken Isaac's doubts much more seriously.

 

The warning lights were flashing and Nigel should have seen them, but I think his love for Isaac either blinded him or enabled him to deny that they were there.

 

[PaulE]

On 10/21/2024 at 6:51 PM, Annber03 said:

don't know how much he's told Nigel about his marriage to Beatrice, if he's said anything to him at all, but yeah, if Nigel doesn't know about that, then I think his confusion and frustration is mainly just due to him trying to figure out what other reasons, beyond the stuff with hte stripper, might've made Isaac decide not to go through with the wedding. 

(And mind, there might still be other reasons beyond everything with the stripper and Beatrice that Isaac might not even be fully aware of, or fully understand, regarding his reason to back out. Reasons which may, with time, become clearer for him, depending on what happens going forward)

Many people, when they first come out after years of repression and feeling that they've been slowly dying inside, kind of go wild with this sense of newfound freedom--the proverbial kid in the candy store.  Those who do that are usually younger than Isaac, but Isaac's somewhat immature for his age and, through no fault of his own, hasn't been able to undergo a lot of informative life experiences.  So it's possible he convinced himself he was in love with the first person with whom he was allowed to be himself and share an honest relationship.  Perhaps if he'd been able to date a variety of guys his feelings for Nigel might have cooled or changed.  He really had no perspective or sense of proportion, nor did he have anyone who could've given him sound advice based on their own experience.

Of course, I'm still not discounting the possibility that--at some point in the future--Isaac might realize that he truly does love Nigel after all.

[Neptune]

https://screenrant.com/ghosts-season-4-patience-catchphrase-meaning/

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

On 10/20/2024 at 1:34 AM, Skooma said:

Speaking of the original show I wonder if Patience will be like the UK's "Mary."  Basically the same time frame.  Just one little detail different.  Mary was wrongfully burned at the stake as a witch (not a spoiler, it's mentioned in like the first 10 minutes of the show) whereas Patience would be more likely to do the burning then to be the burned, lol.

Just a note for historical purposes, in the parts of North America that are former British colonies, people who were executed for witchcraft were hanged. There are some exceptions, but Puritans did not burn people at the stake. Burning at the stake was done mostly in Catholic countries as a punishment for heresy against the Church, which could include witchcraft. 

[kav]

Do we know if Patience lived in the house before being in the hole?  Where was she when young Hettie heard Thor singing to her?

[NoReally]

My Patience is wearing thin.

[Paloma]

We were in France for most of October so just having a chance to catch up with the new season now. I haven't seen anyone mention this yet in this episode thread, but was Rose McIver still pregnant (or maybe carrying some postpartum weight) when this was filmed? Both my husband and I noticed that her middle was concealed in some shots, as they did last season, but she didn't look noticeably pregnant when she wasn't concealed. I think the tops she was wearing in this episode all had horizontal stripes, which seems an odd choice because they generally make people look heavier.

[shapeshifter]

On 11/2/2024 at 10:22 AM, Paloma said:

We were in France for most of October so just having a chance to catch up with the new season now. I haven't seen anyone mention this yet in this episode thread, but was Rose McIver still pregnant (or maybe carrying some postpartum weight) when this was filmed? Both my husband and I noticed that her middle was concealed in some shots, as they did last season, but she didn't look noticeably pregnant when she wasn't concealed. I think the tops she was wearing in this episode all had horizontal stripes, which seems an odd choice because they generally make people look heavier.

I think I thought the same thing.