S01.E08: Abyss of Life

[paulvdb]

Quote

Toranaga's defeated clan moves to Edo and awaits their fate. Blackthorne must decide who he fights for - the lord who has turned his back on him, or the ambition that brought him to Japan in the first place.

Premiere date: April 9, 2024

[paigow]

Who would have guessed that Toranaga created the premise for Sister Act ?

Put a Catholic church at the corner of Sodom & Gomorrah... Hijinks ensue...

[Raja]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

Who would have guessed that Toranaga created the premise for Sister Act ?

Put a Catholic church at the corner of Sodom & Gomorrah... Hijinks ensue...

It is both the best of locations and the worst of locations. I guess it depends upon the type of mission you are running.

So the son bought his father time and allowed him to concentrate his home guard army with the survivors of the earthquake during an entire mourning period. But the extreme secrecy is bothering, as if that army marching to a ceremonial surrender could have extensive plans ready to launch.  Ready to die because I know you have a plan. Perhaps the Crimson Sky was rehearsed when we first heard the term. 

With the two that are not really in the clan, Lord Yabushige and the hatamoto heading off on a naval raid.  The son Buntaro and nephew Lord Omi remain with the main force. I am guessing at this point only Lady Mariko knows the plan unless it was  in the letter/ writen orders sending her  to sea to be Anjin's interpreter.

[mledawn]

Enjoyed this episode if only to finally get confirmation that Toranaga has a plan. It's devastating that he lost Hiromatsu in the process, but I guess it's all in support of the bigger picture... It was interesting that Toranaga knew what his two vassals would do, he knew what Blackthorne would do, but he didn't know what Hiromatsu would do. Hiromatsu denying Buntaro's request to accompany him was a nice burn, but having Buntaro as a second ensured Hiromatsu would die quickly.

I liked how the show has changed the involvement of Blackthorne's crew and with this change still given us more backstory regarding his ambitious nature. Hearing it from Mariko was one thing (as she read his rutter) but hearing it from a crewmember was something else. 

Loved Father Alvito being so happy to get his great parcel of land and then realising who his neighbours were. The men showing him the plot seemed pleased.

[ofmd]

My favorite moment: "'Those are your neighbors..." Mwahaha.

I'm very confused. I figured this was all a great ruse, but am I really to believe he sacrificed his son and heir? Or was that just an unscripted bonus?

I'm guessing Blackthorne's job is to keep Yobu busy and to bring the navy to the battle.

The actor who plays Buntaro gave great performances, making a despicable character nuanced and almost sympathetic.

Second favorite moment: "You will know what it means to be denied."

I'm really thrilled to see so many unknown (to me) great actors. I even like Yobu's hamminess. Heck, I'd like him if it wasn't for his boiling kink.

Edited April 9 by ofmd

[Raja]

1 hour ago, ofmd said:

My favorite moment: "'Those are your neighbors..." Mwahaha.

I'm very confused. I figured this was all a great ruse, but am I really to believe he sacrificed his son and heir? Or was that just an unscripted bonus?

I'm guessing Blackthorne's job is to keep Yobu busy and to bring the navy to the battle.

The actor who plays Buntaro gave great performances, making a despicable character nuanced and almost sympathetic.

Second favorite moment: "You will know what it means to be denied."

I'm really thrilled to see so many unknown (to me) great actors. I even like Yobu's hamminess. Heck, I'd like him if it wasn't for his boiling kink.

I think his son went on his own again but Lord Toranaga made use of thr mourning period. I don't think he was the heir given his father's age but a baby spare in case unmet older brothers pass away 

[DoctorAtomic]

Ironic that if they have to wait 49 days for mourning, then Toranaga bought even more time. And then he says it at the end! 

I wasn't wasn't the only one not buying the "Toranaga is sick" "peaceful death ruse. "He's going to fight. No way he sends that guy to Osaka!" I didn't think he would go as so far as letting his best friend seppuku, but that's some cold calculating. Toranaga playing everyone like a month ahead. 

It's kind of the same thing as Toranaga betting on Blackthorne to outrun the Black Ship. 

I guess making tea one time doesn't make up for the fact your wife loathes you. What a burn from Mariko. 

Blackthorne seems to have learned a lot more Japanese from last week. 

I wasn't quite getting that Toranaga relieved Blackthorne of his hatamoto duties? 

Kind of short on Mariko's part to not clue in Blackthorne that the others think Toranaga is up to something. He would have come around. To think he should inherently be able to grasp what's going on isn't entirely fair. Unless that was by design, which in hindsight, I'm thinking. 

I really am enjoying seeing the swamp Edo is knowing firsthand what Tokyo is like. And building the palace, which I've been to. 

[Pi237]

8 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 

I guess making tea one time doesn't make up for the fact your wife loathes you. What a burn from Mariko. 

 

Seriously. I thought she was warming up to him, and then, she basically said “I’d rather be viciously murdered a thousand times than commit suicide with you”

Id go insane in this society where no one ever says what they really mean, and it’s up to you to decipher their intent. 
 

Seeing Blackthorne physically recoil from his shipmate was a nice contrast to when he was shocked they wanted him to shower when he’d already showered that week lol. 

[Haleth]

Omigosh, the tension was palpable in this episode.  I was horrified that Hiromatsu killed himself with Toranaga watching.  (Such great acting with their eyes speaking more than their mouths.)  And then learning it was part of a plan?  Heartbreaking.  I'm a bit confused about this plan though.  Was the point of Hiromatsu's action to repel Yabushige and make him take the canons to Osaka?  So when Toranaga marches the canons will already be there to turn on the city?

The young actor playing Omi was a standout in this episode.  His grief over Nagakado's death and his alarm as Hiromatsu argued with Toranaga were well acted.

19 hours ago, ofmd said:

The actor who plays Buntaro gave great performances, making a despicable character nuanced and almost sympathetic.

Yes!  Him too!  I actually felt sorry for him when Mariko said what she said to him. 

It seems like Blackthorne is totally irrelevant at this point.

[Raja]

11 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I wasn't quite getting that Toranaga relieved Blackthorne of his hatamoto duties? 

Blackthorne by this point knew that as Lord Toranaga's hatamoto he would be among the class required to kill himself.  Being released he became a Ronin and offered his services to Lord Yabushige, who isn't part of the clan but allied his clan to Isido and Toranaga's as circumstances changed.

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Omigosh, the tension was palpable in this episode.  I was horrified that Hiromatsu killed himself with Toranaga watching.  (Such great acting with their eyes speaking more than their mouths.)  And then learning it was part of a plan?  Heartbreaking.  I'm a bit confused about this plan though.  Was the point of Hiromatsu's action to repel Yabushige and make him take the canons to Osaka?  So when Toranaga marches the canons will already be there to turn on the city?

I thought keeping Lord Yabushige was a secondary goal, the primary mission to make Lord Ishido think that he had truly given up. But then he heard that Blackthorne did indeed link up with Lord Yabushige he sent or loaned Lady Mariko out to translate, with written orders. If like any other nation with say the US War Plan Orange before WWII I think Crimson Sky was a long held war plan and the canons had just washed up onshore one day.

Edited April 10 by Raja

[paigow]

Hiromatsu became Phil Coulson... uniting the bickering Avengers via his martyrdom...

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Was the point of Hiromatsu's action to repel Yabushige and make him take the canons to Osaka? 

I think Toranaga set up the grand surrender last time to make a big show for Blackthorne to storm out and stew around to eventually team up with Yabu. So, yes. 

I don't think he thought his old pal was going to seppuku, but he already went all in. He couldn't let the bluff be called. 

Now Blackthorne and Yabu are in the wind without anyone else knowing. They're his wild cards.

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Yes!  Him too!  I actually felt sorry for him when Mariko said what she said to him. 

I didn't. Maybe don't beat her. 

2 hours ago, Raja said:

But then he heard that Blackthorne did indeed link up with Lord Yabushige he sent or loaned Lady Mariko out to translate, with written orders.

He didn't necessarily just 'hear'. There's a scene where he asks Mariko "did they ally yet?" Or "Did anjin go to Yabu yet?" He was playing that since he released Blackthorne. It wasn't entirely clear to me that he was released. I asked upthread. But that makes more sense now that releasing him frees him up to ally with Yabu. 

The whole point of being all giving up was to convince Ishido that he was completely defeated, but also giving cover to Blackthorne. I'd say it was more one within the other. 

[buttersister]

The actor who plays Toranaga is giving a masterclass.

[Jack Shaftoe]

So let me get this straight - Toranaga is so keen on preserving secrecy that he doesn't even tell his best friend and most loyal supporter about his (not so) cunning plan. Said supporter promptly kills himself because he thinks the ruse is a reality or because he suspects what's up and wants to make it more real. Then Toranaga casually spills the beans to Mariko anyway lest viewers be confused for a week?!?

If Tokugawa Ieyasu had been such a rank amateur as Toranaga Yoshi, there would never have been a Tokugawa Shogunate.

Considering how clueless Ishido is, this Byzantine plan of Toranaga's seems completely unnecessary. And since this is television his dumb plan is going to work and no one is going to give a fuck that he lost his best friend for no reason. Speaking of Ishido and company, they had Toranaga at their mercy but allowed him to go back his power base because they respect his grief that much? Seriously? They could have ,you know, arrested him and sent him to Osaka rather than wait for him to make up his mind like total fools.

Why is that crew member whining about Blackthorne? Bro, you signed up for a privateer ship, you don't get to complain if it, you know, goes around the world looking for rich targets to rob. And the captain decides where a ship goes, not the pilot. Of course, Blackthorne being the Rude Englishman (tm) that he is had to beat him half to death.

I was hoping they were going to deconstruct the glorification of seppuku but this wasn't the case in this episode.

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Speaking of Ishido and company, they had Toranaga at their mercy but allowed him to go back his power base because they respect his grief that much? Seriously?

Ishido must have seen Troy

[CatWarmer]

6 hours ago, paigow said:

Hiromatsu became Phil Coulson... uniting the bickering Avengers via his martyrdom...

So you're saying Hiromatsu went to...Tahiti?

[Raja]

On 4/10/2024 at 10:15 AM, paigow said:

Ishido must have seen Troy

Or the hatamoto told another story about a battle in which he didn't fight in

Edited April 12 by Raja

[paigow]

5 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

So you're saying Hiromatsu went to...Tahiti?

Only if Agents Of S.H.O.G.U.N. gets greenlit

[ofmd]

19 hours ago, paigow said:

Ishido must have seen Troy

I mean, he really might have read it... The Ilias, that is.

Edited April 11 by ofmd

[aghst]

The coughing was method acting.  Toranaga was doing it on the other side of those shoji walls.

But they think he's at death's door because of a little cough?

Well he leaned on his servant as he walked, like he was going to fall over.

So no such thing as an inner circle with Toranaga.  He's not telling anyone else his strategy, even if his most loyal right-hand man threatens to commit seppuku.

He looks at his people like they're birds of prey.  But he only respects the peregrines.

Doesn't the Church try to reform everyone?  So maybe being next to the tea house isn't so bad.  Not only that, the movers and shakers go to visit these courtesans so the Father can use that?

[gaelgirl]

23 hours ago, buttersister said:

The actor who plays Toranaga is giving a masterclass.

If Hiroyuki Sanada doesn't win an Emmy for his portrayal of Toranaga, there is no justice in Hollywood. I liked him The Last Samurai and John Wick, but dude can act and not just do action flicks!

[seacliffsal]

I had the impression that the general knew what Tonanaga was planning and that the sepuku was part of the plan.  That Ishido had to be convinced that Tonanaga was defeated to the point that his generals/followers were upset and willing to turn on him.  The way the general forbade his son was commiting sepuku and then the later comments from Tonanaga led me to think this (only his son's death was unplanned yet helped me gain time).  Also, the tears in Tonanaga's eyes instead of anger if the betrayal was real.

I think it may be the way the actor is playing Blackburn, but I find him the least interesting part of the story and am dumbfounded that Mariko seems to be in love with him.  Maybe she just prefers European men?  I've got nothing... 

[DoctorAtomic]

3 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Also, the tears in Tonanaga's eyes instead of anger if the betrayal was real.

They were definitely real, but I thought it was more, "oh, I can't believe I have to let him go." I wouldn't call bull if the seppuku was staged. The guy was old, and I could see him giving it up to seal the victory for his old friend Toranaga. However, this is a good quality show; I think they would have tipped us off sometime beforehand in the episode. 

3 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Maybe she just prefers European men?  I've got nothing... 

Don't forget she saw him starkers when she followed him to the hot spring. 

[Raja]

4 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I

I think it may be the way the actor is playing Blackburn, but I find him the least interesting part of the story and am dumbfounded that Mariko seems to be in love with him.  Maybe she just prefers European men?  I've got nothing... 

Her father married her off down  instead of up or at least a lateral move. And after his treason she wasn't going back up. Enter the hatamoto who wasn't going to touch his grieving consort and didn’t care about societal standards in the Japans.

[Constantinople]

I guess we'll find out next week, but I'm not sure what the point of Toranaga's ruse is. The Information Superhighway tells me it's a little over 300 miles from Tokyo to Osaka. It's a bit difficult to sneak up to a place 300 miles away while you're accompanied by an army.

I also don't understand how the extra time benefits Toranaga that much. It will help those injured by the earthquake, but for bless his brother really is working with Toranaga, it doesn't seem as if he'll have enough men unless

(Game of Thrones spoiler)

Spoiler

Sansa Stark sends a raven to Littlefinger at the Eyrie

 

Edited April 12 by Constantinople

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

(Game of Thrones spoiler)

because Toranaga is Dothraki Google Translate of Targaryen...Dracaris!

[DoctorAtomic]

51 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I guess we'll find out next week, but I'm not sure what the point of Toranaga's ruse is. The Information Superhighway tells me it's a little over 300 miles from Tokyo to Osaka. It's a bit difficult to sneak up to a place 300 miles away while you're accompanied by an army.

That's the whole point though. Everyone is occupied with the army crawling along. No one is paying attention to Riggs and MurtaughYabu and Blackthorne sidling up with the cannon, and no one knows the range of the cannon. 

Given the huge, literally half century legend of Toranaga in battle, he's got to convince people he's completely given up and is totally desolate. The whole clan is in disarray. 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I guess we'll find out next week, but I'm not sure what the point of Toranaga's ruse is. The Information Superhighway tells me it's a little over 300 miles from Tokyo to Osaka. It's a bit difficult to sneak up to a place 300 miles away while you're accompanied by an army.

I also don't understand how the extra time benefits Toranaga that much. It will help those injured by the earthquake, but for bless his brother really is working with Toranaga, it doesn't seem as if he'll have enough men unless

I guess the spies watching Lord Toranaga walk with the aid of a helper and cough didn't notice that half of his Generals remain in armor presumably with their units getting ready to strike. I would normally say that the time was used to rehearse their battle but we are left to believe that all the war gaming is going on inside of Toranaga's head alone while his senior people worked on their wills.

What is unknown is how much combat power does Lord Ishido have in Osaka? With the Regents being held hostage part of it would have to be split off to guard against their clans since they now can't be depended upon to follow the council

[MJ Frog]

8 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

I had the impression that the general knew what Tonanaga was planning and that the sepuku was part of the plan.

This was my impression also. I'm sticking by it.

[paigow]

20 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

am dumbfounded that Mariko seems to be in love with him.  Maybe she just prefers European men?  I've got nothing... 

Maybe her name translates to Fleabag - every priest she met was hot...

[Raja]

Is anyone not hot? Even the woman hanging on Blackthorne's sailor. I would rather hang with her than take a chance at capturing a Portuguese ship or just avoiding them to get back home.

[Constantinople]

21 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

That's the whole point though. Everyone is occupied with the army crawling along. No one is paying attention to Riggs and MurtaughYabu and Blackthorne sidling up with the cannon, and no one knows the range of the cannon. 

Given the huge, literally half century legend of Toranaga in battle, he's got to convince people he's completely given up and is totally desolate. The whole clan is in disarray. 

Absent a storm, Yabushige and Blackthorne will get to Osaka long before Toranaga and his army. If Y&B start blasting away at Obama's walls it will give the game away and they won't have enough men on the ship to take advantage of whatever damage the cannon causes because most of those men will be needed to sail the boat or fire the guns or both.

[DoctorAtomic]

Blackthorne wanted to go pirating against the Portuguese before, and Toranaga refused his request. If they go do that, then they're drawing forces away from Osaka because the catholic regents would have to do something to engage.  

[Raja]

Not knowing exactly how forces are organized Osaka is the realm of the Taiko and as leader of the council Lord Isidro has some say there. With the "bandit" attacks he took some responsibility because he was supposed to protect the home of the heir.

But beyond an Honor Guard would the other Regents have forces in Osaka or would they be at home like Lord Toranaga's were in Edo, when being ordered to Osaka to surrender and have the senior leadership to kill themselves

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think the other regents would have considerable forces in Osaka either. Maybe the catholic regents would have some security forces for the Portuguese. I don't think there was any piracy in that part of the world then, so there probably isn't any navy to speak of. 

None of them are aware of the range of Blackthorne's canon. I would think they have a false sense that the castle is unassailable. 

[Raja]

20 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't think there was any piracy in that part of the world then, so there probably isn't any navy to speak of. 

The Korean Navy had a large role in cutting the Taiko's supply line in the Japanese attempts to take Korea

[DoctorAtomic]

All right then. More reason that the catholic regents might have some naval power there. 

I meant piracy like there was on the other side of the world with the governments issuing the letters of marque to the Erasmus, for example, to subcontract hostilities without the governments declaring war. 

[paigow]

Jack Sparrow is probably in India... Maybe he ends up capturing The Black Ship...

[pasdetrois]

On 4/10/2024 at 7:48 AM, Haleth said:

(Such great acting with their eyes speaking more than their mouths.)

Yes, and that exquisitely painful tea service between husband and wife. A great episode.