S01.E07: A Stick of Time

[paulvdb]

Quote

Outplayed by new alliances in Osaka, Toranaga is forced to carve out a new deal with a long lost family member.

Premiere date: April 2, 2024

[Raja]

Lord Toranaga on his heels surrendering. That set up with his brother's army funneling down to the coast had me wondering where are the canon. They can't be pulling the same trick again.

With the entire clan getting ready for either fight to the death, as shown by a wounded lady Fuji preparing or half the leaders will all kill themselves and Blackthorne eyeing that large galley at least the hatamoto, who is not from a suicide upon surrender society is looking for an option.

Does Lady Kiku and the Willow World survive? They were in Lord Toranaga's will and let the son in for his failed ambush. But I think the rest of the army must be ready to fight while their enemy was pillowing.

Poor Buntaro, his last wish is to kill the barbarian, but not his wife before dying. That Lord Toranaga allows some chaos to distract him as he tries to figure a way to get out of the noose around his army's neck

[mledawn]

This episode was so frustrating. I don't think the audience has seen enough of Toranaga being the great tactician/strategist to have any dramatic effect with the surrender.

I'm not sure why the writers have chosen to make Blackthorne so insufferable but he was definitely not this bad in the book. He is completely unable to just sit back and listen/pay attention to what is happening around him. He's almost completely unlikeable in this version, however; I did laugh at the "This appears to be occurring..." as he got into the 'swordfight' on the beach with Yabu.

 

Edited April 2 by mledawn

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, mledawn said:

This episode was so frustrating. I don't think the audience has seen enough of Toranaga being the great tactician/strategist to have any dramatic effect with the surrender.

Depends on how true the flashback was... If the battle was unwinnable from the start, then Toranaga was never going to lose; however, if that was merely posturing, young Toranaga was a genius. 

 

[Raja]

25 minutes ago, mledawn said:

This episode was so frustrating. I don't think the audience has seen enough of Toranaga being the great tactician/strategist to have any dramatic effect with the surrender.

I'm not sure why the writers have chosen to make Blackthorne so insufferable but he was definitely not this bad in the book.

 

He does seem checkmated,  with us only told about brilliance as he climbed the ranks. I can only guess that while they missed Lord Toranaga's brother the rest of his army's leadership got taken out.

As for Blackthorne to portray him like Richard Chamberlain would probably lead to howls about the great white savior. As an English officer and up from the ranks gentleman he can be as insufferable, just different,  as Lord Omi and the other samurai.

[mledawn]

 

30 minutes ago, Raja said:

He does seem checkmated,  with us only told about brilliance as he climbed the ranks. I can only guess that while they missed Lord Toranaga's brother the rest of his army's leadership got taken out.

There is the conversation by Gin to Omi about how Toranaga's brother got past the guards, implying it was suspicious, which I did like. The Ladies of the Willow World are attuned to many things.

32 minutes ago, Raja said:

As for Blackthorne to portray him like Richard Chamberlain would probably lead to howls about the great white savior. As an English officer and up from the ranks gentleman he can be as insufferable, just different,  as Lord Omi and the other samurai.

Understood - I was more comparing it to his character in the book (I haven't seen the old miniseries, just screenshots/clips). His intelligence is important as we experience how he navigates his strange new world. He has his outbursts and misunderstandings but he is more thoughtful and picks up on social cues much quicker. BookBlackthorne would not need to be reminded by Mariko to bow, for example. He picks up on bowing and its importance very early. He is the only one to see that it's Toranaga in the palanquin and not Kiri (the equivalent scene is in the first episode of this series, much more watered-down). He just isn't as strong a character here, which is both fine and frustrating I guess! 

[Raja]

3 hours ago, paigow said:

Depends on how true the flashback was... If the battle was unwinnable from the start, then Toranaga was never going to lose; however, if that was merely posturing, young Toranaga was a genius. 

 

All that I got from the flashbacks was that Lord Toranaga has been at this for 46 years and when it got told the legend forgot that the boy lord was not able to cleanly euthanize the surrendering General 

[aghst]

They need the brother's army to have a chance against Ishido.

But since the brother has already aligned himself with Ishido, it sounds like checkmate unless deus ex machina and there's another hidden army which is loyal to Toronaga.

Or maybe an even bigger earthquake in Osaka.

Even if Blackthorne is the greatest naval tactician, how is one ship going to go up against thousands, many of them wielding arrows and probably some other range weapons?

His ship would need an army to keep the enemy forces engaged so it can freely lob cannonballs at strategic targets.

Cannon is not for taking out thousands of soldiers on foot, despite the scene earlier in the series, unless the soldiers are hiding in a fort and the cannon is mostly to knock out the fortifications.

[DoctorAtomic]

I got a good laugh out of Toranaga sniping about the price of the courtesan and Mariko, "You should have heard her opening price!" And then everyone telling Blackthorne to shut his yap and behave at dinner. 

I noticed in the background at the dinner that Blackthorne was leaning his head to Mariko to hear what was going on. Good for the actor for playing the whole scene even though he's not the focus. 

Even with the brother being regent, don't they still need another for a full five? I thought the guy they killed at the end of last week was the regent that wouldn't vote the actor in. 

Not great on Toranaga to yell at Mariko. He asked her in the first place to deal with Blackthorne. Although I think he was pushing her to admit she's hot for him. 

Either Blackthorne wasn't buying the Toranaga surrender or Toranaga surrendered because he knew exactly how Blackthorne was going to react. 

3 hours ago, mledawn said:

There is the conversation by Gin to Omi about how Toranaga's brother got past the guards, implying it was suspicious, which I did like.

She flat out said it to Toranaga himself during their meeting. Neither she nor I were buying it. I at least have the hindsight of history. He's been at it for nearly a half century. He's just buying time. 

56 minutes ago, aghst said:

Cannon is not for taking out thousands of soldiers on foot, despite the scene earlier in the series, unless the soldiers are hiding in a fort and the cannon is mostly to knock out the fortifications.

I assumed the intent was to assail Osaka castle itself with the cannon. They said as much in one of the first training exercises. With the cannon having a longer range, also mentioned, this could keep the ship out of range of any arrows. 

I don't necessarily think you need armies anyway. It's too obvious and Toranaga has no advantage there. Right now, he's got an armed escort to Osaka. That's the only way he can get into the castle. All bets are off after that. 

3 hours ago, mledawn said:

Understood - I was more comparing it to his character in the book (I haven't seen the old miniseries, just screenshots/clips). His intelligence is important as we experience how he navigates his strange new world. He has his outbursts and misunderstandings but he is more thoughtful and picks up on social cues much quicker. BookBlackthorne would not need to be reminded by Mariko to bow, for example.

I actually thought Blackthorne did shut up and pay attention in this episode, and I've been on his case the whole show. If you look at the dinner scene, he didn't speak up at all. As for being told to bow, I took it more as Mariko behaving like his wife or girlfriend. He knows to bow; he's been bowing to Toranaga. She likes taking care of him. He already knew what to say to the brother, so it's not like he literally didn't know he should be bowing to the guy. 

I tend to think Book!Blackthorne benefitted from a sympathetic writer. I can say firsthand, as observant as you want to be, it ain't easy to pick up what's going on so easy. Who's bowing to who, how far you have to bow down, how you hand the business card, what you do with it when you get it. Exhausting.  

And for whatever reason, there's a leave an umbrella-take an umbrella policy. I got stuck in a who's umbrella is this? My umbrella? routine like Who's On First.

I know he's the ship's pilot, but I'm still surprised Blackthorne doesn't know a little bit about swordfighting. He was a 'privateer' so you'd expect he would have to be prepared if the ship was boarded. 

Edited April 2 by DoctorAtomic

[Raja]

22 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

 

I know he's the ship's pilot, but I'm still surprised Blackthorne doesn't know a little bit about swordfighting. He was a 'privateer' so you'd expect he would have to be prepared if the ship was boarded. 

He did take a stance much like the Three Musketeers do, although he has seen the samurai repeatedly use their swords as chopping weapons. A visual learner like Lord Toranaga he is not it seems

[DoctorAtomic]

Blackthorne was also nervous and confused because the guy was yelling at him and drew on him when he was just standing there looking at the boat. I'm not sure there was much to learn there. He did change his grip when shown. I just would have thought he knew to hold it with two hands. 

I'd rather not he suddenly become a great swordmaster anyway. 

tbh, I'm surprised you can just draw on the Hatamoto like that. 

[Raja]

Of course he wasn't just any guy drawing on Lord Toranaga's hatamoto but pending the surrender he was still the Lord of Izu. And wasn't in attack mode. Buntaro on the other hand almost went in when he stopped and went to make his dying request 

[DoctorAtomic]

Still though. He was yelling at Blackthorne and then drew his blade. Blackthorne thought it was real. Even being the lord, that still seems a bit much.   

[paigow]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'd rather not he suddenly become a great swordmaster anyway. 

Blackthorne always brings a gun to a swordfight... The Chicago Way

[Constantinople]

11 hours ago, mledawn said:

This episode was so frustrating. I don't think the audience has seen enough of Toranaga being the great tactician/strategist to have any dramatic effect with the surrender.

I agree.

I think the writers are relying too much on Toranaga's first scene in the first episode where he and his son are discussing the falcon. Toranaga remarked the falcon didn't just attack, but chose when to strike, and flew with the sun behind it so the falcon's enemies wouldn't see it. That scene is doing a lot of heavy lifting.

[Haleth]

Omigosh, I thought the surrender was all a ploy to get Toranaga into Osaka castle, but then his son attacks the tea house and gets himself killed.  Poor, dumb Nagakado.  Toranaga is going to be devastated.

13 hours ago, paigow said:

Blackthorne always brings a gun to a swordfight... The Chicago Way

Or a canon.  (We shall see.)

[paigow]

Osaka Castle is impregnable... except for an exhaust port that only a point-blank shot can penetrate... 

[seacliffsal]

I enjoyed this episode a lot.  I like the strategizing, shifting alliances, subtle observations, etc.  I am also glad that we are finally rid of Taranaga's son (who raised him?  he doesn't seem to take after his father at all).  The ambush really represented the son-unplanned, chaotic, no thought about consequences, etc.

[aghst]

BTW, the boy doesn't die in the books.

But he apparently doesn't do much in the books either.

[Raja]

46 minutes ago, aghst said:

BTW, the boy doesn't die in the books.

But he apparently doesn't do much in the books either.

Nor the real life son of Tokugawa we thought he most closely represented 

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 4/2/2024 at 6:27 PM, mledawn said:

This episode was so frustrating. I don't think the audience has seen enough of Toranaga being the great tactician/strategist to have any dramatic effect with the surrender.

I'm not sure why the writers have chosen to make Blackthorne so insufferable but he was definitely not this bad in the book. He is completely unable to just sit back and listen/pay attention to what is happening around him.

Well said. Great acting can only do so much. Hiroyuki Sanada is a brilliant actor but no amount of stellar acting can make up for the huge discrepancy between we are told of Toranaga and what we actually see.

And Blackthorne acts as if he knows he is the main character in a story and thus cannot be killed.

Also, why was Saeki so willing to poke the bear by telling Toranaga and company "I play for the other side now, suckers" while being vulnerable to becoming a hostage himself or being killed by one of the many hotheads in Toranaga's camp? Does everything happen in that village in the book or is it a cost cutting measure for the show?

I am impressed by Fuji's restraint when Toranaga's idiot made the death all about him and his small dick issues, so to speak. Plus, Fuji training with a naginata - smoking hot. The show seems to be trying to deconstruct the glorification of ritual suicide, so I have my fingers crossed she decides to live and makes it to the end of the show.

Edited April 3 by Jack Shaftoe

[aghst]

I've forgotten what the crime Toranaga is supposedly guilty of, punishable by death.

First time we see him, he's in Osaka, there for a Regents Council meeting.

Already they're making accusations, how he had Ochiba back at his castle, kind of to guarantee that the other Regents won't kill him.

Vaguely that he's a threat to the Heir because his family line descends from the last Shogun so he's a threat to usurp power and destroy the peace imposed by the late Taiko?

 

 

[Raja]

24 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

And Blackthorne acts as if he knows he is the main character in a story and thus cannot be killed.

Also, why was Saeki so willing to poke the bear by telling Toranaga and company "I play for the other side now, suckers" while being vulnerable to becoming a hostage himself or being killed by one of the many hotheads in Toranaga's camp? Does everything happen in that village in the book or is it a cost cutting measure for the show?

I am impressed by Fuji's restraint when Toranaga's idiot made the death all about him and his small dick issues, so to speak. Plus, Fuji training with a naginata - smoking hot. The show seems to be trying to deconstruct the glorification of ritual suicide, so I have my fingers crossed she decides to live and makes it to the end of the show.

I think that Blackthorne is reacting like a man for whom surrender means at worst the winner makes you crew his ship. Not a Christian who sees honor in suicide. For him going down swinging his sword no matter how out matched is the honorable action.

Lord Saeki was claiming checkmate. Now Lord Toranaga has to renege on his surrender with a legal trick of only telling his intentions like he wouldn't allow his son to touch the arrest warrant 

[Pi237]

I’m getting way more out everyone’s comments here as per: what the hell is going on? vs what’s actually being shown. If it’s everyone’s honorable duty to defend their leader even at risk of their life, and even from mere insults, perhaps Taranaga should try a little communication with his people so they don’t do stupid stuff like his son kept doing. 
 

Blackthorne is being played like a clueless, petulant child who still, somehow, keeps saving Taranaga’s life and so gets gifts and a personal translator, but is just supposed to play house and keep his mouth shut. 
 

I might have to try-watch from the beginning because I don’t see how, if they can get away with ‘bandits’ just killing inconvenient people, why the Regent Council is still going through the motions of doing things appropriately. 
 

The women, who talk in code and nuance, are making much more sense than the men. 

[Raja]

2 hours ago, aghst said:

I've forgotten what the crime Toranaga is supposedly guilty of, punishable by death.

First time we see him, he's in Osaka, there for a Regents Council meeting.

Already they're making accusations, how he had Ochiba back at his castle, kind of to guarantee that the other Regents won't kill him.

Vaguely that he's a threat to the Heir because his family line descends from the last Shogun so he's a threat to usurp power and destroy the peace imposed by the late Taiko?

 

 

I think it was putting together alliances which in total would be more powerful than those held by and loyal to the heir.

At the end he recruited Lady Mariko with the promise of fighting her father's enemy. It was the Taiko who took action after her father murdered their lord and saw her as the sole survivor of their clan.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think the other regents were also miffed because the heir seems to like Toranaga best too. 

I think we've seen sufficient evidence Toranaga is a good strategist. He also came up with the idea to actually resign his regency, knowing they needed 5 voting members. He bought time then to escape and he's buying time now. Last time, he also bet on Blackthorn to mute give up and out race Nestor Carbonell, and I think he's betting on Blackthorne now too. 

I don't think Toranaga was aware of the raid on the Tea House. It did work, but he just slipped. 

[ofmd]

So much for "whatever happens in the willow world, stays in the willow world"! I knew that was BS. Although I don't quite get why dissent around the Anjin would be advantageous to her.

Also, poor kiddo.

I kept thinking Toranaga's brother was in on the great 3-dimensional chess plan, but after his nephew's death, probably not.

Is the great plan to enter Osaka under the ruse of surrender, then take Osaka from within?

I agree that the actor who plays Toranaga owns the show. Most others (sans the Blackthorne actor) are pretty good. Kiddo actor acted his little heart out, too.

[Raja]

7 hours ago, ofmd said:

So much for "whatever happens in the willow world, stays in the willow world"! I knew that was BS. Although I don't quite get why dissent around the Anjin would be advantageous to her.

Also, poor kiddo.

I kept thinking Toranaga's brother was in on the great 3-dimensional chess plan, but after his nephew's death, probably not.

Is the great plan to enter Osaka under the ruse of surrender, then take Osaka from within?

In two watches I haven't picked up how Lady Gin mentioned the Anjin.

Maybe when this is over I'll go back and try the dubbed version. It will be strange hearing English and then hearing Lady Mariko give different English meanings 

If Blackthorne knew what Crimson Sky was it could be another of those I wasn't there but everybody knows stories from the hatamoto about the Trojan Horse.

[ofmd]

On 4/4/2024 at 9:05 PM, Raja said:

In two watches I haven't picked up how Lady Gin mentioned the Anjin.

 

She told Omi that the anjin's "thoughts were elsewhere" (i.e. not with Kiku) that night.

[Raja]

On 4/3/2024 at 9:44 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

 

I am impressed by Fuji's restraint when Toranaga's idiot made the death all about him and his small dick issues, so to speak. Plus, Fuji training with a naginata - smoking hot. The show seems to be trying to deconstruct the glorification of ritual suicide, so I have my fingers crossed she decides to live and makes it to the end of the show.

The scene from 1980 that I remember was Anjin inspecting his consort's wounds  which it seems were at the upper thigh and being amazed by the speed of recovery as the camera moved up Lady Fuji's legs with her questioning if she could fulfill her duties as consort. I think that has been transferred to Lady Fuji as a samurai preparing for a desperate fight to fulfill her duties as consort 

[KittyQ]

I am enjoying this series, but still have trouble seeing the attraction between Anjin and Mariko, at least on screen. Perhaps it is the actor playing Blackthorne, who doesn't convey the "wheels within wheels" theme of the story as it relates to everything, from the power struggle between the regents and Toranaga, the machinations of the Portuguese and Jesuits, the shifting loyalties of the vassals, as well as the love affair between Anjin and Mariko. 

As far as Toranaga's plans, he keeps everything very close to his vest, which given the various betrayals and intrigues is smart, but sometimes keeping people out of the loop can lead to conflicting and mistaken actions, 

[Brn2bwild]

I couldn't quite tell how Toranaga's son died.  Was it from the force of swinging that sword, which knocked him back against the rock, or did the uncle make an unexpected move that sent him off balance?

[akiss]

1 hour ago, Brn2bwild said:

I couldn't quite tell how Toranaga's son died.  Was it from the force of swinging that sword, which knocked him back against the rock, or did the uncle make an unexpected move that sent him off balance?

I think he just slipped. It was raining and they were running. Swinging the sword probably didn't help. 

[paulvdb]

That was also my impression. It was raining and the rocks were slippery so he just slipped and hit his head against a rock.

[DoctorAtomic]

That was the irony of it. He fancied himself a great warrior, but he couldn't even balance himself with a sword properly. 

[Helena Dax]

I don't hate the actor who plays Blackthorne, but there's something about him that doesn't work for me. I think it's his body language, which reminds me of Philip of Edinburgh in The Crown. Also, he comes across as a boy, whereas Richard Chamberlain looked more mature. 

Speaking of boys, poor Nagakado! He really wasn't the sharpest katana in the drawer.

I know Yabu is a bit problematic, but I can't help to like him. His expressions crack me up.