S02.E10: A Less Perfect Union

[AntFTW]

Quote

TJ announces another double elimination, testing the contestants' teamwork; Alyssa S. and Tyler grow closer as others plot their downfall.

Air date: September 21, 2023

[AntFTW]

Spoiler

Clip of TJ explaining the daily challenge and the start of it

Spoiler

Clip of Josh and Wes

[mojoween]

Shut up, Josh.  Also, shut up, Cassidy.

Bummed that Wes’s good-bye montage didn’t show CT yelling at him all night long.

It’s a drug.  Wes will be back.

[AntFTW]

They finally get one of the bigger named vets out with Wes, and it's so anticlimactic.

[Lantern7]

I had a crap night. I went to Wikipedia to see how many times Chris has been sent to elimination, and someone posted the results. For the record, that was his third time. The editing made it feel like more. And I'm sorry, but I'm not finding him endearing. He's just so blah, and I still this his Survivor win should come with asterisks.

What the Wikipedia page didn't show was that a. Wes didn't have the majority of the votes, b. Josh threw one ball his way, and c. Wes was serious about not coming back. That's a lot to take in. Of course Josh's betrayal hurts because he's a dope and Wes has grown on us over the years. I get that he didn't feel confident in running  finale with Wes, but he kept carrying on and on, and it didn't help that Wes compared him to Pinocchio. In the end, Wes can at least try to walk away. Josh seems incapable of leaving a franchise that will make him look bad at every opportunity. And it would take a miracle for him to make a finale, let alone win in one.

Cassidy? Whatever. One less showmance with Alyssa gone. Let her vent about the power alliance.

The elimination was good . . . reminded me of the Julie/Tonya Inferno. It seems oddly fitting that Wes would have things wrapped up and blow it in the end. Guy was clever, but his results over so many seasons were lacking, especially compared with Johnny.

Good mission to boot . . .  nice that Michaela could rein in her nerves and win. Too bad Fessy did as well. Michaela seems like someone cool to get the win. That means she'll probably be the last person eliminated before the final mission.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Lantern7

[AntFTW]

One thing I like about this season is the randomness of the hopper. When it comes to the hopper, the only strategy is trying to get no votes in the hopper.

Chris said he wanted Wes. Usually, when someone throws out a name, it spreads like wildfire because it saves everyone else. However, even with Chris saying a name, Wes only got three votes, and Tyler got seven. In any other season of The Challenge, Tyler would have gone into elimination instead of Wes because Tyler got the most votes. Overall, Wes played a good game and the best game he could have. The remaining MTV vets were able to shift the game and put themselves in a better position. He just had one stroke of bad luck and getting his name drawn.

[Lamima]

Still why wasn't Tori considered more. Ugh. And Fessy may keep winning. Bananas ain't looking all THAT. Or the other vet guy left. And Chris took out Wes. These old vets are washed up. They only get so far because they group up and bully people to not put them in arena. And the show helps fix it for them too.

Also, the hopper....show can easily fudge that. Tj could have the ball with name they want in his pocket. Not sure it's such a random pick. 

[Duke Silver]

I haven't warmed to any of the first time Challengers, so I come from a relatively unbiased POV here, I think...  Cassidy is whatever, but why is Chenelle talking so much shit what  has *she* done in this game?  I don't recall seeing her distinguish herself in any way, so...whateves.  Don't really care, between those two, I just am unimpressed by chest-pounding from someone who hasn't proven a damn thing.  Cassidy has at least come back from the sand a couple times.  That's more than Chenelle has done.

I find Chris boring, but dude has got physical skill, so is a threat if he can hang on.  His social game sucks ass, at least the edit he gets makes it seem so to me.

Are they holding Hall Brawl for the opportune time to have a smaller person vs. a giant (e.g. Fessy vs. Tyler)?  I assume as much.  Weaksauce.

Edited September 22, 2023 by Duke Silver

[choclatechip45]

Wes will be coming back. I did think it was funny with how much of a pest Josh has been in Wes's side over the years that Josh voted him in.

[jsm1125]

I feel for Cassidy. Her time in Survivor 43 was largely spent seeing a bunch of other woman get voted out early, despite her protestations. And now there is a woman’s alliance on this season that has left her out of it. 

[AntFTW]

16 hours ago, Lamima said:

Still why wasn't Tori considered more. Ugh.

Michaela says on The Challenge podcast that Fessy's rationale convinces her to shift away from Tori; that if you save people who have a higher chance of winning power (as Tori is perceived to be), they will return the favor if they have power and protect you further in the game.

16 hours ago, Lamima said:

They only get so far because they group up and bully people to not put them in arena.

That's how you get to the end. Doing whatever it takes to avoid going into elimination is the best way to get to the end.

4 hours ago, jsm1125 said:

I feel for Cassidy. Her time in Survivor 43 was largely spent seeing a bunch of other woman get voted out early, despite her protestations. And now there is a woman’s alliance on this season that has left her out of it. 

Michaela paints a different picture on the podcast. She straight up calls Cassidy delusional.

I think Michaela makes two main points with regard to Cassidy.

The first is that Michaela was never really allied with Cassidy which implies that she had no obligation to include Cassidy in her game play. She says that “Survivor strong” really originated with Michele, Sebastian, Cassidy and Chris as a 4-person alliance that she wasn't involved in. It seems that Michaela never felt like she was a part of that as she didn’t really trust them all that much.

Her second main point is that when the game shifted from teams to individuals, everybody had to pivot. We see Michaela, Chanelle and Desi become open to working with Johnny and Tori. However, from listening to Michaela and Tori, it seems that Cassidy didn't do much pivoting. Cassidy assumed that the same alliance dynamics that had existed when there were teams was still there after the game went to individuals. Cassidy didn't try to pivot to new relationships that would keep her safe. Michaela figured that if she voted in Alyssa for the elimination, the house would vote for Cassidy because she's the easy option as Cassidy was seemingly not connected to many people.

 

Separately, from my point of view just from the snippets we're given in the episodes, Cassidy has been left out of just about all of the women's alliances. As far as I recall, Cassidy was not considered to be a part of the all-women secret garden alliance. Cassidy was not down in elimination because she's weak and they're strong (maybe a little). She's mostly down there because she's unconnected. There is no blowback for voting Cassidy into elimination. No one other than Cassidy is going to be mad.

Michaela, Desi, and Chanelle are always shown together and strategizing together. Granted, we're only shown a few minutes of the hours and days that pass by in The Challenge house but we never really see Cassidy in the room with them while they're plotting. We don't really see Cassidy with any of the other girls plotting a game move. Cassidy's whole story has been "Survivor, Survivor, Survivor" and "Wes is coming after me."

Edited September 22, 2023 by AntFTW

[aghst]

Daily and the elimination games were both cool, though mainly physical, no problem-solving aspect at all.

Chennelle hasn’t performed well at all.  She might do well in a physical elimination because she’s one of the bigger women but that’s about it.

Some of these first-time challengers really seems to have high expectations.  Alyssa put her stuff in storage and Chris really seems to be relying on winning this season to cover his financial problems.

Um they were cast on one reality show and now a second show, so do they really think doing competitive reality TV shows is a reliable way to make money?

How about looking for a steady job or going back to school?  Alyssa is going to do an animal rescue business?  That doesn’t sound terribly reliable.

Alyssa should have tried to get on a fake drama reality show like VPR or something in that vein.  She’s not strong or athletic enough for competitive shows.

 

These shows are able to cast these photogenic people who apparently have no career prospects.  So appearing on these shows seem exciting but only a few can win often enough or develop a big fan following that these shows may actually pay them to keep appearing.

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, aghst said:

Some of these first-time challengers really seems to have high expectations.  Alyssa put her stuff in storage and Chris really seems to be relying on winning this season to cover his financial problems.

Um they were cast on one reality show and now a second show, so do they really think doing competitive reality TV shows is a reliable way to make money?

A lot of these vets seem to make their living doing this shit so I don't see why it's so crazy for people to think maybe they'll get a chance to do that, too.

I was SO happy to see Wes go. I think I may hate him more than Johnny at this point. I hope his retirement sticks but we all know it won't. The second that kid is born he's gonna tell his wife he got an offer for The Challenge: All Stars and hightail it out of there lol.

[aghst]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

A lot of these vets seem to make their living doing this shit so I don't see why it's so crazy for people to think maybe they'll get a chance to do that, too.

I was SO happy to see Wes go. I think I may hate him more than Johnny at this point. I hope his retirement sticks but we all know it won't. The second that kid is born he's gonna tell his wife he got an offer for The Challenge: All Stars and hightail it out of there lol.

Well a lot of people have come and gone on these Challenge shows.

A few of the more newer contestants have stuck around but most are one or two seasons and done.

I guess if they can make appearance fees, it's worth trying to stick around but are those fees for newbies enough to make up for not taking a regular job, especially something that leads to a sustainable career?

Or are they really counting on winning the big prize often enough to justify the opportunity cost of pursuing something else?

[AntFTW]

This is where I think the game is starting to get boring.

The game of everyone vs. the vets was fun. It was fun seeing the vets scramble and do whatever they have to in order to stay in the game. It was fun watching them be outnumbered and have their backs against the wall. That's when I think people play their best games and gives us an entertaining show.

When you think of all the widely known winners and all of the debates on who is the greatest player (like CT, Jordan, Cara Maria, Johnny and anyone else), they all had at least one season where they had to play a "balls to the wall" game. Maybe they came out on top or fell just short but they played like they have nothing to lose and everything to gain. The MTV vets (minus Cory) have had to do that for most of this season; to just try something risky, and see if it would work.

I think that if the MTV vets were the very first ones eliminated, this show would have went back to the boring nonsense it was with the first season.

Now, the dynamics of the game has changed and people aren't scrambling so much anymore so now it's less fun. I want to see Desi, Michaela, and Chanelle be willing to turn against each other. I want to see Josh throw Faysal in. I want to see Faysal scramble a little bit.

At the end of it all, it will probably be 4 men and 4 women going to the final. For the women, I can see Michele and Cassidy being the odd women out if they don't win power. We have 6 women left, and one of the "strong girls" (Tori, Michaela, Desi, Chanelle) will have to be the sacrificial lamb and go into elimination to get either Michele or Cassidy out eventually. For the guys, Chris and Tyler are the odd men out. One of the "strong guys" (Faysal, Josh, Johnny, Cory) will have to be one to risk going into elimination to get out either Tyler or Chris. I would like to get the point where that starts to happen.

Edited September 23, 2023 by AntFTW

[RedbirdNelly]

I'm really enjoying the hopper. The fact the only way to be 100% safe is to win a daily is great. Much less boring. 

editing to add i'm not a Fessy fan but he's been a lot less annoying this season. Josh never stops being Josh.

Edited September 23, 2023 by RedbirdNelly

[AntFTW]

14 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

i'm not a Fessy fan but he's been a lot less annoying this season

I think that's because he's been a lot less visible. It feels like his first appearance this season was maybe two episodes ago 😂

On 9/22/2023 at 2:08 AM, AntFTW said:

One thing I like about this season is the randomness of the hopper.

16 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I'm really enjoying the hopper. The fact the only way to be 100% safe is to win a daily is great. Much less boring.

Agreed. That's one concept that they could transfer to the flagship show.

That's why I had to give Wes some credit for playing a good game. Getting 3 out of 12 votes is a sign that he was doing good at the politics of the game because an overwhelming majority of the house wanted someone else. The rules of the game depended on luck, and he just didn't have any in this episode.

[aghst]

20 minutes ago, RedbirdNelly said:

I'm really enjoying the hopper. The fact the only way to be 100% safe is to win a daily is great. Much less boring. 

editing to add i'm not a Fessy fan but he's been a lot less annoying this season. Josh never stops being Josh.

The secret voting has loosened things up too.

Wes knew from whom 2 he got two votes.  He didn't know about the third one, which may have clinched him going into elimination.

BTW, he blew it letting go of the bar and swinging free in the air.  That is how Chris caught him and wrapped his legs around so he couldn't get away.

He needed to hang on to the bar so he could reverse direction when Chris did.

Surprised there wasn't more violent warding off, like strike the chaser's arms to prevent him from putting his hands on the runner.  Or punch him in the balls and his legs would instantly loosen their grip around his waist.

[AntFTW]

16 minutes ago, aghst said:

BTW, he blew it letting go of the bar and swinging free in the air.  That is how Chris caught him and wrapped his legs around so he couldn't get away.

He needed to hang on to the bar so he could reverse direction when Chris did.

Yeah, he did. He lost control when he was up there looking like Peter Pan.

Once he was out there, he couldn't stop himself, and all Chris had to do was let Wes come to him.

Cory made me laugh when his venus flytrap comment because I thought it was so accurate. 😂

[jsm1125]

I know Wes has his fair share of detractors, but I’m surprised the non-vets weren’t willing to work more with both him and Amanda this season.

Wes is one of the few vets that likes working with the rookies, and Amanda seemingly has nobody but Josh in this game. Targeting them seemed pointless from a Survivor standpoint. 
 

[jabRI]

I want to like this show, but I'm tired of the alliances and the strategy.  just go out and try to win.  Its money, everyone is playing for themselves in the end, anything else they say is just ridiculous.

[DEL901]

10 hours ago, jabRI said:

I want to like this show, but I'm tired of the alliances and the strategy.  just go out and try to win.  Its money, everyone is playing for themselves in the end, anything else they say is just ridiculous.

I think the competition is actually in two phases.  Part one is getting to the finals.   Here you can use allies.   But Josh, and I can’t believe I am saying this, is not wrong, but it is better if you can get rid of folks you can’t beat.  Part two is the finals which is usually around 8 people.  This is everyone for themselves.  

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, DEL901 said:

But Josh, and I can’t believe I am saying this, is not wrong, but it is better if you can get rid of folks you can’t beat.

So then Josh has to get rid of everybody. Everybody has to go 😂

[AntFTW]

20 hours ago, jsm1125 said:

I know Wes has his fair share of detractors, but I’m surprised the non-vets weren’t willing to work more with both him and Amanda this season.

Wes is one of the few vets that likes working with the rookies, and Amanda seemingly has nobody but Josh in this game. Targeting them seemed pointless from a Survivor standpoint. 
 

Wes goes into this a little bit on Johnny’s podcast. If you’re a fan of The Challenge and have watched Wes play the game, you know his typical move is rally the newcomers and work with them.

Wes says that everyone thought he was going to stick with the vets and take them all out. Clearly, we see Wes stick with the vets but it seems like they didn’t give him a choice. I guess they didn’t know that he’s known for working with rookies to take out other vets.

[luckyroll3]

On 9/21/2023 at 11:19 PM, AntFTW said:

They finally get one of the bigger named vets out with Wes, and it's so anticlimactic.

This! Also, they gave Alyssa so much time to the ending package and I was like, nobody here cares about her! 

On 9/24/2023 at 11:04 AM, AntFTW said:

So then Josh has to get rid of everybody. Everybody has to go 😂

I was thinking the same thing. Wes also said as much in his People interview. If Josh is worried about people who can beat him, he needs to take out everyone!

[AntFTW]

If Josh manages to get out Johnny and Faysal, I'm here for it... even if he doesn't make it to the final.

I specifically don't want to see Faysal in another final. If Faysal makes it to the final, I want Johnny there too just so I can see Johnny walk right past him and beat him again 😂

If Faysal makes it to the final, I want it on a mountain and in knee deep snow.

[bunnyface]

1 minute ago, AntFTW said:

I specifically don't want to see Faysal in another final. If Faysal makes it to the final, I want Johnny there too just so I can see Johnny walk right past him and beat him again 😂

If Faysal makes it to the final, I want it on a mountain and in knee deep snow.

If I remember correctly, it just has to involving eating.  The girl with the broken leg was perfectly willing to eat and keep going but not our precious Faysal.  Wouldn't do it.

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, bunnyface said:

If I remember correctly, it just has to involving eating.  The girl with the broken leg was perfectly willing to eat and keep going but not our precious Faysal.  Wouldn't do it.

Yes, but that's a different final. The final that Johnny beat Fessy in was on the top of a snow-covered mountain.

[bunnyface]

I had forgotten he was in any final other than the one with Casey.

[AntFTW]

Now, we can be reminded of Faysal losing all over again 😌

 

[bunnyface]

Okay, as much as I hate the thought of Bananas winning another season, ever, I will allow it if he promises to come from behind to beat Fessy by 15 seconds.  I want Fessy to be so close he thinks he has it but gets to see someone win it from him. That's what I want for Christmas.

[AntFTW]

5 minutes ago, bunnyface said:

Okay, as much as I hate the thought of Bananas winning another season, ever, I will allow it if he promises to come from behind to beat Fessy by 15 seconds.  I want Fessy to be so close he thinks he has it but gets to see someone win it from him. That's what I want for Christmas.

[AncientNewbie]

Ah, memories...Faysal refusing to eat but somehow blaming it on Kaycee's knee when she was ready to go. If they keep coming him back, somehow he will eventually win, but probably only if it's a 1v1 against Josh. After which he will claim to be the GOAT. 

I was sad to see Wes go. He's had his dickish moments over the years (Fresh Meat with Casey) but when he leans into the hubris and turns it up to 12 for our enjoyment, he is quite a character. 

 

[millennium]

On 9/23/2023 at 12:12 AM, aghst said:

Chris really seems to be relying on winning this season to cover his financial problems.

Umm, he won a million dollars on Survivor. 

Wes, take care of yourself.  I know we'll see you in the future.

Edited October 7, 2023 by millennium

[Lantern7]

23 hours ago, millennium said:

Umm, he won a million dollars on Survivor. 

Wes, take care of yourself.  I know we'll see you in the future.

1. I didn't know about Chris having financial troubles. I also figure that $1 million doesn't go as far as it used to.

2. I can see Wes leaving and not coming back. My cynicism says otherwise, but the guy has a lot of businesses, and money isn't a huge issue for him. He might not come back to feed his kid.

[aghst]

23 hours ago, millennium said:

Umm, he won a million dollars on Survivor. 

Wes, take care of yourself.  I know we'll see you in the future.

 

16 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

1. I didn't know about Chris having financial troubles. I also figure that $1 million doesn't go as far as it used to.

"Financial problems" was probably not the best phrase on my part.

But I would imagine after taxes, it covers a few years of living expenses if Chris has no other source of income than appearing on these shows and trying to win prize money.

His wife may not be working either if she just gave birth.

So he seems to be counting on winning the prize money.  Nothing new on the Challenge, people who have young children or are going to have children talk up their money issues.

Chris though keeps talking about it.  This last episode, he says every day is a $250k decision.  He's mentioned "two hundred fifty thousand" several times.

More than Corey, more than others who cite money as their motivation.

Tori just won and she doesn't have children so she doesn't talk about money a lot.  But she's devoted several years now to doing various forms of The Challenge, skipped a chance to pursue a normal career.

So she's all-in on earning a living doing this particular show -- don't think she does any other shows, while I just saw a commercial for Bananas doing some other new competitive reality show, forgot the name but it looked dumb, but there's $200k in prize money they said.

 

 

[millennium]

2 minutes ago, aghst said:

just saw a commercial for Bananas doing some other new competitive reality show, forgot the name but it looked dumb, but there's $200k in prize money they said.

House of Villains.   I was embarrassed for Bananas when I saw that.   It's beneath him, IMO.  But he's looking at a future with no other career to fall back on.   An injury, an accident -- a social media faux pas -- could leave him out in the cold (that is, if ageism doesn't get him first).   What happened to Nelson must have sent a shiver down all their spines.    What does his future look like?   It's understandable that Bananas would put the prize over pride.

 

11 minutes ago, aghst said:

but she's devoted several years now to doing various forms of The Challenge, skipped a chance to pursue a normal career.

Tori says she's writing a children's book.   Isn't everyone?

[millennium]

37 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

 

2. I can see Wes leaving and not coming back. My cynicism says otherwise, but the guy has a lot of businesses, and money isn't a huge issue for him. He might not come back to feed his kid.

You may be right.  I hope not, because The Challenge is inextricable from who he is as a person.  He said as much in a recent interview.  He blustered and put a happy face on his decision to retire but it had a rueful quality.

I think the greatest disservice a mother or father can do to a child is to stop being themselves just because they become parents.  Yes, parenthood changes you, and it should, but not to the point where you really start relating to the song "Glory Days."  

Brand new parents tend to overestimate the demands of parenting and feel overwhelmed at first, like "this is my life now, I have to put everything else aside."   I suspect (and hope) Wes will eventually learn there's room enough to be a great parent and still take the occasional six-week break to do The Challenge.

[aghst]

But when is the last time Wes won prize money?

Seems like a long, long time ago.

He doesn’t strike fear among others in an elimination.

 

[jsm1125]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

But when is the last time Wes won prize money?

Seems like a long, long time ago.

He doesn’t strike fear among others in an elimination.

 

He did win All Stars 3 recently. 

[AntFTW]

9 hours ago, aghst said:

But when is the last time Wes won prize money?

Seems like a long, long time ago.

He doesn’t strike fear among others in an elimination.

 

5 hours ago, jsm1125 said:

He did win All Stars 3 recently. 

On the flagship, season 24 Rivals 2 was the last time he won, and he was partnered with CT. It was CT's first win. After that, he wasn't coming back as consistently as Johnny and CT.

[AntFTW]

Johnny and Fessy talk about this daily challenge on Johnny's podcast. They don't talk much about how other heats. However, in the episode, when it down to Johnny and Fessy, we see them take the jump and Fessy grabs the baton and Johnny doesn't, and therefore wins.

Johnny and Fessy say that it took several attempts to finish the challenge, rather than the 'one and done' we see on the episode. They had to make the jump several times.

 

Edited October 19, 2023 by AntFTW