S01.E10: A Dream of a Dream

[paulvdb]

Quote

In the wake of a tragic death, Blackthorne finally considers the true nature of Toranaga's plan.

Premiere date: April 23, 2024.

[paigow]

[Interior: FX / Hulu / Disney boardroom]

Exec 1: Shogun is over budget. How can we save money?

Intern: Instead of spending cash on big battle stunts, somebody dreams that they won without actually fighting... so all the extras can be CGI....

[Raja]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

[Interior: FX / Hulu / Disney boardroom]

Exec 1: Shogun is over budget. How can we save money?

Intern: Instead of spending cash on big battle stunts, somebody dreams that they won without actually fighting... so all the extras can be CGI....

NBC did the same without CGI back in the day.

[Raja]

So after ending Lady Mariko's story we get the surrender of Blackthorne and the acceptance that he will be the Anjin forevermore. With his spoken Japanese really ramping up all of the sudden many samurai around him are showing up as political Christians and knowing Portuguese.  I guess like Yabushige many had different interpretations than Lady Mariko and let their lords know on the side.

In those last days with Lady Fuji I was shipping hard and hoping that she would stay on as the Anjin's consort. While Blackthorne in his grief of losing his translator went as far as ordering her to stay.  But like other situations she pivots with the no playa I will be a nun now.

[ofmd]

I really liked the ending. Most of all, how they acknowledged Toranaga basically being the same power-hungry ruler as everyone else (East or West). I'm not interested in watching battles. I understand many were hoping for the big one, but I didn't and was fine with their exposition.

Also, the rapport Blackthorne and Fuji had in the end. Nice touch with Mariko's widower basically making peace with him. The Blackthorne actor was half-decent. He really was the weak link of this show... Yabu killed it too, so to speak. But before we mourn him too hard, let's remember he loved to boil people to death.

[magdalene]

I thought this was the perfect ending to a beautifully crafted unconventional series. From Blackthorne hallucinating a return to England that never was to be for him, to the grace the ending gave to characters like Buntaro and Father Alvito who in a lesser show would have been straight-forward antagonists throughout.

I was thrilled to get such lovely scenes with Fuji and Blackthorne, absolutely thrilled, because Fuji and her actor had been such a stand-out for me all the way through the narrative.

Yabu-Shige got his just desserts - any sadness I feel for his fate is down to the marvelous performance by the actor. Yes, lets remember that he boiled an innocent young man alive.

Cosmo Jarvis was especially fine in the finale. I never thought he was a weak link of the cast. There was just less focus on him in this adaptation in comparison to the book and the old mini-series.

[aghst]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

So after ending Lady Mariko's story we get the surrender of Blackthorne and the acceptance that he will be the Anjin forevermore. With his spoken Japanese really ramping up all of the sudden many samurai around him are showing up as political Christians and knowing Portuguese.  I guess like Yabushige many had different interpretations than Lady Mariko and let their lords know on the side.

In those last days with Lady Fuji I was shipping hard and hoping that she would stay on as the Anjin's consort. While Blackthorne in his grief of losing his translator went as far as ordering her to stay.  But like other situations she pivots with the no playa I will be a nun now.

Well he didn't give her reasons to stay, like all those stolen glances he and Mariko exchanged.

Fuji might have been curious what made Mariko drop her kimono but Blackthorne was too preoccupied with the other one.

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

I really liked the ending. Most of all, how they acknowledged Toranaga basically being the same power-hungry ruler as everyone else (East or West). I'm not interested in watching battles. I understand many were hoping for the big one, but I didn't and was fine with their exposition.

Also, the rapport Blackthorne and Fuji had in the end. Nice touch with Mariko's widower basically making peace with him. The Blackthorne actor was half-decent. He really was the weak link of this show... Yabu killed it too, so to speak. But before we mourn him too hard, let's remember he loved to boil people to death.

 

Toranaga was the chess master.  He used  Mariko to break up the power Ishido had concentrated and got Ochiba to pull the rug out from under Ishido.

He also had the ship destroyed and will destroy the ship that Anjin rebuilds, partly for his amusement, partly to give Anjin purpose and in line.

 

33 minutes ago, magdalene said:

I thought this was the perfect ending to a beautifully crafted unconventional series. From Blackthorne hallucinating a return to England that never was to be for him, to the grace the ending gave to characters like Buntaro and Father Alvito who in a lesser show would have been straight-forward antagonists throughout.

I was thrilled to get such lovely scenes with Fuji and Blackthorne, absolutely thrilled, because Fuji and her actor had been such a stand-out for me all the way through the narrative.

Yabu-Shige got his just desserts - any sadness I feel for his fate is down to the marvelous performance by the actor. Yes, lets remember that he boiled an innocent young man alive.

Cosmo Jarvis was especially fine in the finale. I never thought he was a weak link of the cast. There was just less focus on him in this adaptation in comparison to the book and the old mini-series.

Yabu was remorseful.  She wasn't suppose to die.  But he owned up to his guilt and to the end he was true to his character, called out Toranaga.  But he didn't hesitate to do his duty.

 

[ofmd]

3 hours ago, magdalene said:

 From Blackthorne hallucinating a return to England that never was to be for him,

Oooh, I might have missed that. I took it to mean that after a long time in Japan, he did return to England, like I think his real-time counterpart did. Your interpretation is more elegant.

I agree with your post (sans Jarvis, whose performance imho had nothing to do with the writing), but most of all with this:

...to the grace the ending gave to characters like Buntaro and Father Alvito who in a lesser show would have been straight-forward antagonists throughout.

[tennisgurl]

I thought that this was a lovely, bittersweet ending, a lot of things were wrapped up while others are left open ended. I'm not sure whether that seeming flashforward to a much older Blackthorne was real or just his imagination, but we at least got closure for him and Mariko and some sort of ending to his story, whether its in Japan or back home. 

I am really glad that we got so many scenes between Blackthorne and Fuji, she's become one of my favorite characters, she's so sympathetic and I like the way their relationship grew. Its not romantic, but they do obviously care about each other, and I love that they both said goodbye to their deceased loved ones together. 

I am also glad that we got one last scene with Father Alvito, who, regardless of everything that the Portuguese have done, really does seem to care about doing gods work, unlike most of his fellows who just want power. He adds even more ambiguity to the story, no faction is all good or all bad. 

Overall, this was a lovely slow burn miniseries with great performances and atmosphere that explored a lot of interesting themes of power and culture clash. 

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, ofmd said:

Oooh, I might have missed that. I took it to mean that after a long time in Japan, he did return to England, like I think his real-time counterpart did. Your interpretation is more elegant.

Well, the real life person Blackthorne is based on never returned to England. He is buried in Japan. And in the novel he never did. And in this finale Toranaga basically states he would destroy any future ship if he needed to....

[MJ Frog]

14 hours ago, Raja said:

In those last days with Lady Fuji I was shipping hard and hoping that she would stay on as the Anjin's consort. While Blackthorne in his grief of losing his translator went as far as ordering her to stay.  But like other situations she pivots with the no playa I will be a nun now.

Yep. I was hoping the same. When she showed up to sit next to Blackthorne, that hit really hard for some reason. All I could think was what a welcome sight she would be in that awfulness. I really liked Lady Fuji.

[Haleth]

Fuji was one of my favorites too.  She carried so much sadness but found pleasure in a simple life.  Her scenes with Blackthorne were touching, they found a friendship based on mutual respect after so many months of not understanding each other.  Love and loss were two things they shared. 

Likewise Blackthorne and Buntaro coming to an accord.  No words spoken, they understood.

Another character I came to really like was Omi.  He was definitely un-Japanese in that he wore his emotions so plainly.  After his friend's (Toranaga's son's) death and the impending death of his uncle his grief was apparent.  The boy needed a hug.

This was the first episode that I got Cosmo Jarvis.  I do think Blackthorne may have eventually left Japan, maybe after Toranaga died?  I think those flash forwards were too specific to be imagined.  

When Blackthorne noticed Toranaga watching them pull the ship up and he gave a little "hmm", did it finally occur to him that Toranaga was the one who burned the ship?  Did he finally realize Toranaga had been manipulating him the whole time?  When Blackthorne had his rant and yelled about using Toranaga, all I could think was "oh, honey."  3D chess indeed.

I like how Toranaga achieved his goal without a flight.  He used people to create the best outcome.  But what would have happened if Mariko hadn't died?

 

[Raja]

25 minutes ago, Haleth said:

This was the first episode that I got Cosmo Jarvis.  I do think Blackthorne may have eventually left Japan, maybe after Toranaga died?  I think those flash forwards were too specific to be imagined. 

I think his dream since he set sail was to come back as the man who opened the Japan's to the English and Dutch breaking the Catholic monopoly. In a sense being Admiral Perry 250 years before the Americans  got there.  So the honored gentleman with his grandchildren marveling at his trophies while on his deathbed. In a way a mirror of the last days of the Taiko.

31 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Another character I came to really like was Omi.  He was definitely un-Japanese in that he wore his emotions so plainly.  After his friend's (Toranaga's son's) death and the impending death of his uncle his grief was apparent.  The boy needed a hug.

I am assuming the Lord Toranaga honored Yabushige's will and Lord Omi has inherited all of Izu. Maybe he has a spare cousin or sister he can marry off to the Anjin to keep Anjiro all in the family and closer to Lord Toranaga instead of trading her off for a new alliance.  But then she might be as mad as being assigned to the barbarian/hatamoto as Lady Fuji initially was only to be the best consort ever . 

37 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I like how Toranaga achieved his goal without a flight.  He used people to create the best outcome.  But what would have happened if Mariko hadn't died?

More like he won the fight before the sword was drawn. But there are sure to be plenty of widows, whose husbands died in battle so unlike Lady Fuji but more like where Lady Mariko thought she was for a few days.

  The demonstration by Lady Mariko was enough to see the start of stripping away of the political Catholic lord.  If the kidnap was successful we are given a story where Lady Ochiba doesn't withdraw the Taiko's army. But in the end other lords would know that even with the power of law it wasn't the heir but rather Ishido  who demanded support  and might still flip to Toranaga in sufficient numbers. It hadn't even been a generation since there was a more or less unified confederation in Japan.

[Constantinople]

Shogun does well in small scenes such as those between Blackthorne and Fuji but too often the political machinatuons don't make sense. If the writers have time for dream sequences about the elderly Blacktorne's life back in England with his grandsons, the writers have time to give better political explanations.

Toranaga is supposed to be a political mastermind yet he throws Hiromatsu's life away for nothing. No one was fooled by Toranaga pretending to give up except his own supporters and Father Alvito, the worst political pundit in history. Except the mask is off the moment Mariko tells Ishido she's taking two of the hostages with her.

Now we find out Toranaga is killing villagers for shits and giggles. According to Toranaga, who has no reason to lie since he's talking to the soon to be headless Yabushige, Toranaga likes keeping Blackthorne around for the lulz. However Toranaga also says he had to pretend he wasn't responsible for burning Blackthorne's ships to "test" Blackthorne. Thus Toranaga kept executing innocent villagers.

This makes no sense. Not only is Blackthorne in no position to defy Toranaga, just two episodes ago, after Toranaga sends Blackthorne and Yabushige to Osaka, Toranaga says Blackthorne and Yabushige are predictable. So killing innocent villagers in no way helps Toranaga. And this is the guy who allegedly wants peace.

It's one thing to act ruthlessly to achieve your goals, but it's another to act pointlessly. Toranaga has no qualms sending people to their death if it helps achieve his ambitions, but unlike Yabushige, Toranaga doesn't kill people just to see how the victim will react to prospect of their death.

I suppose it doesn't matter because, as they say in the land of the blind, the one eyed man is Shogun.

An example of Ishido's incompetence is that he doesn't want to wait bury Mariko but because it will delay the war. How? You can't just instantly march to war. You can start preparations and bury Mariko at the same time. Yet we're supposed to believe that a man who rose from the peasantry to the regency is a total idiot.

Nor can we explain any such delay on the 49 day rule. Toranaga got a 49 day breather because his son died. Mariko is not Toranaga's daughter.

We're also supposed to believe it was a political masterstroke that Mariko's mission to Osaka forced Ishido to release the hostages because otherwise they'd be revealed as such. Except hostage taking was routine and would continue during the Tokugawa shoganate. Everybody knew the drill, which also eliminates Ishido's motive for killing Mariko. Even if Ishido didn't intend to kill Mariko, her mission isn't a threat and thus she isn't.

For that matter, what was Mariko's end game other than doing her best to get herself killed? We're told, over and over, that her family name is under a cloud because her father killed Ochiba's father, the Taiko's predecessor. So how does Mariko finish her father's work, as Toranaga would say, by going to Osaka? The Taiko is already dead, so Mariko can't commit any act of vengeance against the man who killed her family. If Mariko is getting her revenge against the Taiko by undermining the regency and thus the Taiko's heir, she's no different than those who attribute her father's actions to her. And if she's trying to restore her family's name, why is she risk sleeping with the barbarian in Osaka of all places?

Speaking of the regency, what's the point of having one if the Ochiba has her own army answerable to her on the grounds she's the mother of the heir? This was the first I've heard of that. It makes sense that she would have influence, at least among those who wish or expect the Taiko's heir to succeed the Taiko, but her own army? That should have been mentioned earlier.

And why would Ochiba withdraw that army during a battle fought to determine whether the regents or Toranaga are in charge? Ochiba might be sick of Ishido, but siding with Toranaga is committing her son to political irrelevancy, at best. Nor can it be explained by Ochiba and Mariko's reconciliation. Putting the memory of her BFF before her own son would be House of the Dragon level stupidity.

There were many good scenes such as those between Fuji and Blackthorne, Yabushige, Omi, etc. I even enjoyed the idea of Toranaga metaphorically spilling his guts out to Yabushige just before Yabushige literally spills his guts out, until Toranaga oddly decided to stop on the grounds that Yabushige was a dead man.

But the politics was a mess.

[tallykat]

First, to settle whether Blackthorne returned to England or not, in his dream--yes it was a dream--he is holding Mariko's necklace in his hand as he lays dying. I doubt he dove into the bay to retrieve it after tossing it with Lady Fuji's family's ashes. Now if you want to argue that he was dreaming as he lay dying in England that he had Mariko's necklace in his hand...sorry, not buying it.

Put me in the "I like Cosmo" camp. Let's not forget that John Blackthorne was a barbarian. He wasn't high-born English. Although well-educated in his field, he still was just a cut above the other sailors that he eventually rejected. I think Jarvis played him as we saw him. Crude, quick-tempered, even oafish. He was such a contrast to the subdued Japanese that I wonder if he isn't getting a bad (acting) rap just for being a loud, obnoxious Englishman who wore his plans on his sleeves. Sorry, Anjin, you weren't fooling anybody. Toranaga used the fact that you were using him. The blast in the storeroom really knocked something out of him. Maybe not the last vestiges of Western culture, but whatever he was or wanted before, he seemed to be accepting his fate. I really loved his scene with Father Alvito where he said: "I didn't pray to your God or my God, just God..." Every scene with Lady Fuji was so perfect. His crude Japanese, his demanding that she stay as his consort in the weakest way. The boat. And her walking with him to meet Omi who took him to see Toranaga. Loved that replay of the earlier meeting where he refused to turn over his pistols. Yes, Cosmo Jarvis is no suave Richard Chamberlain, and I liked him for it.

23 hours ago, Raja said:

With his spoken Japanese really ramping up all of the sudden many samurai around him are showing up as political Christians and knowing Portuguese.

I didn't get that sense at all. One samurai as they were leaving Osaka told him in Portuguese that they were taking him to the dock. And then the samurai spy also spoke Portuguese, which I suppose he kept a secret because he was a spy. However, when Toranaga asked him to translate, he was way in over his head and said as much. I thought they did a good job of showing that Blackthorne was picking up the language--even in the earliest episodes where he learned words like "pull" and "row." And other small scenes, like riding with Mariko back to the village after cannon practice where he is asking her how to say certain things. His Japanese was still broken and basic at the end. 

I enjoyed the final scene with Yabushige. In the first miniseries, I remember it was an elaborate affair when he committed seppuku, but a nice long expository talk with Toranaga worked for me. "Why tell a dead man the future?" Because *we* need to know! Oh, and I also liked him pleaded to be killed another way. Did he get "fed to the fishes" in the end. It looked like his head definitely rolled off the cliff.

I look forward to listening to the audio book and figuring out all those little nuances--like tea ceremonies.

[Raja]

21 minutes ago, tallykat said:

I didn't get that sense at all. One samurai as they were leaving Osaka told him in Portuguese that they were taking him to the dock. And then the samurai spy also spoke Portuguese, which I suppose he kept a secret because he was a spy. However, when Toranaga asked him to translate, he was way in over his head and said as much.

What I got was a hesitant translator until Lord Toranaga told him to reveal himself as the spy. At which point he began to question things like do you mean hope or faith. With 2/5ths of the council nominally Christian and the access to Portuguese trade goods in play I think many more bilingual spies would be out and around.

Edited April 24 by Raja

[tallykat]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

However Toranaga also says he had to pretend he wasn't responsible for burning Blackthorne's ships to "test" Blackthorne. Thus Toranaga kept executing innocent villagers.

I didn't see this as an "If/Then." Toranaga told Blackthorne what he wanted to tell Blackthorne. Mostly to deflect that he ordered the burning of the ship. But I don't think he was necessarily also killing villagers to drive home that point.  I'm not sure if we were supposed to recognize any of the heads on the posts when Anjin returned to Anjiro. I got that sense that it was more because of Yabushige and his deceitfulness and the Christian lords who were aligned against him that he was cleaning out people that were traitors. I didn't get that it was willy nilly slaughter of innocent villagers.

 

14 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

If Mariko is getting her revenge against the Taiko by undermining the regency and thus the Taiko's heir, she's no different than those who attribute her father's actions to her.

Mariko was the servant of Toranaga. His goal was not to overthrow the heir, but to overthrow the regents. I very much think her goal was to die if it came to that, and it would very likely come to that. Her death at the gates would have been just as effective and she probably would have preferred that. I think that she believed her (and possibly her family's) redemption would come by her sacrificing her life for her lord.

19 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Speaking of the regency, what's the point of having one if the Ochiba has her own army answerable to her on the grounds she's the mother of the heir?

I think there's more to this than we see on the screen. She came back from Edo declaring that things were not happening fast enough and now the council would answer to her. It does seem that she had a lot of influence as the heir's mother (and the daughter of the previous ruler, let's not forget). Seeing how Ishido operated, maybe she did flip and decided to dump Ishido for Toranaga. Toranaga did say that it would be Ishido who showed up on the battlefield with no banner. She had the banner, but he had the army. 

It is confusing, however, what exactly will happen once Toranaga becomes Shogun. Does that leave room for the heir to become some sort of defacto ruler, like the Parliment and the Crown in England?

[Raja]

2 minutes ago, tallykat said:

But I don't think he was necessarily also killing villagers to drive home that point.  I'm not sure if we were supposed to recognize any of the heads on the posts when Anjin returned to Anjiro. I got that sense that it was more because of Yabushige and his deceitfulness and the Christian lords who were aligned against him that he was cleaning out people that were traitors

The details will come when I make my second watch of the episode in a few days but I thought the heads on the stakes had the distinctive samurai haircut.  I was surprised when Blackthorne and  Lord Toranaga where talking about ordinary villagers 

[Raja]

7 minutes ago, tallykat said:

It is confusing, however, what exactly will happen once Toranaga becomes Shogun. Does that leave room for the heir to become some sort of defacto ruler, like the Parliment and the Crown in England?

Becoming Shogun locks the heir out as he would have been Shogun being of noble birth to Lady Ochiba while the Taiko was up from the ranks like Lord Ishido and could only rise to Chief Regent. Winning the battle was only step one now the others would force the Emperor to call up Lord Toranaga much like King Charles nominally calls up the Prime Minister after an election today.

[mledawn]

21 hours ago, ofmd said:

Oooh, I might have missed that. I took it to mean that after a long time in Japan, he did return to England, like I think his real-time counterpart did. Your interpretation is more elegant.

I agree with your post (sans Jarvis, whose performance imho had nothing to do with the writing), but most of all with this:

...to the grace the ending gave to characters like Buntaro and Father Alvito who in a lesser show would have been straight-forward antagonists throughout.

The flash-forward Blackthorne held Mariko's rosary beads, but he dropped them in the lake with Fujiko. 

I really enjoyed the finale. I want to rewatch before commenting further but Toranaga and Fujiko were pitch perfect in this.

[magdalene]

In the official podcast they said Blackthorne's vision of the future was a dream, not his future.

[PatsyandEddie]

Simply put, I just want more. 

I know that the show ends where the novel does, but the characters are so compelling and beautifully acted that I want it to continue. 

[Heathrowe]

I’m so sad that Blackthorne doesn’t actually return to England! I had just taken those scenes on face value, though I did notice the cross.

10/10 for the series, 8/10 for the finale. I missed Mariko, she is a wonderful, mesmerizing character and actress.

i thought Cosmo Jarvis was great in the role. I read a lot about Tudor times and thought his was a very good portrayal of a man of the time. 

Lady Fuji. Glad those were cremains in the boxes - I had thought heads! I don’t know why, that’s pretty morbid. I’m glad she was able to move on from her tragedy in a way Lady Mariko never could. 

I’ll give the plot holes some grace in that Torunaga was obviously playing a very long game. He’s the craftiest man in Japan. Also a wonderful actor.

I would also like to say - this series surprised me multiple times and held my interest. These days that is saying a lot. Recommending to everyone.

Edited April 25 by Heathrowe

[officetemp]

1 hour ago, Heathrowe said:

Lady Fuji. Glad those were cremains in the boxes - I had thought heads! I don’t know why, that’s pretty morbid. I’m glad she was able to move on from her tragedy in a way Lady Marilou never could.

I was relieved that Fuji had a kinder fate in this series compared to the character's fate in the novel.  I seem to remember that that character spent the entire novel wanting to commit seppuku after the death of her spouse and infant child, but Toranaga wouldn't consent until he had achieved his aim (of preventing Blackthorne's departure from Japan), after which he gave her his permission and she killed herself "off-camera," so to speak.

I've been kind of wondering how old Fuji was supposed to have been?  As with other feudal/medieval societies, women were married off early, sometimes almost as soon as they experienced puberty.  I assume that the child who was killed had been her first.  So maybe she was in her teens?  But, having grown up in a Noble house, she would have been trained since infancy in what was expected of a wife and/or consort of a samurai lord.  Becoming a nun would give her some measure of peace for the remainder of her life.  I thought Blackthorne showed a lot of thoughfulness and great kindness in helping her scatter her loved-ones' ashes while he also commended Mariko's cross to the seas.

Enjoyed the series immensely.

Edited April 24 by officetemp

[paigow]

A big comedy opportunity would have been Toranaga trying to find enough angry fish for an execution...

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Heathrowe said:

Lady Fuji. Glad those were cremains in the boxes - I had thought heads!

Blackthorne must be an ancestor of Brad Pitt...

 

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, tallykat said:

I didn't see this as an "If/Then." Toranaga told Blackthorne what he wanted to tell Blackthorne. Mostly to deflect that he ordered the burning of the ship. But I don't think he was necessarily also killing villagers to drive home that point.  I'm not sure if we were supposed to recognize any of the heads on the posts when Anjin returned to Anjiro. I got that sense that it was more because of Yabushige and his deceitfulness and the Christian lords who were aligned against him that he was cleaning out people that were traitors. I didn't get that it was willy nilly slaughter of innocent villagers.

As Blackthorne is returning to the Ajiro from Osaka, he sees his burnt ship. Upon landing, Tonomoto Akinao, the spy, the explains that enemies, thought to be Christian, are responsible. As he walks through the village, Blackthorne sees several severed heads and a samurai beating up on a villager. Tonomoto Akinao, says Toranaga ordered it and there will be no rest in the village until they discover who aided the Christian raiders.

Toranaga admits later to Yabushige that he, Toranaga was responsible for torching Blackthorne's ship.

Toranaga doesn't need to justify torching Blackthorne's ship to any Japanese people, and Toranaga told Yabushige that Blackthorne wasn't important to keep alive. So there's no need to engage in the pantomime of offing a bunch of villagers as part of some ruse.

 

[Constantinople]

9 hours ago, tallykat said:

Mariko was the servant of Toranaga. His goal was not to overthrow the heir, but to overthrow the regents. I very much think her goal was to die if it came to that, and it would very likely come to that. Her death at the gates would have been just as effective and she probably would have preferred that. I think that she believed her (and possibly her family's) redemption would come by her sacrificing her life for her lord.

Toranaga's goal is to become Shogun. You don't go to all of the effort Toranaga has done to become Shogun and then turnover power to someone else's son. So his goal to overthrow the revenge and the heir.

As for Mariko, it's odd that she's seeking redemption for her and possibly her family while at the same time she's sleeping with Blackthorne in a castle controlled by Ishido. She has no idea who will see them together and what they'll do in response.

[aghst]

I enjoyed the series but it's a lot different in tone than my admittedly hazy memories of reading the book.

This series approaches the story with reverence and respect for Japanese feudal culture.  The show creators are being feted for rendering the delicate beauty of the culture, the unquestioning adherence to the code -- ultimate loyalty to the lord -- things like the tea ceremony.  They could have had images of beautiful origami and sushi.  Instead they showed the swords, the kimonos and the calligraphic documents, always folded perfectly, symmetrically.

The book had a lot of humor and irreverence, not always this reverential tone.  They would have a section narrated by peasants, who were talking about Golden Pavillions.  The Japanese characters in the show seem rigidly bound to the code and chain of command.  The only one who showed a lot of personality was Yabushige.

The desire between Mariko and Blackthorne was a big part of the book too, all of which went towards making the Japanese seem far more human, not these figures who seemed bound to play their role as servants.

They also showed the ugly side of humanity.  Yabushige seem to get sadistric pleasure from the screams of the man from Anjin's ship whom he had boiled alive.

Toranaga ordered everyone from the village to teach Anjin Japanese under pain of death if they failed.  Anjin was ready to kill Toranaga or kill himself, just so he wouldn't have the deaths of the villagers on his conscience.

The Toranaga of the show is more of an infallible, brilliant strategist and benevolent god-like figure.

It's one interpretation.  Maybe there was also a goal of not depicting any of the Japanese characters in a way which might cause offense.

[DoctorAtomic]

I thought old Blackthorne was weird because the real one stayed in Japan for the remainder of his life. I didn't realize it was the dream until he let the cross drop into the lake. 

 

I didn't think Toranaga burned the ship. Well played. They got me. 

Was that the end? Toranaga just says what's going to happen? 

I take the point that Toranaga wasn't going to win on the battlefield with lesser numbers, but I would have wanted to see that played out with the regents. 

I also would have liked a little more on how the heir pulled back at the end. I said earlier that the heir liked Toranaga so I can get it. I would have just liked a little more. 

I would have liked a glimpse into how Blackthorne actually spent his years in Japan. The Japans. 

 

 

 

 

 

[paigow]

 

 

3 hours ago, aghst said:

The Japanese characters in the show seem rigidly bound to the code and chain of command.

Yabushige: Why keep Anjin alive?

Toranaga: This is the way...

 

[magdalene]

 I read today that there is a special significance to that beautiful lake location where Blackthorne and Fuji commit the ashes of her family and Mariko's crucifix to the lake.   This is the real life place where author James Clavell's family committed his ashes.

[KarenX]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Was that the end? Toranaga just says what's going to happen?

Blackthorne has a dream… Toranaga has a dream… We know what happens in the book, we know what happened in history, but the show ends with a boat partially ashore and Anjin-sama telling everyone to rest now.

We can imagine whatever we like happening next to these characters.

[DoctorAtomic]

It's a television though. Your general audience doesn't know what happened in the book or history. You're not making a show for the people who know that. And I actually know that. They didn't stick the landing. 

In the real history that we do know, the Tokagawa Shogonate lasted quite a long time. You'd think the show might indicate that in some way. Toranaga wasn't just the guy who won this time around. They buried the lede on how total this victory was. 

 

 

[mledawn]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

It's a television though. Your general audience doesn't know what happened in the book or history. You're not making a show for the people who know that. And I actually know that. They didn't stick the landing. 

This is what happened in the book, though, isn't it? Clavell just writes out what happened going forward in about 10 pages at the end of a 1200 page novel. Toranaga was the exposition fairy at the end, telling Yabu before he died. 

 

@magdalene Clavell's daughter Michaela was one of the executive producers on the show and she was interviewed on the official podcast. She said she spent her formative years on that lake and her father's ashes were spread there. It was interesting and sort of surprising no one in the production seemed to know that, but perhaps the host (Emily Yoshida, i think?) was just pretending for the pod.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, mledawn said:

This is what happened in the book, though, isn't it?

I don't know. I didn't read the book. So what if it was. The TV production could show some more scenes of what Toranaga was talking about or Blackthorne if they wanted. I'm not saying to change any of the characters fates. 

We've seen a lot of the regents and seeing them turning on Ishido would have been interesting, for example. 

It's just an odd way to end the show for me. 

Edited April 25 by DoctorAtomic

[magdalene]

Were people upset back in the day that the  actual battle wasn't shown? I didn't read the book and watch the original until the nineties. I do know the book was a big bestseller and the mini-series a huge hit.

I love the ending because it is unconventional and it is quite true to both the novel and the mini-series.

[Haleth]

For me it was enough to see the look on Ishido’s face when he read the note and realized he was alone.  Oops. 

[mledawn]

58 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't know. I didn't read the book. So what if it was.

Because your post I replied to said that the general audience didn't know what happened in the book. I was commenting on my understanding that the book viewer and the no-book viewer had the same amount of info.

The fact that you didn't like it is of course fair regardless.

[DoctorAtomic]

I should clarify. I thoroughly enjoyed the series, or I wouldn't have commented on it so much. It's great that it was weekly because we could let the show breathe and talk about a lot of details versus binging. I don't think we'd enjoy some of the characters who didn't have a ton of screen time. 

Not showing the battle was the right narrative choice. Winning the battle before it even starts is the central tenent of The Art of War and shows how Toranaga was just in a completely different paradigm. 

How that all unfolded, would have been interesting to actually see than just being told. 

8 hours ago, Haleth said:

For me it was enough to see the look on Ishido’s face when he read the note and realized he was alone.  Oops. 

I would have liked to see that build up to pay off. 

Really, the Heir pulling back the banner, therefore making Ishido's gambit unlawful, could have used a little bit more. Toranaga just telling Yabu, "Oh, she flipped at the end and will pull the banner and support of Ishido" doesn't measure up to the quality of the series. 

Mariko dying was the huge turning point. I would have liked to see one scene where the decision is made to pull the banner, and then another when the rest of the regents realize that all their christian nonsense cost them. I don't need to see them blowing before Toranaga; just the realization that their fixation on Blackthorne cost them. 

I'm talking maybe 30 more minutes if that. I wouldn't say I didn't not like it, but they didn't quite stock the landing. 

 

[KarenX]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 I'm talking maybe 30 more minutes if that. I wouldn't say I didn't not like it, but they didn't quite stick the landing. 

 

Something was off for sure. I have a whole TED Talk ready that I’ll keep to myself about the writing or maybe editing of this episode. The plot at the village simply did not make sense.

I loved the series. I loved the character development. I loved the scenery and the imagery. I love where we ended in the story. I am happy to end with everyone paused on a precipice, waiting for the next thing to happen, in the moment where all dreams could come true.

They stuck the landing!

But the writing went awry. I’m not sure what happened with that script. Like I don’t even know where to start with the Toranaga/Blackthorne/Erasmus/Seppuku/FishermanSpy debacle. 

Luckily, I care more about emotions and character relationships than plot. :)

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 4/24/2024 at 3:58 PM, Constantinople said:

Except hostage taking was routine and would continue during the Tokugawa shoganate.

It wouldn't just continue, it would be an official, widely used policy and arguably one of the key factors why the shogunate managed to survive for 250 years. The show presenting hostage taking as some outrageous idea that only the uncouth bureaucrat Ishido would consider acceptable is typical Hollywood nonsense.

Toranaga somehow knowing exactly when and where the decisive battle would be did make me chuckle, I admit. This kind of "sounds cool but is actually nonsense" supposed political genius is the show's Achilles heel. So many well crafted character moments marred by the comedy of errors that passed for political intrigue.

So why is Ochiba cool with Toranaga now? I get that she realized Ishido is literally too stupid to live (which begs the question why she allied with him in the first place) but what happened to her burning hatred for Toranaga? Why not use Ishido to get rid of Toranaga and then get rid of him too?

Speaking of uncouth, Toranaga claims Blackthorne amuses him? Bro, you really need to raise your standards of entertainment. Your own wife alone is far more amusing that Blackthorne could ever be and you can hire just about any comedian, you know.

Fuji didn't die, yay! And got rid of Blackthorne! Lucky girl.

[Raja]

12 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

It wouldn't just continue, it would be an official, widely used policy and arguably one of the key factors why the shogunate managed to survive for 250 years. The show presenting hostage taking as some outrageous idea that only the uncouth bureaucrat Ishido would consider acceptable is typical Hollywood nonsense.

Perhaps the difference is that Toranaga was sent out as a hostage like Lady Mariko was sent to Buntaro  as his wife and Lady Fuji to the hatamoto as his consort. Being "taken" hostage is beyond the diplomatic norms in the Japans.

16 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Toranaga somehow knowing exactly when and where the decisive battle would be did make me chuckle, I admit. This kind of "sounds cool but is actually nonsense

You know that Isido, he is just a predictable bureaucrat. He has to come attack Lord Toranaga before more clans breakaway because he took their diplomatic mission to the heir hostage. And there can only be one place my screen will funnel the enemy to. But that is to much talk for the  narrator.

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

and then another when the rest of the regents realize that all their christian nonsense cost them

At this point they haven't lost, Lord Isido lost. Even before he gave them  2/5ths of the council the Taiko had already started taking steps against the Christians. For the Catholics a heretic lives among them , but he has been neutered without the Royal Navy coming to back him up.. Getting to a noticeable Christian loss would be the unwritten sequel featuring one of Lord Toranaga's other sons that folks have been clamoring for.

[aghst]

Why does hostage-taking work?

Lords are ready to discard lives and those who serve them are only too eager to take their own lives.

A rival takes a lord's wife consort or son?  Toranaga can get any number of wives and as pointed out, he has many sons as well.

Edited April 26 by aghst

[Raja]

39 minutes ago, aghst said:

Why does hostage-taking work?

Lords are ready to discard lives and those who serve them are only too eager to take their own lives.

A rival takes a lord's wife consort or son?  Toranaga can get any number of wives and as pointed out, he has many sons as well.

Sometimes it does work as a vassal under Lady Ochiba's father only  Lord Toranaga understood that Mariko was a hostage  holding Lady Ochiba not him in check 

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, aghst said:

Why does hostage-taking work?

Lords are ready to discard lives and those who serve them are only too eager to take their own lives.

A rival takes a lord's wife consort or son?  Toranaga can get any number of wives and as pointed out, he has many sons as well.

I have often wondered the same things, but hostage-taking in this form was common throughout the ancient world, and is apparently used even in modern times:

Hostage Diplomacy

[paigow]

TV Gangsters swap hostages all the time... Not for ransom, but as good faith gesture during negotiations. Fargo, Burn Notice and many others

[DoctorAtomic]

On 4/25/2024 at 9:42 PM, Raja said:

At this point they haven't lost, Lord Isido lost. 

I only meant that Toranaga let Blackthorne go around being a barbarian and the other christian regents were obsessing over him when Ishido could have been getting them behind him much more strongly. The council itself was continually weakened by Toranaga just a little here and there so that the battle never had to be fought. 

[pasdetrois]

Although I was frequently lost by the political machinations, I enjoyed this remake. Great performances, production values, and the right note of human frailty and strength throughout. I loved the portrayal of the quietly determined Lady Mariko. Talk about a long game.