S01.E08: The Raven

[Guest]

Quote

In 1980, Roderick and Madeline seize a chance to cement their fortune — for a price. Decades later, the remaining Ushers reckon with the consequences.

Dropping October 12, 2023

[Anela]

He really sold the souls of his kids. That is evil.  
😄 at the 5th avenue comment.  
oh, Lenore.  😔 I realized, when verna said “bloodline” that she would go after his grandchildren, too.  
 

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, Anela said:

He really sold the souls of his kids. That is evil.  
😄 at the 5th avenue comment.  
oh, Lenore.  😔 I realized, when verna said “bloodline” that she would go after his grandchildren, too.  
 

I was really hoping for a last minute reveal that Lenore was not Freddy's biological child since she was the only good and decent Usher.  

[Snazzy Daisy]

Verna aka The Raven is an ancient being who lives outside the realm of time and space. Pym Reaper saw her once during his Transglobe Expedition. 

Now we know that the Jester is Rufus Griswold. He was poisoned, tricked and bricked inside the Fortunato’s wall by the Usher twins.

Lenore does nothing wrong except being born into the Usher family. She’s still one of them. Verna approaches her gently and kindly. She even tells her that her mother will go on helping million of others via a charity in her honor. Even though Verna has given her a quick and painless death, it’s still heartbreaking. 💔😭

Roderick has been telling the truth. It’s indeed Madeline who’s making noises in the basement. It’s very manipulative of her to try to escape her fate, finding loopholes that would allow her to continue on living. She loves some parts of the deal with Verna (wealth, power etc) but isn’t liking the "into this world together, out of this world together" part.

Roderick makes sure that his sister carries out her part of the bargain by poisoning her then burying her like an Egyptian queen.

But Madeline isn’t really dead. She escapes the basement, goes up to the living room and chokes her brother to death in front of Dupin. She then falls to her death by her brother, brings an end to the Usher empire. This is a brilliant ending to the siblings story with some parallels to what happened with their parents, Eliza and William.

Satisfying conclusions on the dissolved Fortunato Pharmaceutical, Ligodone-free Juno, convicted Arthur Pym Reaper and retired Auguste Dupin.

Verna has collected some things from the Ushers, things that remind her of who they were in life and how they died. Now, she returns all back to them, as her final goodbye. For Lenore - the best Usher, she leaves one of her feathers and a white rose. How thoughtful.

 

QUESTIONS:

• Is shape-shifting Verna truly evil? She always gives her victims a choice, as some sort of warning. If they choose to proceed, that’ll be on them. She just comes to collect.
• Annabel once said to Madeline, “You are so small.” Was she right? Madeline used that specific phrase for Rufus’ tomb. Petty much?
• Is Roderick a psycho or just greedy? He has no problem with Verna’s term on ending his bloodline when he already has 2 kids. Madeline OTOH has opted for an IUD. How sensible of her.
• The show has indicated that recovery timeline for both Morella and Juno is 3 years. Coincidence?

 

The Fall of the House of Usher is one of my favorite TV series in 2023. Appreciate the satisfying ending to a great series. Amazing performances from Carla Gugino, Bruce Greenwood, Mark Hamill, Carl Lumbly, Willa Fitzgerald and Kyliegh Curran. There are some underdeveloped characters and predictable subplots, but it’s still a great series. 💕

 

Edited October 15, 2023 by Snazzy Daisy

[Ohiopirate02]

I don't see Verna as being truly evil.  Hee terms are clear and she never shows any sign of changing them once she comes to collect.  She also shows remorse at how some of the Usher children are killed.  I got the impression that their deaths could have been more in line with how she killed Lenore if they had chosen differently.  

[tomsmom]

I don’t get why Arthur always wore gloves did I miss the explanation also what was up with Morrella’s phone?

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, tomsmom said:

I don’t get why Arthur always wore gloves did I miss the explanation also what was up with Morrella’s phone?

The phone found with Morella's effects was a burner phone given to her by Perry.  All it had on it was the invitation to his orgy, but Freddy didn't know this.  He was driving himself crazy imagining the phone held proof of her living a secret life, and he desperately wanted to know what was in it.  

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Snazzy Daisy said:

Is shape-shifting Verna truly evil? She always gives her victims a choice, as some sort of warning. If they choose to proceed, that’ll be on them. She just comes to collect.

I’m not sure if the concept of good and evil works with Verna. I wouldn’t call her evil for the fall of the Ushers but she gives corrupt individuals immunity. From the moment Roderick and Madeline took the deal, their body count became her body count. She showed some empathy for people but mostly viewed them in a detached way. 

She was behind the deaths but she’s not villain of the story. I view her as an allegory for several aspects of society. 

1 hour ago, tomsmom said:

I don’t get why Arthur always wore gloves did I miss the explanation….

No fingerprints. 

[TexasGal]

On 10/14/2023 at 7:16 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was really hoping for a last minute reveal that Lenore was not Freddy's biological child since she was the only good and decent Usher.  

Same.

So based on the back of Annabel Lee's head, we are to assume she shot herself?  Was it ever said when she died?

[Ohiopirate02]

49 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

Same.

So based on the back of Annabel Lee's head, we are to assume she shot herself?  Was it ever said when she died?

I guess we are supposed to assume she committed suicide after Frederick and Tamerlane turned their backs on her in favor of their rich amoral father.  I wish we could have seen some of that and why it would make her take her own life.  What did they do?  I can't help but think it was her children's rejection of her that spurned this and not something Roderick said or did. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I guess we are supposed to assume she committed suicide after Frederick and Tamerlane turned their backs on her in favor of their rich amoral father.  I wish we could have seen some of that and why it would make her take her own life.  What did they do?  I can't help but think it was her children's rejection of her that spurned this and not something Roderick said or did. 

There was a line that she couldn’t live without her children.

I was talking to a friend who pointed out that the a lot of the collateral damage around the Ushers was probably a result of the deal. The deal was they got whatever they want and Roderick wanted the kids so he got the kids. Annabel was probably doomed the second Roderick made the deal. She knew too much and became his adversary. 

[Ohiopirate02]

2 minutes ago, Dani said:

There was a line that she couldn’t live without her children.

I was talking to a friend who pointed out that the a lot of the collateral damage around the Ushers was probably a result of the deal. The deal was they got whatever they want and Roderick wanted the kids so he got the kids. Annabel was probably doomed the second Roderick made the deal. She knew too much and became his adversary. 

Annabel was done with Roderick as soon as he chose to screw over Auggie. I don't think she ever realized Roderick and Madeline killed Griswold. He mentions that he had very little do with his kids when they were children.  It wasn't until they were older that he started throwing money at them.  Which tracks with Roderick being a selfish asshole.  Leave the parenting to Annabel while he makes his billions and beds every woman who catches his eye and never considering a vasectomy.  Roderick's deal may have prevented her from moving on after their divorce thereby putting her in the position to where death is preferable to watching her children become their father.  Or, she just "loved [Roderick] with a love that was more than love" and was doomed by that.

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Annabel was done with Roderick as soon as he chose to screw over Auggie.

Yes, I know. 

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't think she ever realized Roderick and Madeline killed Griswold.

I agree. 

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

He mentions that he had very little do with his kids when they were children.

He said she had custody and he couldn’t stand that. So he waited until they were older to attempt to buy them. 

 

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Which tracks with Roderick being a selfish asshole.  Leave the parenting to Annabel while he makes his billions and beds every woman who catches his eye and never considering a vasectomy.  Roderick's deal may have prevented her from moving on after their divorce thereby putting her in the position to where death is preferable to watching her children become their father.  Or, she just "loved [Roderick] with a love that was more than love" and was doomed by that

I think it’s more than that and that the deal meant that the kids were going to choose him no matter what. He wanted them (as soon as they were old enough to not need parenting) so he got them and Annabel couldn’t deal with watching him destroy every ounce of humanity the kids once had. That’s what I meant my Annabel being doomed the second he made the deal. He was going to corrupt those children under the guise of being a better father than his was and he didn’t care what it did to Annabel in the process. 

The same with his illegitimate children, who all came to him once they were adults or nearly adults. 

It seems unlikely that anyone in the orbit of the Ushers had much free will until the very end. They thought it was because of Pym’s non-disclosure agreements but it was really because of the deal. Whatever they wanted with no legal consequences. There is no reason to think that was limited to work. 

[Bastet]

This was fantastic!  So many pieces started falling into place as it went on, with me remembering things from previous episodes.

And, my gods, when Verna said "bloodline" and I realized that meant Lenore was going to die too?  I gasped "Oh no!" in the middle of the night (much to the displeasure of my cat). 

It's beautiful that Verna hated having to kill Lenore, so she gave her not only a painless death, but sent her off with that elaborate lie about the Lenore Foundation and how her act of defiance led to millions of lives saved.  (I was so swept up in her demise it took me a minute to realize that had to be a lie, as Morrie wouldn't inherit Fortunado, Juno would.)

I love that final (well, almost final) conversation between Roderick and Madeline.  And Madeline's epic speech reading society for filth, yet on the brink her own death still absolving them for all the harm they knowingly did.  Madeline Fucking Usher until the end, indeed.  I laughed at Roderick's casual Oh yeah, she probably wasn't actually dead; our mom was like that, too response to Dupin asking if he was sure she was dead when he "honored" her.  Madeline making her way upstairs to kill him the way their mom had killed their dad was terrific symmetry.

This is something I will definitely re-watch.  I always love Mary McDonnell and Carl Lumbly's performances, but I hadn't seen Bruce Greenwood or Carla Gugino in much of anything (and had to check IMDb to remember what I had seen them in), and they were fantastic as well.  Terrific performances throughout.

Great writing, too, especially the sly humor (I cracked up at the 5th Avenue reference).

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Bastet said:

It's beautiful that Verna hated having to kill Lenore, so she gave her not only a painless death, but sent her off with that elaborate lie about the Lenore Foundation and how her act of defiance led to millions of lives saved.  (I was so swept up in her demise it took me a minute to realize that had to be a lie, as Morrie wouldn't inherit Fortunado, Juno would.)

I don’t think it was a lie. She said Morrie inherits a sizeable amount when Fortunado collapses, not the whole thing. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, Dani said:

It seems unlikely that anyone in the orbit of the Ushers had much free will until the very end. They thought it was because of Pym’s non-disclosure agreements but it was really because of the deal. Whatever they wanted with no legal consequences. There is no reason to think that was limited to work. 

I disagree that the deal is what corrupted the Usher children. We see Verna tell multiple Usher children that their choices are the reason for the manner of their death.  Verna was going to collect their souls per her deal, but she did not necessarily set out to off the various Ushers in the most gruesome way possible.  They may have had cleaner deaths similar to Lenore if they had not chosen to follow in their father's footsteps or chased his love and approval.  

[Bastet]

1 minute ago, Dani said:

I don’t think it was a lie. She said Morrie inherits a sizeable amount when Fortunado collapses, not the whole thing. 

Oh, good.  (She wouldn't inherit from any estate other than Freddie's, but that's still big.)  It didn't seem like the Morrie sets up a foundation that saves millions of lives and the Juno sets up a foundation that saves millions of lives stories were meant to both be true, so I'm glad they are because they both picked terrific causes to support.

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, Bastet said:

Oh, good.  (She wouldn't inherit from any estate other than Freddie's, but that's still big.)  It didn't seem like the Morrie sets up a foundation that saves millions of lives and the Juno sets up a foundation that saves millions of lives stories were meant to both be true, so I'm glad they are because they both picked terrific causes to support.

Someone has to make up for all the lives lost due to the House of Usher.  Neither one can do it alone.

[Guest]

Just now, Ohiopirate02 said:

I disagree that the deal is what corrupted the Usher children.

I wasn’t saying the deal corrupted them. They made their choices. They could have been more like Lenore. I am saying that the deal played a big part in creating the circumstances that corrupted them and stacked the deck greatly in Roderick’s favor and against Annabel (and the other mothers) beyond just the money. 

My point is easier to see with the Usher’s significant others, who all seemed to be good people who comprised their own morals. I think that was part their own choices and part the power of the deal. The show was full of moments were people give in to the will of the Usher’s in ways that didn’t entirely make sense and they didn’t seem to understand. Like Pym getting access to the crime scene. Like the very real privilege of wealth on steroids. 

[Bastet]

I forgot to rave at how much I loved the "hostile takeover".  I figured the CEO was behind those bricks, that that's what they'd done back in '79, but it was still an absolute thrill to see it play out.  Which is an odd thing to say about someone's murder, I know.  But within the world of this show, where almost everyone is awful and will be dead in the end, it's oddly fun to see how they die.  And Madeline making him think he was going to get some, then coldly stacking those bricks while he still tries to lowball and dismiss her even while bargaining for his life, was great.

And also how much I loved Roderick's "Well, this is awkward" when Madeline enters his office after failing to kill him.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bastet

[DanielleBowden]

Lenore! I was hoping somehow she’d be spared. Verna tried to save Morrie but Lenore actually did, so I was thinking maybe she won her soul back. Great bit of acting on Bruce Greenwoods part with just a look when he realized Auggie was seeing Madeline and she wasn’t a hallucination. 

[Brn2bwild]

1 hour ago, DanielleBowden said:

Lenore! I was hoping somehow she’d be spared. Verna tried to save Morrie but Lenore actually did, so I was thinking maybe she won her soul back. 

I thought that after Annabel Lee made an appearance, and Roderick said that Lenore had her heart, that Annabel Lee might return in that scene, tell Verna, "No, she's mine.  I didn't make a deal with you."  And Verna, faintly relieved, would say "No, you didn't," and vanish as quickly as she came.  Alas!

One thing that might have been more effective during the scene where Roderick and Madeline sold their souls was if there was a sense they were in imminent danger.  Like if Verna had said: "If you don't take my deal, here's what happens: in 12 hours, the police will come to your door and..." before offering the alternative.  Instead, it seemed like Roderick and Madeline were already mostly in the clear and had a viable plan in action.

[Bastet]

30 minutes ago, Brn2bwild said:

Instead, it seemed like Roderick and Madeline were already mostly in the clear and had a viable plan in action.

That struck me, too, that they could have gotten away with killing Griswold just based on the effectiveness of Madeline's plan and didn't need Verna to take over the company -- although Verna is apparently necessary to immunity from any criminal/civil prosecution for their future business misdeeds; we've seen throughout American history such people escape consequence because of their power (wealth + connections + blackmail), but we also learn that's been because the biggest of them made deals with Verna. 

I take it as coming down to it being a long, exhausting, surreal night so that they didn't fully believe it was anything other than a hypothetical conversation with a trippy bartender until they left the bar, scoffed at what a weirdo she was, and then turned around to find the bar wasn't there.  But Verna was so specific in her accusation, rather than a more generic "I know what you did and why you're here", it's muddled.

I do love the idea that they, doubting themselves because of how outlandish a scenario it was and having differences in their recollections like any two people sharing a memory do, convinced 99% of themselves it was a folie a deux, and how that one percent which thought/feared it was real responded -- especially Madeline making sure she didn't have kids vs. Roderick flinging his seed all over the world in addition to the two he'd already condemned and however many grandchildren the lot of them might spawn.  She's more devious and cutthroat than him, but in this one way she was less brutal.

[Emmybean]

I loved this. Great story, great casting, great art direction. Roderick trying to send Madeline off as an Egyptian queen was a great end.

 

I have a hard time reconciling the Roderick who fell in love with Annabel Lee and who should have been a poet with the man who bricked up Gris.

[Paloma]

3 hours ago, Emmybean said:

I have a hard time reconciling the Roderick who fell in love with Annabel Lee and who should have been a poet with the man who bricked up Gris.

Same here, and young Roderick before Annabel also seemed like a decent person, while Madeline was always more cold and manipulative. I get that their mother's illness and death messed them up, but there didn't seem to be an understandable transition from an apparently honest and caring Roderick to one who pulled off a long con, lied to prosecutors, and literally killed a man in cold blood with not even the slightest hint of remorse (other than worrying about whether they'd be caught). 

[TeslaNewton]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:16 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was really hoping for a last minute reveal that Lenore was not Freddy's biological child since she was the only good and decent Usher.  

She had Annabel Lee's heart. 

[Demian]

18 hours ago, Emmybean said:

I have a hard time reconciling the Roderick who fell in love with Annabel Lee and who should have been a poet with the man who bricked up Gris.

The money and power changed everything.  As it does.

(By the way, I'm still waiting for Verna to collect on her Fifth Avenue client.  It's been decades.)

[TeslaNewton]

I was spoiled, so I knew everything that would happen, but still, Lenore's death made me cry.

Roderick may have been more evil than Madeline. He doomed this children without a second thought. Even Madeline was shocked.

[bosawks]

By the time they made the deal with Verna Augie had already been betrayed and they had buried a man alive.

Their path was set but to doom his own children and his children's children.

The resurrected corpse of Madeline choking the life out of him was a death that was still to good for Roderick.

Edited October 18, 2023 by bosawks

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, TeslaNewton said:

Roderick may have been more evil than Madeline. He doomed this children without a second thought. Even Madeline was shocked.

Not only did he doom Frederick and Tamerlane without a second thought, he chose to have 4 more children knowing the deal he made.  He could have gotten a vasectomy at any time after making that deal.  At least Madeline got an IUD almost immediately after making the deal though she was never going to willingly have children before making the deal.  

[TeslaNewton]

12 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Not only did he doom Frederick and Tamerlane without a second thought, he chose to have 4 more children knowing the deal he made.  He could have gotten a vasectomy at any time after making that deal.  At least Madeline got an IUD almost immediately after making the deal though she was never going to willingly have children before making the deal.  

Especially since he admitted that he knew about the deal.  Man, good on Madeline for strangling the life out of him. All the horror he deserved was in his face. Bruce Greenwood was so good in this. Before I finished the entire episode, I thought he had more humanity than Madeline. I think she had more humanity, miniscule that it was.

[Ohiopirate02]

3 minutes ago, TeslaNewton said:

Especially since he admitted that he knew about the deal.  Man, good on Madeline for strangling the life out of him. All the horror he deserved was in his face. Bruce Greenwood was so good in this. Before I finished the entire episode, I thought he had more humanity than Madeline. I think she had more humanity, miniscule that it was.

Madeline knew that the deal included Lenore and she cared for her.  Her AI project with Lenore as the beta tester shows this.  She knew Roderick doomed her but had no idea when Verna was going to show up to collect.  So, she created a way for Lenore to "live" forever.  

[Bastet]

3 hours ago, TeslaNewton said:

Before I finished the entire episode, I thought he had more humanity than Madeline. I think she had more humanity, miniscule that it was.

She was always a rule breaker, but in ways like if mom says don't go near that house, we are going over the gate to get to that house.  She had compassion (try and imagine today's Madeline crying "I'm sorry, Mommy" and you can't do it, but when teenage her realized they'd buried their mom alive, she wasn't just scared she was remorseful), and a sense of justice and injustice, especially where men were harming women. 

She was calculating, but used it against shitty people, like their bio dad and first foster mother.  If her only comes around a few times in a century brain had been rewarded instead of her getting dismissed at every turn, and she could have achieved the success as a technology pioneer she should have, making a great living, we might have had a different Madeline.  But by the time the opportunity to screw Griswold back and then some comes, she's become the Madeline that will commit murder.

And then the power and money totally corrupt what was left of her sense of right and wrong in the world at large, so that she sees the wrong in others but not in herself.

4 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Not only did he doom Frederick and Tamerlane without a second thought, he chose to have 4 more children knowing the deal he made.  He could have gotten a vasectomy at any time after making that deal.  At least Madeline got an IUD almost immediately after making the deal though she was never going to willingly have children before making the deal.  

That's the huge thing for me.  They mostly convinced themselves it was a folie a deux, but deep down believed it was at least possibly real.  Like she says, she believed it enough to get an IUD, while he couldn't even bother to wrap it up with flight attendants.  She left it up to him when Verna offered, because she didn't have kids and he did, so dooming a bloodline is up to him; all she had to agree to that affected her is that they go out together (and I so love her trying to use that as a loophole in the end, that if that doesn't happen, there's no deal, and he'd be dying fairly soon even without the deal, so if he kills himself, she, her immortality work, and Lenore can all live on), but he's the one condemning his kids.  And then he makes more of them!  The six of them only produced one grandchild, but he had no way of knowing that; he could have sentenced even more people to die as kids/teens.

I was trying to figure out how old Madeline and Roderick were in the end, since Verna had promised them a long life; they're older than the actors, based on the flashbacks (the first one, when they're kids, is 1953, when Mary McDonnell was a year old and Bruce Greenwood hadn't even been born yet), so mid-70s?  That's not a short life, but it's not what I'd call long, either, given averages.  Then at the end of this episode, when Verna is leaving the trinkets on all the headstones, we see 1950 as Roderick's birth year.  But that makes no sense; that would make them three in the first flashback and 12 in the second, but they're older than that both times.

[Ohiopirate02]

17 minutes ago, Bastet said:

I was trying to figure out how old Madeline and Roderick were in the end, since Verna had promised them a long life; they're older than the actors, based on the flashbacks (the first one, when they're kids, is 1953, when Mary McDonnell was a year old and Bruce Greenwood hadn't even been born yet), so mid-70s?  That's not a short life, but it's not what I'd call long, either, given averages.  Then at the end of this episode, when Verna is leaving the trinkets on all the headstones, we see 1950 as Roderick's birth year.  But that makes no sense; that would make them three in the first flashback and 12 in the second, but they're older than that both times.

I gave up on trying to make the dates work when Mike Flanagan expected me to believe Henry Thomas could play a character that was in pre-school in late 1979.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

She was always a rule breaker, but in ways like if mom says don't go near that house, we are going over the gate to get to that house.  She had compassion (try and imagine today's Madeline crying "I'm sorry, Mommy" and you can't do it, but when teenage her realized they'd buried their mom alive, she wasn't just scared she was remorseful), and a sense of justice and injustice, especially where men were harming women. 

She was calculating, but used it against shitty people, like their bio dad and first foster mother.  If her only comes around a few times in a century brain had been rewarded instead of her getting dismissed at every turn, and she could have achieved the success as a technology pioneer she should have, making a great living, we might have had a different Madeline.  But by the time the opportunity to screw Griswold back and then some comes, she's become the Madeline that will commit murder.

And then the power and money totally corrupt what was left of her sense of right and wrong in the world at large, so that she sees the wrong in others but not in herself.

Madeline is the most interesting character in the show. She had a sense of justice and compassion but was brutal in her judgement of Annabel. She a woman who see’s the injustice but then blames the victim for for not being as smart as she and then victimizes them. 

I need to rewatch her final monologue because she dropped some massive truth bombs that were somewhat lost in her awfulness. 

 

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I was trying to figure out how old Madeline and Roderick were in the end, since Verna had promised them a long life; they're older than the actors, based on the flashbacks (the first one, when they're kids, is 1953, when Mary McDonnell was a year old and Bruce Greenwood hadn't even been born yet), so mid-70s?  That's not a short life, but it's not what I'd call long, either, given averages.  Then at the end of this episode, when Verna is leaving the trinkets on all the headstones, we see 1950 as Roderick's birth year.  But that makes no sense; that would make them three in the first flashback and 12 in the second, but they're older than that both times.

I think the timeline wonkiness was mostly a result of them having to recast Roderick halfway through. The season was plotted out with Frank Langella but Greenwood is 18 years younger. It seems like they salvaged what they could of the already completed footage and handwaved the timeline issues. 

I love Bruce Greenwood in the role but several plot points are stronger with an older lead character. 

[Bastet]

45 minutes ago, Dani said:

I need to rewatch her final monologue because she dropped some massive truth bombs that somewhat lost in her awfulness. 

Yes, I loved the juxtaposition.  As you said, she is the most interesting character of the series.  Here's the text of the monologue:

Quote

Fucking people.  Fucking people out there, Roderick.  You don't want Ligadone, don't buy it, you don't want to get addicted, don't abuse it.  They're mad because we made it available and desirable.  Hey, news flash, it's our only fucking job.

These people; they want an entire meal for $5 in five minutes, and then they complain when it's made of shit and plastic.  McDonald's would serve nothing but kale salad all day and all night long if that's what people fucking ate.  It's available, no one buys it.

And we'll get around to funding AIDs research and diabetes and heart disease, just as soon as we figure out how to keep our geriatric dicks harder for a few more minutes.  What's the market share on wimpy dicks, Roderick?  Sixty, seventy percent of the healthcare industry; the Pentagon spent $83 million on Viagra last year.  Meanwhile, the Supreme Court – the fucking Supreme Court – does its part, tears the autonomy, rips the liberty away from women, shreds not just their choice but their future, their potential.

We turn men into cum fountains and women into factories, cranking out, what?  An impoverished workforce there for the labor and to spend what little they make consuming.  And what do we teach them to want?  Houses they can't afford, cars that poison the air, single-serve plastics, clothes made by starving children in third world countries.  And they want it so bad that they're begging for it, they're screaming for it, they're insisting upon it.  And we're the problem?  These fucking monsters, these fucking consumers, these fucking mouths, they point at you and me like we're the problem — they fucking invented us.  They begged for us.  They're begging for us still.

So I say we stand tall and proud, brother.  Bill's come due.  Let's not hide here in the basement like we've got something to be ashamed of.  No, not us.  You and me against the world.  Don't care if it's death herself, she wants Madeline Fucking Usher?  She's going to have to have to look me straight in the eyes.

 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Bastet

[DearEvette]

Oh my heart is broken.  Like Madeleine I figured there was a way to loophole that deal and maybe could save Lenore.  Her scene with Raven was so good.  Y'all I was legit upset!

Look, Griswold was no prince, but to cold-bloodedly brick someone alive in a wall is some real monster shit.

I liked the symmetry of a) Roderick  drugging Madeleine's drink (which I immediately suspected he did when he only smelled his) and b)him calling her a 'Queen' and a 'Goddess' and he prepped her to die just as she called him a 'King' and a 'Legend' in the previous ep when she was prepping him to die.

There was shot in the 1980 flashback when they are sealing the deal and Verna is pouring Cognac where the camera lingers on her hand pouring it, and the hand is in shadow and filmed in such a way that it looks like a Raven's wing.  It was pretty cool.

Mad respect to Pym for not making any deals with Verna and taking his chances.  Also Camille's assistants get their last little bit of payback. Heh.

I would have liked an update on Bill and Julius, but overall this was simply excellent. 10/10 no notes.

[HelloooKitty]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:40 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

The phone found with Morella's effects was a burner phone given to her by Perry.  All it had on it was the invitation to his orgy, but Freddy didn't know this.  He was driving himself crazy imagining the phone held proof of her living a secret life, and he desperately wanted to know what was in it.  

Specifically, he was jumping back and forth between thinking she was the one who was the informant and that she was having an affair with Perry. Or both. 

[Ohiopirate02]

7 hours ago, HelloooKitty said:

Specifically, he was jumping back and forth between thinking she was the one who was the informant and that she was having an affair with Perry. Or both. 

Roderick wanted access to the phone to see if Morella was the mole, but Frederick was only focused on her infidelity.  And as time went on with the rest of the Usher children dying left and right, who the mole was became less and less important while Freddy kept on trying to get into that phone.  He wasn't doing it to help his father.

13 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Mad respect to Pym for not making any deals with Verna and taking his chances.  Also Camille's assistants get their last little bit of payback. Heh.

I also have respect for Pym realizing Verna could not offer him anything and turning her down.  He knew what he had done and had made is peace with it.  I was expecting him to commit suicide after the deaths of Roderick and Madeline instead of taking the fall for their misdeeds.

[shrewd.buddha]

On 10/17/2023 at 5:47 AM, Emmybean said:

I have a hard time reconciling the Roderick who fell in love with Annabel Lee and who should have been a poet with the man who bricked up Gris.

This was a guy who buried his not-quite-dead mother in the backyard.  As for marrying Annabel Lee, even horrible people would like to be loved by decent people -- and dishonest people would love to find someone who they believe would never stab them in the back. 
Madeline also gets some credit for Roderick's corruption: she was very much the Lady McBeth to him.  She persuaded him to be deceptive and manipulative when by nature he was more of the "going straight at it" type of person.

I also think Roderick "forgot" about his deal with devil over the years, and maybe thought it was all BS.  I would imagine that if a typical person was drunk, met some weird chick who told them she could grant their life's desires in exchange for their soul, most people would just co-sign the deal as fast as they agree to all those internet fine print terms and conditions things. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by shrewd.buddha

[TeslaNewton]

39 minutes ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I also think Roderick "forgot" about his deal with devil over the years, and maybe thought it was all BS.  I would imagine that if a typical person was drunk, met some weird chick who told them she could grant their life's desires in exchange for their soul, most people who just co-sign the deal as fast as they agree to all those internet fine print terms and conditions things. 

He knew. He admitted to Dupin that he remembered the deal. 

[DearEvette]

My son had some friends over last year, they were all college students and were in the family room playing video games or something, joshing at each other.  I was vaguely hearing snippets of their conversation and at one point one of the guys asked another, "But what are you gonna do when...muffle muffle'(I didn't hear that part) but the other kid said as loud and clear as day 'That's a future me problem.'

I think that is the main characteristic of these types of 'bargain with the devil' stories.  The person making the bargain is so venal and eager to get something big now they aren't too concerned about  some future nebulous payback, they grab at the now and shrug away the consequences as a 'future me problem' thinking that they'll either be able to deal with it then or wiggle out.  Over time they can periodically forget that there is a payback waiting in the wings while in the back of their head worry/wonder when the bill is gonna come due.

I believe both Roderick and Madeleine both remembered the parts of the deal that worked for them, but were so blinded by the shiny thing on offer they didn't pay attention to the details as @shrewd.buddha pointed out, people don't often read the 'terms and conditions' they just want to click through and get the access. 

 But Verna's terms were very clear.  'You all exit the world together' and 'Your bloodline dies with you' and 'you two die together. You two came in this world together, you die together.'  and 'when that curtain falls, everyone takes a bow together' And she almost literally told him when he would die when she said they'd have '40 to 50 years of a gilded life' which is about how many years Freddy and Tamerlane had.  But I think the only thing they heard was 'let the future generation foot the bill' and over time just conveniently forgot the details. 

[Bruinsfan]

On 10/16/2023 at 3:22 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I disagree that the deal is what corrupted the Usher children. We see Verna tell multiple Usher children that their choices are the reason for the manner of their death.  Verna was going to collect their souls per her deal, but she did not necessarily set out to off the various Ushers in the most gruesome way possible.  They may have had cleaner deaths similar to Lenore if they had not chosen to follow in their father's footsteps or chased his love and approval. 

I don't think she collected their souls based on her dismissal of the concept (other than in the sense of setting up their deaths, at least). My suspicion is that all the ghostly apparitions Roderick saw were Verna giving him visions rather than the people's actual spirits. Certainly the deal shouldn't have given her any claim to Annabel Lee's or Griswold's souls, and they appeared to him too.

Verna also implied that descendants who rejected the Usher family's privileged life would outlive Roderick. Pity that Lenore really wasn't old enough to do so, if that was an out—another five years and she could have turned her back on the family to be a penniless Liberal Arts student or Peace Corps volunteer.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

My suspicion is that all the ghostly apparitions Roderick saw were Verna giving him visions rather than the people's actual spirits.

I think the same thing. When the deal was made Verna said they weren’t trading their souls because souls don’t exist. 

9 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Verna also implied that descendants who rejected the Usher family's privileged life would outlive Roderick.

She did? I didn’t get that at all. 

[Bastet]

2 hours ago, Dani said:

She did? I didn’t get that at all. 

Nor did I.  I meant to re-watch and check for that last night, but fell asleep, but I don't remember her saying anything along those lines.  It really wouldn't work with the fundamental horror of the deal -- he decides for his entire bloodline that they will all die shortly before he and Madeline do.  They have no way of altering the deal via their actions (if they did, Lenore would be alive, but she's not -- it's just that they will be given more merciful deaths if they make good choices [but Verna doesn't mention that as I recall, we just see it play out that way]).

[raeb23]

14 hours ago, Bruinsfan said:

Verna also implied that descendants who rejected the Usher family's privileged life would outlive Roderick.

Verna said that Roderick's descendants would outlive him if he rejected her offer. Otherwise, their lives would be prematurely shortened but they would never want for anything.

Roderick really was a bastard, readily condemning Frederick & Tamerlaine, then going on to have even more kids.

I wonder if Bill got some of the family money since he & Tamerlaine were still legally married?

[Bastet]

21 hours ago, raeb23 said:

I wonder if Bill got some of the family money since he & Tamerlaine were still legally married?

I'm sure just as the Prym Reaper drew up a pre-nup that said in the event of divorce he left with the clothes on his back, her will/trust excluded him -- they'd want to keep the money in the family, and certainly wouldn't want him to be in a position to one day decide he'd really like the windfall that would come from having her killed. 

Given the length of marriage, that Roderick liked Morella, and that she and Frederick had a kid together, Morella might have been allowed to be a beneficiary of his will/trust, but it's more likely it would go in trust to Lenore, and that's how Morella inherited Frederick's portion -- as Lenore's beneficiary.  But I don't see Bill the Fitness Dork (love the way Madeline said that), who she only married for his brand anyway, being a beneficiary of Tammy's.

Edited October 22, 2023 by Bastet

[libgirl2]

So was Verna the devil or death? 

[Bruinsfan]

All of the Ushers being dead could be a major complication. I don't see Juno ruthlessly enforcing extreme prenups the way any of the blood family might have. Bill the Fitness Dork probably at least retained ownership of the house and his own fitness brand, though maybe without the kind of cross promotional support it would have had when paired with Goldbug. Julius might be out of luck, though—Leo doesn't strike me as the sort to have provided for him.

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

So was Verna the devil or death? 

My husband and I had a conversation about that and we threw around a lot of ideas. 

We don't think she is the devil because deals with the devil usually mean relinquishing the soul and Verna said she doesn't believe in souls.

We don't think she is necessarily death, because she seems to be too angry and offended by all the people that their drugs have killed.  Death as an entity would not care about how people died, I don't think. 

My husband mentioned that one of the roles of a raven in some mythologies is that of a trickster. Kinda like the coyote. They are  also considered creatures of prophecy.

With that in mind, one idea we kinda hit on was that she is a being who exists to tempt people into agreeing to tricky bargains she sets to them. Not every bargain has the same terms, so not every person's fate is necessarily death. 

I think Madeleine and Roderick's was specifically tied to their bloodline and the death because a) they themselves were so stubbornly attached to Fortunato and felt they deserved to be a part of it because of their blood, even though their father never publicly acknowledged them and b) death was the ultimate payment because they themselves were willing to kill to get it. 

When Verna talked to Pym her first act was to try to bargain with him.  And her terms were based upon information about him that she could use as leverage. Personal information as leverage is the sort of currency that Pym in his profession as lawyer and fixer would normally use.

 I don't think Verna is evil because even though she presented the bargain, the twins didn't need to take it.  And in her interactions with the Usher children, for some of them she would have made their deaths painless and uneventful. And we saw how compassionate she was with Lenore.

Which brings me to another thought/question.  Did the Usher kids all die in order of age from youngest to oldest?  If so I wonder why Lenore was last? If she was doing it simply by bloodline and in age order Lenore would have been first. If she was doing it in generational order, then Lenore should still have been the first.  I get the feeling she left Lenore to last (before Rod and Madeleine) because she really would rather have not killed her at all.  But the rules of her existence means that even she must abide by her own bargains.