S05.E09: Four Minutes

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, luvthepros said:

Midge should have put on a few pounds by the time she was in her 70's. She still had that awesome figure from when she was a younger woman.

1 hour ago, SnarkShark said:

If they're using Joan Rivers as part of her template...Joan never put on weight. 
If we saw Midge even a bit older (80s) I imagine like Joan she'd look TOO skinny... kind of skeletal.  I had older female relatives who aged like that.  Super-skinny, then eventually TOO skinny.

And Midge's mom was slender throughout her life. 

[chaifan]

I really enjoyed the finale.  I wasn't thrilled with all the flash forwards throughout the season, and still think a lot of them were unnecessary.  But the final one was the best.  I loved everything about Susie - the house, the birds, the hair, the caftan.  Seriously loved the house.  I'm guessing she's in Bali or Thailand or someplace like that. 

I left with the impression that Midge is happy with her life.  I didn't see her as lonely, even though she lived alone in that massive apartment.  As others have said, she knew the ramifications of her career choice very early on, and I don't think she's looking back in regret in any way.  I would have loved to have a one liner or something about Ethan or Esther, or grandkids, but I understand why that didn't happen.  I also really would have liked to see that Susie found love.  It would have been nice to just show someone there with her, even if was for a brief moment. 

For what it's worth, I really liked Midge's style of comedy, and I laughed out loud often during a lot of her gigs.  The Gordon Ford 4 minutes (so glad someone timed that, because I thought that was a really long 4 minutes while watching) was more of a callback to the first episode.  I thought it was funny, but I was ok with sacrificing a really sharp, cutting edge set for the artistic set that it was.  I loved the flashes over to Gordon with genuine amazement.  I took his invite to the couch and "you're fired" as true admiration of her ability to do that on the fly, and an acknowledgement that she doesn't need him anymore.  And we finally, FINALLY, had someone call her Marvelous! 

So here's what I'd love to see in a special DVD - an editor's cut with everything put in chronological order.  I wonder how that would play out.  All the bouncing around of timelines did get me confused.  I had a hard time remembering the time lapse between different flash forwards.  For example, what year was the testi-roastial?  How many decades of friendship did Midge and Susie get in the end? 

And now, I can allow myself to watch Alex's standup special on Prime.  I purposely held off, because it would have been so weird to see Alex as Alex and not Susie. 

I'm going to miss this show.  If the writers strike impacts the fall schedule, I can see my self doing a re-watch of this.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by chaifan

[luvthepros]

7 hours ago, alalaxmom said:

Snagged this picture from Rachel Brosnahan’s FB page. I’m not seeing any kids or grandkids on the piano. 

Correct. Those are not family photos. Is that Sinatra at the far right?

[luvthepros]

8 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

Midge got fired because she went around the boss to get what she wanted. Regardless of whether she was a hit or a flop, there is no way she could have continued on the show because there would be chaos and Gordon would no longer been seen as being in control of his own show. 

You don't go around the boss. Not only did she go around him, then she went rogue and took the mic? Flat out insubordination by today's standards--let alone 1950s-60s--and even worse, it was a woman doing it. 

Gordon asked her on the couch because of the audience reaction and because the audience didn't know the backstory--he was being a good tv host. But as the name on the show and the ultimate decision maker about on-air talent? Bye-bye Midge. 

Yet, Gordon announced to the audience that Mrs. Maisel will be back on his show.

[Sarah 103]

On 5/26/2023 at 2:07 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

The Palladinos really like musical theater. Notice how many excerpts from original cast albums they’ve used. 

Yes, but I saw it more as a commentary (commentary isn't the right word here, but I can't come up with a better one so it's what I'm going with) on the era. The centrality/pervasiveness of Broadway show tunes at that time. Ed Sullivan frequently had the cast or part of the cast of a Broadway show do a few songs on his show. It was not unusual at all to have songs from Broadway show tunes on the Top 40/Hot 100 charts. 

On 5/26/2023 at 2:47 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

I'm a bit diappointed that Midge isn't back with Joel. I think after all the growing both of them have done, they would be good for each other now. Makes me even wonder if they were back together for a time and he's dead now?

That's my theory. They may not have married again, but they remained good friends and in each other's lives. 

On 5/26/2023 at 3:09 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

I loved that Midge and Susie were just two old yentas watching Jeopardy together at the end.  But it’s never explained whether they got the mob off their backs. 

I'm guessing it happened sometime in the 1970s or 1980s, when the Mob lost power and was no longer the force in the entertainment industry that it had been. 

On 5/26/2023 at 12:54 PM, AriAu said:

Alex Borstein's Emmy roll reveal of the Hedy story....heartbreaking and brave performance.

I'm glad we got the full Hedy story. Once Susie mentioned that she hated the way Hedy chewed, that told you everything you needed to know. That's not something you notice about most people. It shows a close relationship, and that she really paid attention to Hedy as a person and knew her habits. Their plan to move to Egypt and rent camels to tourists while raising children they adopted is the kind of crazy fantasy you plan with someone you have a strong bond with, whether it's a romance or a best friend. 

On 5/26/2023 at 1:11 PM, bourbon said:

This show has always been a Technicolor fantasy of a 1960s NYC that never really existed. Then this season, we got hit in the face with a cold bucket of reality.

It reminded me a bit of Goodfellas. You spend the first half of the movie being seduced into the mob lifestyle. The movie makes it look cool, but then partway through you start to realize/remember how awful and messed up it is. 

On 5/26/2023 at 1:21 PM, shapeshifter said:

I wanted to see Midge appear on a '70s game show. Tattle Tales would have been great.

Midge on a 1970s game show would be beyond fantastic. Hollywood Squares would be perfect for her. 

On 5/26/2023 at 2:44 PM, whiporee said:

That was supposed to be right after Midge and Lenny went blue in the blue room, before he actually tried to line up Tony Bennett for her and before his Carnegie Hall set. They were in the afterglow. If you think of that scene as canon, that's why he was so upset with her about the Bennett thing -- he had done a nice thing, he knew her talent and had complimented her, but then she went back and pissed away an opportunity. 

This is was something I was trying to figure out, and I think you helped. If I understand it correctly, the timeline is 1. the night in the blue room, 2. the scene with them getting chinese food. 3. the next day is Lenny's performance at Carnegie Hall. (I know there was stuff that happened in between 2 and 3. I'm just thinking about the major events/the arc of Midge's story and what role Lenny plays in that).

On 5/26/2023 at 6:16 PM, Oosala said:

That opening scene was a tragedy, in its most fundamental form.  Everyone knows the inevitable nature of the Lenny Bruce story, but to have to see it happening on the screen to an actor I really fell in love with -- yes, it broke my heart.  That's why I was so happy for Lenny's second appearance, where he's still relatively healthy and had just spent that wild night with Midge.  *chef's kiss*

I knew what Lenny was like later in his career, so I kind of expected it, but it was still absolutely heartbreaking and devestating to see how far he'd fallen and that he lost that spark, that magic, his very essence. The second apperance of Lenny in this episode, the actual last scene we see of him in the series, the scene in the Chinese place, that is how we want to remember Lenny and how fans of the show will remember him. 

19 hours ago, Red Fields said:

I adored that Susie routinely fed the pigeons on the inside windowsill in her office. I knew it was a bad idea for Midge to put her arm on it and chuckled when she got poop on her elbow. That dress was really nice too.

I wonder if Susie saw herself as one of the pigeons. There aren't many places for them and most people see them as unwelcome. They deserve a place in this world and Susie, in her own small way, makes a space/place for them on the windowsill of her office. 

7 hours ago, watch2much said:

Bittersweet ending.  But it's clear that performing is the most important thing in her life.  When going over her schedule about performing in England, they say Dec. and she says "I want to be in NY for the holiday" but then says if necessary Dec. will be ok.  Then having to work every possible time.  Why was she still so driven?  Even Susie seems to be enjoying herself more.

I think the only place Midge is truly happy is onstage. She needs applause and the love of the audience. 

@luvtheprosI think the photo on the far right is Andy Warhol. 

Overall, I enjoyed the episode and found it a satisfying series finale.

I do wish we had found out, even if it was just in a brief line or two, what her relationship with her children is like. In the roughly 20 years between the flashbacks and 2005, her relationship with them could have improved. 

Instead of a movie, I would like to propose Marvelous shorts. Short films that take place between the end of the series and present day. Things that would fill in the time between the flashbacks. Anything in Midge's life (and the lives of her family and friends) between 1961 and up to when she dies would be fair game. 

[Sarah 103]

Someone asked who was watching Ethan and Esther during the Gordan Ford Show. According to an interview in this article https://tvline.com/2023/05/26/mrs-maisel-season-5-finale-explained-amy-sherman-palladino-interview/ Moishe is not in the audience at the Gordon Ford show, so he could be watching Ethan and Esther. 

[janie jones]

3 hours ago, Riplet68 said:

I saw Gordon’s “you’re fired” as a kudos to her. Knowing she was going to leave for bigger things and jokingly saying it. I liked the ending, loved  Susie’s assistant.

Yeah, he winked at her while he was saying it. But I also think part of it was what someone else said above -- that if Midge gets away with it, then what's going to stop the other writers from trying to pull something similar.

3 hours ago, luvthepros said:

Two comments about the aging of these two actresses.....

Why was Susie's hair that texture and curley? As a younger woman, her hair was thin and straight as a pin.

Midge should have put on a few pounds by the time she was in her 70's. She still had that awesome figure from when she was a younger woman.

 

Doesn't some people's gray hair have a different texture from their original hair? And also, I think some people get thinner and frailer as they age. I think I'm seeing that in my mom. I don't remember her being so bony before.

I thought Midge's routine was less funny than other ones we've seen. But stuff that gets characters laughing on TV shows/movies is rarely something I actually find funny. I just accept that those people think it's funny. Like, I don't think Zachary Levi is good looking, but I accept that all the characters on the show did.

Edited May 27, 2023 by janie jones

[debraran]

I really liked the ending but like many wished she tied up loose ends a little better. I know Joel was dead but mention him in some way.

I liked her set, but I loved Gordon's reactions even more. When he said "You're fired" I was smiling as much as Midge.

I thought since Rachel really didn't want to see Lenny die or hear of his death, she said Midge would be devastated, that they did it  better by just showing his decline. Having her in the alley hurt at first but seeing her tears, I think Lenny would have hated it later too.   I watched Carnegie Hall again after in parts to see them again and it refreshed my memory that he said he'd take her to Chinese after he bailed out the clubs members that were arrested. I still marvel at that chemistry in the blue room.....I wish it went on longer.

It was odd seeing Midge older, she seemed young in voice but puffier and as someone said earlier more Bea Arthur than Blanche : )

Susie reminded me of Lily Tomlin in Grace and Frankie in her senior years. Kind of nice to see them together sharing their lives and I'm sure they visit but I wish we had closeups of more photos in room.  She was a little sad but I don't think she'd change more than a few little things in her life.

 

[SnapHappy]

Quote

And now, I can allow myself to watch Alex's standup special on Prime.  I purposely held off, because it would have been so weird to see Alex as Alex and not Susie. 

I thought it was great.  I did absolutely NOT see "Susie" during her show.  

And as for the "no writers performing" rule, I just figured it was to keep the writers from working on their own material during work hours.  if you knew you'd be able to get time onstage during the show, maybe you'd be tempted to write bits that would suit YOU rather than Gordon or the guests.  Just my take. 

And I'm sure Midge had a babysitter on hand for the kids.  She worked a lot of nights, her parents were very social, Moishe & Shirley lived outside the city, Joel had the club & Zelda was no longer available.  There HAD to be a babysitter on call.  Or maybe Noah & Astrid had them.  They weren't at the show. 

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by SnapHappy

[Sailorgirl26]

3 hours ago, luvthepros said:

Yet, Gordon announced to the audience that Mrs. Maisel will be back on his show.

Yes,because, as I said, he saw audience reaction and knows what makes good TV. But as a boss, in the office, his employee was insubordinate and was fired because of it. 

I'm not going to get into a back-and-forth about the difference between what happens in front of a camera versus behind it. 

[EtheltoTillie]

8 hours ago, millennium said:

Or Forrest Gump, for that matter.

I don't buy marriage to Paul Simon.  It seems ridiculous and insulting to the character, like they traded her credibility for a punch line.

How about Sammy Davis Junior. Another punchline.  He was Jewish. Ba dum bum.  

Edited May 28, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

I must thank the gods that I never had to wear a foundation garment like the one Midge was wearing under her robe. Even my mother never wore anything like that. I remember seeing ads for those one piece torture devices in magazines at that time, but I used to be mystified, as I knew no one who wore such a thing. I don’t know who was really wearing them at that point. I think it’s something the show did for effect. Or it’s the equivalent of today’s Spanx, as the stars have to wear them to get the right line under their clothes. 

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, luvthepros said:

Correct. Those are not family photos. Is that Sinatra at the far right?

And yes, @Sarah 103, that looks like Andy Warhol in the front. 
Although this picture of the piano only shows photos of Midge with other famous celebrities, in the finale we are shown Midge stopping to fondly smile at one of her with Joel. So I’m going to assume pictures of Midge with family members sit on the piano too — but maybe they get rotated from a larger collection on dusting day, maybe once a month or with the change of seasons.

Older Midge’s opulent home reminded me of Sophie Lennon’s.

 

 

9 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

I wonder if Susie saw herself as one of the pigeons. There aren't many places for them and most people see them as unwelcome. They deserve a place in this world and Susie, in her own small way, makes a space/place for them on the windowsill of her office.

Oooh! And now I see the pigeon poop on the sleeve of the dress Midge was planning to wear on the Gordon Ford Show as symbolic of the Mob shit and gambling debts and other failings of Susie that rubbed off on Midge — that Midge just discarded to refashion herself even better. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by shapeshifter

[basil]

On 5/26/2023 at 9:54 AM, AriAu said:

EDITED TO ADD...

I listened to Amy Sherman Palladino on Marc Maron's podcast WTF and besides being an enjoyable listen, she states that she did NOT decide to end the show....that it came from on high/from Amazon studios due to the high costs of production. Hence my hunch that some day we will get a Midge/Susie reunion movie!

Of course, there will be a movie. There will also likely be a musical.

[wmdekooning]

5 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I must thank the gods that I never had to wear a foundation garment like the one Midge was wearing under her robe... I think it’s something the show did for effect…

The foundation garment IS Mrs Maisel. 

I recently saw a short interview with Rachel Brosnahan and she said the foundation garment not only gives her the Mrs Maisel shape, it’s also just confining enough to restrict her breathing, contributing to a Mrs Maisel voice…

[EtheltoTillie]

Sinatra on the far right of the photos?  Was that a yes?  Because it seemed like the younger version of Sinatra, too young for Midge.  It also looks like Steve Lawrence a bit.  It's hard to tell because it's covered up? 

[luvthepros]

13 hours ago, luvthepros said:

Correct. Those are not family photos. Is that Sinatra at the far right?

Quoting myself................I zoomed in to see that is not Sinatra. Not sure who it is though.

17 hours ago, Good Queen Jane said:

It's a minor point, but it kept bugging me. Since all of Midge's friends and family were at the taping, who was watching Ethan and Esther?

Moishe?

[luvthepros]

15 hours ago, SnarkShark said:

I didn't think the jokes in that four minutes were anywhere near the best they've had that character tell, but I did like the plot they used to set that up.  THAT was well written, even if the jokes weren't really.  And actually, I did like the predictive joke tie-ins back to what we've already seen of her adult children.

The Jeopardy ending was pretty good.  We needed to see that things worked out with those two, and this was a creative way to do it.  It's strongly implied they do this daily, or as often as possible with Midge constantly traveling.

I also liked those end credits.  It took me embarrassingly long to realize what was going on with them.  That it was establishing shots for all our characters, but then marched through the timeline of the show (but never showing Midge, or any of our characters). 

 

 

If they're using Joan Rivers as part of her template...Joan never put on weight. 

If we saw Midge even a bit older (80s) I imagine like Joan she'd look TOO skinny... kind of skeletal.  I had older female relatives who aged like that.  Super-skinny, then eventually TOO skinny.

Very true. I'm Italian so the pounds usually creep up on us.

[shapeshifter]

This recap from Glamour tells everything I wanted to know — with style: glamour.com/story/the-marvelous-mrs-maisel-series-finale-recap-details

[EtheltoTillie]

There's another bookend from episode one we all forgot:  Susie bails Midge out of jail; last episode Midge bails out Susie.

Don't credit my amazing powers of observation; I just read it in a Vulture recap comment. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[debraran]

8 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I must thank the gods that I never had to wear a foundation garment like the one Midge was wearing under her robe. Even my mother never wore anything like that. I remember seeing ads for those one piece torture devices in magazines at that time, but I used to be mystified, as I knew no one who wore such a thing. I don’t know who was really wearing them at that point. I think it’s something the show did for effect. Or it’s the equivalent of today’s Spanx, as the stars have to wear them to get the right line under their clothes. 

Rachel in an interview with cast said she did NOT want her clothes from the show (mike took ties) because she always had to wear petticoats and nylons and a corset that made it impossible to pee. She's thin but her waist was unreal....I don't blame her if that is what is took to fit in them. Well maybe just one coat. : )

[shapeshifter]

3 minutes ago, debraran said:

Well maybe just one coat. : )

Definitely a coat. Or two. Or 3.

[debraran]

58 minutes ago, luvthepros said:

Very true. I'm Italian so the pounds usually creep up on us.

Italian here...yes, cutting carbs was the only way to stay slimmer after 50. Every time I saw Midge eat a bagel I thought that's probably her only food that day. Katherine Hepburn kept slim and some other stars, some like Liz Taylor said with all my money, I don't want to deprive myself of food until I die.

Midge could put on a few pounds but her reputation was funny and cute and stylish. Her Mom stayed relatively thin in the series too.

Edited May 28, 2023 by debraran

[EtheltoTillie]

Man, I love those clothes.  They had a costume exhibit at the Museum of Broadcasting a few years ago, prepandemic.  Maybe first two seasons.  I hope they do another.  I loved getting a closeup look.

[debraran]

43 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Definitely a coat. Or two. Or 3.

I want this set. Where I'd wear it, nowhere probably but I love it.

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by debraran

[EtheltoTillie]

It's impossible to pick a favorite.  I loved the Barbie clothes of the same era.  In a way they were using those as a model. 

[debraran]

45 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

This recap from Glamour tells everything I wanted to know — with style: glamour.com/story/the-marvelous-mrs-maisel-series-finale-recap-details

Thanks for this...I'm sad to hear all the pics were famous people she met and not grandkids or family. Well we saw Joel separate from them which was special. I was going to watch again to see if I caught any.

Edited May 28, 2023 by debraran

[chaifan]

14 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Someone asked who was watching Ethan and Esther during the Gordan Ford Show. According to an interview in this article https://tvline.com/2023/05/26/mrs-maisel-season-5-finale-explained-amy-sherman-palladino-interview/ Moishe is not in the audience at the Gordon Ford show, so he could be watching Ethan and Esther. 

Moishe wasn't at the show because he was drugged up on painkillers.  Of course, that would still probably qualify him as a suitable babysitter in that household!  😁

I loved the way they got Moishe and Shirley to reconcile.  That was sweet, and the shot of them laughing on the shower floor was a great last look at them.

 

Edited May 28, 2023 by chaifan

[Gummo]

I must be an easy mark because I laughed out loud at Midge's "breakout" monologue on Gordon's show.

I found the ending heartwarming because it reminded me of something I read not long ago: how Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner got together for dinner & Jeopardy regularly before Reiner died, and how much Brooks missed those evenings.

I like to think Susie and Midge's Jeopardy-watching phone calls were based on Mel and Carl.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Gummo

[Juneau Gal]

4 minutes ago, Gummo said:

I must be an easy mark because I laughed out loud at Midge's "breakout" monologue on Gordon's show.

I found the ending heartwarming because it reminded me of something I read not long ago: how Mel Brook and Carl Reiner got together for dinner & Jeopardy regularly before Reiner died, and how much Brooks missed those evenings.

I like to think Susie and Midge's Jeopardy-watching phone calls were based on Mel and Carl.

Jerry Seinfeld did a wonderful episode of Comedians in Cars that featured Mel and Carl and showed how every night Mel went to Carl’s house, they had dinner on TV trays, watched Jeopardy, and then maybe an old western. It was extremely dear and sweet.
 

Although I thought this final episode was nicely done, it does cast a pall for me over the entire series knowing how Midge ended up. Yes, she is fantastically wealthy, famous, and still in demand, all things she wanted, so Yay! her. But what a small, shallow life to be left aging alone surrounded by photos of yourself with celebrities with no evidence of family around; to desire the momentary laughter and applause of strangers, the attention  of hired staff over that of family and friends. Thank goodness she had Susie for a Jeopardy half hour five days a week. 
 

 

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Juneau Gal said:

Although I thought this final episode was nicely done, it does cast a pall for me over the entire series knowing how Midge ended up. Yes, she is fantastically wealthy, famous, and still in demand, all things she wanted, so Yay! her. But what a small, shallow life to be left aging alone surrounded by photos of yourself with celebrities with no evidence of family around; to desire the momentary laughter and applause of strangers, the attention  of hired staff over that of family and friends. Thank goodness she had Susie for a Jeopardy half hour five days a week. 

Not everyone's idea of happiness is daily involvement with family and all of the demands on one's time that includes. 
I got the impression Midge thrived on audience response and her long-distance Jeopardy! dates with Susie, and that was enough.
Did I miss some obvious indication that Midge was not happy?

 

ETA: This post is for anyone who saw the last scenes as indicating that Midge's life is unhappy or in some other way lacking. I just quoted @Juneau Gal as being representative of many opinions here like that.

Edited May 28, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Juneau Gal]

5 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Not everyone's idea of happiness is daily involvement with family and all of the demands on one's time that includes. 
I got the impression Midge thrived on audience response and her long-distance Jeopardy! dates with Susie, and that was enough.
Did I miss some obvious indication that Midge was not happy?

I never said she was unhappy. I said it was, to me, a small, shallow life. She got what she wanted, Yay her. She was always too self-absorbed to truly need others, other than "fans". To ME that is sad.

[janie jones]

The piano with all the celebrity photos is out in a room where she entertains. I would think family photos would be in a more private area of her home. Considering her TV room, there's clearly a divide between the private areas and the areas for company.

[fishcakes]

8 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Not everyone's idea of happiness is daily involvement with family and all of the demands on one's time that includes. 

Also, I think it's a mistake to think that a person's happiness is completely within their control. There aren't a lot of people who get to live their ideal life, and maybe there aren't any.

From the Glamour article that @shapeshifter linked to above is this from Alex and Rachel:
 

Quote

 

And yet, as Borstein pointed out, “This show about these two strong women. They both get what they want, but they both are very much alone.” So would they say it was worth it? 

“I think the money Susie got brought her peace,” Borstein said. “She could take off the suspenders, the hat, the leather coat, and be in a big caftan where she could just breathe and be and take up all the space.” Added Brosnahan, “I think Midge thinks it was worth it. I asked Amy whether Joel and Midge would ever get back together back in season one, and she said they’d never be on the same page again and she’ll always look back at the day before Joel left her as the happiest day of her life. I love that both of those things live inside Midge. She’s never been as happy as she was, but she’s also led this deeply fulfilling and curious life that would otherwise not be true.”

 

That's been the arc of the show. Joel blew up Midge's life in episode 1 and we hear Abe reflect on that in the penultimate episode of the series: other people would have crumbled, but she picked herself up and found a new and different way of living. Had it been entirely up to Midge, Joel wouldn't have left her, and it might even be Joel with the successful standup career (though having seen his set ... uh, doubtful). But it wasn't up to her any more than it's up to any of us, yet in the end, she still had a good life.

[Daff]

20 hours ago, millennium said:

... then Midge should have had plastic surgery to make her look like the Joker.

Your joke was funny, but didn’t apply in that time frame. JR was not model level gorgeous, but she was attractive (and then you heard the voi🫢ce ).

[luvthepros]

19 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes, but I saw it more as a commentary (commentary isn't the right word here, but I can't come up with a better one so it's what I'm going with) on the era. The centrality/pervasiveness of Broadway show tunes at that time. Ed Sullivan frequently had the cast or part of the cast of a Broadway show do a few songs on his show. It was not unusual at all to have songs from Broadway show tunes on the Top 40/Hot 100 charts. 

That's my theory. They may not have married again, but they remained good friends and in each other's lives. 

I'm guessing it happened sometime in the 1970s or 1980s, when the Mob lost power and was no longer the force in the entertainment industry that it had been. 

I'm glad we got the full Hedy story. Once Susie mentioned that she hated the way Hedy chewed, that told you everything you needed to know. That's not something you notice about most people. It shows a close relationship, and that she really paid attention to Hedy as a person and knew her habits. Their plan to move to Egypt and rent camels to tourists while raising children they adopted is the kind of crazy fantasy you plan with someone you have a strong bond with, whether it's a romance or a best friend. 

It reminded me a bit of Goodfellas. You spend the first half of the movie being seduced into the mob lifestyle. The movie makes it look cool, but then partway through you start to realize/remember how awful and messed up it is. 

Midge on a 1970s game show would be beyond fantastic. Hollywood Squares would be perfect for her. 

This is was something I was trying to figure out, and I think you helped. If I understand it correctly, the timeline is 1. the night in the blue room, 2. the scene with them getting chinese food. 3. the next day is Lenny's performance at Carnegie Hall. (I know there was stuff that happened in between 2 and 3. I'm just thinking about the major events/the arc of Midge's story and what role Lenny plays in that).

I knew what Lenny was like later in his career, so I kind of expected it, but it was still absolutely heartbreaking and devestating to see how far he'd fallen and that he lost that spark, that magic, his very essence. The second apperance of Lenny in this episode, the actual last scene we see of him in the series, the scene in the Chinese place, that is how we want to remember Lenny and how fans of the show will remember him. 

I wonder if Susie saw herself as one of the pigeons. There aren't many places for them and most people see them as unwelcome. They deserve a place in this world and Susie, in her own small way, makes a space/place for them on the windowsill of her office. 

I think the only place Midge is truly happy is onstage. She needs applause and the love of the audience. 

@luvtheprosI think the photo on the far right is Andy Warhol. 

Overall, I enjoyed the episode and found it a satisfying series finale.

I do wish we had found out, even if it was just in a brief line or two, what her relationship with her children is like. In the roughly 20 years between the flashbacks and 2005, her relationship with them could have improved. 

Instead of a movie, I would like to propose Marvelous shorts. Short films that take place between the end of the series and present day. Things that would fill in the time between the flashbacks. Anything in Midge's life (and the lives of her family and friends) between 1961 and up to when she dies would be fair game. 

Andy Warhol? My that's a far cry from Sinatra. LOL. I zoomed in the most I could and I realized it was not Sinatra.

[luvthepros]

19 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes, but I saw it more as a commentary (commentary isn't the right word here, but I can't come up with a better one so it's what I'm going with) on the era. The centrality/pervasiveness of Broadway show tunes at that time. Ed Sullivan frequently had the cast or part of the cast of a Broadway show do a few songs on his show. It was not unusual at all to have songs from Broadway show tunes on the Top 40/Hot 100 charts. 

That's my theory. They may not have married again, but they remained good friends and in each other's lives. 

I'm guessing it happened sometime in the 1970s or 1980s, when the Mob lost power and was no longer the force in the entertainment industry that it had been. 

I'm glad we got the full Hedy story. Once Susie mentioned that she hated the way Hedy chewed, that told you everything you needed to know. That's not something you notice about most people. It shows a close relationship, and that she really paid attention to Hedy as a person and knew her habits. Their plan to move to Egypt and rent camels to tourists while raising children they adopted is the kind of crazy fantasy you plan with someone you have a strong bond with, whether it's a romance or a best friend. 

It reminded me a bit of Goodfellas. You spend the first half of the movie being seduced into the mob lifestyle. The movie makes it look cool, but then partway through you start to realize/remember how awful and messed up it is. 

Midge on a 1970s game show would be beyond fantastic. Hollywood Squares would be perfect for her. 

This is was something I was trying to figure out, and I think you helped. If I understand it correctly, the timeline is 1. the night in the blue room, 2. the scene with them getting chinese food. 3. the next day is Lenny's performance at Carnegie Hall. (I know there was stuff that happened in between 2 and 3. I'm just thinking about the major events/the arc of Midge's story and what role Lenny plays in that).

I knew what Lenny was like later in his career, so I kind of expected it, but it was still absolutely heartbreaking and devestating to see how far he'd fallen and that he lost that spark, that magic, his very essence. The second apperance of Lenny in this episode, the actual last scene we see of him in the series, the scene in the Chinese place, that is how we want to remember Lenny and how fans of the show will remember him. 

I wonder if Susie saw herself as one of the pigeons. There aren't many places for them and most people see them as unwelcome. They deserve a place in this world and Susie, in her own small way, makes a space/place for them on the windowsill of her office. 

I think the only place Midge is truly happy is onstage. She needs applause and the love of the audience. 

@luvtheprosI think the photo on the far right is Andy Warhol. 

Overall, I enjoyed the episode and found it a satisfying series finale.

I do wish we had found out, even if it was just in a brief line or two, what her relationship with her children is like. In the roughly 20 years between the flashbacks and 2005, her relationship with them could have improved. 

Instead of a movie, I would like to propose Marvelous shorts. Short films that take place between the end of the series and present day. Things that would fill in the time between the flashbacks. Anything in Midge's life (and the lives of her family and friends) between 1961 and up to when she dies would be fair game. 

The photo with Andy Warhol is not the photo I was referring to in my initial comment. The photo I was referring to is not in the first row. It is in the second row, all the way on the right and the celebrity that is in the photo with Midge has most of his face hidden by another framed photo. Can anyone identify that male celebrity?

19 hours ago, Sarah 103 said:

Yes, but I saw it more as a commentary (commentary isn't the right word here, but I can't come up with a better one so it's what I'm going with) on the era. The centrality/pervasiveness of Broadway show tunes at that time. Ed Sullivan frequently had the cast or part of the cast of a Broadway show do a few songs on his show. It was not unusual at all to have songs from Broadway show tunes on the Top 40/Hot 100 charts. 

That's my theory. They may not have married again, but they remained good friends and in each other's lives. 

I'm guessing it happened sometime in the 1970s or 1980s, when the Mob lost power and was no longer the force in the entertainment industry that it had been. 

I'm glad we got the full Hedy story. Once Susie mentioned that she hated the way Hedy chewed, that told you everything you needed to know. That's not something you notice about most people. It shows a close relationship, and that she really paid attention to Hedy as a person and knew her habits. Their plan to move to Egypt and rent camels to tourists while raising children they adopted is the kind of crazy fantasy you plan with someone you have a strong bond with, whether it's a romance or a best friend. 

It reminded me a bit of Goodfellas. You spend the first half of the movie being seduced into the mob lifestyle. The movie makes it look cool, but then partway through you start to realize/remember how awful and messed up it is. 

Midge on a 1970s game show would be beyond fantastic. Hollywood Squares would be perfect for her. 

This is was something I was trying to figure out, and I think you helped. If I understand it correctly, the timeline is 1. the night in the blue room, 2. the scene with them getting chinese food. 3. the next day is Lenny's performance at Carnegie Hall. (I know there was stuff that happened in between 2 and 3. I'm just thinking about the major events/the arc of Midge's story and what role Lenny plays in that).

I knew what Lenny was like later in his career, so I kind of expected it, but it was still absolutely heartbreaking and devestating to see how far he'd fallen and that he lost that spark, that magic, his very essence. The second apperance of Lenny in this episode, the actual last scene we see of him in the series, the scene in the Chinese place, that is how we want to remember Lenny and how fans of the show will remember him. 

I wonder if Susie saw herself as one of the pigeons. There aren't many places for them and most people see them as unwelcome. They deserve a place in this world and Susie, in her own small way, makes a space/place for them on the windowsill of her office. 

I think the only place Midge is truly happy is onstage. She needs applause and the love of the audience. 

@luvtheprosI think the photo on the far right is Andy Warhol. 

Overall, I enjoyed the episode and found it a satisfying series finale.

I do wish we had found out, even if it was just in a brief line or two, what her relationship with her children is like. In the roughly 20 years between the flashbacks and 2005, her relationship with them could have improved. 

Instead of a movie, I would like to propose Marvelous shorts. Short films that take place between the end of the series and present day. Things that would fill in the time between the flashbacks. Anything in Midge's life (and the lives of her family and friends) between 1961 and up to when she dies would be fair game. 

I really didn't give one thought to Midge's relationship with her kids. I want to know if Midge and Joel ever got together again. Why do some of you think he is dead in 2005? Did I miss something? Was it the lingering look at the wedding photo of her and Joel?
 

[luvthepros]

19 hours ago, janie jones said:

Yeah, he winked at her while he was saying it. But I also think part of it was what someone else said above -- that if Midge gets away with it, then what's going to stop the other writers from trying to pull something similar.

Doesn't some people's gray hair have a different texture from their original hair? And also, I think some people get thinner and frailer as they age. I think I'm seeing that in my mom. I don't remember her being so bony before.

I thought Midge's routine was less funny than other ones we've seen. But stuff that gets characters laughing on TV shows/movies is rarely something I actually find funny. I just accept that those people think it's funny. Like, I don't think Zachary Levi is good looking, but I accept that all the characters on the show did.

Yes, agree with you that gray hair on some people (me included) becomes wirey. But.......Susie's gray hair was just very curley. Maybe I'm nitpicking.

5 hours ago, debraran said:

Italian here...yes, cutting carbs was the only way to stay slimmer after 50. Every time I saw Midge eat a bagel I thought that's probably her only food that day. Katherine Hepburn kept slim and some other stars, some like Liz Taylor said with all my money, I don't want to deprive myself of food until I die.

Midge could put on a few pounds but her reputation was funny and cute and stylish. Her Mom stayed relatively thin in the series too.

Agree.....Marin Hinkle is certainly thinner than she was in "Three and a Half Men".

[luvthepros]

5 hours ago, chaifan said:

Moishe wasn't at the show because he was drugged up on painkillers.  Of course, that would still probably qualify him as a suitable babysitter in that household!  😁

I loved the way they got Moishe and Shirley to reconcile.  That was sweet, and the shot of them laughing on the shower floor was a great last look at them.

 

Not only were they on the shower floor, I loved that the water was flowing over them as Shirley was in her fur coat. Absolute perfection for those two to end the series that way.

4 hours ago, Gummo said:

I must be an easy mark because I laughed out loud at Midge's "breakout" monologue on Gordon's show.

I found the ending heartwarming because it reminded me of something I read not long ago: how Mel Brooks and Carl Reiner got together for dinner & Jeopardy regularly before Reiner died, and how much Brooks missed those evenings.

I like to think Susie and Midge's Jeopardy-watching phone calls were based on Mel and Carl.

Thank you for that bit of trivia.

[DrSpaceman73]

The ending made it clear Midge lives for her work.  She had a day off at 80 years old or so and was upset about it.  She doest think to do something with family or friends but instead find a gig to do.  

Eating dinner alone in her apartment. 

It's her choice and the life she wanted but it's not a life without legitimate criticism of the consequences and the outcome. 

Does she seem unhappy?  Not in the least. But that doesn't make it seem any less empty as a viewer. 

Edited May 28, 2023 by DrSpaceman73

[kwnyc]

23 hours ago, millennium said:

I don't buy marriage to Paul Simon.  It seems ridiculous and insulting to the character, like they traded her credibility for a punch line.

He also had a brief marriage to Carrie Fisher. He had a type.

[kwnyc]

On 5/27/2023 at 3:00 PM, Good Queen Jane said:

It's a minor point, but it kept bugging me. Since all of Midge's friends and family were at the taping, who was watching Ethan and Esther?

No doubt, this is why Esther ended up in therapy...

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, luvthepros said:

The photo with Andy Warhol is not the photo I was referring to in my initial comment. The photo I was referring to is not in the first row. It is in the second row, all the way on the right and the celebrity that is in the photo with Midge has most of his face hidden by another framed photo. Can anyone identify that male celebrity?

 

Is that the one people thought was Frank Sinatra?  I posted earlier that I thought it looked like Steve Lawrence.  Anyone agree or have any other ideas? 

[millennium]

On 5/26/2023 at 1:07 PM, EtheltoTillie said:

Yes, I caught the Yoko reference, but the building they showed from the outside was not actually the Dakota, it was the Ansonia.

 

Maybe it was another Yoko.

[bybrandy]

5 hours ago, kwnyc said:

He also had a brief marriage to Carrie Fisher. He had a type.

A brief marriage followed by a long term relationship after their divorce.  The women he was with seem to be women of substtance and maybe Midge got a song written about her.  I don't see how that was degrading at all.

Sammy Davis Jr (did hey say they had a relationship?  I mean he's on the piano  but was there a mention the wedding episode?  He famously had career repercussions for relationships with white women during that time period so I wouldn't find it implausible that he and midge had a fling.   But I don't remember the reference.

They did say one of her relationships was with Joel Grey (why they weren't sure who she meant when she said she was in love with Joel) which I thought was absurd because Joel Grey was married from when Midge met Suzie until the early 80s so Midge being engaged to him prior to that would be weird... also he's not straight.

Although I suppose this alt NY where Yoko Ono lives in a building that looks like but isn't the Ansonia could also be one where Joel Grey was single in the 60s/70s and Midge had a thing with him.   And here is a whole oher person who carried  watermelon in Dirty Dancing (or not... she was born before Midge got famous)   

I genuinely don't think Midge is close to family and I think she is perfectly content with the choices she made.  But she had picks of the grandkids while Joel was in jail and hung with them when Joel was arrested so there may well be picks somewhere else in her apartment.  Also, I think there have to be at least two grandchildren because Joel says he'll meet baby Rose when he's out and he had obviously met the baby who was there when he was arrested. 

We only saw the public locations.  She clearly has bedrooms and closets and what not.  Maybe in there are stacks of family photos, or not. 

And she's a famous person she is going too have a higher than average number of celebrities who are actually people she knows and might get together with for lunch some (though not all) of those photos seem more candid than staged publicity things.

But unlike Philip Roth who didn't make her laugh, Suzie is he funniest person she knows.  Her platonic soulmate.  

And I don't think Moishe was watching Esther and Ethan because Shirley said he was hyped up on pain killers (as opposed to hyped up on pain killers and watching the kids, and Abe and Miriam ask where Moishe is, theoretically they'd know if he'd come to take the kids or if somebody came to bring them the kids.

They were home with the kids when the kids were faking sick, when Miriam came home to change clothes (the firs time) then Abe left for the Village Voice and Miriam was in the house with the phone off the hook.   But I'm willing to believe that Midge pays some kid in the building to watch them when they get on her parents nerves.  I'm also willing to believe the kids bedtime is 7:30 and they were asleep when Miriam and Abe left for Midge's show (either with, or without letting the potential kid in the building Midge potentially pays to watch them know to look in on them.)

 

Edited May 29, 2023 by bybrandy

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, bybrandy said:

We only saw the public locations.  She clearly has bedrooms and closets and what not.  Maybe in there are stacks of family photos, or not. 

My mom kept all the family photos on her dresser in her bedroom, so I can easily imagine Midge doing the same.

 

 

8 hours ago, luvthepros said:

I really didn't give one thought to Midge's relationship with her kids. I want to know if Midge and Joel ever got together again. Why do some of you think he is dead in 2005? Did I miss something? Was it the lingering look at the wedding photo of her and Joel?

In an interview (or 2?) linked upthread, Amy Sherman-Palladino is quoted as saying that Joel was dead by 2005 and that he and Midge never remarried, but that Midge's time with Joel up until he cheated was the happiest time of her life.
But, no, there is absolutely nothing about that in the show. 
So if you think Midge and Joel still hang out sometimes, that's a valid interpretation.

Edited May 29, 2023 by shapeshifter

[luvthepros]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

My mom kept all the family photos on her dresser in her bedroom, so I can easily imagine Midge doing the same.

 

 

In an interview (or 2?) linked upthread, Amy Sherman-Palladino is quoted as saying that Joel was dead by 2005 and that he and Midge never remarried, but that Midge's time with Joel up until he cheated was the happiest time of her life.
But, no, there is absolutely nothing about that in the show. 
So if you think Midge and Joel still hang out sometimes, that's a valid interpretation.

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[Love2dance]

Can someone please fill me in…..How and when did Midge and Susie make up? I watched every episode, but can’t remember. TIA

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Love2dance said:

Can someone please fill me in…..How and when did Midge and Susie make up? I watched every episode, but can’t remember. TIA

It was in the episode with the Susie roast ... Midge appeared onscreen at the end and publicly credited Susie for her success, then suggested they talk soon.   The rest was left to our imaginations.

[debraran]

I can understand the producer saying Joel was special, in her life, but marrying just wasn't good timing after they divorced. What wasn't alluded to (I do realize this is a fake family, overthinking it) is Joel with the kids after he was out. He was very involved and he loved them, supported them, especially Ethan and his "happy" ways. ; )

The show is about Midge but the daughter in therapy which was an adhd mix of fast talking and complaining, didn't mention her dad, just grandpa who was also smart. I'm sure she wasn't just a mensa kid and could talk to everyone else. Ethan didn't  mention dad either in his short conversation with his mom. When did he die I wonder. He wasn't the best husband but they wrote him as a pretty involved dad for that time period. I wonder if the kids were teens, twenties.

Edited May 29, 2023 by debraran