S01.E07: The Smoking Gun

[paigow]

Betrayal! Murder! Another Tuesday for Raylan....

[seacliffsal]

So, everyone in Detroit is crooked?  Okay then...

It is an interesting series when Raylan appears to be the most sane, stable, and upright.  I know this may be unpopular, but I hope Sandy pays some kind of price for being the root of some of the attacks/deaths.  I felt like there was a sympathy play being made for her and her "mistakes" but mistakes may bring consequences.  Didn't foresee Caroline working with the Albanians though.

[Dowel Jones]

I just couldn't watch Sandy's appeal to the Albanian guy without groaning in laughter.  "Yes, I set you up to be robbed.  Yes, you almost got killed.  But I still love you. (Bats her eyes).  We could go off to somewhere nice and live honestly, mmmm?  You believe me, don't you?"  (Albanian guy) "You're a dead woman."

[BeckyThatcher]

The smoking gun is no more. I wasted time reading about the Detroit River’s depth (53 ft at its deepest!) and speed. Pointless with no prints.
Taunt episode including the reprise of Raylan, a table, and a gun for a possible showdown.   

 

[paigow]

Toma destroyed evidence in front of Raylan... WTF???

He is going to torture and kill Clement for sure... Now he has to kill Raylan and bring Federal Heat on himself.

All he had to do was leave Raylan in the bar.

[tv-talk]

Sorry but this story makes no sense in terms of it all being resolved in one more episode. I mean what's going to be the big reveal that everyone is supposed to be shocked over and care about? Mansell is related to [some big time official]? So what?

The Albanians are such a force they are going to murder a US Marshall? Because one of their guys had his leg broken? That doesnt make sense.

I am dreading how this is all going to tie up ie the judge's book implicates Albanians and some officials, Carolyn is bad but not so bad, the 2 cops were just assholes who dont care about catching the real killer, etc

Oh and I hope Sandy gets shot dead. Why not? You know several people are going to take bullets (Mansell and maybe Carolyn), she mights as well catch one too rather than just have the flighty hot thang skate thru this mess she helped create. Although I did think Raylan was looking at her like "Oh you dont realize you're going to jail" when she was wishing for a new start.

Edited August 23, 2023 by tv-talk

[Crashcourse]

I almost dozed off towards the end.  

[Starchild]

5 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

Didn't foresee Caroline working with the Albanians though.

I'm guessing she's motivated by revenge for Sweetie, but she doesn't care that Raylan could get caught in the crossfire? Cold, girl.

[paigow]

49 minutes ago, Starchild said:

but she doesn't care that Raylan could get caught in the crossfire? Cold, girl.

Eliminates the breakup talk / sexy times...

Is Raylan wearing a tracking beacon so the Chief Marshal can save the day?

Edited August 23, 2023 by paigow

[tv-talk]

51 minutes ago, Starchild said:

I'm guessing she's motivated by revenge for Sweetie, but she doesn't care that Raylan could get caught in the crossfire? Cold, girl.

Yeah she could have told him the Albanians were on the way rather than just hope he'd decide to get a drink with her. At the same time I'd assume she didnt know the Albanians would want to kill Raylan as well, and why that is will be part of the reveal.

I'm overall disappointed with this series, given the build-up of Justified retruning, probably my fav series of all-times and unquestionably the one with the single best final scene in TV history for my money.

Soooo...I'd be fine with Boyd showing up at last second, the two of them shooting everyone, and then Boyd nodding knowingly at Raylan as he says "we dug coal together." Might as well!

[paigow]

Trope 1: Raylan & Clement form an uneasy alliance to kill all the Albanians. Much like when Raylan had to trust Boyd during a shootout...

Trope 2: Bad cop put a tracker in the gun, so P.D. can start searching from the bridge.

[peeayebee]

I'm ready for the show to end.

When Mansell picked up that paperweight, I thought he was going to throw
it at Sandy. Thought it was ridiculous that he simply took it so he could break into a car.

I guess this is a trope: Whenever a character starts talking to someone they don't see yet, like here when Sandy was answering the door thinking it was Mansell, you KNOW that the person on the other side is not who they expect. This also happens ALL THE TIME when a character walks into a house and starts talking to an unseen person. You know that person is either dead or not there. I absolutely hate this trope.

Loved this line: "You have broken my heart… and also my leg."

[thuganomics85]

Ah, so in typical television fashion, Maureen, the cop who was initially supportive enough with Raylan, ends up being the crooked one (sounds like she's in the black book too?), while the asshole, Norbert, ends up providing the assist since he might be an asshole, but he's got some lines he won't cross, dammit!  Of course, on the surface, it really doesn't matter since the murder weapon is now at the bottom of the Detroit River (like Mansell wanted!)  But I imagine there will be more to this.

Figured the Albanians would rear their heads back up at some point, and I guess having both Raylan and Mansell in their clutches could make the finale kind of interesting.  Will the two of them have to form an uneasy, temporary alliance of some kind to get out of this situation?

It's too bad that Sandy has mainly been underdeveloped, because her stupid attempt to get her initial mark to help her could have been amusingly charming in a "Oh, you stupid criminal!" kind of way.  But I really could care less about her fate.  Adelaide Clemens isn't the issue performance wise, but the character hasn't really moved past being Mansell's kind of bickering squeeze.

My prediction: Carolyn will be the one who kills Mansell somehow.

The Raylan/Mansell scene at the restaurant was definitely teasing a similar situation to Raylan/Tommy Bucks from way back in the original series' first episode, but it obviously wasn't going to happen.

Still kind of curious to see how this wraps up, but I think I'm officially on the disappointed train right now.  Kind of agree with what some have said that Raylan almost feels like a supporting character now.  Honestly feels more like Mansell is the villainous protagonist, while Raylan's in the shadows trying to stop him.  Just an odd approach here.

[peeayebee]

7 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Figured the Albanians would rear their heads back up at some point, and I guess having both Raylan and Mansell in their clutches could make the finale kind of interesting.  Will the two of them have to form an uneasy, temporary alliance of some kind to get out of this situation?

I will say yes. I suppose the two of them together will be formidable. Obviously Raylan will come out alive. I'm thinking Mansell will too.

I was rolling my eyes at Toma walking across the road to toss the gun into the river when he easily could have done it on the side where the car was stopped. Of course that wouldn't have been so dramatic, both for the show and for the character, who probably likes that sort of performance. 

[Dowel Jones]

Maybe he wanted to hide the fact that the gun he threw in the river is not the murder weapon, and he has plans for that.

[Bcharmer]

11 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Adelaide Clemens isn't the issue performance wise

OMG... I just now realized where I've seen her before. She gave an outstanding performance as Tawney Talbot in Rectify (it aired on the Sundance channel). And if anyone hasn't watched that incredible series yet, I highly recommend putting it on your list.

[peeayebee]

Yes, that was a beautiful series with amazing performances all around. It's been kind of hard seeing Adelaide portray a superficial, scheming druggie after seeing her as Tawney. But then, as Jon Lovitz would say, "ACTING!"

[paigow]

11 hours ago, Dowel Jones said:

Maybe he wanted to hide the fact that the gun he threw in the river is not the murder weapon, and he has plans for that.

If Mansell is dead, the murder weapon is worthless as a bargaining chip...

[mythoughtis]

On 8/23/2023 at 9:54 AM, seacliffsal said:

Didn't foresee Caroline working with the Albanians though.

Was she?  My take was that they invaded her house much like Mansell and ‘encouraged’ her to call Raylon.  Although I don’t know why the Albanians care about him.   
 

Other than Raylon,  the only person that seems to not be corrupt is the bartender. 
 

This show is disappointing.  why couldn’t they go back to Harlan? Even with an all new cast  if they had to. 

[paigow]

18 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

This show is disappointing.  why couldn’t they go back to Harlan? Even with an all new cast  if they had to. 

Raylan eradicated all major criminal elements [Boyd, Mags] in Harlan while turning on the No Vacancy sign for Dixie Mafia & Detroit Mob. Any criminals remaining would not be on Federal radar. Harlan has no stories.

[mythoughtis]

20 minutes ago, paigow said:

Raylan eradicated all major criminal elements [Boyd, Mags] in Harlan while turning on the No Vacancy sign for Dixie Mafia & Detroit Mob. Any criminals remaining would not be on Federal radar. Harlan has no stories.

“nature abhors a vacuum”.    There are always more criminals. It’s fiction- they can write new ones.  Just think of all the shows that have invented long lost relatives to add characters. 
 

Harlan had a certain feel that Detroit does not.   Raylon had a closeness with the characters there.  He’s got absolutely no chemistry with the Detroit folks- including Carolyn. 

Edited August 25, 2023 by mythoughtis

[peeayebee]

44 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

Was she?  My take was that they invaded her house much like Mansell and ‘encouraged’ her to call Raylon.  Although I don’t know why the Albanians care about him.   

Thanks. I was left a little confused about this. It makes more sense that they were  forcing her to call Raylan than that she was working with them, which was my first ("Huh?") reaction. 

I suppose they wanted to know to get to Raylan because they figured Mansell would be with him? Because Raylan was looking for him too? I'm really stretching here.

Also, Skender probably told them about Sandy talking to him. Maybe the Albanians... Nah. I got nothing.

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

Was she?  My take was that they invaded her house much like Mansell and ‘encouraged’ her to call Raylon.

It looked to me like she was calling from the nursing home office.

[mythoughtis]

38 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

It looked to me like she was calling from the nursing home office.

It took me a couple minutes to remember the nursing home.  I kept thinking ‘ what nursing home office’.   That is how boring  I’m finding this season. Have we seen Carolyn at the nursing home before? 

[peeayebee]

My brain is really not cooperating today. Where/when did we see the nursing home? Who is there? 

[KittyQ]

15 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

My brain is really not cooperating today. Where/when did we see the nursing home? Who is there? 

That would be the Albanian leader, isn't it? I thought that he was "retired" and living in assisted living (so he could leave whenever he wanted). 

My impression was that Carolyn went to them, since she was finally convinced how dangerous Mansell was, once he killed Sweety. Like Sandy, Carolyn seemed to think that she was inviolable as far as Mansell is concerned, but they are both wrong.

[paigow]

19 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Where/when did we see the nursing home? Who is there? 

When P.D. dropped a dime on Mansell to Toma... contrary to what Raylan wanted.

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, KittyQ said:

My impression was that Carolyn went to them, since she was finally convinced how dangerous Mansell was, once he killed Sweety.

Right, she set them on Mansell. If they had forced the info out of her she'd have told Raylan on the phone that they were on the way. Instead, she simply asked Givens to grab a drink in an effort to keep him out of the Albanians way- but that was all she did. Doesnt seem to make sense, to me anyway. 

[seacliffsal]

44 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Right, she set them on Mansell. If they had forced the info out of her she'd have told Raylan on the phone that they were on the way. Instead, she simply asked Givens to grab a drink in an effort to keep him out of the Albanians way- but that was all she did. Doesnt seem to make sense, to me anyway. 

None of this seems to make any sense to me.  

For whatever reason, Raylan is just really off of his game.  If this is the last Justified it will sadden me to have these be the last scenes/memories of Raylan.  They need to rehab his image back to what he used to be.

[Crashcourse]

None of this make sense to me either.  

Eeeeevil Tighty Whities dude is a joke.   

I don't understand what Carolyn's end game is.  

I don't understand how Sandy could be so dumb as to believe the Albanian guy would forgive and forget what she did to him, and they'd just ride off into the sunset--err...a romantic island somewhere. 

I don't understand why Raylan and Carolyn hooked up in the first place.  Can he not keep his junk in his pants and just do his job?  Did she just want a lazy romp in the bed with him?

At first I liked the female detective, but then she turned out to be an ass.

This was a poorly written/poorly executed show, and I find it hard to believe everything will be resolved in just one more episode.   

[buttersister]

Quote

Harlan had a certain feel that Detroit does not

Here in Chicago, we got lots of notices last year about Justified being filmed nearby. Just saying.

[peeayebee]

4 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

None of this make sense to me either.  

I'm glad I'm not the only one.  

Quote

I don't understand what Carolyn's end game is.

Isn't it now to have the Albanians kill Mansell? Before it was to become a judge.  

Quote

I don't understand how Sandy could be so dumb as to believe the Albanian guy would forgive and forget what she did to him, and they'd just ride off into the sunset--err...a romantic island somewhere. 

My explanation is that she's not too bright, but she thought she could use her feminine wiles to win him over. But, yeah, just not too bright. 

Quote

I don't understand why Raylan and Carolyn hooked up in the first place.  Can he not keep his junk in his pants and just do his job?  Did she just want a lazy romp in the bed with him?

Didn't you see the chemistry? Yeah, me neither. Honestly, I think this was just filler. It probably also gave more excuses for the two characters to appear together for exposition and so forth. :shrug:

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

If this is the last Justified it will sadden me to have these be the last scenes/memories of Raylan. 

Oh I'm pretty sure this is the very last of Justified. It this long to come back and doesnt hold a candle to the original, this is it I am pretty sure.

What's a shame is they didnt have to use Elmore Leonard material. They could have just written the story forward from where it ended. I mean sure, if they had some absurd reason that Boyd was free it'd be like "ok this is dumb" but after 1st ep...Boyd would have been out and they could have just written a cool story. If they had good writers anyway. Really a lost opportunity I think, any fan of the show will tell you that Boyd Crowder, not Raylan, is a top5 character in television history. And I love Raylan but Boyd was the magic and Mansell in his draws is just a joke in comparison. 

[MrWhyt]

7 hours ago, KittyQ said:

That would be the Albanian leader, isn't it? I thought that he was "retired" and living in assisted living (so he could leave whenever he wanted).

he explained in the episode we first meet him in. His mother stayed there and at one point then he bought the place. It's being used as a front for his organization.

Edited August 26, 2023 by MrWhyt

[KittyQ]

33 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

he explained in the episode we first meet him in. His mother stayed there and at one point then he bought the place. It's being used as a front for his organization.

Thanks! I forgot about that. 

[UnknownK]

I guess they are mad at Raylan because of the goons that got arrested and dead while pulling the roomates teeth out.

[paigow]

On 8/24/2023 at 2:54 AM, thuganomics85 said:

My prediction: Carolyn will be the one who kills Mansell somehow.

Jack White

[luna1122again]

My biggest disconnect for the episode was that we're supposed to believe Carolyn was, like, 10 in 1988. 

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 8/28/2023 at 10:18 AM, luna1122again said:

My biggest disconnect for the episode was that we're supposed to believe Carolyn was, like, 10 in 1988. 

Or that Sweetie was supposed to be what, 35?

[mythoughtis]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Or that Sweetie was supposed to be what, 35?

vondie( Sweetie) was born in 1950.  The actress playing Carolyn was born  in 1969.  So her character being 10 in 1988 is not feasible.  

 

[Tachi Rocinante]

12 hours ago, mythoughtis said:

vondie( Sweetie) was born in 1950.  The actress playing Carolyn was born  in 1969.  So her character being 10 in 1988 is not feasible.  

 

Understood - I was referring to the fact that they did nothing from a makeup perspective to make him look younger.  He looked 60 in the flashback.

[Jordan61]

On 8/25/2023 at 6:25 AM, mythoughtis said:

Harlan had a certain feel that Detroit does not.   Raylon had a closeness with the characters there.  He’s got absolutely no chemistry with the Detroit folks- including Carolyn. 

This is my problem with the new series, as well. One of the things that made the original Justified work so well was Raylan's history with Harlan. He knew everyone (or at least their families) and they knew him (or at least Arlo). He knew how they thought, how they operated, he knew the out of the way hollers, and hunting cabins where someone might be hiding out, and backroads that weren't on any map.

I know this series is based on a story where Raylan is not actually a character. They shoehorned him in to the series so they could call it Justified, and it shows.

[KittyQ]

On 9/1/2023 at 8:57 AM, Jordan61 said:

This is my problem with the new series, as well. One of the things that made the original Justified work so well was Raylan's history with Harlan. He knew everyone (or at least their families) and they knew him (or at least Arlo). He knew how they thought, how they operated, he knew the out of the way hollers, and hunting cabins where someone might be hiding out, and backroads that weren't on any map.

I know this series is based on a story where Raylan is not actually a character. They shoehorned him in to the series so they could call it Justified, and it shows.

After I watched this latest series, I read the book it is based on, and you can see where Raylan was substituted for the original character, Raymond Cruz. The problem is, I think, that Cruz has a different personality than Raylan, so the choices Cruz makes that propel the story forward don't really "fit" Raylan. It's as if he's wearing someone else's suit, with no alterations made to accommodate his different body. The relationship with Carolyn which seemed to come out of nowhere is awkward with Raylan. It is strange in the book, too, but more in keeping with the character's way of life. The people who developed this show also shoehorned in Raylan's daughter (also real-life daughter) which didn't do it any favors. Maybe the actress will develop, but in this case it came across as more of a "take your kid to work" situation to me - she always seemed to be "playing" with her dad, not inhabiting her character. I know, she's supposed to be a teenager, a bit rebellious, but her expressions always seemed like she was just saying the lines. 

The other thing that made this series less satisfying is that the book was set back in the 1980s and the action reflected that. Just adding some mobile phones and newer cars didn't make the behavior and attitudes of the characters seem modern. I would have liked it all better if the writers/producers had taken the bones of the story and really updated it and adjusted it to Raylan's unique way of doing things. If they decide to do another one, I hope that they take time to do it better.