S02.E04: Eldest

[Anduin]

From serious to whimsy and back again. That isn't unique to Tolkien, but I would say it's a fair representation of his spirit. I do wonder if half the episode made sense to the non-readers among us, but it worked for me, and that's what matters.

[AnimeMania]

The Stranger finds what he’s been searching for. Arondir and Isildur search for Theo. Galadriel and Elrond walk into a trap.

Premiere Date: September 5, 2024   Prime Video   

[Anduin]

The show seems to like delving into areas untouched by Tolkien. All he said was that hobbits first appeared east of the Misty Mountains, upper Anduin area. Here we're well east of that. It's possible they spread out in several directions.

Bombadil has never struck me as a mentor figure, not one for giving advice. Great to have a beer with, can be relied on for gardening tips. Certainly not one for teaching magic. Maybe there's something in his own stories I'm missing. There's only so much poetry I can handle.

Tolkien never named Isildur's wife, either. Could be Estrid. I was hoping she'd say something like 'I did what I needed to survive. It doesn't make me a believer in Adar's ways.' But no, she has to go and grab a sword. Still, she came good with the swamp worm. I'm sure I've seen something like that in Magic the Gathering, but I can't remember the exact card. Anyway, I wonder if we'll see her again.

Maybe I've missed something, but Theo's promise? I have no memory of such a thing. But the other half of that, I suspect Arondir will be the one to rescue Galadriel.

As much as Galadriel messed up previously, she's doing her best to make amends. And while it will probably turn out all right in the end, Elrond should have listened to her about the barrow downs. Now he has a magic ring, what will he do with it if anything?

Stoors, ents, barrow downs, and Bombadil all in one episode. I don't generally like too much fanservice, even when I'm the fan being serviced. Space it out a little, will you? I suppose with only eight episodes a season, they really have to pack it in. Not sure what I thought of the ents, apart from their presence feeling a little excessive.

But in 'it's all connected' news, Jim Broadbent was the voice of one of the ents. He was in the 2005 The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe. That movie was inspired by the LOTR movies, and CS Lewis was good friends with Tolkien!

[Affogato]

Quote

Bombadil has never struck me as a mentor figure, not one for giving advice. Great to have a beer with, can be relied on for gardening tips. Certainly not one for teaching magic. Maybe there's something in his own stories I'm missing. There's only so much poetry I can handle.

Bombadil is mother/father earth (a they is hinted at in this episode, later we meet his wife, but no teason to assume he isn’t just a being with two aspects) A titan, older than the Valar.  profoundly pagan, so much so that I think the Christian author muffled them a little. Or so I think. Had to be, no need to dwell. 
 

who better to mentor a falling star in the way of his new world?
 

Quote

Maybe I've missed something, but Theo's promise? I have no memory of such a thing. But the other half of that, I suspect Arondir will be the one to rescue Galadriel.

I don’t remember the promise either. Arondir is looking good for the first king of the mirkwood, after that ent meeting. It will provide any surviving good southerners a home, too  

 

Quote

he show seems to like delving into areas untouched by Tolkien. All he said was that hobbits first appeared east of the Misty Mountains, upper Anduin area. Here we're well east of that. It's possible they spread out in several directions.

The Shire is not that far east of the misty mountains. the weather in the area could change. I’m not completely clear if the geography, but it seems possible. 
 

If that is one of the swamps polychaetes I am not looking forward to meeting the hirudinea. 

Edited September 5 by Affogato

[Grimnar]

I like Bombadil's actor(agree with comment above that in books he didn't come across as mentor figure) but I think that Bombadil, ents, barrow wights, Stoors are just there for fan service, then to server some story purpose. It is like in some cases, showrunners want to add characters which Jackson cut from movies.

What is most frustrating aspect of this season for me is timeline and traveling. Somehow Adar and his army arrived into Eregion before Elrond's company. And it was after Sauron travelled from Eregion to Mordor, was captured and Adar prepared his army for march. At the same time elves are saying how important it is to warn Celebrimbor but then they are going on foot instead of horses(and we knwo that they have horses unless they gave the remaining to previous messanger). It is clear what writers want to present in story but often it is in poor or clumsy way.

Why is Adar still using Sauron's sigil?

So we have confirmed Saruman in the show now and theory that it is maybe future Witch-king or Khamul is gone?

[Affogato]

35 minutes ago, Grimnar said:

I like Bombadil's actor(agree with comment above that in books he didn't come across as mentor figure) but I think that Bombadil, ents, barrow wights, Stoors are just there for fan service, then to server some story purpose. It is like in some cases, showrunners want to add characters which Jackson cut from movies.

What is most frustrating aspect of this season for me is timeline and traveling. Somehow Adar and his army arrived into Eregion before Elrond's company. And it was after Sauron travelled from Eregion to Mordor, was captured and Adar prepared his army for march. At the same time elves are saying how important it is to warn Celebrimbor but then they are going on foot instead of horses(and we knwo that they have horses unless they gave the remaining to previous messanger). It is clear what writers want to present in story but often it is in poor or clumsy way.

Why is Adar still using Sauron's sigil?

So we have confirmed Saruman in the show now and theory that it is maybe future Witch-king or Khamul is gone?

I guess they replaced the blue wizards with ones we know, for familiarity and fan service.  I am assuming that there may be multiple barrows all over middle earth, so stumbling on one does not mean anything in terms of location. 
 

I confused the sigil, too, but it is not for Sauron, it is a map of mordor, I suppose. Galadriel discovers this in Numenor. 

Edited September 5 by Affogato

[Grimnar]

1 minute ago, Affogato said:

I guess they replaced the blue wizards with ones we know, for familiarity and fan service.  I am assuming that there may be multiple barrows all over middle earth, so stumbling on one does not mean anything in terms of location. 
 

I confused the sigil, too, but it is not for Saruman, it is a map of mordor, I suppose. Galadriel discovers this in Numenor. 

I know barrows are on more than one place but it is necessary to have them there or it is just another easter egg?

The sigil is Sauron's, not Saruman's. It is map of Mordor but it was also on Finrod's body(which beg question why Sauron/orcs are using map of their "secret" base as sigil). If they would say that it was Sauron's eye it would be better.

[Affogato]

15 minutes ago, Grimnar said:

I know barrows are on more than one place but it is necessary to have them there or it is just another easter egg?

The sigil is Sauron's, not Saruman's. It is map of Mordor but it was also on Finrod's body(which beg question why Sauron/orcs are using map of their "secret" base as sigil). If they would say that it was Sauron's eye it would be better.

Sorry, saruman was a glitch in the matrix.
 

Sauron used it and Adar uses it. It appears to mean something more than ‘sauron’, like a country’s flag does not specifically mean one leader. In this case, maybe more like a swastika. It may be a sign for evil things in the know, where to find like minded people. It may have originated with Morgoth. 
 

We will see how much progress Annatar and his stooge have made with the nine rings when our heroes arrive at the foundry. 

Edited September 5 by Affogato

[Affogato]

On the other hand Melkor put Sauron in charge of that area very early in the first age, so perhaps it is his sigil. Who knows?

[thuganomics85]

Tom Bombadil's in the house!  Not quite sure about the idea of him being some kind of mentor for Gandalf (yeah, I'm going to just assume the obvious is happening here), but he could be fun at least and Roy Kinnear seems to be a good fit for him.  Doubt we'll be getting any "Eye of the Tiger"/Rocky montages with any wizard training sequences though!

Nori and Poppy are still alive and apparently have met the ancestors of their former leader?  I guess they'll be sticking around and dealing with The Dark Wizard/Saruman (?)'s goon squad coming back.

Pleasantly surprised they didn't drag out the Estrid reveal for too long and Arondir quickly sussed out what her real deal is.  But thanks to saving both him and Isildur from a bog creature, she's already back into their good graces and is making eyes with Isildur again.  Only to find out her husband is still alive.  D'oh!

Not surprised Elrond would lead his gang of elves into a trap due to his need to beat Sauron to the punch and not trusting Galadriel's ring.  It could have ended up way worse for them, but I guess even Middle Earth can't shake off the classic horror tropes because, of course, it's the black elf that ends up being the only one to die/die first.  I guess some cliches in media are hard to kill off for some reason.

Galadriel gets her badass on to buy them time to escape but is now in Adar's clutches, it seems.

Fun hearing Jim Broadbent and Olivia Williams' voices as the Ents.

Actually thought it was one of the better episodes of this series but these ultra dark episodes need to stop.  It might be the worst yet and that's saying something since that's been an issue with a lot of fantasy shows on television.

[tkc]

Anyone else watching the short bonus material for each of the episodes? It’s so fun to hear some of the actors’ real-life accents — Ismael Cruz Cordova sounds very little like Arondir!

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Not surprised Elrond would lead his gang of elves into a trap due to his need to beat Sauron to the punch and not trusting Galadriel's ring.  It could have ended up way worse for them, but I guess even Middle Earth can't shake off the classic horror tropes because, of course, it's the black elf that ends up being the only one to die/die first.  I guess some cliches in media are hard to kill off for some reason.

I noticed that too. They probably wrote a generic role and that was the guy who auditioned. I would have switched it to the white guy getting monstered, but it's not my call.

[Affogato]

I think Gandalf is going to get his staff from old man ironwood. He is going to need to ask nicely though. That’s where Bombadil comes in. 
 

 

[dkb]

8 hours ago, tkc said:

Anyone else watching the short bonus material for each of the episodes? It’s so fun to hear some of the actors’ real-life accents — Ismael Cruz Cordova sounds very little like Arondir!

Where is this? On YouTube?

 

Best episode so far, all plots are moving now. 

I was assuming Theo's promise was to his mom to help their villagers and be their healer like her.

[Msample]

I get that they play fast and loose with geography at times, but now it borders on the almost comical. One episode Adar is in Mordor, the next he’s all the way up near Eregion ? 

[rmontro]

I think the actor is appropriate for Bombadil, I would have dressed him a tad different.  And why put him in Rhun?  Maybe Goldberry was talking from a nearby stream?  Barrow wights too!

So we have an entwife.  Again, it doesn't seem right with the timeline.  I actually wonder if they are showing an entwife before they disappeared, or if they are showing female ents for political reasons, because you know, you can't have all males?  I wasn't guessing the ents, I thought maybe they were dealing with trolls or giants.

[tkc]

4 hours ago, dkb said:

Where is this? On YouTube?

On my Prime Video app, the bonus content episodes are listed in the list of episodes for this season.

[silverstream]

I find it hilarious that they've apparently decided that the best way to deal with the backlash to the murder-protohobbits last season is to completely retcon Nori and Poppy's clan into some sort of fundamentalist cult who left the actual proto-hobbit community to start their own thing and never told their younger generations the truth about where they come from. It's like they're some weird 70s commune where the kids end up writing tell-all books once they're deprogrammed.

It's a bold choice to fix things by making the unlikeable characters from last season even more unlikeable, but the even weirder thing is that it's actually working, at least for me.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, Msample said:

I get that they play fast and loose with geography at times, but now it borders on the almost comical. One episode Adar is in Mordor, the next he’s all the way up near Eregion ? 

I assume part of it is that we are show. Some things out of chronological order so we know what is going on.  What happened at the forge may not have been all accomplished while we are with Elrond’s party. 

[Anduin]

I knew the swamp worm reminded me of Magic the Gathering! Took me a few days, but I found the card. Warning, monstrous worm ahead.

[Haleth]

Aww, man!  We get Bombadil but no Goldberry?  Other than her voice?  We even got an Entwife but no Goldberry?  At least TomB wasn’t as annoying as he could have been.

Every time Elrond and Galadriel argue I can’t help but chuckle since

Spoiler

someday she will be his mother in law. 

Should I spoiler that?  Guess better to be safe.

Ok, the episode was fun, I guess. The barrow wights looked like something out of a cheap animatronic amusement park ride though. 

Edited September 7 by Haleth

[Affogato]

10 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Aww, man!  We get Bombadil but no Goldberry?  Other than her voice?  We even got an Entwife but no Goldberry?  At least TomB wasn’t as annoying as he could have been.

Every time Elrond and Galadriel argue I can’t help but chuckle since

  Hide contents

someday she will be his mother in law. 

Should I spoiler that?  Guess better to be safe.

Ok, the episode was fun, I guess. The barrow wights looked like something out of a cheap animatronic amusement park ride though. 

I think in actual timeline Celebrian is already born. And would be adult. 
 

i think Tom and Goldberry are the same person. 

Edited September 7 by Affogato

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, silverstream said:

It's a bold choice to fix things by making the unlikeable characters from last season even more unlikeable, but the even weirder thing is that it's actually working, at least for me.

This show works better if you don't think too hard and just look at the pretty visuals.

[quarks]

My favorite episode so far this season, despite the lack of my otherwise favorite characters - Sauron and the dwarves.

Great things:

1. Tom Bombadil. Doing a bit of singing. Opening trees.

2. Trees going, you know what? We have had it with things in this show. Absolutely had it. You go, trees. Trap and encircle and lecture more people. 

And Entwives! Ok, one Entwife! Possibly not 100% book canon, but, Entwife!

3. Arondir immediately figuring out that just maybe something was up with Isildur's girlfriend, and also immediately figuring out that just maybe something might be going on with those trees.

4. Adar's greeting to Galadriel at the end there, in elegant Quenya.

5. Adding still more meaning to that walking song.

Questionable things:

1. I'm not feeling Poppy's love interest. At all. I realize her romantic choices have been incredibly limited thus far but....you can do better, Poppy.

2. Having Arondir be the hands down coolest elf of the episode (sorry, Galadriel and Elrond) definitely mitigated matters, but still, black elf dying first in the horror part of the episode? Sigh.

3. Still not feeling Theo. Still feeling that he's probably on the road to being a Nazgul - or the King of the Dead - and still kinda hoping that the Nazgul or the ghosts kill him. Or both.

4. Elrond saying that Galadriel hadn't sacrificed herself to save the Elves, but to save the Ring. Why not both, Elrond, especially since Galadriel has been saying that the Ring can save the Elves?

Bad things:

1. Agreeing with everyone here: the lighting. I tried this on both my TV and my laptop and parts were just almost impossible to see - much of the Barrow-wight stuff and some of the Ent stuff. I get that everyone is running around at night, but in the name of Elbereth Gilthoniel, show, kindly let us see this. With extra starlight, if needed. 

[QuantumMechanic]

21 hours ago, Msample said:

I get that they play fast and loose with geography at times, but now it borders on the almost comical. One episode Adar is in Mordor, the next he’s all the way up near Eregion ? 

Game of Thrones season 8 transportation!

[Harvey]

50% of the season gone and nothing has happened. Way too many plotlines. I know everything will happen in episode 7 but still....

[Haleth]

I read a really interesting article yesterday (sorry, I can't find it again) in which the writer put forth a very convincing argument that the Stranger and the Eastern wizard actually are the blue wizards.  He cited two of Tolkien's writings, one where the blues made a mess of things in the East, and another where they were instrumental in turning the Easterlings away from Sauron.  (I guess late in his life JRRT changed the names and history of the blues.)  So the writers of RoP took a little of both, with one wizard creating havoc and the Stranger being sent to clean up.  I would love love this, after all the speculation that the Stranger is Gandalf, if we had been fooled big time.

Of course this doesn't change my opinion (in fact it reinforces it) that the whole storyline should have been cut anyway in service to the more relevant plots.

[Grimnar]

25 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I read a really interesting article yesterday (sorry, I can't find it again) in which the writer put forth a very convincing argument that the Stranger and the Eastern wizard actually are the blue wizards.  He cited two of Tolkien's writings, one where the blues made a mess of things in the East, and another where they were instrumental in turning the Easterlings away from Sauron.  (I guess late in his life JRRT changed the names and history of the blues.)  So the writers of RoP took a little of both, with one wizard creating havoc and the Stranger being sent to clean up.  I would love love this, after all the speculation that the Stranger is Gandalf, if we had been fooled big time.

Of course this doesn't change my opinion (in fact it reinforces it) that the whole storyline should have been cut anyway in service to the more relevant plots.

While it is still possible that they will be blue wizards, it would be pretty bad decision at this moment, if at least Stranger wouldn't be Gandalf. It would be lazy writting to have so many hints for Stranger to be Gandalf and then say it was misdirection(why use same saying as Gandalf about the follow your nose, he need gand, grand elf, etc) and Hinds costume evoke younger looking Saruman.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Grimnar said:

While it is still possible that they will be blue wizards, it would be pretty bad decision at this moment, if at least Stranger wouldn't be Gandalf. It would be lazy writting to have so many hints for Stranger to be Gandalf and then say it was misdirection(why use same saying as Gandalf about the follow your nose, he need gand, grand elf, etc) and Hinds costume evoke younger looking Saruman.

Yes. Bit we are only 12 episodes into the story. Something like that. Under some circumstances this is good pacing, it just isn’t matching ip with the way the thing is being made. I wonder if we will  get a third season? 
 

i think using the familiar characters makes more sense for them..

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

Yes. Bit we are only 12 episodes into the story. Something like that. Under some circumstances this is good pacing, it just isn’t matching ip with the way the thing is being made. I wonder if we will  get a third season? 
 

The third season is in pre production, reportedly on a much lower budget. So that season, at least, is happening.

In terms of later seasons, well, Amazon spent a lot of the rights for this, and beyond that, the show has reportedly led to increased sales on Amazon of the books and various Lord of the Rings related products. So I think Rings of Power will run for the full five seasons.

I don't have the same confidence in Wheel of Time and other Amazon products, for the record. Just for this show.

[Camera One]

I might not wait until the end of the weekend to watch, since it was easy to accidentally see spoilers on websites and video titles, etc.

I thought this one was reasonably engaging, on par with the last one.

Tom Bombadil was alright but didn't stand out as unique given his reputation.  I did find the Stoors slightly more interesting, though it was a bit clunky how they got the Stoor lady on their side to show them the wall drawings.  It would have worked better if Poppy showed her Sadoc's maps and that made her realize their leader was a descendant of their ancestor.

Why did the Ents imprison some of the wildmen, while killing others brutally?  I did like the scene with Arondir and the talking trees.  I loved the Ents in "The Two Towers" book, but did not like them in the Peter Jackson films.  I didn't mind their portrayal in this episode.

I too was relieved Arondir figured out Estrid's true origins quickly.  It is nice to have a character who shows brain activity.  Though  captured Southlanders were also being branded with Adar's mark against their will, so couldn't Estrid have been one of them?

Speaking of brain activity or lackthereof, is Isildur that desperate for a girlfriend?  I can understand him forgiving her after she saved them from the mud monster, but give it some time before trying to kiss her (plus he knows she's engaged).  And then when she betrayed him again by grabbing his sword, he was ready to forgive and forget minutes later, and even went for another kiss.  

As usual, the weakest dialogue and plotline went to the Elves.  Galadriel and Elrond were wooden.  It was obvious Elrond's decision to ignore Galadriel's warning from the ring was going to blow up in his face.  They seemed to be clueless walking into that dark forest, yet promptly knew the name of the Barrow-wights and knew that they could be defeated with the swords that slayed them?  

So did this episode take place concurrently with what we saw in Eregion in the last episode?  Since this episode started with Galadriel and Elrond still moseying around in Linden coming up with a good archer or two.   Shouldn't they have been hurrying if there had been no word from Celebrimbor?   They was no urgency at all.

Adar and his Orcs are already close to Eregion?  That was fast.  I can see now that Galadriel and Elrond are not going to get to Celebrimbor before Sauron gets all the rings made, but the pacing of the subplot over the last 4 episodes was poorly plotted out.

[tennisgurl]

I have to say, I really like this take on Tom Bombadil, he's a bit less of a spacy goof than I would expect but he gets the gist of it. Very old, loves the outdoors, sings all the time, I just wish we had seen Goldberry. 

I also really liked seeing the Ents, I know that this was all fanservice but at least it was fun. They looked so cool and I fully support them just capturing people to lecture them about how to properly care for a forest. We even got an Entwife! I'm not sure why they were killing some people and capturing others and what they planned to do with the captured people, but they look so cool I don't care that much.

Where are we in the timeline? Is all of this happening at the same time as Durin talking to his dad about the recent sketchiness and the Eagle elected a new king? I feel like things are somehow going really quickly and really slowly. 

I have been on Elrond's side about his worries regarding Galadriel, but now he's letting his anger towards her get in the way of what they're actually trying to accomplish. 

[Anduin]

Come on, Galadriel. That's no way to divert an army of orcs. Guerilla fighters don't engage head on. They work by sabotage. Distraction. Hit and run. Good thing Adar was there to save you.

And Isildur, I've walked on plenty of muddy paths before. But never directly in the mud. Instead, from grass to grass. There were strips of grass either side. You could have gone around the trees!

I'm starting to think the characters just aren't that bright.

[wanderingstar]

I was so-so on season 1, but I'm enjoying this season so far. I think the change has mostly been on my end, specifically, that I'm now more willing to meet this show where it is and accept its rambling pacing. 

On 9/7/2024 at 1:55 AM, quarks said:

2. Having Arondir be the hands down coolest elf of the episode (sorry, Galadriel and Elrond) definitely mitigated matters, but still, black elf dying first in the horror part of the episode? Sigh.

Arondir's been one of my favorites since the first season. I've enjoyed his team-up with Isildur.

[Aulty]

Was there a reason given why Elrond and the elven company went on foot and not horseback? Seemed a bit strange and a waste of precious time.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Aulty said:

Was there a reason given why Elrond and the elven company went on foot and not horseback? Seemed a bit strange and a waste of precious time.

I've read people commenting that in the Two Towers, Legolas, Aragorn and Gimli could run really fast, and maybe they were trying to show the same thing.  

But it's hard not to assume it's just plot convenience, so Galadriel and Elrond wouldn't get to Eregion to inform/stop Celebrimbor until it was too late.  I can't think of any in-show reason why they wouldn't have ridden horses.

The map guy at the broken bridge that if they took the "northern" route, it would add 2 weeks to their journey.  Would that have been reduced to 1 week with horses?  How long were Galadriel and Elrond racing on their horses in Episode 1 of Season 2 when they went to Lindon before the bridge was destroyed?  Who knows. 

I wonder if they will eventually explain how and when Halbrand/Sauron managed to destroy that bridge.  Because if he could do that, he could have done a lot of other stuff to make things easier for himself.  It must have been before the elven messengers in episode 1 were sent, since they had to detour to the south through the dark forest.  But wasn't Halbrand still chained in Mordor at that time?   I don't remember exactly.

Edited September 14 by Camera One

[quarks]

The first few episodes of this show suggested that Halbrand/Sauron could convince animals to do things for him, so....maybe Sauron just got into the minds of some bears and said GO EAT THAT BRIDGE and they did.

Or if not bears, trolls.