S01.E08: The Raven

[Bastet]

3 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

Did the Usher kids all die in order of age from youngest to oldest?

Yep.

(And, as a bit of trivia, in the courtroom on that first day, they sat in chronological order, too, but oldest to youngest.)

4 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

If so I wonder why Lenore was last?

I think that was partially because Verna put that off as long as she could, hating that she had to do it, partially because doing it while Froderick and Roderick were still alive would have garnered them immense public sympathy, and partly to see what, if anything, Roderick did to try and protect her*.  Which, of course, was nothing, and I like her sighing she really shouldn't have to explain what is meant by "bloodline". 

*I think she was also intrigued by what Madeline would do, as I think she finds Madeline interesting (as do I!).  Now, Madeline's attempt at finding a loophole in the contract language (that if she and Roderick don't die together, the terms aren't met, so the contract is nullified) certainly was about a lot more than saving Lenore - such as saving herself, so that she could turn the company away from drug manufacturing to focus on her immortality through AI projects - but I do think Lenore's fate was percolating somewhere in her mind as she started to accept the fact this was all happening because of that deal.

[libgirl2]

6 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Which brings me to another thought/question.  Did the Usher kids all die in order of age from youngest to oldest?  If so I wonder why Lenore was last? If she was doing it simply by bloodline and in age order Lenore would have been first. If she was doing it in generational order, then Lenore should still have been the first.  I get the feeling she left Lenore to last (before Rod and Madeleine) because she really would rather have not killed her at all.  But the rules of her existence means that even she must abide by her own bargains.

She did do youngest to oldest of the children first and then swung around to grandchildren, which there was only one. 

[Ohiopirate02]

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

 I don't think Verna is evil because even though she presented the bargain, the twins didn't need to take it.  And in her interactions with the Usher children, for some of them she would have made their deaths painless and uneventful. And we saw how compassionate she was with Lenore.

Which brings me to another thought/question.  Did the Usher kids all die in order of age from youngest to oldest?  If so I wonder why Lenore was last? If she was doing it simply by bloodline and in age order Lenore would have been first. If she was doing it in generational order, then Lenore should still have been the first.  I get the feeling she left Lenore to last (before Rod and Madeleine) because she really would rather have not killed her at all.  But the rules of her existence means that even she must abide by her own bargains.

I agree that Verna is not evil, nor is she good.  She exists outside of that moral binary as well as time and space.  She shows up when people are at a crossroads and offers them a clearly outlined deal.  If she was evil, there would have been some kind of last minute loophole buried in the fine print.  

As to Lenore being the last of Roderick's bloodline to die, Verna can see the future for all of our characters.  She mentions to Frederick that he would have been a dentist if Roderick had not made his deal with her. Lenore's death is tied to what Morella will do in the future.  I don't think Verna set out to collect the souls of the Usher children in reverse birth order, but each death happened in the order of Verna's master plan.  I also think Verna's master plan is rooted in balancing the scales.  Roderick and Madeline take her deal and millions of lives are lost due to their investment in Ligadone.  Verna is setting the stage for both Morella and Juno to balance that out with their charitable foundations.  

[Chaos Theory]

Poor Rufus he becomes that guy who gets chained behind a wall .

Verna gave everyone the death she thought they deserved.  With Freddy she told him about the life he could have had if he stayed with his mother (which is how I interpreted the “other life” he would have been a dentist.)  But all he ever wanted was his fathers love but that was still not an excuse.   With Lenora her death was kind and painless and Verna was even sad about it.    But it was still a death owed her.  
 

The whole show is about Bloodline.  Madeline and Roderick could have found other companies other than Fortunato but in their mind they were part of the companies Bloodline and the company was owed to them.  It was an obsession with them.  It was also part of the reason Roderick was so quick to accept his bastard Children once they proofed paternity. Bloodline.

it took a lifetime to build up the Usher bloodline.  And a couple of weeks for Verna to tear it down.  

 

You just say The Devil at the crossroads bar  is a myth and then you meet a very sexy devil at a bar  who flirts with both female you and your brother and offers you everything you ever wanted?  

What would you do for a Klondike bar?

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[Chaos Theory]

I meant to add I loved the conversation between Verna and Pym.  If two uhhhh beings understand each other it was them.  I liked how Pym was the one who said no to Verna’s offer and said he would play out his hand.    
 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[libgirl2]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

I meant to add I loved the conversation between Verna and Pym.  If two uhhhh beings understand each other it was them.  I liked how Pym was the one who said no to Verna’s offer and said he would play out his hand.    
 

 

So what exactly was Pym? 

[Chaos Theory]

42 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

So what exactly was Pym? 

The one person in the story who not only wouldn’t be leveraged but couldn’t be because he had nothing but his own life to leverage.    I think Verna was genuinely impressed with that.  

[Ohiopirate02]

36 minutes ago, libgirl2 said:

So what exactly was Pym? 

I got the impression that Pym was a regular human who saw some shit on that trans-world journey and that fundamentally changed him.  

[libgirl2]

26 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I got the impression that Pym was a regular human who saw some shit on that trans-world journey and that fundamentally changed him.  

That is the impression I got but I thought maybe I had missed something. 

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

What would you do for a Klondike bar?

Oh, you've reminded me -- I meant to look that up, because when she said it, I thought "Wait, that ad campaign started after 1979", but forgot all about it by the end.  So I just did, and, yes, that campaign launched in 1982.

[bosawks]

I'm trying to reconcile the deal of the Usher children never wanting for anything with Roderick not entering the lives of "the bastards" at 16 at the absolute earliest with Perry.

Did they not want for anything because he paid their way through their mothers or did he do the same to them and buy them away from their loving maternal home and pave their way to an ugly death.

I'd prefer to believe in the first and that Roderick among all of his other faults is a lazy dad who doesn't want to be troubled with the hard work of parenting that we say with young Tammy and Fredrick.

But I think it is the second and he bought and paid for all of his kids destroying their family unit which would certainly explain the looks of disdain and lack of interaction at the first three funerals.

Rotten to the core, our Fredrick.

[TeslaNewton]

1 hour ago, bosawks said:

I'm trying to reconcile the deal of the Usher children never wanting for anything with Roderick not entering the lives of "the bastards" at 16 at the absolute earliest with Perry.

Did they not want for anything because he paid their way through their mothers or did he do the same to them and buy them away from their loving maternal home and pave their way to an ugly death.

I'd prefer to believe in the first and that Roderick among all of his other faults is a lazy dad who doesn't want to be troubled with the hard work of parenting that we say with young Tammy and Fredrick.

But I think it is the second and he bought and paid for all of his kids destroying their family unit which would certainly explain the looks of disdain and lack of interaction at the first three funerals.

Rotten to the core, our Fredrick.

I think it's both. He didn't want to do the work raising them, so when the kids were old enough and after the mothers did all the work, he bought them off.

[KarenX]

On 10/17/2023 at 2:47 AM, Emmybean said:

I have a hard time reconciling the Roderick who fell in love with Annabel Lee and who should have been a poet with the man who bricked up Gris.

I thought they poisoned him with cyanide? And were surprised he took so long to die? The candle is throwing me off about their intentions. Bricking him up conscious after being surprised by him waking up and even taunting him I can see but having a pillar candle already lit? Why have that unless you were performing morbid symbolism on someone who would suffer from it?

Edited October 24, 2023 by KarenX
Duplication

[KarenX]

On 10/18/2023 at 12:53 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I gave up on trying to make the dates work when Mike Flanagan expected me to believe Henry Thomas could play a character that was in pre-school in late 1979.  

Henry Thomas was born in 1971 playing a guy born in 1975 or 1976. He doesn’t look like a California Early 50s but he looks his age. It doesn’t stand out to me.

[KarenX]

On 10/22/2023 at 6:27 PM, Bruinsfan said:

All of the Ushers being dead could be a major complication. I don't see Juno ruthlessly enforcing extreme prenups the way any of the blood family might have. Bill the Fitness Dork probably at least retained ownership of the house and his own fitness brand, though maybe without the kind of cross promotional support it would have had when paired with Goldbug. Julius might be out of luck, though—Leo doesn't strike me as the sort to have provided for him.

At least Bill has the notoriety now that Goldbug failed and can build his own brand. If Juno dissolved the Fortunato enterprise I wonder if that automatically voids the BILLT copyright. I am sure she would sign it over to him anyway.

Plenty of agents would happily shepherd him to a new fame. I think Bill escaped the happiest. He didn’t see Tammy break down and her death wasn’t THAT gory. And no living creatures were involved.

[Ohiopirate02]

38 minutes ago, TeslaNewton said:

I think it's both. He didn't want to do the work raising them, so when the kids were old enough and after the mothers did all the work, he bought them off.

That and he did not care about his children until they could be of use to him and the family business.  All of the Usher children had to prove they could expand the business in order to benefit long-term from the money.    

[Guest]

1 hour ago, KarenX said:

I thought they poisoned him with cyanide? And were surprised he took so long to die? The candle is throwing me off about their intentions. Bricking him up conscious after being surprised by him waking up and even taunting him I can see but having a pillar candle already lit? Why have that unless you were performing morbid symbolism on someone who would suffer from it?

They weren’t surprised he woke up. Madeline said she had expected to see him to go through all the stages of grief. 

[Paloma]

On 10/22/2023 at 11:58 PM, DearEvette said:

Did the Usher kids all die in order of age from youngest to oldest?  If so I wonder why Lenore was last? If she was doing it simply by bloodline and in age order Lenore would have been first. If she was doing it in generational order, then Lenore should still have been the first. 

I'm not sure of everyone's ages, but it did seem that they were dying from youngest to oldest in the first generation of Roderick's bloodline. But Lenore was the second generation so would die after them regardless of age. 

 

On 10/22/2023 at 11:58 PM, DearEvette said:

I get the feeling she left Lenore to last (before Rod and Madeleine) because she really would rather have not killed her at all.  But the rules of her existence means that even she must abide by her own bargains.

Although I like that idea, I think she also left Lenore for last in order to maximally hurt Roderick (and I guess also Madeline, but especially Roderick). He seemed to love Lenore more than any of his children, and he definitely saw her as innocent in contrast to his children. 

[Chaos Theory]

21 hours ago, Paloma said:

I'm not sure of everyone's ages, but it did seem that they were dying from youngest to oldest in the first generation of Roderick's bloodline. But Lenore was the second generation so would die after them regardless of age. 

 

Although I like that idea, I think she also left Lenore for last in order to maximally hurt Roderick (and I guess also Madeline, but especially Roderick). He seemed to love Lenore more than any of his children, and he definitely saw her as innocent in contrast to his children. 

I don’t think there was any malice in what Verna did.  Rules are rules and she was collecting on a debt owed to her.   She might have taken some joy in her job and picked deaths that each  of Roderick’s kids earned in one way of the other which is why she gave them options to change their path.  It wouldnt have saved their lives but it would have made their deaths less showy.   Napoleon could have told the truth about the cat.    Prospero was just careless about his life and therefore others as well.  Vic fudged her gf signature and lied about the viability of the heart mesh.     Yes they all would have died…..but They could have all died in their own bed wrapped in the arms of someone they cared about.   
 

i am not sure if this was brought up yet but Madeline’s death was sort of a replay of their own mothers death.    Buried alive.  Rising from the grave.   Final act killing an important man. 

Edited October 25, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

i am not sure if this was brought up yet but Madeline’s death was sort of a replay of their own mothers death.    Buried alive.  Rising from the grave.   Final act killing an important man. 

Yeah, I noted the symmetry, because that was really cool to me.

[Bruinsfan]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

Prospero was just careless about his life and therefore others as well.

Did we see Verna actually do anything to set up Prospero's death aside from her original deal with Roderick and Madeline providing the circumstances into which he was born? She gave him a chance to call the orgy off (presumably to die in somewhat less grisly fashion by car accident, drug deal gone wrong, or just his dumb ass forgetting to breathe), and warned Morella and the staff to get out of Dodge. But I think Prospero showered himself and his party guests in toxic waste all by himself.

[Kip Hackman]

On 10/17/2023 at 12:20 AM, Brn2bwild said:

Instead, it seemed like Roderick and Madeline were already mostly in the clear and had a viable plan in action.

Were they really in the clear? Their "viable plan" was to create an alibi at a bar that didn't exist, with witnesses who didn't exist, 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Kip Hackman

[Ohiopirate02]

33 minutes ago, Kip Hackman said:

Were they really in the clear? Their "viable plan" was to create an alibi at a bar that didn't exist, with witnesses who didn't exist, 

I think it's up to interpretation whether the Usher siblings needed Verna to cover up their murder of Rufus.  Their plan was not the most fool-proof to start.  They were banking on no one from the party witnessing either Usher sibling leave the party, no one catching Madeline with Rufus, and none of the construction crew realizing someone came in and did part of their job while they were on break.  They may have dosed the wine correctly, but Madeline's hands were all over that bottle, and the construction site, the handcuffs, and Rufus.  

[Kip Hackman]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I think it's up to interpretation whether the Usher siblings needed Verna to cover up their murder of Rufus.  Their plan was not the most fool-proof to start.  They were banking on no one from the party witnessing either Usher sibling leave the party, no one catching Madeline with Rufus, and none of the construction crew realizing someone came in and did part of their job while they were on break.  They may have dosed the wine correctly, but Madeline's hands were all over that bottle, and the construction site, the handcuffs, and Rufus.  

True, but the very first thing Verna offers is that they'll never be convicted of anything.  Which probably sounds pretty good, right after killing your boss. 

"Take the deal, and you'll get away with everything."

Edited October 28, 2023 by Kip Hackman

[Bastet]

The only way they possibly get caught is if the body is found.  And the only way the body gets found is if, a week later when people go back to work, there's enough "Did you finish that wall before the holiday break?  No, did you?" confusion among the construction crew that someone thinks to say "OMG, do you think someone buried that missing CEO behind here?"  So I think they'd have been fine - in terms of the murder, and taking over the company - without Verna.  But it's the Verna deal that kept them from ever facing any consequences for the company's actions.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Bastet

[bilgistic]

On 10/19/2023 at 12:20 PM, DearEvette said:

But I think the only thing they heard was 'let the future generation foot the bill' and over time just conveniently forgot the details. 

I joked to my boyfriend that they were typical Boomers. (Don't throw tomatoes at me.)

On 10/22/2023 at 9:21 PM, libgirl2 said:

So was Verna the devil or death? 

I see them as an agent of chaos.

[tennisgurl]

So Roderick really did sacrifice his own kids for his success along with Madeline, holy shit. I had guessed that we would find out that that's what been happening, but to hear him just casually agree to put little Freddie and Tammy on the chopping block, trying to justify himself by saying that it would be better for them to live shorter lives but in luxury than living normal longer lives, was a jaw dropper. But what really gets me is that he knew about this, basically told Auggie that he always knew what he did that night, and went on to have four more kids. He knew that he would be dooming any child he might father but apparently he never bothered to have a vesicatory or even just wear a damn condom, he just kept having kids who he damned from the day they were born. It does make me feel more sorry in retrospect for the Usher kids, even fucked up asshole Freddie, they never really had a chance. They certainly made their own choices, but it adds a level to tragedy to their lives and deaths. Even worse, if more than Freddie had children that would be even more kids and teens dead, his whole bloodline all gone so that he and Madeline could get what they thought they were owed. 

I don't think Verna is evil, more like some sort of trickster deity that temps people with bargains and promises. She didn't force Roderick and Madeline to take the deal, even when she came to collect she gave the kids chances to at least have a less brutal death, she's more of a force of nature, although as we saw with Freddie and Lenore, she also very much does things based on what she personally wants. Good or evil don't seem to really apply.

I was so hoping that we would find out that Lenore wasn't a biological Usher or that she would get away with a loophole, but its hard to find loopholes in these situations, even for Verna herself. She was such a sweet breath of fresh air among her corrupt family, it really sucks that she had to pay the price for what her family has done, but at least it was a peaceful death and she died knowing that her mother would help make her life mean something. I'm also really glad that Juno survived, now free of Roderick and with a shit ton of money she can use to help people like her. I think that all fits really well into the theme of consequences that the show has had, for good and for bad. Roderick and Madeline made their deal to avoid any consequences for what they've done, and in the end all of their chickens came home to roost after making the world a worse place, while Lenore tried everything to be a good person and daughter and can die knowing she was leaving behind a legacy of goodness. 

Good on Pym for turning down Verna's offer, even she seemed to be impressed. He's alright with living with the consequences of what he's done, its not worth it to get mixed up with Verna.

I really enjoyed the amount of symmetry throughout the show. The Usher children died in order from youngest to oldest, the reverse order of when we saw them all sitting together in the first episode, the youngest and eldest children died in the same place, Madeline and her mother shared the same fate in the same house, etc. 

I am curious about what the four youngest relationships with their moms were like. Clearly they didn't mean much to Roderick, he didn't even acknowledge them at their childrens funeral and most of the rest of the Ushers didn't even know who they were, but did their kids still see much of them? Roderick apparently came into their lives when they were in their late teens/early twenties and they became official Ushers, I am curious if it was sort of like how he got Freddie and Tammy away from Annabell? He waited until the kids were old enough to not need to be raised much but still young enough to be easily won over by having tons of money and power thrown at them? Again, its just so messed up knowing that he went out and found all of his kids by his various flings, got to know them, accepted them into the family, emptied them out like Freddie and Tammy, all knowing they would pay the price for his success. 

Madeline raising from the grave with her eyes replaced with gems was possibly one of the creepiest moments of the whole creepy show. Lots of really interesting things with both Roderick and Madeline, those flashbacks of them bricking in their boss was deeply unsettling, Rufus might have been a dick but that's a horrible thing to do to anyone. I also loved the scene where, after Lenore died, Roderick was in his office yelling at the ghosts of his dead children and granddaughter, trying to justify himself, and then at Verna as bodies rained from the sky as she told him that death the only thing he's given the world, from his family to the many people who died of his drug.

I think that this might be my favorite Flannigan show, it was neck and neck with Hill House for awhile, but I think this show stuck the landing a lot more. Its definitely left me thinking and its going to stick with me for awhile. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by tennisgurl

[Bastet]

10 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

but to hear him just casually agree to put little Freddie and Tammy on the chopping block, trying to justify himself by saying that it would be better for them to live shorter lives but in luxury than living normal longer lives. But what really gets me is that he knew about this, basically told Auggie that he always knew what he did that night, and went on to have four more kids.

And knowing their increasingly young ages relative to his meant, with them dying right before he naturally would, that he was giving the youngest ones really shorter lives.  And lives that, unlike Freddy and Tammy's, were not lived in luxury from the beginning, only when he/they learned they were Ushers and were brought - or bought, more accurately - into the fold.  Madeline made damn sure she didn't have any kids (mostly because she didn't want them, of course, but also because enough of her feared the deal was real to make sure she didn't have any to condemn to this fate), but he just went out there and fucked anything that moved, sans protection (presumably unless the woman insisted on it, in which case he agreed - as otherwise he'd likely have even more kids - but never of his own volition), and then whenever it turned out that had produced a kid, that was hunky dory.

He wants to claim the ethical high ground over their bio father, who refused to ever acknowledge them, by saying blood is blood and any bio kid who comes to him finds the gate open, and their bio father was indeed a piece of shit, but I'll put condemning six kids to early deaths for your own gain higher on the So Not Father of the Year ranking.

[Bastet]

I was just getting ready to sneak out of a work event last night when I spotted a colleague I hadn't seen in a while; we spent the next couple of hours in a corner getting caught up over drinks, and somehow this show came up in our conversation, leading to an extended chat about how utterly fascinated we both are by Madeline Usher.

Neither of us could remember with absolute certainty, but feel confident in:  The only nephew we see her interact with (meaning one-on-one, so other than at the family dinner in the beginning, when she tells the kids Fortunado is the reason they have all their little pet projects, so shut up and sign the contract) is Perry, right? 

And the only reason she does so is that she and Roderick sit down with each of the kids when it's their turn to pitch their project.  (And, good lords, do I love her "You've had a year, and a club at which you'll mark up Glenfiddich is what you've come up with?" disdain and exasperatedly asking a distracted-by-his-diagnosis Roderick to join in any time [and that, after they send Perry packing, she reaches out, as she realizes he was uninvolved because something is going on with him].)  She has no individual interaction with him, or the other nephews, for any other reason, right?

If accurate, we found that fantastically telling, as compared to the fact we do see her with all the nieces.  When Roderick wants Pym, not Camille, to do damage control after Perry's death and Camille objects, Madeline tells her to state her case; Camille does, and Madeline overrules Roderick's decision and tells Camille to go do her thing.  Madeline goes to see Vic in her office, and while it's about, now knowing Roderick has what killed their mom and Vic's heart valve could buy him time, stressing the study's importance (at least as I recall; I'm a bit distracted that when Madeline walks in, Vic asks her how she got by "Kevin Costner" - meaning her bodyguard - which makes me laugh since Mary McDonnell co-starred with him in Dances With Wolves), there's a general sense of familiarity underlying that.  She has other motivations (as Madeline always does), but there's also sincerity in her pep talk to Tammy backstage at the Goldbug launch.

While she's hardly a traditional Aunt Mads to any of the nieces, it seems she will at least bother with them in a way she doesn't with the nephews; partly, I'm sure, because none of the guys have any actual skills, while the nieces at least have their niches even if some or all aren't her thing.  But, fundamentally, my colleague and I figure that while Madeline pretty much just rolls her eyes at Freddy, Leo, and Perry, she has some level of respect for Tammy, Victorine, and Camille, at least in the sense that she knows, while things are better for them than they were for her at that age, they still face sexism even within the realm of their immense economic privilege so on that one level she roots for them to succeed on top of what it does for the family/company.

Because her sheer disdain for the patriarchy is something I greatly enjoy about Madeline -- as the certified genius of the twins, the better strategist, the one better able to control herself, to see the big picture and thus play the long game, but (until her very short-lived takeover of the Board near the end) still, all these decades later, holding the second-ranked position in the company to Roderick's CEO.  I could watch another eight episodes just filling in more of Madeline's history.

Edited November 12, 2023 by Bastet

[DearEvette]

On 10/30/2023 at 4:44 PM, tennisgurl said:

So Roderick really did sacrifice his own kids for his success along with Madeline, holy shit. I had guessed that we would find out that that's what been happening, but to hear him just casually agree to put little Freddie and Tammy on the chopping block, trying to justify himself by saying that it would be better for them to live shorter lives but in luxury than living normal longer lives, was a jaw dropper. But what really gets me is that he knew about this, basically told Auggie that he always knew what he did that night, and went on to have four more kids.

I wonder if Roderick having all the kids was his way of trying to loophole the contract?

Madeleine we know was trying to loophole it by trying to first find a way to beat death itself via AI aided immortality and then by trying to renegotiate.

Maybe Roderick thought that the only kids affected by the bargain were the ones born at the time of the bargain, i.e. Freddy and Tammy.  And him having more children and then making them basically hunger games themselves into getting money and position was his way to figuring out who would be the one to carry on the Usher legacy.   Doesn't make him any less shitty for basically bargaining away the life of the two kids he had in favor of making a better life for the ones he didn't.

[Black Knight]

One touch I liked is that both Madeline and Pym, after attempting to kill Verna only to learn that that doesn't work, each apologize to Verna. Very simply, just "I apologize."

It was such an irony when Verna was promising Roderick that if he took the deal, his kids would never want for anything and never struggle, because we saw in the previous episodes that those kids were nothing but want and struggle. Verna appears to be essentially omniscient, so I would say that in this way she indeed was a trickster who was misleading in the terms she set out. I don't know if it would have changed Roderick's choice at all, and the show was very clear that it was his doing that all the kids were such a fucking mess (but also that that did not remove their own culpability for their awful actions), but the picture Verna presented was not remotely what the kids actually got. Yes, they had all the money they could want, but I went back and rewatched Verna's speech and she heavily implies that she's not just talking about material wants. Her closing lines are, "What's more loving, 40 years, 50 years of a gilded life? Or 70, 80 years of anxiety, tribulation and heartbreak?"

Madeline and Roderick went from accidentally burying their mother alive to intentionally burying Griswold alive. I wonder if that's why they chose to kill him the way they did.

Except for Lenore, the kids died in reverse birth order, but I think the reverse birth order is a red herring. They actually died in the reverse order of importance to Roderick, which fully accounts for Lenore - and Madeline as well. The three younger "bastards" were basically throwaways to him. We started seeing actual emotion from Roderick when it was Victorine's turn - Victorine who we also learned was the only one of the four "bastards" to have a board seat. He was pitching a fit about Tammy, who he mentioned was the most like him out of all his children. And it was obvious that Roderick really did favor Freddie (hence "Froderick"), because otherwise there is no way that useless git would have still been in the position of being the heir apparent. He got a billion chances from Roderick even though he was clearly the least capable of any of the kids. (Even Perry was actually onto something with his statement that his real business would be the leverage over all the important people at his parties. Verna no doubt appreciated that and Pym would have, had he known.) I'm not saying Roderick loved any of them outside of Lenore and Madeline, but there were varying degrees of mattering to him.

[DrSpaceman73]

Such a well done show. Watched in about 2-3 days. 

I saw a few things coming. I knew they didn't have a secret witness. I also figured out it was some sort of deal with ....not the devil bit whoever for their success. I didn't see them selling their kids lives for it though. 

Such outstanding writing how they weaved in the poe stories. 

Acting writing effects all excellent. 

At some point I'll rewatch but pretty intense. 

Edited November 8, 2023 by DrSpaceman73

[janie jones]

On 10/23/2023 at 11:24 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I meant to add I loved the conversation between Verna and Pym.  If two uhhhh beings understand each other it was them.  I liked how Pym was the one who said no to Verna’s offer and said he would play out his hand.    

I agree. I also thought she was going to offer to turn him into another one of whatever she is.

I don't really know why Verna was so high and mighty about what bad people the elder Ushers are. She facilitated their being able to carry on with no consequences for decades. It's their doing in that they didn't need to take her deal and likewise didn't need to be despicable, but she also didn't need to make the offer in the first place. She knew what was going to happen if they accepted. 

Actually, at one point, I thought it was going to turn out that they had made a deal with her to cause a certain number of deaths.

 

 

[DrSpaceman73]

11 hours ago, janie jones said:

I agree. I also thought she was going to offer to turn him into another one of whatever she is.

I don't really know why Verna was so high and mighty about what bad people the elder Ushers are. She facilitated their being able to carry on with no consequences for decades. It's their doing in that they didn't need to take her deal and likewise didn't need to be despicable, but she also didn't need to make the offer in the first place. She knew what was going to happen if they accepted. 

Actually, at one point, I thought it was going to turn out that they had made a deal with her to cause a certain number of deaths.

 

 

I think the question becomes did they really need her 'deal' or was this all their doing anyway?  They were on their way to becoming the people they turned out to be before meeting her. She didn't make them kill the boss or double cross dupin.  They did that on their own.  They were well on their way without her. How much did she really do for them?  We don't know the answer.   But it seems even without her 'assistance' they had already begun the transformation to the people we saw in present day. 

And I thought his $50 million offer for the snitch was going to somehow go against/ revoke their initial 'deal' and she was killing off all of them as a result. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by DrSpaceman73

[DearEvette]

12 hours ago, janie jones said:

I don't really know why Verna was so high and mighty about what bad people the elder Ushers are. She facilitated their being able to carry on with no consequences for decades. It's their doing in that they didn't need to take her deal and likewise didn't need to be despicable, but she also didn't need to make the offer in the first place. She knew what was going to happen if they accepted.

I don't necessarily read her as high and mighty per se, but one of the features of a lot of these types of stories is that supernatural or super human beings are often very disdainful of humans.  I think a being like Verna having been around for years and observational about human nature probably isn't too impressed with us.  At the very least you are given limitless wealth and opportunity and this is what you do with it? 

The show doesn't tell us exactly what Verna is, but if we go with supposition she works in bargains.  With that in mind, I think she had to make them an offer.  It is like the story of the scorpion and the frog.  It is what she exists to solely to do.

1 hour ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

How much did she really do for them?  We don't know the answer.   But it seems even without her 'assistance' they had already begun the transformation to the people we saw in present day. 

I mean yeah, Madeleine and Roderick were awful, but we can't know how less awful they might have been without the deal.  As it is, Verna's bargain smoothed the path for them.  They got everything they wanted with no effort and no consequences.  They were literally above the law.  If they had met any resistance at any point along the way it may have caused them to take a moment and pause or if they had ever had to pay any consequences for anything... it might have made them proceed with more caution.  But moving through life unfettered and free of any threat of imprisonment or fines or anything had to have corrupted them even more.

[DrSpaceman73]

1 hour ago, DearEvette said:

I don't necessarily read her as high and mighty per se, but one of the features of a lot of these types of stories is that supernatural or super human beings are often very disdainful of humans.  I think a being like Verna having been around for years and observational about human nature probably isn't too impressed with us.  At the very least you are given limitless wealth and opportunity and this is what you do with it? 

The show doesn't tell us exactly what Verna is, but if we go with supposition she works in bargains.  With that in mind, I think she had to make them an offer.  It is like the story of the scorpion and the frog.  It is what she exists to solely to do.

I mean yeah, Madeleine and Roderick were awful, but we can't know how less awful they might have been without the deal.  As it is, Verna's bargain smoothed the path for them.  They got everything they wanted with no effort and no consequences.  They were literally above the law.  If they had met any resistance at any point along the way it may have caused them to take a moment and pause or if they had ever had to pay any consequences for anything... it might have made them proceed with more caution.  But moving through life unfettered and free of any threat of imprisonment or fines or anything had to have corrupted them even more.

I'm sure it played some role but the question is to what degree?  Prym seemed to act as a human shield for much of their illegal and illicit activity. It's not like they were making no effort to protect themselves. 

Plus Roderick didn't really believe in the 'deal' Even existing until the very end so its not that he had the attitude he could just do anything with no consequences. It was one night 40 years ago and then they kind of forgot about it and were not even sure if they hallucinated or what really happened. They weren't be careless about everything because they felt invincible. Brazen yes but not careless. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by DrSpaceman73

[janie jones]

On 11/9/2023 at 8:02 AM, DrSpaceman73 said:

I'm sure it played some role but the question is to what degree?  Prym seemed to act as a human shield for much of their illegal and illicit activity. It's not like they were making no effort to protect themselves. 

Plus Roderick didn't really believe in the 'deal' Even existing until the very end so its not that he had the attitude he could just do anything with no consequences. It was one night 40 years ago and then they kind of forgot about it and were not even sure if they hallucinated or what really happened. They weren't be careless about everything because they felt invincible. Brazen yes but not careless. 

They felt invincible and they *were* invincible. Whether they remembered the deal or not, they were benefitting from it. A lot of people think they'll never get caught but then do. If not for the deal, Roderick might still have a pile of bodies, but it likely wouldn't be as big.

The interesting thing to me about Pym fixing everything is that we don't know quite how the deal protects them. Maybe Pym would have been less effectual if not for the deal. Maybe they never would have met Pym if not for the deal.

[Milburn Stone]

On 10/19/2023 at 8:08 AM, shrewd.buddha said:

I also think Roderick "forgot" about his deal with devil over the years

At first I thought Verna might be the Devil. Then I thought she might be Death. But by the end, I thought she was God. A compassionate God. A God who weeps when the innocent die. A God who (unlike the Devil) wants his creatures to be moral. Verna offers her humans a deal, not because she wants them to take it, but because she wants them not to.