S03.E04: Old Friends

[TheOtherOne]

When a caller arrives at her home, Penelope faces a difficult choice. For others, opportunities to build a fresh start - and find a love match - abound.

[twoods]

Surprised the carriage scene was pretty much identical to how it was described in the book. Now we get to see their relationship folding in the second half with the looming lie between them of who she is. I can’t wait! Damn you Netflix for not dropping all the episodes at once.

Really enjoying the other siblings’ storylines as well. Francesca and her suitor seem very sweet together, and happy that Violet gets a love interest. Wondering why Lady Danbury can’t stand her brother- it can’t just be because he’s a “rake”.

[braziliangirl]

Awww. I love John. 

Will Cressida and Pen team up at some point? Who would've thought that I would ship this friendship? Enemies to friends. lol

[dubstepford wife]

This is more about a future season but I don't know what the heck they're planning to do with Benedict.  His entire character for the whole series has been quirky bohemian artist/modern thinker who likes to sleep around.  I haven't read the books so I guess he'll find his perfect match, but in whom?  He just doesn't seem like the love type.  Free love, maybe, so to speak, but not romantic love.

Oh Penelope.  You're so happy now, yet we all know what's coming.  Even I know what's coming and I haven't read the books or any spoilers.  It's not hard to see the sh*t hitting the fan very, very soon.  I do miss seeing you with Eloise though.  Eloise is sweet for reaching out to Cressida, and Cressida seems thankful to have a friend, but the banter between the two of them is not what Eloise and Penelope had.

And speaking of Cressida: this is my favorite season for costumes simply because of Cressida.  Her outfits are bonkers with all the over-the-top shoulder pieces and wacky hairdos and I am loving every second of it.

I'm glad Lord Vegetarian is gone.  I get what they were going for, a reserved man who didn't really want to be married but felt obligated to be so, and I could see him and Cressida ending up together because she genuinely showed some interest in naturalism, but still.  His character could have been endearing but he's just a snooze.

Edited May 17 by dubstepford wife

[libgirl2]

11 minutes ago, dubstepford wife said:

I'm glad Lord Vegetarian is gone.  I get what they were going for, a reserved man who didn't really want to be married but felt obligated to be so, and I could see him and Cressida ending up together because she genuinely showed some interest in naturalism, but still.  His character could have been endearing but he's just a snooze.

Is he gone for good because I think Cressida would be perfect for him. She would get away from that awful prison of a home she is in and those parents, he is pretty nice looking and even with him gone, she would be able to "run her own life". 

[dubstepford wife]

1 minute ago, libgirl2 said:

Is he gone for good because I think Cressida would be perfect for him. She would get away from that awful prison of a home she is in and those parents, he is pretty nice looking and even with him gone, she would be able to "run her own life". 

Absolutely, this is what I'm hoping for too.  In the previous episode, they even had a bit of chemistry!  She could hold her own in a conversation with him far better than Penelope.  Cressida talked about loving birds, and Penelope said something about grass.

I don't think we've seen the last of him, just the last of him and Penelope.

[Chicago Redshirt]

56 minutes ago, dubstepford wife said:

I'm glad Lord Vegetarian is gone.  I get what they were going for, a reserved man who didn't really want to be married but felt obligated to be so, and I could see him and Cressida ending up together because she genuinely showed some interest in naturalism, but still.  His character could have been endearing but he's just a snooze.

I may have missed it in my binging, but I don't think there was anything genuine in Cressida's expressed interest in the great auk or whatever. She was setting out traps for Lord Vegetarian, and it was working well enough. 

I would also predict we haven't seen the last of him as yet. Maybe he and Cressida will become a match after all. 

[libgirl2]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I may have missed it in my binging, but I don't think there was anything genuine in Cressida's expressed interest in the great auk or whatever. She was setting out traps for Lord Vegetarian, and it was working well enough. 

I would also predict we haven't seen the last of him as yet. Maybe he and Cressida will become a match after all. 

No, you didn't miss it.  It was part of a ploy for Lord Vegetarian, though I do think there was a mention of her liking birds. 

Like you, I was binging and maybe missed a few things. Rewatch! 

[twoods]

Lord Vegetarian- I can’t stop laughing! Also hoping that he marries Cressida so she could get away from her awful father. Can’t believe that I would feel sorry for her after her behavior the first two seasons.

[PRgal]

39 minutes ago, twoods said:

Lord Vegetarian- I can’t stop laughing! Also hoping that he marries Cressida so she could get away from her awful father. Can’t believe that I would feel sorry for her after her behavior the first two seasons.

She’s the way she is so she could find ways to get away, I think.  And she’ll get to be alone and have whatever friends she wants once she DOES marry.  But her attitude also repels men.  Save for Lord Plant-Based/Vegetarian (I wonder how vegetarians got all their nutrients back then.  Did they?  So many options available now, but not sure about back then). 

[tennisgurl]

Holy macaroni, that got hot and steamy real fast! I cant believe Netflix is making us wait for the season half of the season, its not like they don't have plenty more material, there are still a ton of Bridgeton's! Now it looks like the second half of the season will be Colin and Penelope in pre-wedded bliss until he finds out her secret and then shit will hit the fan. Hopefully the fallout wont be too bad though, I have come to like them way more than I did last season.

I think maybe Lord Vegetarian (heh) and Cressida could be a good match, she seems to be looking for security more than a romance novel much like how he is looking for a pragmatic partner, and with him being gone for so long she could be away from her sad house and awful father and have her own life. Who would have thought this season would make me feel sorry for Cressida of all people?

Francesca and the lord she likes are really cute, writing her a song based on her her musical preferences is a great gift. I bet they will have a very happy very quiet life together. 

Some very nice music this season.

Edited May 17 by tennisgurl
Got my Sis songs mixed up

[RachelKM]

Okay, then.  I sorta liked Lord Debling's reason for withdrawing his suit.  It wasn't heroic or romantic, it was practical and totally consistent with everything else he has said and done. It was a touch abrupt and made assumptions without discussing it with Pen. But he wasn't wrong and he wasn't cruel... just practical.

I think Pen and Colin were good together in the last scene... But maybe I should have watched fewer BTS videos showing how adorably platonically they adore one another.  Because, even through they were selling it on the screen, my brain could no forget them IRL. There was also an expression Colin had on his face that I assume was meant to glazed with lust but looked sort of hilarious to me.

I'm not saying I can't by them as in love.  I just need to banish their real selves from mind. 

Francesca's face was so endearingly delighted as she realized what Lord Kilmartin had done for her.  I adore them together. He's is so sweet and almost certainly a little neuro spicy. My dude walked right out of a conversation with a woman he's interested in, without explanation or even visibly considering her, because he suddenly thought of something he could do that she would enjoy. 

I really enjoy Marcus and Violet. I'm wondering if Lady Danbury's hostility toward him has more to do with her being married off and resenting his role as heir and relative freedom.

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Now it looks like the second half of the season will be Colin and Penelope in pre-wedded bliss until he finds out her secret and then shit will hit the fan. Hopefully the fallout wont be too bad though, I have come to like them way more than I did last season.

Yup.  I do think that Colin may reframe some of his anger when he realizes that at least one of the things he is upset by was Pen acting against herself.  Likewise, his perspective on Marina may soften when he remembers that Pen tried to tell him privately and that Pen, as opposed to a faceless stranger, knew him and cared about him.  By the same token, I'm sure he'll also realize is was not entirely without self interest considering her feelings.

I expect there will be at least one episode in which he is livid with her and we get the, "I won't abandon you and ruin you. But this changes everything!" sort of response.

19 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Some very nice music this season, I think the classical version of Chandelier by Sia was one of my favorites. 

Did I miss a Chandelier cover?  I heard Cheap Thrills (which was my favorite). 

Edited May 18 by RachelKM

[quarks]

1. Aww, Lord John Kilmartin went and got the music rearranged for Francesca! I love this; it may very well be the most romantic gesture we've seen yet on this show. No wonder she likes him better than the Marquess of uh whatever.

And I am loving all of their other interactions, too - the two actors are genuinely adorable together - but that one - Francesca, marry him NEXT EPISODE before he gets away. We all KNOW that Cressida is desperate.

2. Speaking of Cressida, I think her sleeves this season deserve their own show. And still speaking of Cressida, although I think she really needs to stay away from Lord John BECAUSE HE IS WONDERFUL AND NEEDS TO BE WITH FRANCESCA, I am now cheering on her success, because anyone capable of wearing sleeves like that deserves to have a home/estate of her own away from that father. Yikes. She finally has a friend over and that's your reaction? Even if said friend is the scandalous Eloise Bridgerton?

Maybe she can find some happiness with Lord Vegetarian - he said he was specifically looking for/needing someone who was unattached, and that's kinda Cressida, although she does seem to be increasingly attached to Eloise. Hmm. Or maybe that Marquess person. Cressida was deemed worthy of a prince by the queen in the first season, so presumably she'll be ok for a Marquess.

3. And oooooooh, Colin does want to marry Penelope, but he has no idea that she's also Lady Whistledown! The DRAMA! THE SCANDAL! THE CLIFFHANGER!

Genuinely enjoying this season so far, despite the slightly bumpy bits (hi, Benedict.) Less enjoying Netflix's decision to release this in two parts. Grr.

[Conotocarious]

I can buy Colin being angry about what was written about Lady Crane (but even then he was warned by Pen!) and Eloise but what LW wrote about him this season was so freakin’ tame! And perfectly accurate. I would hope that he can get beyond his shock and anger and see that no real harm was even remotely done to his rep at least and that there was truth in the words.

I liked the way Debling was handled. I did see several remarks liking Pen and Debling together better and the show very deftly made it clear Debling is not some villain, or heartbroken and gallant, or anything of the sort. A practical man seeking a practical match. And according to what Pen herself tells Colin, out was what she thought she wanted in seeking a husband. But as it turns out, she realizes she needs more. And he cannot offer that. He is not in love with her.

[RachelKM]

3 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

can buy Colin being angry about what was written about Lady Crane (but even then he was warned by Pen!) and Eloise but what LW wrote about him this season was so freakin’ tame! And perfectly accurate. I would hope that he can get beyond his shock and anger and see that no real harm was even remotely done to his rep at least and that there was truth in the words.

I don't think he expressed all that much upset about the comments about him.  He was very upset about the things about Lady Crane and Eloise and also about Pen. I could be wrong. 

[quarks]

Yeah, in the first episode of this season, Colin tells Eloise that he doesn't care about what Lady Whistledown said about him, but he does care about what LW said about Marina and Eloise.

And the thing is, Colin obviously is not even remotely at fault for the Eloise situation - apart from maybe failing to notice that Eloise was wandering off to attend political meetings and meet up with a printer's apprentice. But, in complete fairness to Colin, virtually everyone else also failed to notice this, including people who in theory should have been paying more attention (Violet, Anthony, arguably Benedict).  But Eloise is at least slightly at fault for the Eloise situation - she's the one running off to political meetings and to chat with a printer's apprentice. Eloise has presumably realized this - I think this is one reason why she didn't out Penelope. Colin might realize this as well.

The Marina situation is a bi more complicated. Here, Eloise is definitely 100% not at fault since she wasn't even involved. But Colin was. Is he the most guilty party here? Not at all. But at least three people - Violet, Anthony and Pen - expressed concerns about that marriage to Colin directly, and others - notably Benedict and Eloise - failed to express any enthusiasm for that marriage. Colin could have listened to those concerns, and certainly could have asked why Marina was so eager/willing to elope with him, given the whole OMG WE MUST AVOID SCANDAL AT ALL COSTS that is such a feature of this show. He didn't. Again, he's not the guilty party here - but Penelope, both in Penelope and Lady Whistledown mode - was correct to note that Marina was pregnant with someone else's child and hadn't told him this. 

Colin did realize some of this at the end of the first season - he tells Penelope that she (as Penelope) had been right to warn him about Marina. If he had listened, it's possible that some of the scandal might have been avoided. Possible. So that might come into play too, despite how upset he still seems to be about what Lady Whistledown wrote about Marina and Eloise.

[RachelKM]

3 hours ago, quarks said:

If he had listened, it's possible that some of the scandal might have been avoided. Possible. So that might come into play too, despite how upset he still seems to be about what Lady Whistledown wrote about Marina and Eloise.

If he had listened, it would have been avoided.  Outing Marina through LW was a last resort for Pen. She tried other methods to convey the issue first, though Marina herself intervened when Pen tried to finally be direct with Colin. That said, I'm not inclined to blame Colin for not heeding other people's opinions when he thought himself in love.  He was a little obtuse in refusing to hear Pen when she was trying to explain that Marina never stopped loving her George. But Pen was dancing around the real issue.

I blame Marina far more than Colin. Yes, she was in a terrible situation.  But she was still lying, not only about being pregnant but also about her feelings for Colin. She liked him. But she made him think she was in love and desperate to be married to him because she wanted to be with him when all she was desperate for was his name.  Learning that his wife was not only pregnant but merely thought he was nice after he married her would have been terribly cruel. And it seemed he was so blind to her real feelings that it wasn't until her indifference when he visited the Cranes in Season 2 that he got a clue that her affection had been false - or at least truly exaggerated.

Do I wish Pen had blurted out the truth when she was talking to Colin and Marina called him away to end the conversation? Yes. Do I like that she publicly outed Marina? No.  Nor do I think Pen should be let off the hook merely because Marina inadvertently ended up in a better situation than she would have had with Colin.  But I have never been as harsh in my judgment of Pen as some have been because I was never as inclined to excuse Marina as much as others seemed to be. 

I do think Colin should be angry - if nothing else, for NOT blurting the truth out rather than writing about it. But because of how badly he was being played, I expect him to get past it.  

As to Eloise, I think he will only come around if Eloise truly forgives her. 

Edited May 18 by RachelKM
Typos.... as always.

[pigs-in-space]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

There was also an expression Colin had on his face that I assume was meant to glazed with lust but looked sort of hilarious to me.

The look when Pen was stroking his hair? Yeah, me too.

[mrsbagnet]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Some very nice music this season.

Because I watched Season 2 waaaay too many times, I've noticed that they are using some of the same background music. I'm trying not to be distracted by that.

3 hours ago, RachelKM said:

There was also an expression Colin had on his face that I assume was meant to glazed with lust but looked sort of hilarious to me.

Same, lol. It came across as more shocked and confused.

Edited May 18 by mrsbagnet

[Snazzy Daisy]

When heart and head are in conflict, every choice may feel like agony. So true.

Lady Whistledown is right. The new Colin is a persona. All his swagger is gone now. He has been “putting on armor” lately to protect himself from getting hurt. Violet calls him one of her “most sensitive children.

One of the most anticipated Polin scene is here! “Give Me Everything” (by Pitbull ft Ne-Yo, Afrojack, Nayer) is an interesting song choice for the steamy carriage scene.

I like the scene where Francesca and John Stirling sit in silence comfortably while the other Bridgertons look on, baffled. 😆

The first part of season 3 has rom-com vibes to it with some irrelevant side plots. Penelope shines as she’s taking a center stage but unfortunately dull Colin doesn’t ooze much charms like Anthony and Simon Basset. Colin doesn’t have the leading man quality. That’s why the emotional heavy-lifting falls on Penelope.

[TheOtherOne]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

If he had listened, it would have been avoided.  Outing Marina through LW was a last resort for Pen. She tried other methods to convey the issue first, though Marina herself intervened when Pen tried to finally be direct with Colin. That said, I'm not inclined to blame Colin for not heading other people's opinions when he thought himself in love.  He was a little obtuse in refusing to hear Pen when she was trying to explain that Marina never stopped loving her George. But Pen was dancing around the real issue.

I blame Marina far more than Colin. Yes, she was in a terrible situation.  But she was still lying, not only about being pregnant but also about her feelings for Colin. She liked him. But she made him think she was in love and desperate to be married to him because she wanted to be with him when all she was desperate for was his name.  Learning that his wife was not only pregnant but merely thought he was nice after he married her would have been terribly cruel. And it seemed he was so blind to her real feelings that it wasn't until her indifference when he visited the Cranes in Season 2 that he got a clue that her affection had been false - or at least truly exaggerated.

Do I wish Pen had blurted out the truth when she was talking to Colin and Marina called him away to end the conversation? Yes. Do I like that she publicly outed Marina? No.  Nor do I think Pen should be let off the hook merely because Marina inadvertently ended up in a better situation than she would have had with Colin.  But I have never been as harsh in my judgment of Pen as some have been because I was never as inclined to excuse Marina as much as others seemed to be.

Thank you. I regret I can only give you one like for this post. I agree with every word.

I hope the inevitable drama they're setting up for the second half of the season for when he finds out she's Whistledown doesn't last too long and he understands relatively quickly that she did nothing wrong. When a con artist is exposed, the correct response isn't, "Poor, poor con artist! How dare you reveal she was pulling a con to get out of a situation of her own making!"

[maddie965]

Is this it? Or are there more episodes in the first part of the third part? I need Pen and Eloise to get back together!

Benedict seems to have no personality at all in this show. Am I crazy, or was it implied that he was gay in the first season? Wasn't there a teacher/mentor story related to painting? Or did I dream that up?

Edited May 18 by maddie965

[mrsbagnet]

5 minutes ago, maddie965 said:

Is this it? Or are there more episodes in the first part of the third part? I need Pen and Eloise to get back together!

Benedict seems to have no personality at all in this show. Am I crazy, or was it implied that he was gay in the frlirst season? Wasn't there a teacher/mentor story? Or did I dream that up?

This season is split into two four-episode releases. The final four episodes drop on June 13.

In Season 1, Benedict befriended a more experienced artist who was gay and in a secret relationship with another man.

Edited May 18 by mrsbagnet

[Chaser]

I binged. It was a pleasant watch. I really enjoy the vibe of the show. I’m honestly bummed that Netflix or Prime hasn’t launched other adaptations of popular historical romances. 

That being said…I’m struggling a bit with this first half. Maybe following Kat and Anthony with Colin and Pen wasn’t the best move. They are sweet but feel a bit high school to me. I’m missing the banter and the tension in their interactions. 

Honest question, what happened with Benedict? He was a highlight the previous seasons, this season I got nothing. 

Francesca is very sweet, so was her and John. Their first interaction was wonderful. I’m disappointed her and Pen didn’t have more interaction after their first conversation. I actually thought Eloise was toned down this season. Oh Cressida. I think I could like her. I want her to fall in love with a stable boy and run away in her mushroom sleeves. 

Credit where credit is due. This is the first time I’ve been amused by the Feathertons. I LOL’d at ‘insert it where?” Also, the moment between Pen and her mother at the end there..ohhh. I felt for Pen.

[quarks]

I thought of another possible reason/explanation for Benedict's plot this season:

Until these last two episodes, with Benedict's fling with Lady Arnold and Colin and Penelope having fun in a carriage, pretty much all of the women who have been confirmed to have pre-marital or extra-marital sex have been either outside the Ton (the opera dancer, Madame Delacroix, the various prostitutes, the model Benedict was sleeping with last season) or POC (Marina, Kate, Lady Danbury).  We've had hints that various other women in the Ton are sleeping around, but no confirmation.

The major exception was Lady Granville, a blink and you'll miss her character with maybe four lines of dialogue back in season one, who was in an open marriage with Lord Granville, allowing him to be with the man he loves. But all of that came from Lord Granville - we never saw her actually having sex with anyone. 

And even if we include those last few moments, Penelope - technically - still hasn't gone beyond foreplay.

So I think Lady Tilley Arnold is partly meant to balance the scales here a bit. 

Maybe.

 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

Okay, then.  I sorta liked Lord Debling's reason for withdrawing his suit.  It wasn't heroic or romantic, it was practical and totally consistent with everything else he has said and done. It was a touch abrupt and made assumptions without discussing it with Pen. But he wasn't wrong and he wasn't cruel... just practical.

In a way yes. But maybe he anticipated that Pen wouldn't accept his proposal, so it was better for his ego to withdraw it.

Looking from another angle, how could he be sure if Pen wouldn't fell in love with somebody else when he was away. On the other hand, love wouldn't necessarily lead to an affair. 

Actually, Pen being in love with somebody else who wouldn't love her would have been an ideal solution for Lord Debling.

 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

I really enjoy Marcus and Violet. I'm wondering if Lady Danbury's hostility toward him has more to do with her being married off and resenting his role as heir and relative freedom. 

Lady Danbury said something about him hunting a prey. So perhaps she knows that he has had a habit of seducing women during his marriage and suspects that the image he presents to Violet is false.

If he only wants to have an affair, he should be honest about it.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, quarks said:

But Eloise is at least slightly at fault for the Eloise situation - she's the one running off to political meetings and to chat with a printer's apprentice. 

What's wrong to champion for women's rights?

As the Queen suspected Elose to be Lady Whistleton, Pen had two options: to receal Eloise's secrets or confess to be Lady Whistleton herself. She chose to the former. 

[andromeda331]

I love John. The sheet music was so sweet. He and Francesca have my interest more then Penelope and Colin. I just still don't care about Colin. I don't love or hate him. I hated Anthony in season one but liked him in season two and they gave us a reason to why he was a jerk with flashback of his father's death, his mother falling apart and suddenly having to take on the duties of the Viscount. 

I don't know what their doing with Benedict. I liked him in season one exploring the artistic side of the Ton and season two with him taking art lessons. He's been funny at times. This season? He's just there. Now another affair. Do they really have nothing else he can do until his turn? 

I think I'd marry Lord Debling back then for his library. All of those books! I do like that he was up front to Penelope about being gone a lot. I like him deciding not to propose realizing she liked Colin. Whether it was for her or he worried she might have an affair after their married. I like the way he handled it. I agree that he and Cressida would do well together. He'll be gone a lot and she'll get away from her horrible father.  I wonder why he doesn't like Eloise is it because what was Lady Whistledown last season about her or that she isn't married? Maybe both.

I'm worried about Violet and Lady Danbury's brother, from what she said about him. I hope she's wrong or he's changed.

I really do hope Eloise is learning how lucky she is. She has a good family and they're the reason she can be the way she is. She doesn't have to be hunting a husband because of money or security. Or because her father or mother are horrible. She was surprised that Penelope was looking for husband and why? She knows Penelope's been treated like crap by her family all her life. She can sit back and make snipe comments or be rude to suitors or anyone as she had in previous seasons and not risk anything for her self or her family. 

 I liked Mrs. Mondrich getting advice from Lady Danbury. I hope that continues. I get Mr. Mondrich doesn't want to give up what he worked so hard for. But at the same time he has so many opportunities now for him and for his family. 

I love that Brimsley can read from where he stands. The Queen later telling him to take a step back because of it.

 

 

 

 

 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, TheOtherOne said:

I hope the inevitable drama they're setting up for the second half of the season for when he finds out she's Whistledown doesn't last too long and he understands relatively quickly that she did nothing wrong. When a con artist is exposed, the correct response isn't, "Poor, poor con artist! How dare you reveal she was pulling a con to get out of a situation of her own making!"

I beg to differ. I hope Pen will suffer for a very long time - at best to the end of the last season.

Instead of a con artist, I see Pen to be like an informer during McCarthy age - she has revealed secrets of people she prentends to be friends with and, when she has faced a choice, always put her own ego and money she can earn first.   

[Conotocarious]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

I thought of another possible reason/explanation for Benedict's plot this season:

Until these last two episodes, with Benedict's fling with Lady Arnold and Colin and Penelope having fun in a carriage, pretty much all of the women who have been confirmed to have pre-marital or extra-marital sex have been either outside the Ton (the opera dancer, Madame Delacroix, the various prostitutes, the model Benedict was sleeping with last season) or POC (Marina, Kate, Lady Danbury).  We've had hints that various other women in the Ton are sleeping around, but no confirmation.

The major exception was Lady Granville, a blink and you'll miss her character with maybe four lines of dialogue back in season one, who was in an open marriage with Lord Granville, allowing him to be with the man he loves. But all of that came from Lord Granville - we never saw her actually having sex with anyone. 

And even if we include those last few moments, Penelope - technically - still hasn't gone beyond foreplay.

So I think Lady Tilley Arnold is partly meant to balance the scales here a bit. 

Maybe.

 

Lady Granville’s first screen time was a threesome with Benedict and Madame Delacroix though. 

[libgirl2]

11 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

I like the scene where Francesca and John Stirling sit in silence comfortably while the other Bridgertons look on, baffled. 😆

 

one of the best scenes. 

[quarks]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

What's wrong to champion for women's rights?

As the Queen suspected Elose to be Lady Whistleton, Pen had two options: to receal Eloise's secrets or confess to be Lady Whistleton herself. She chose to the former. 

Championing women's rights isn't wrong.

Associating with radicals who the Queen believes may be hoping to or even actively plotting to overthrow the Crown, is an entirely different story.

Granted, this is not exactly one of TV's most historical shows - I mean this season we are apparently in either 1815 or 1816 and yet absolutely no one has mentioned Napoleon or Waterloo in the past four episodes. But I think it's important to remember the overall context: the Queen (and Brimsley) can remember the American and French Revolutions. Radicals in the French Revolution executed Queen Marie Antoinette AND multiple other aristocrats, including the royal Philippe Egalite, who had sympathized with the radicals.  The Queen's contemporaries openly speculated that the American Revolution was a contributing cause of King George's mental illness. 

And although the British government didn't completely crack down on all radicals, they did arrest and imprison many of them - particularly those deemed to be advocating the overthrow of the current political structure. 

So, yeah, the Queen has very good reason to be concerned about reports that Eloise isn't just running around more or less unescorted, but attending radical political events - something Eloise absolutely did and chose to do. 

Whether or not Penelope/Lady Whistledown should have printed this is another story, but Eloise knew full well that she was taking a number of risks here (Penelope isn't the only person to point this out prior to the Whistledown story - Theo and the footman make the same point) and that what she did was definitely outside the rules of Society.

1 hour ago, Conotocarious said:

Lady Granville’s first screen time was a threesome with Benedict and Madame Delacroix though. 

See, blink and you'll miss it character! I totally forgot that - thanks.

[RachelKM]

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Looking from another angle, how could he be sure if Pen wouldn't fell in love with somebody else when he was away. On the other hand, love wouldn't necessarily lead to an affair. 

He can't, of course. But the risk is obviously greater when she is already in love with someone else.  

11 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Lady Danbury said something about him hunting a prey. So perhaps she knows that he has had a habit of seducing women during his marriage and suspects that the image he presents to Violet is false.

I got the impression that Marcus and Lady Danbury haven't seen each other in years and that Marcus hasn't come to London in longer.  And the way he spoke about his wife and about his kids, he doesn't seem like a man who spent his married life seducing women left right and sideways.

It feels more like a case of Danbury holding on to an impression of her brother from his youth and, maybe, resentment thereof.  Also, Lady Danbury doesn't seem like someone who would be shy about warning Violet off Marcus if she had specific and recent knowledge of him being a serial seducer. 

Edited May 18 by RachelKM

[Conotocarious]

23 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

He can't, of course. But the risk is obviously greater when she is already in love with someone else.  

And also, Debling has been seeing Colin barge in and make scenes and unlike Penelope, he can see that there’s probably feelings there on Colin’s part as well. It’s a brutal way to start a marriage!

[Future Cat Lady]

I like the carriage scene but it happened way too soon. They needed a lot more build up to it. Colin went from 0 to 100 in a second. A slow burn romance would work much better for these two. Colin needs more character development.

[Conotocarious]

11 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I like the carriage scene but it happened way too soon. They needed a lot more build up to it. Colin went from 0 to 100 in a second. A slow burn romance would work much better for these two. Colin needs more character development.

I wouldn’t be opposed to more episodes. 8 is too few. Why not 10? They have enough subplots.

[Future Cat Lady]

6 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

I wouldn’t be opposed to more episodes. 8 is too few. Why not 10? They have enough subplots.

That's one of the problem with this show. There is too many storylines for the amount of episodes they have. I don't hate the Featherington or Mondrich's stories, but it takes a lot of screentime away from the main couple.

Last year, it would've been nice to see some of Kate's personal issues/traumas but we got nothing.

[Conotocarious]

3 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

That's one of the problem with this show. There is too many storylines for the amount of episodes they have. I don't hate the Featherington or Mondrich's stories, but it takes a lot of screentime away from the main couple.

Last year, it would've been nice to see some of Kate's personal issues/traumas but we got nothing.

Yeah unlike last season I am really enjoying the Featheringtons this time. I laughed out loud a lot. But I don’t know what to think of the Mondriches. They just seem shoehorned in, I really hope there is going to be some connection to the main storyline.

[libgirl2]

52 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

Yeah unlike last season I am really enjoying the Featheringtons this time. I laughed out loud a lot. But I don’t know what to think of the Mondriches. They just seem shoehorned in, I really hope there is going to be some connection to the main storyline.

I had to look them up. I don't mind their story line. 

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, RachelKM said:

And the way he spoke about his wife and about his kids, he doesn't seem like a man who spent his married life seducing women left right and sideways.

If he intends to seduce Violet, he has collected information about her and knows whar kind of things would make a good impression on her.

1 hour ago, Future Cat Lady said:

That's one of the problem with this show. There is too many storylines for the amount of episodes they have. I don't hate the Featherington or Mondrich's stories, but it takes a lot of screentime away from the main couple.

I completely agree. I didn't even remember Cressida.

Also, it was a much better way that Anthony's trauma (although it was quite childish) was told only in the second season. Instead, too much happened between Pen and Colin in the first season - it's not believable that their relationship developed in only four episodes.

[RachelKM]

3 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

If he intends to seduce Violet, he has collected information about her and knows whar kind of things would make a good impression on her.

That's a wild thought that he would have actually studied up on a woman to seduce her.  And, sure, anything is possible. But that's super dark for this show, especially for a C plot in an 8 episode season.

But I keep returning to the fact that Lady Danbury does not strike me as a person who would hesitate to warn her friend if her brother had targeted said friend as a victim of his serial complicated seduction cons.  Likewise, it would be odd for a person who engages in such devious and involved seductions to choose a woman so well known to and liked by his sister who knows what he is and could warn her off. 

[Roseanna]

20 hours ago, RachelKM said:

If he had listened, it would have been avoided.  Outing Marina through LW was a last resort for Pen. She tried other methods to convey the issue first, though Marina herself intervened when Pen tried to finally be direct with Colin.

No, it wasn't. She could send an anonomous letter to Colin or told about Marina's pregnancty to Violet. 

Or she could have let Colin to make his own mistake - after all, he is an adult man. Pen treated him as if he were her child.

[RachelKM]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

No, it wasn't. She could send an anonomous letter to Colin or told about Marina's pregnancty to Violet. 

This is a tired argument and been addressed ad nauseum, so I will make this brief and move on.  Pen could not have sent an anonymous letter. Marina convinced Colin to elope rather than wait the weeks for the reading of the banns.  Pen learned of it literally the night before, after Marina had already packed.  She had a maximum of 12 hours to get the information to Colin. She didn't know where he was.  She couldn't access 90% of the places he might be to confirm his location. And, thus, she wouldn't have known where to send such a missive.

As for letting him make his own mistake, sure. But how many of us choose that when it involves a person we love? Pen may have believed there was no world in which Colin would be with her. But that doesn't mean she could bear to stand by and watch him be used and hurt in a way that would affect his entire life.

She made a choice. It had consequences, primarily for Marina.  But Marina also made choices. She had sex with the man she loved and that idiot went off to war without marrying her first which he absolutely could have done (Gretna Green was a thing). She then decided to wait for him for MONTHS while knowingly pregnant before committing herself to tricking a man into marriage and she was prepare to lie her way into a marriage for the sake of her child. Certainly an understandable motive but it doesn't make her an innocent or a blameless victim. And she and her child were not, apparently, Pen's priority.

Ultimately, Marina wasn't ruined by lies or by being manipulated by someone else's deeds. She was ruined with truth and because of her own manipulations.

You judge Pen harshly. I do not. I don't think pointing out the fact that Pen had another option to allow Colin's fate to damn him will change that for either of us.

Edited May 18 by RachelKM
Typos.... as always.

[Chaser]

I need to do another watch.

I really wish they had held off on revealing Pen to the audience till this season. I think we should have learned it with Colin. I liked Colin’s speech about how he found himself and whatnot but I cringed that himself was basically a manwhore. 

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

As for letting him make his own mistake, sure. But how many of us choose that when it involves a person we love? 

Well, that's what parents must do after their children have become adults. They can warn - although even that is dangerous as it can lead to breaking relationships - but no more. Friends should be even more careful in meddling.

In my favorite novel the father says to his daughter after telling that the man she wants to marry is no good: "It would better to make you cry now than to let you cry for the rest of your life. - - But you yourself are responsible for it, and I suppose you have the right to choose your burden."

[RachelKM]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

In my favorite novel the father says to his daughter after telling that the man she wants to marry is no good: "It would better to make you cry now than to let you cry for the rest of your life. - - But you yourself are responsible for it, and I suppose you have the right to choose your burden."

Cool. Even with that statement, the implication is that the father told his daughter what he knew and thought.

I also assume this paragon of a father did not have actual knowledge of the young man in question having lied and manipulated but merely suspected he was untrustworthy and/or was bound hurt his daughter with his behavior. 

Penelope wasn't a 40+ year old parent. She was a 17 year old girl who saw a woman preparing to break the heart of man she loved. And there is little doubt he would have been heartbroken when he learned he'd not only been lied to but eventually understood Marina never loved him.  

Again, we aren't changing our minds nor changing each other's. It's been 4 years. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I like the carriage scene but it happened way too soon. They needed a lot more build up to it. Colin went from 0 to 100 in a second. A slow burn romance would work much better for these two. Colin needs more character development.

My take is that there's been years and years of build up to it. On Pen's side, she has had a crush on Colin for years. For his part, it seems like Pen is the only one who's not related to Colin who Colin truly cares about. But he took her for granted previously because he was shallow and oblivious to her feelings, and because he didn't have to deal with the prospect of her becoming Mrs. Someone-else.

His travels made Colin way more worldly IMO. No way would the Colin we see in this season be taken in as the lovesick puppy was in S1. At the same time, having experienced threesomes and wild encounters with hot women, he's able to conclude that they are not all they are cracked up to be. And now, faced with the realistic prospect for the first time that Pen might marry someone else, and knowing how hot it was kissing her, he became jealous and obsessed with her. A lot of this is about seeing and being seen, hearing and being heard. And unlike the rest of the bachelorettes, Pen really expressed a desire to know him deeper than she already does, to hear what he has to say through his writing. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 hours ago, RachelKM said:

This is a tired argument and been addressed ad nauseum, so I will make this brief and move on.  Pen could not have sent an anonymous letter. Marina convinced Colin to elope rather than wait the weeks for the reading of the banns.  Pen learned of it literally the night before, after Marina had already packed.  She had a maximum of 12 hours to get the information to Colin. She didn't know where he was.  She couldn't access 90% of the places he might be to confirm his location. And, thus, she wouldn't have known where to send such a missive.

As for letting him make his own mistake, sure. But how many of us choose that when it involves a person we love? Pen may have believed there was no world in which Colin would be with her. But that doesn't mean she could bear to stand by and watch him be used and hurt in a way that would affect his entire life.

She made a choice. It had consequences, primarily for Marina.  But Marina also made choices. She had sex with the man she loved and that idiot went off to war without marrying her first which he absolutely could have done (Gretna Green was a thing). She then decided to wait for him for MONTHS while knowingly pregnant before committing herself to tricking a man into marriage and she was prepare to lie her way into a marriage for the sake of her child. Certainly an understandable motive but it doesn't make her an innocent or a blameless victim. And she and her child were not, apparently, Pen's priority.

Ultimately, Marina wasn't ruined by lies or by being manipulated by someone else's deeds. She was ruined with truth and because of her own manipulations.

You judge Pen harshly. I do not. I don't think pointing out the fact that Pen had another option to allow Colin's fate to damn him will change that for either of us.

The thing is, it's not just the two options of outing Marina or letting Colin suffer his fate. I don't think the show can have it both ways: Either Pen is a sophisticated, resourceful operator who can keep her finger on the pulse of high society, run a highly successful business in secret despite a world of obstacles to that endeavor and stay one step ahead of the most powerful woman in the world, or she is not.

And I just refuse to accept the notion that someone as clever as Pen could only come up with the option of publishing Marina's secret as Lady Whistledown even with the limited time frame, or honestly think that was the best option. 

Yes, she is only a 17-year-old girl. But she is clearly no ordinary 17-year-old girl.

My read on the situation was that she wasn't just trying to save Colin from embarrassment. She went out of her way to punish Marina. She certainly could have hipped Colin to Marina already having been pregnant by telling Eloise or Violet directly, as an instance. She could have used a catspaw to get Anthony to stop the elopement. If she had to resort to Lady Whistledown, she could have either told a less devastating version of the truth or she could have written any number of things to get Colin to think twice while not destroying Marina as a person and likely condemning her and her child to lives as outcasts. 

The best spin to me is that Pen just got lost in the moment and didn't know what to do. But that doesn't seem to jibe with Pen in every other context as being very clever. It seems a far fairer reading to me that she wanted on some level to destroy her rival for Colin, and she was motivated at least in part by Marina essentially telling her to stay out of Marina's business the way she did.

[Roseanna]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The thing is, it's not just the two options of outing Marina or letting Colin suffer his fate. I don't think the show can have it both ways: Either Pen is a sophisticated, resourceful operator who can keep her finger on the pulse of high society, run a highly successful business in secret despite a world of obstacles to that endeavor and stay one step ahead of the most powerful woman in the world, or she is not.

And I just refuse to accept the notion that someone as clever as Pen could only come up with the option of publishing Marina's secret as Lady Whistledown even with the limited time frame, or honestly think that was the best option. 

Yes, she is only a 17-year-old girl. But she is clearly no ordinary 17-year-old girl.

My read on the situation was that she wasn't just trying to save Colin from embarrassment. She went out of her way to punish Marina. She certainly could have hipped Colin to Marina already having been pregnant by telling Eloise or Violet directly, as an instance. She could have used a catspaw to get Anthony to stop the elopement. If she had to resort to Lady Whistledown, she could have either told a less devastating version of the truth or she could have written any number of things to get Colin to think twice while not destroying Marina as a person and likely condemning her and her child to lives as outcasts. 

The best spin to me is that Pen just got lost in the moment and didn't know what to do. But that doesn't seem to jibe with Pen in every other context as being very clever. It seems a far fairer reading to me that she wanted on some level to destroy her rival for Colin, and she was motivated at least in part by Marina essentially telling her to stay out of Marina's business the way she did.

Bravo!