S02.E04: A Dance Of Dragons

[CeeBeeGee]

On 7/9/2024 at 12:13 PM, AntFTW said:

The Rook's Rest battle, I think, shows that Vhagar is beatable. Vhagar's largeness is a strength just as much as it's a weakness against the right opponent.

A principle of military tactics is that (nearly) every overwhelming strength can be turned into a weakness. Vhagar is indeed huge but she likely can't maneuver or change direction as quickly.

 

23 hours ago, Colorado David said:

was naming people so similarly a thing back in the middle ages? or is this just a habit fantasy writers seem to enjoy?

There weren't as many names to choose from in the middle ages. This is why you have so many different nicknames for names such as Richard (Dick, Rick, Rich), Robert (Rob, Bob, Bert) or Margaret (Margie, Meg, Peg). Also GRRM was unusual in naming his characters the same or very similar names--most fantasy writers have unique names for all their characters. But GRRM wanted some verisimilitude.

 

4 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Sunfyre was just the cutest and that little bop he did with Aegon before they took off for Rook’s Rest made me smile.

One of the few bright spots in the episode. Grumpy old lady Vhagar just wanting to take a nap in the forest was another.

The dragons don’t want any of this. 

...

The bond between her and Meleys before they took flight.

Those final moments where they looked into each other’s eyes, knowing it was the end.

Yup, I’m sad all over again.😢

It’s always the dragons (or direwolves) that affect me, not the humans who aren’t Shireen or Hodor.

I thought I was ready for the Dance of Dragons but I wasn’t. 

I'm starting to feel the way I felt after The Rains of Castamere (when I walked away seriously reconsidering my commitment to watching GoT--I just didn't know if I still was up for a show where men stabbed pregnant women in their bellies or where men do...that...to Robb and Grey Wind).

I just hate any kind of violence to animals, especially intelligent animals.

[AntFTW]

22 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

On a lighter note, this made me snort-laugh.

Suck it, Crispy Creme!

I saw this floating around on Twitter yesterday! I howled! 😂😂😂

[Is Everyone Gone]

I'm kind of confused about the Alicent/Cole relationship. Other than banging, they don't seem to like each other at all. They don't trust each other. Alicent doesn't respect him. 

Although I'm not a big Alicent fan, I wish she had SOMEONE on her team she liked and respected. 

[PatsyandEddie]

Interesting look at the symbols of the future at Harrenhal 

https://apple.news/A2qZdBalWQruFURcDl3jESA

[paigow]

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Stopping at all the inns.

Giving Michelin ratings...

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 7/9/2024 at 2:34 PM, Uncle JUICE said:

  Reveal spoiler

According to GRRM, this only happened one time, to Danaerys, at the birth of her dragons, and Targaryens are definitely succeptible to roasting. 

 

Spoiler

Yeah. Remember that Dany, Drogo, and their baby has a magical whammy put on them by the lady who was graped by the Dothraki horde before Dany "rescued" her. Dany's Targaryen blood saved her from death and activated the 3 dragon eggs as she went into Drogo's funeral pyre.

 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

Although I'm not a big Alicent fan, I wish she had SOMEONE on her team she liked and respected. 

When she figures out a way to kill Criston and get Daddy re-hired....

[scarynikki12]

3 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

I'm kind of confused about the Alicent/Cole relationship. Other than banging, they don't seem to like each other at all. They don't trust each other. Alicent doesn't respect him.

They think if they screw each other they're somehow screwing over Rhaenyra. They both think if Rhaenyra somehow found out she'd be upset. Alicent has the man who originally wanted Rhaenyra and Cristy gets to sleep with Rhaenyra's ex friend. They fail to realize Rhaenyra wouldn't be interested in the slightest if she did find out (if anything she'd see what they're doing right away). She only thinks about Alicent in the sense of their former friendship rather than as a romantic rival and she doesn't think about Cristy on a personal level at all. Remove Rhaenyra and Alicent and Cristy have nothing bringing them together.

[Is Everyone Gone]

1 hour ago, scarynikki12 said:

They think if they screw each other they're somehow screwing over Rhaenyra. They both think if Rhaenyra somehow found out she'd be upset. Alicent has the man who originally wanted Rhaenyra and Cristy gets to sleep with Rhaenyra's ex friend. They fail to realize Rhaenyra wouldn't be interested in the slightest if she did find out (if anything she'd see what they're doing right away). She only thinks about Alicent in the sense of their former friendship rather than as a romantic rival and she doesn't think about Cristy on a personal level at all. Remove Rhaenyra and Alicent and Cristy have nothing bringing them together.

Yes that's it. I also think there's a boredom factor for the Colicent grossmance. Now that Ali is more a Queen mum than actual Queen she doesn't have that much to do. Her kids are grown and she hates them. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

[Affogato]

Btw the title of this episode is

The Red Dragon and the Gold

[paigow]

Alicent needs only to leak information via Larys that tells Daemon where to find Criston for the next month...Daddy is Hand again...

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Btw the title of this episode is

The Red Dragon and the Gold

Yes, why is there a wrong title?

[CeeBeeGee]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

Yes, why is there a wrong title?

Look at the top of the page--the title given is "A Dance of Dragons."

[paigow]

Whoever starts the topic has Edit permission for the title. BTW Episode 02 title is still blank so ... Guidelines...

Edited July 11 by paigow

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Look at the top of the page--the title given is "A Dance of Dragons."

It’s the wrong episode title. The episode isn’t called “A Dance of Dragons.”

[proserpina65]

Okay, I promise to try to not keep harping on this but I have to say it now: I watched the relevant scene again and the position of Aemond's arm and sword do not change after Cole shouts which, to me, indicates pretty clearly that he was preparing to sheath his sword, not finish off Aegon.  Despite, I'm sure, having seriously considered it.

On a related note: I've thought, said and typed "sheath his sword" so many times since Sunday night that it's really starting to sound dirty.

11 hours ago, magdalene said:

Yes, why is there a wrong title?

Back before the season started, a few episode titles were released (possibly these were leaks, I don't remember) and episode four was listed as A Dance of Dragons.  Clearly that was either wrong or the producers changed their minds.

[iMonrey]

26 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Okay, I promise to try to not keep harping on this but I have to say it now: I watched the relevant scene again and the position of Aemond's arm and sword do not change after Cole shouts which, to me, indicates pretty clearly that he was preparing to sheath his sword, not finish off Aegon.  Despite, I'm sure, having seriously considered it.

I don't see the point of showing him with a sword in his hand if he wasn't intending to use it. Sort of like Chekov's gun. I got the distinct impression throughout the episode that Aemond wanted to kill Aegon, and I didn't see anything ambiguous about it. I thought Criston got the same impression which is why he shouted at him when he saw him standing over the body.

[proserpina65]

13 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I don't see the point of showing him with a sword in his hand if he wasn't intending to use it.

I figured he had the sword out for self defense since they were battlefield adjacent AND was considering finishing off his brother but had already decided against it before Criston yelled.  Because the sword was already in the position to be sheathed.

For me, the ambiguity was in whether the attack on Aegon & Sunfyre was something Aemond fixed on from the moment he saw them show up or just opportunistic.  "Damn it, I'm going to kill that idiot now" versus "Hey, Sunfyre and Meleys are tangled up so here's my chance to kill two birds with one stone".  I fall on the side of opportunism but I think the scene itself can be interpreted either way.

Edited to note that I've got to leave the sword debate there because otherwise I'm going to start typing things like "He can sheath that sword in me anytime" and y'all don't wanna read my Aemond porn.

Edited July 11 by proserpina65

[baldryanr]

It's pretty clear he was about to sheath his sword - he was too far away to stab Aegon and there's no other reason to have such an awkward arm position. 

That being said, he had stopped exactly where the dagger was, so he may have been sheathing his sword because he was going to kneel down, pick it up and use that to finish off Aegon. 

 

[paigow]

When Daemon was in the Stepstones, he accidentally killed some of his own soldiers that were Crab King prisoners because the dragon stepped on them. Aemond could have used Vhagar the same way...

Aemond: I was rushing to save Aegon but Vhagar went left instead of right... my bad

[ChicksDigScars]

17 minutes ago, paigow said:

Aemond: I was rushing to save Aegon but Vhagar went left instead of right... my bad

Sarcasm at the next Council: 

"Okay, that's TWO 'my bad's' that you blamed on Vhagar. Maybe you need a smaller dragon? One that you can control? Size isn't everything, my Prince."

 

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Sarcasm at the next Council: 

"Okay, that's TWO 'my bad's' that you blamed on Vhagar. Maybe you need a smaller dragon? One that you can control? Size isn't everything, my Prince."

 

Only if he told anyone about the first 'my bad'.  But I do love this scenario. 😁

[Is Everyone Gone]

I think it's sad that Ali's kids weren't raised with love and care, so they don't have love and care for each other.

Rhaenyra's kids love each other because Rhaenyra was a loving mom.

[CeeBeeGee]

9 hours ago, AntFTW said:

It’s the wrong episode title. The episode isn’t called “A Dance of Dragons.”

Right, the point I'm making is that the thread title was incorrect from the start. (Have no idea why. But something similar happened with the thread for episode 2.) 

[proserpina65]

1 minute ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Right, the point I'm making is that the thread title was incorrect from the start. (Have no idea why. But something similar happened with the thread for episode 2.) 

I imagine it was based on the released/leaked episode title.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, ChicksDigScars said:

Sarcasm at the next Council: 

Size isn't everything, my Prince."

Aemond: The brothel Madam whom I wish was my mother would disagree with that...  

[ChicksDigScars]

On Fallon on Wednesday night (with Fabian and Ewan, there's the show clip in the media thread) they showed a clip from this  episode with Crispy walking up and asking "Where is his grace?" and Aemond pointing at the steaming pile of leftover dragon (RIP, Sunfyre. I assume you're dead, but your rider is not). I was a little surprised that they used that. It is a kind of spoilery clip for the past episode. BUT, I am of the mind that once it's been broadcast in it's traditional time slot, watch TV and cruise the internet at your own peril and don't whine if you get spoiled.

 

Edited July 12 by ChicksDigScars

[Uncle JUICE]

21 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I figured he had the sword out for self defense since they were battlefield adjacent AND was considering finishing off his brother but had already decided against it before Criston yelled.  Because the sword was already in the position to be sheathed.

 

Baby, some swords are ALWAYS in a position to be sheathed. Unless you're Daemon circa season 1, then you can't sheath that shit at all. 

But in seriousness, I agree with your assessment, that he had it out for both reasons, because it's entirely possible that Darklin soldiers would have seen Sunfyre fall, and decided to rally to that point to finish off the king, so it's sensible to assume you might get into some shit there. And I also think he was considering finishing the job, but saw the state Aegon's in and figured "No chance he's making it, that dude is fuuuuuuucked up! I'm gonna be king in about two hours, I can wait for him to expire" and didn't want to go double kinslayer AND kingslayer on his already tarnished reputation (for no man is so accursed, I've heard), so he was putting it away. 

But the ambiguity here is cool, as it is in keeping with a tale told by unreliable narrators. 

[paigow]

On 7/9/2024 at 11:05 AM, proserpina65 said:

We can only go by what councilors on both sides have said and they've all firmly come down on the side of "monarch should not be going to the battle themselves".  And we saw what can happen when they do.

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

because it's entirely possible that Darklin soldiers would have seen Sunfyre fall,

The Darklyn soldiers are part of Criston's army.  But there could've been soldiers from the other side who thought like this.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

But there could've been soldiers from the other side who thought like this.

They were in Alamo protocol... no time for running around outside the castle after a friendly dragon just obliterated 20% of the wall... 

[proserpina65]

12 hours ago, paigow said:

They were in Alamo protocol... no time for running around outside the castle after a friendly dragon just obliterated 20% of the wall... 

That's probably true but it wouldn't have been a good idea for Aemond to depend on it.

[Johnny Dollar]

Aegon trying to speak High Valyrian:

[paigow]

 When Daemon loses his grip on reality...

Edited July 13 by paigow

[proserpina65]

On 7/12/2024 at 5:59 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

Aegon trying to speak High Valyrian:

A reviewer said it was the Valyrian equivalent of "I can haz cheezburger?" but it was actually far less coherent.

[Ambrosefolly]

I know Alicent is making a big deal of Viserys not changing his mind, but I don't understand why it matters that much to her. King Jaehaerys didn't name Rhaenys his heir only because she was a female, despite being the only child of the Jaeharys' eldest son, and everyone sees him as a much better king. Now the "realm" is seeing the consequences of kicking that can down the road. I don't know if Alicent meant it in season one, but she even said Rhaenys' temperament was better suited for the role of ruler. 

[Roseanna]

On 7/8/2024 at 9:41 PM, bluvelvet said:

I think she probably has known about Corlys infidelity for some time.  She looked and said “your mother must have been very beautiful”.  I also think she was probably doing a suicide mission when she turned back but figured she could do some damage to Vhagar in the process. 

In real history, if a man had sex with some low-born woman, it wasn't considered "infidelity", so long he didn't dishonor his wife by publicly parading his mistress. 

So it was no reason for Rhaenys to take offence for something that had happened long ago (and probably during years when Gorlys had been in sea). Instead, Gorlys behaved wrongly by keeping his bastard a secret and Rhaenys properly corrected him. A decent man took care of his bastards.

[Roseanna]

On 7/9/2024 at 3:34 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Of course she can, medieval kings led armies all the time, even without the benefit of riding giant fire-breathing lizards. It could be risky, sure but war is risky in general, especially when you still don't have a freaking army because you act slower than three-toed sloths. No one so much as suggested sending more than one dragon, even though they have previously discussed how their superiority in dragons is their greatest strength and that castle was supposedly very close to their base.

Which makes a terrible politician since many people in the show predicted the war as soon as a male heir was born. Also, feudal heirs who had been in that position for so long tended to have tons of supporters even if the succession was assured, Rhaenyra acting like she needs to start begging every House in Westeros to support her all over again after her father's death is complete nonsense, the faction lines should have been drawn years ago. Some lords would have hedged their bests of course or acted outraged once the Greens did their coup but most would have chosen a side a long time ago, either because they believe in the cause or because they were given a nice enough bribe.

You don't need skills for that, you just call your vassals to bring their levies, it's Feudalism 101. There is no indication that Team Sloth has done any of that, it's been weeks as Alicent said and they are literally wringing their hands whining about having no army.

In theory the king commanded his vassals, but in practice they obeyed him only when it benefitted in some way as the king had no central power and thus couldn't force them.   

But it's true that Rhaenyra had been inactive for years. But Daemon was also that and he should have known better. 

Regarding the show, I guess the purpose is to make Rhaenyra at first an underdog, which is an old plot.

[Roseanna]

On 7/15/2024 at 7:29 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

I know Alicent is making a big deal of Viserys not changing his mind, but I don't understand why it matters that much to her. 

It matters because of her character: she must believe that she has a good conscience. She is called a hypocrite but she is IMO rather a person who betrays herself. 

Cf. Daemon who killed killed his first wife without any pangs of conscience.     

[Roseanna]

On 7/10/2024 at 9:12 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

There weren't as many names to choose from in the middle ages. This is why you have so many different nicknames for names such as Richard (Dick, Rick, Rich), Robert (Rob, Bob, Bert) or Margaret (Margie, Meg, Peg). Also GRRM was unusual in naming his characters the same or very similar names--most fantasy writers have unique names for all their characters. But GRRM wanted some verisimilitude.

These are later names. The writer rather follows Anglon-Saxon names where the first part of the name is the same and the latter part different: f.ex. Eadred and Eadwig. 

In Scandinavia, no surnames wre used, but people's first name was added with father's name and "son or "daughter", like Harold Godwinson who had Danish roots.

Such addresses as "your grace" are later. People called even a king "thee".