S11.E05: Student Loans

[Lantern7]

Main Topic: Student Loans

Also: Congress & Tik Tok; disunity among Republican Congressmen; Coming up on Inside Edition; Coming up on Inside Edition: Just Taylor Swift stories

Another “fun” topic covered. You have to give the show credit for focusing on front-of-the-mind problems like student loans to cover. It’s appalling to see people sink into debt with slim hopes of getting out, then getting slammed by folks who believe forgiveness is asked for by the truly lazy. In other news, Justice Thomas has 48 hours to decide on John’s sweetheart offer, but I don’t think he’s even thought of abandoning the “Gavel Gang” for $1 million per year and a sweet motor coach.

Interesting that the Speaker chose a fancy place to assemble his fellow Republicans, and that it also has a bomb shelter from years ago. Of course, John focused on the poor reviews and entertaining the notion of locking them in there. I can’t say I blame him.

Oh, and John spent $600 on two Snooki Cameos. Well, it was either her or Rudy, and Rudy wasn’t going to get that money. Mwah!!

Edited March 18 by Lantern7

[Annber03]

"We're tired of paying for spoiled students' college loans! They just need to work hard and be responsible with thier money! Now excuse us while we go support a candidate who's never paid back anything he's owed anyone and who never had to work a day in his life for anything he got!"

-How those Fox News/anti-Biden student loan people come across to me. Clue in, viewers who watch those shows and see those ads, they're taking you for a ride with their faux outrage over the student loan program. 

To say nothing of this weird attitude that's going around now where young people daring to want things like affordable schooling (or healthcare, or a safe and clean environment/safe schools/etc.), are being called "entitled" and "spoiled". And the same people bitching about this can't figure out why younger generations are either having a harder time hitting a lot of the typical adult milestones (marriage, kids, homes of their own, etc.) or holding off on/refusing to take those steps. Gee, yeah, it's a real mystery, people. 

I do appreciate John highlighting the postiive things Biden and his administration have managed to do to at least try and begin tackling this issue and helping people, though. It's nice to end a segment with that kind of positive, hopeful news, and is further proof of the kinds of achievements that we might be able to get depending on how things shake out going forward. 

The "Inside Edition" segments cracked me up. Especially the first one. I remember "The Soup" used to do compilations like that as well. My mom will occasionally watch that show and yeah, that's pretty much how those "coming up" promos go. They're just...all over the place. It's hilarious. 

[iMonrey]

I'm sort of torn on the student loan issue, I'll admit. On the one hand I totally understand how expensive college is and how prohibitive it is for so many people because of that. I also understand the necessity of a college degree for most jobs. And I understand about predatory lenders, they're a real thing and naive people are taken advantage of.

On the other hand, I have a hard time understanding people who rack up 100K in student debt then say they had no idea what they were getting into, like 18 is just too young to understand numbers. Student loans have been around for a long time, student debt is a problem that has been around a long time, this is something people should understand. Yes, even at 18. 

I also know someone who worked in financial aid at a college and saw students borrow the maximum amount they could get time after time even when they didn't need it. And yes, students will use loans to buy cars and vacations on spring break, so I can see where people are coming from when they say kids like that shouldn't have their loans forgiven. Not the politicians or the pundits or the actors in those commercials, but real people who are paying back car loans and paying mortgages. 

I guess there needs to be scrutiny about whose loans are forgiven and what they used them for.

[Enigma X]

I am a person from a dirt-poor background who has racked up $100,000 of student debt. It didn't start at $100,000, but after all of the added interest, it sure has become that. In my (lived) experience, I can see how someone who has no financial literacy and very little financial support from home (for whatever reason) can rack up so much debt.

The real issues are (I will miss a few that I am sure):

1. College is too expensive, and the costs are not the same as they were in previous decades, even in the 1990s. (This means that those who started college/universities in the 1990s probably paid significantly more for the same degree than a person who got their degree in the 1970s.)

2. Financial counselors employed by colleges and universities do not do their jobs, and all the predatory people who work for credit card companies were and probably still are allowed to set up booths on campuses.

3. A faction of this country is more concerned about profit than having a generation better off than the one they came from.

I have come to terms with the fact that I will probably die with student debt. It is just part of my life. I work in public service, and maybe it will be forgiven. However, the hoops one must go through compared to the ease of being placed in debt are just enough to believe the whole system is rigged.

Edited March 18 by Enigma X

[DoctorAtomic]

12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

We're tired of paying for spoiled students' college loans! They just need to work hard and be responsible with thier money!

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I'm sort of torn on the student loan issue, I'll admit.

The problem I have with the top quote is that these people gnashing their teeth in the streets are either coming from "it was hard for me so it should be hard for everyone else", which is a terrible attitude, or are the type of people that screech to the heavens that tax cuts for the rich spur growth, which is massively hypocritical and demonstrably false going on 40 years now. Additionally, nary a squeak on PPP loan forgiveness. 

It's also condescending. You going into high schools to volunteer career advice so kids won't the same mistakes you did? No? 

I paid off my loans, but I didn't have much because I had a ton of scholarships and fellowships, but I don't care if the loans were forgiven. It's the flip side of the tax cuts for rich people. 

However, I'm also torn about the loans, largely because it's not a complicated issue to fix. There's already a program where your loans are forgiven if you work in the public sector for ten years. You could do the same with, for example, cybersecurity. 

Most people don't need to go to elite private institutions and rack up six figures in debt. My state is incentivizing students with up to $8K no strings if they go to college in-state. You can cap interest rates on education loans. I don't think federal loans should even have interest. You also have to pay taxes on fellowships. Get rid of that. Student debt shouldn't be on your credit report either. 

Other countries don't have this problem.  

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

On the other hand, I have a hard time understanding people who rack up 100K in student debt then say they had no idea what they were getting into, like 18 is just too young to understand numbers.

I don't know if it's a lack of understanding. As you point out, the degree is a necessity, so they don't have a choice. Or don't think they do when there are less expensive options for post secondary education.

The necessity itself is a problem as well. There's probably a lot of jobs where you could get a certification at a community college and that would be fine. Employers are lazy though

[peeayebee]

Those lenders who hang up on their customers, who fail to send out bills, who discount payments because each was 1 penny short... There's a special place in hell for them.

Then the hypocrisy of people berating students for wanting their debt forgiven while those people have themselves had debts forgiven. What do they say when challenged with this, like the PPP loan forgiveness program?

I don't know how the ex-students emotionally deal with knowing that what they're paying is not really touching the loan itself but mainly the interest.

I didn't understand the audience laughter when John said that the amount of student debt was higher than the GDP of Australia. I know that he went on to say the show sometimes tricks viewers by showing a map and saying it's one country when it's really another, but the audience laughed as if prepared for the joke. 

Those Inside Edition promos are crazy. They certainly piqued my interest. What was the story about Swift concert goers forgetting they saw the concert?

[DrScottie]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I know that he went on to say the show sometimes tricks viewers by showing a map and saying it's one country when it's really another, but the audience laughed as if prepared for the joke. 

In true John Oliver fashion, he highlighted Latvia with the caption of Estonia. 

[Lantern7]

27 minutes ago, DrScottie said:

In true John Oliver fashion, he highlighted Latvia with the caption of Estonia. 

Somebody WAS paying attention! Not me, though.

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Those Inside Edition promos are crazy. They certainly piqued my interest. What was the story about Swift concert goers forgetting they saw the concert?

I haven't heard of that, but I'm thinking it's an overexposure to noise and visuals that might lead people to forget about having gone. Either that, or reasons hundreds of times dumber than I can imagine.

ETA: John is off next week, and the week after that is Easter. Will the segment of newscasters acting like idiots for St. Patrick's Day slide through the net this year?

Edited March 18 by Lantern7

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, DrScottie said:

In true John Oliver fashion, he highlighted Latvia with the caption of Estonia. 

Yes, but the audience was laughing before that when he brought up the GDP of Australia. So I wondered why. My assumption is that something was said before the show so they knew what was coming up. :shrug:

[iMonrey]

10 hours ago, Enigma X said:

2. Financial counselors employed by colleges and universities do not do their jobs,

Some of them do. A friend of mine worked in financial aid, she was very diligent about advising students not to take more money than they needed, and the students rarely heeded her advice. There is abuse on both sides. I honestly don't know the ratio but there is.

[bilgistic]

I went to a state college in the mid 1990s, and it cost me $40,000. I didn't qualify for a Pell grant until my senior year because (back then, at least) financial aid doesn't allow a student to be considered independent from their parents financially until they've not been a tax deduction for TWO YEARS. What parent is not deducting their kid at 16? My parents didn't give me a dime for college, yet because of their modest incomes as a machinist and legal secretary, I qualified for zero grants.

My federal loans were recently forgiven because I'd paid for them for over 20 years on the income-contingent plan. The relief I felt was enormous. My balance never went down by any marked amount when I paid my loans.

It's simply insane that we have to pay so much for education.

[vibeology]

I know not every 18 year old makes good financial decisions but there has to be forgiveness at some point. A crap decision shouldn't be a life sentence. And that's assuming there was a bad decision made at some point which may not always be the case. If someone is paying over $700 a month and only $65 is going to the principal something is wrong with that loan. That loan shouldn't be legal. The government has to provide some forgiveness, some relief. People cannot have lives with debt like this hanging over them. 

The one person had $80,000 in debt, paid $120,000 over 10 years and still has $76,000 in debt. That should not be allowed. That loan has to be forgiven because she will never pay that loan off. 

Its hard to get a job without some sort of post-secondary education. The cost of post-secondary education has skyrocketed and is being passed on to students and parents. If we don't forgive the debt that currently exists and make dramatic changes to education, the generations coming up will never be able to afford homes, kids, cars (because they've gotten so much more expensive too) and a chance to build up any savings for medical expenses (another thing we should fix) and ultimately retirement. 

I would love to ask the "people need to have kids" Senator from the IVF story how he feels about student loan forgiveness. I would guess he's anti- but of course the debt is one of the big things cited in this story that is preventing people from having kids. 

[catsitter]

It was nice to see a clip from "How to with John Wilson", but a shame that there was no mention (I mean spoken) that it was from that show.

 

Edited March 19 by catsitter

[Lugal]

22 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

The problem I have with the top quote is that these people gnashing their teeth in the streets are either coming from "it was hard for me so it should be hard for everyone else", which is a terrible attitude, or are the type of people that screech to the heavens that tax cuts for the rich spur growth, which is massively hypocritical and demonstrably false going on 40 years now. Additionally, nary a squeak on PPP loan forgiveness.

They're the people in that meme I saw:  "Can't pay back those college loans?  You should have skipped college and gotten a real job!" and at the same time, "Can't make enough money, well, you should have gone to college and gotten a real job!"  My response: Oh, I see the problem, you weren't born rich.

This "it was hard for me so it should be hard for everyone else" attitude is the main problem right here.  We'd rather drag everyone down than lift anyone up.  While I understand the anger when you aren't one of the ones uplifted, that's the reason to make these things universal.

3 hours ago, vibeology said:

I know not every 18 year old makes good financial decisions but there has to be forgiveness at some point. A crap decision shouldn't be a life sentence.

That's the problem with forcing children to choose a career/life path before they're trusted to go to the bathroom by themselves.

3 hours ago, vibeology said:

I would love to ask the "people need to have kids" Senator from the IVF story how he feels about student loan forgiveness. I would guess he's anti- but of course the debt is one of the big things cited in this story that is preventing people from having kids.

It's that special kind of idiot that makes it impossible for people to have children and then they're shocked, SHOCKED! that people aren't having kids.  Our government seems to be full of those special kinds of idiots.

[Annber03]

7 hours ago, Lugal said:

They're the people in that meme I saw:  "Can't pay back those college loans?  You should have skipped college and gotten a real job!" and at the same time, "Can't make enough money, well, you should have gone to college and gotten a real job!"  My response: Oh, I see the problem, you weren't born rich.

To say nothing of how insulting it is to claim some jobs are more "real" than others. All those Fox News clips of people snidely mocking theater majors or people in other liberal arts professions - newsflash, idiots, those jobs are just as real as your bllue-collar jobs, and provide plenty of societal benefits all their own. 

I also love those Fox News hosts mocking other people when they get paid millions to sit there and spout blatantly untrue things each day. But sure. They're totally speaking for and get us us working-class folks, mmhm. 

Quote

It's that special kind of idiot that makes it impossible for people to have children and then they're shocked, SHOCKED! that people aren't having kids.  Our government seems to be full of those special kinds of idiots.

People complain when someone has more kids than they can afford to take care of, and they also complain when people choose not to have kids because they can't afford them. You can't win either way, it seems. 

Edited March 20 by Annber03

[vibeology]

12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

To say nothing of how insulting it is to claim some jobs are more "real" than others. All those Fox News clips of people snidely mocking theater majors or people in other liberal arts professions - newsflash, idiots, those jobs are just as real as your bllue-collar jobs, and provide plenty of societal benefits all their own. 

Hiring actors for a political ad to insult theatre majors is peak ridiculousness.

Besides, we need actors. For entertainment, for instructional videos, to make the entire world of advertising work. Economically, its a very important career. And I know so many people believe that anyone can act, but that's not true. It's a skill that has to be honed with training. 

[Pallida]

This episode could have been so many episodes. As an anthropologist (with multiple graduate degrees - but I haven't slammed my car into any talking head neighbor's vehicles), I always take it personally when my field gets used to denigrate education. I'm pretty sure I understand how society shafts people better than FoxNews folks, and I can back it up with research.

The public service loan forgiveness program is a shitshow. I'm holding out hope that it still exists when I have my 10 years done, but I'm still nervous. It took over a year for a loan servicer to respond to my inquiry about payments not counting, and it was some fluff non-response. I still have no clue why they weren't counting, but I'm fairly certain it's because things got murky when my loans got transferred around amongst loan servicers and because I was making income-based repayments when I was making very little money, so the payment amounts were very small when counted against each individual loan. Thankfully, the Biden administration implemented a waiver and payment count adjustment that fixed whatever issue I had that the loan servicer couldn't figure out: https://www.ed.gov/news/press-releases/education-department-announces-permanent-improvements-public-service-loan-forgiveness-program-and-one-time-payment-count-adjustment-bring-borrowers-closer-forgiveness?utm_content=&utm_medium=email&utm_name=&utm_source=govdelivery&utm_term=

I also wish more attention had been paid to the skyrocketing cost of housing, especially in college towns. I've lived in the same apartment since 2010 (ha, I thought I'd leave after finishing my program, oops?) and my rent has doubled in that timeframe. No improvements to my apartment at all, but ya know, an annual increase adds up. Around here, unless someone wants to live with too many bodies to a place, it's easily $700/month for one bedroom in shared housing. Folks need to stop thinking that loans are only going to tuition - trying to survive in college is way more than just tuition. The cheapest dorms are $7500/year for triple occupancy. I did that one year and it was absolutely horrible for my introverted mental health. This does not include the meal plan which is another couple thousand. 

[bilgistic]

Yep, I got the hell out of the dorms after my freshman year so I could actually study and sleep without people screaming in the halls at 3 a.m. My GPA immediately went up. Granted, again, this was 30 years ago, but yes, college costs are more than just tuition. My scholarship and loans paid for tuition, books and housing, but I also worked to have money to actually live on.

[andromeda331]

I do love John pointing out how stupid it is for Fox News and others to bitch about spoiled rich kids whining about paying student loans. Ah, spoiled rich kids aren't whining because they don't have student loans. They have rich parents' who pay for college. Those who have student loans are ones who can't do that. 

Also complaining about students getting stupid degrees. Ah, you mean like doctors? How much money they have to pay for college and med school? Or teachers? As John pointed out most careers require a college education. 

Do mechanics have to go to college? This is a question. My dad and his dad never did. They were self taught. Most mechanics I know learned how to do most basic repairs in their teen years or at high school auto shop. They never needed to go to college. Has that changed? 

[MicheleinPhilly]

Just now, andromeda331 said:

Also complaining about students getting stupid degrees. Ah, you mean like doctors? How much money they have to pay for college and med school? Or teachers? As John pointed out most careers require a college education. 

For me, it's the sneer when they mention liberal arts schools or liberal arts degrees. They literally think that a liberal arts degree has something to do with politics. 🙄

[DoctorAtomic]

Oh, is that why? Because 'liberal' is in the degree? That wouldn't surprise me. I'd probably steer a liberal arts major into a more specialized field for an advanced degree, but I would encourage anyone going to college to at least get through the Master's level and/or professional licensure. 

As far as I know, mechanics, electricians, welders, etc., are called 'vocational' and do not require a college degree. Our local community college iirc offers some kind of certification that helps them get into apprenticeships into these jobs. They also offer the same in IT. Many also offer certifications in AutoCAD and the like (basically engineering drafting software). 

[andromeda331]

1 hour ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Oh, is that why? Because 'liberal' is in the degree? That wouldn't surprise me. I'd probably steer a liberal arts major into a more specialized field for an advanced degree, but I would encourage anyone going to college to at least get through the Master's level and/or professional licensure. 

It wouldn't surprise me if that was the reason either. Oh, no it's liberal so it must be bad. I would be more worried about how hard it is to break into art and other fields. But if that's what they want go for it. 

My sister-in-law is a teacher and got her masters because she would make more money with it then without. 

Quote

As far as I know, mechanics, electricians, welders, etc., are called 'vocational' and do not require a college degree. Our local community college iirc offers some kind of certification that helps them get into apprenticeships into these jobs. They also offer the same in IT. Many also offer certifications in AutoCAD and the like (basically engineering drafting software). 

I thought so but I wasn't sure if it had changed. 

[purist]

Announced on 21 March 2024: Biden cancels $6 billion in student loan debt for 78,000 public service workers. Bravo! I wonder if John will mention this.

[Hanahope]

You know so why many states fund colleges less?  So they can give tax cuts to rich people.  
 

 more teens need to consider community college for 2 years then transfer.  Saves a lot of money.
 

colleges should not be resorts but even non fancy schools charge quite a lot.  

[Hanahope]

another thing that most teens don't realize, and the loan people don't explain is that when you take out the student loan, the interest might start incurring immediately.  Some loans will defer starting the interest until graduation (or leaving school), i think those are the federally guaranteed loans.  but loans from private banks won't do that and suddenly at the end of 4 years, the college grad is flabbergasted that their $100,000 loan has doubled because of interest.  

[Pallida]

5 hours ago, Hanahope said:

another thing that most teens don't realize, and the loan people don't explain is that when you take out the student loan, the interest might start incurring immediately.  Some loans will defer starting the interest until graduation (or leaving school), i think those are the federally guaranteed loans.  but loans from private banks won't do that and suddenly at the end of 4 years, the college grad is flabbergasted that their $100,000 loan has doubled because of interest.  

When I started my master’s program, I didn’t have guaranteed assistantship funding for the year and I was nervous about cost of living in a new state. I took out 4k in private loans “just in case” and it accrued 500 in interest between August and December. I paid that off in December and decided I didn’t need a buffer. Even though I knew interest would accrue immediately this was just way beyond my expectations. 

[andromeda331]

On 3/21/2024 at 7:46 PM, Hanahope said:

You know so why many states fund colleges less?  So they can give tax cuts to rich people. 

That's really really where all the bitching comes from. Tax cuts and money go the rich? That's great. No problem. No bitching. No whining.  Anyone else? The endless whining and complaining about everything being handed to them. It's not really surprising but it's very annoying.  

[bilgistic]

Because many far-right-leaning people really think they are closer to being a millionaire than what they are in reality, which is a few paychecks away from being destitute.

[swanpride]

Frankly the whole thing goes way deeper than just debt forgiveness. Because the real question here is: Where is all the money from the students going? Can't be just in nice facilities. There are some people pocketing a lot of money, starting by the banks themselves.

And yes, I get young people being quite naive about the issue because as a rule, American children aren't really raised to be independent, at least not raised in what is considered middle class. They spend their whole youth in some sort of bubble at school, otherwise trapped in some suburban home where they need a parent to drive them around to get anywhere. And in this bubble they are constantly told that going to college is the thing to do, because this is the path to a well-paying job. 

[Annber03]

2 hours ago, swanpride said:

And yes, I get young people being quite naive about the issue because as a rule, American children aren't really raised to be independent, at least not raised in what is considered middle class. They spend their whole youth in some sort of bubble at school, otherwise trapped in some suburban home where they need a parent to drive them around to get anywhere. And in this bubble they are constantly told that going to college is the thing to do, because this is the path to a well-paying job. 

This. And most schools do not have this kind of financial education for young people - if they do learn this stuff, it's usually not until they're at the age where they would need to start full on implementing those financial skills and understanding into their everyday lives, and by then it's...kind of already too late and they're stuck getting a literal crash course in the topic.