S02.E05: NMB NMP

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Joel's big step with Brad leads to a misstep with Sam. Tricia continues to be stonewalled by Charity's lies.

Airing Sunday, May 21st, 2023.

[oldCJ]

It’s frustrating to watch a protagonist be so self-absorbed when surrounded by so many people who unconditionally love her. They foreshadowed this with the title of the first episode, no new people. 

Sam can’t be happy for anyone. Not Joel or Fred for finding romance and not the music teacher’s students at their performance. I understand she has walls up so she doesn’t get hurt but she is too old to still be lashing out when anyone else dares to have feelings, like Tricia being able to mourn Holly.

I love Joel getting the romantic storyline and not being relegated to the stereotypical role of gay bff. His first kiss with SLS was sweet. The comb joke was hilarious.

They did a great job humanizing Tricia who started the first season as one of the antagonists. I never would have predicted she would become a character I actually sympathize with. I am excited for her see you next tuesday pillow success and the ramifications of it in the community. 

[luna1122again]

Sam's her own worst enemy. It IS frustrating to see a character we like be so unreasonable and self absorbed. Her behaving like her own pain is the only thing that's important is exasperating, and acting like Joel is somehow cheating on her, instead of being remotely pleased for him..it's an ugly look. I hope she knocks it off soon. 

And once again, tho off camera, Charity is the worst. WTF is her deal, seriously? She never expressed an ounce of guilt or regret for betraying her friend, and now she's telling people that TRICIA was the guilty, home wrecking party? She really lives  up to the pillow moniker. 

 

[EdnasEdibles]

Sam is a hot mess but I also love that when you see her parents you kind of get how a hot mess like this was created. She's so angry that she wasn't told about the cancer and told about the relationship but she hasn't stopped to consider why two people who love her and are close to her would choose to not tell her something important. She's judgmental and dismissive. It's the vision board all over again. I hope she gets out of her own way.

And I agree that I am starting to just really enjoy Tricia. I thought I'd hate her in the first season but I like her. And I honestly would love more insight in the Charity friendship. Her husband just seems like a big dummy so I am not too confused as to why he cheated on Tricia. He seems like an idiot with a mid-life crisis. But Charity is the one that drives me crazy. To cheat and then never apologize and then go around telling others that Tricia is the one who cheated. Girl! I know we all have a Charity in our past to some extent - maybe not this extreme. But what the hell, Charity. Why are you the way that you are?

[peeayebee]

Hopefully that woman (name?) at the party supply store will get the word out that Charity slept with Tricia's husband.

I, too, am liking Tricia much more than in previous seasons. I was really enjoying her bday celebration with Sam and the big ol' cow pie cake. BTW, I understand that Sam doesn't know how to bake, but when the directions called for oil, and she used Pam, the bottle of oil was right there. She obviously got it out of the cupboard, so why didn't she use it?

I have more sympathy for Sam than some of you, I guess. I'm sure she will see the error of her ways. I understand her feeling so hurt learning that Holly kept her cancer secret for months, maybe a year. Holly may have done it because she wanted to handle the cancer her own way, and she knew that Sam would work hard to talk her out of treating it "naturally." And of course Sam is angry because that's just what she would have done, and maybe if she'd had had that opportunity she would have gotten Holly to get chemo or whatever. And maybe Holly would have been saved. 

And it hurts to have someone close to you keep secrets because they know how you'd react. And they're right. And that just leads to self-hate.

Of course compounded on Holly's secret is Joel's. I don't think Sam would have been quite so angry if she hadn't just learned about Holly. I think, yes, she would have been hurt, but I imagine she would have talked with Joel. It was just all too much for one day. She sees that people are keeping secrets from her because they don't want her reaction. 

It's sometimes hard to get out from under your self and love what other people have -- not envy, but welcome it and be happy for them. I'm sure Sam will get there.

Once again Joel and Brad are delightful together. Loved Brad's telling him about the comb being made out of human bones by a "pack of witches." Everything about the two of them is sweet, funny, and warm. Brad will be a perfect addition to their group.

The scene in the tailor shop was great, too. 

[cpcathy]

Kudos to Bridget, her just eating her breakfast, not even looking up was such great quiet acting. I felt that. That said, Sam was wrong and could have brushed off Joel fibbing to her.

[sistermagpie]

5 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

Sam is a hot mess but I also love that when you see her parents you kind of get how a hot mess like this was created. She's so angry that she wasn't told about the cancer and told about the relationship but she hasn't stopped to consider why two people who love her and are close to her would choose to not tell her something important. She's judgmental and dismissive. It's the vision board all over again. I hope she gets out of her own way.

 

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

And it hurts to have someone close to you keep secrets because they know how you'd react. And they're right. And that just leads to self-hate.

Of course compounded on Holly's secret is Joel's. I don't think Sam would have been quite so angry if she hadn't just learned about Holly. I think, yes, she would have been hurt, but I imagine she would have talked with Joel. It was just all too much for one day. She sees that people are keeping secrets from her because they don't want her reaction. 

 

I really love how the show's making reasonable demands on Sam now. I still love her, and I really completely emphathize with her feelings of being lied to by Holly and Joel, but at the same time I know I probably would have done the same thing. She needs to take responsibility for her own behavior too. It was great that the show gave Tricia a chance to really nail her, saying how she pushes people away. Even her music teacher is trying to so hard and she just can't accept it.

Love Tricia in this ep and how it's showing how conditional the "support" of all those acceptable people can be, as opposed to how Sam's friends are behaving, trying to show her compassion and just wanting her for who she is if she'll let them be. 

Joel's date was so delightful and I'm so happy for him!! But still, I get why he lied. 

[peeayebee]

Please explain 'Finsta' to me. Tricia mentioned it last ep and then this one. I looked it up:

Quote

Finsta is short for Finstagram, or “fake Instagram,” referring to an account made so that a user can post images and interact with other accounts in a more private way, usually reserving the account’s followers to close friends.

I may have had too much wine tonight to understand, but why is Tricia posting her stuff on Finsta? 

 

[SoMuchTV]

25 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Please explain 'Finsta' to me. Tricia mentioned it last ep and then this one. I looked it up:

I may have had too much wine tonight to understand, but why is Tricia posting her stuff on Finsta? 

Oh haha, I had the impression that the “finsta” was the version for, say, mom and dad, as opposed to the “real” version that your friends see. Maybe I had it backwards. In either case, I gathered it was on Tricia’s less public facing account. 

[heatherchandler]

5 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Of course compounded on Holly's secret is Joel's. I don't think Sam would have been quite so angry if she hadn't just learned about Holly. I think, yes, she would have been hurt,

I don’t totally understand why she’s hurt at all.  It’s not a bad secret, it was a very new interest, he wanted to see if it was something first.  Sam was kind of mean. 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

I don’t totally understand why she’s hurt at all.  It’s not a bad secret, it was a very new interest, he wanted to see if it was something first.  Sam was kind of mean. 

She doesn't really have any right to the information when she wants it, but finding out that these people were concealing things from her just hurts her anyway. Joel's totally in the right here, but he knew Sam and knew it would hurt her and felt guilty. It's hard to really explain why, but I get why for Sam this is a triggering thing. But the show seems to definitely be saying that it's her problem and not anybody else's.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

6 hours ago, peeayebee said:

BTW, I understand that Sam doesn't know how to bake, but when the directions called for oil, and she used Pam, the bottle of oil was right there. She obviously got it out of the cupboard, so why didn't she use it?

Yeah, they drew our attention to it.

She also could have easily looked up how to achieve room temperature butter fairly quickly (cut it into chunks),  but she needed Joel to hold her hand.  She doesn't make friends easily, but once she opens up to someone, she expects to be the center of their world.  That's the real reason Joel didn't want to tell her about Brad.  She is not a good sharer.

[formerlyfreedom]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I may have had too much wine tonight to understand, but why is Tricia posting her stuff on Finsta? 

People use a Finsta account to post things that they don't necessarily want people to see - for example, a lot of young people have the Instagram account for their parents/family, but then the Finsta is the one where they post for their friends. I saw it as Tricia being embarrassed to post about the pillow to on her 'public' account, but had her 'hidden' account to get things off her chest.

[IvySpice]

I'm loving the redemption of Tricia. She's showing us some wonderful spirit she shares with Sam, from directly confronting their mother in the car to embracing the "Live Laugh C***" pillow. That whole theme is such a glorious send-up of the basic-white-femininity cult that the Tricia/Charity boutique was selling in the before times. Tricia needed more Sam in her, and maybe Sam needs some Tricia (letting people be close to her) if she could admit it.

[Iseut]

That fight between Sam and Tricia was painfully real and so well-done. You could see how hurt they both were, and how easy it is to hurt someone you know so well by saying just the right things to push their buttons. Great acting from both of them, probably helped out by the fact that they also know each other so well in real life. 

I also think that fight helped to make Sam's hurt about Joel's secret more understandable. She probably wouldn't have been happy about Joel's new man and fibs about it either way, but learning about it right after she found out that Holly and Tricia, the closest people in her life before Joel, had also kept an important secret from her, just piled on and she snapped. Again, amazing acting from Bridget, really showing her pain and her work to suppress it. 

[QQQQ]

Joel's hair really bothers me. Not sure if it needs to be cut, washed, combed... but I find it distracting. I can understand wanting to make his character look awkward or less conventional, but I keep thinking he's mentally challenged.

Edited May 24, 2023 by QQQQ

[Dminches]

While I agree that Sam may be her own worst enemy, hearing that her 2 sisters hid the truth from her was a big blow to her. Even if Tricia was correct in assessing Sam’s inability to deal with bad news, I get why Sam would be so upset (even if she was upset with herself).  On top of that, she has to hear personal news from the Chef waiter regarding Joel’s new found love.  It was a lot for her to process in a short time period.

Hopefully with a little alone time she will be able to move forward and not cause more damage to her relationships.

 

[lasu]

Oh, man.  What a tough episode.

I thought the reveal between Tricia and Sam was actually going to be much worse than it actually was, because the first place my mind went was that Holly might still be alive if she hadn't tried to "beat it naturally" first.  And that if Tricia had told Sam, Sam might have been able to force her into treatment earlier.  I hope it doesn't go there.  But although I'm loathe to second guess how a dying person behaves, it's tough for me to not to feel Sam was owed the truth when she came to help her sister die.  (Owed the truth from Holly, not Sam.  Holly was in a fucked up position either way.)

And then, my goodness, I saw so, so much of myself in Sam with Joel.  I wouldn't care if my friend got a date/boyfriend, but let's say I did.  I would know intellectually I have no right to be mad that my friend met someone, and that I have to suck it up and pretend not to be upset.  But then you lied to me about it?  (And to be clear, Joel didn't just fib, he flat out lied to her face on more than one occasion.)  Oh boy, that's the ONLY thing I'm going to focus on, because you gave me something to latch onto that isn't crazy.  It just gives me an out to be angry, so I totally felt Sam.  I'm not saying it's healthy or mature - just real.

[chediavolo]

On 5/22/2023 at 3:38 AM, oldCJ said:

It’s frustrating to watch a protagonist be so self-absorbed when surrounded by so many people who unconditionally love her. They foreshadowed this with the title of the first episode, no new people. 

Sam can’t be happy for anyone. Not Joel or Fred for finding romance and not the music teacher’s students at their performance. I understand she has walls up so she doesn’t get hurt but she is too old to still be lashing out when anyone else dares to have feelings, like Tricia being able to mourn Holly.

I love Joel getting the romantic storyline and not being relegated to the stereotypical role of gay bff. His first kiss with SLS was sweet. The comb joke was hilarious.

They did a great job humanizing Tricia who started the first season as one of the antagonists. I never would have predicted she would become a character I actually sympathize with. I am excited for her see you next tuesday pillow success and the ramifications of it in the community. 

I was just going to say something like this. She’s starting to piss me off. I wish I had so many people around me who care &  love me. She should be in my position. Grow up 

On 5/23/2023 at 8:57 PM, QQQQ said:

Joel's hair really bothers me. Not sure if it needs to be cut, washed, combed... but I find it distracting. I can understand wanting to make his character look awkward or less conventional, but I keep thinking he's mentally challenged.

He looks really weird. I agree. 

[laurakaye]

On 5/22/2023 at 2:27 PM, cpcathy said:

Kudos to Bridget, her just eating her breakfast, not even looking up was such great quiet acting. I felt that. That said, Sam was wrong and could have brushed off Joel fibbing to her.

The quiet parts of this show are really well done.  The scenes of Tricia in her empty house are so good - that feeling of when the kids are gone, what are you supposed to do with yourself?  And Sam walking into her own empty house after learning about Holly - where she's simply sitting on the couch, looking around, crying and trying to take off her necklace - it seems like we're peeking in on a person doing something real and even somewhat boring but that's what being alone/lonely looks like.

I feel like Sam brushed Joel off because after finding out about Holly, she may have been wanting to talk about it with Joel at breakfast.  But then the waiter revealed that Joel had been lying to her too (handing Sam the windbreaker), so she felt doubly betrayed.  It's not pretty but I understand her reaction.  It felt genuine.  Looking forward to see how Sam comes to terms with all of this new knowledge.

Edited May 25, 2023 by laurakaye

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m late to catch up on this season, but was really enjoying it, until I was reminded of how Sam can really be unreasonable. She needs therapy.  Still a big fan though.  As far as Tricia….no.  I do  not care for her at all.  She’s always had a mean streak and to me, not much has changed. She gets in her own way.  Best of luck with the pillows though.  She is talented. 
 

 

 

[paramitch]

Oof, this was so painful because I love and care about Sam, I do, but honestly I'd kind of die for Joel, so -- I'm Team Joel all the way here.

I was angry at Sam here. She is being cruel, and selfish, and honestly, for me the worst thing someone can do is simply refuse to talk to you when there is plainly something bothering them. Doing this, or ghosting, is just a cruel power play to me. Be brave and fucking talk about it, say what you need to. Don't leave people hanging.

BUT. It did feel real to me. I am angry at Sam here, but how she reacted is 100% thin-skinned Sam. Who is so loving and generous but on her terms only -- so, quick to take a slight, and so unwilling to forgive. Yet expecting forgiveness of her own transgressions.

One thing I want to add is that I love this show's gentle heart and its inclusivity. I love that Fred being trans is a non-issue (and that when Tricia was briefly jerky about it, she quickly came around once she had spent time with him -- which is EXACTLY what would and should happen with so many people who are afraid of others who are different! 

On 5/22/2023 at 1:38 AM, oldCJ said:

It’s frustrating to watch a protagonist be so self-absorbed when surrounded by so many people who unconditionally love her. They foreshadowed this with the title of the first episode, no new people. 

Sam can’t be happy for anyone. Not Joel or Fred for finding romance and not the music teacher’s students at their performance. I understand she has walls up so she doesn’t get hurt but she is too old to still be lashing out when anyone else dares to have feelings, like Tricia being able to mourn Holly.

I love Joel getting the romantic storyline and not being relegated to the stereotypical role of gay bff. His first kiss with SLS was sweet. The comb joke was hilarious.

They did a great job humanizing Tricia who started the first season as one of the antagonists. I never would have predicted she would become a character I actually sympathize with. I am excited for her see you next tuesday pillow success and the ramifications of it in the community. 

I think with Sam it's not an unwillingness to be happy, so much as a fear of being abandoned. She sees people pairing up and she knows things will change. She's right about that. Before Brad, she was the most important person in Joel's life. That is no longer going to be the case any longer. 

Jealousy isn't pretty, and Sam is being an asshole. But I get it. I wouldn't be an asshole myself, but I would definitely feel that inner unspoken fear of how things would change. So I like it, and I like the fact that she is being presented as imperfect and insecure and scared and occasionally unlikable. Yet what a lovely surprise Tricia has been this season -- it is so nice to see her be kinder and less judgmental, to open up.

Meanwhile, Joel's first kiss is one of my favorite first kisses on any TV show or movie. It was so real and gentle and I love that he was so happy to kiss him that he gave him like 3 pecks in a row. I just love them together so much.

On 5/22/2023 at 8:50 AM, EdnasEdibles said:

Sam is a hot mess but I also love that when you see her parents you kind of get how a hot mess like this was created. She's so angry that she wasn't told about the cancer and told about the relationship but she hasn't stopped to consider why two people who love her and are close to her would choose to not tell her something important. She's judgmental and dismissive. It's the vision board all over again. I hope she gets out of her own way.

This is a very good point. I would also point out that Sam's entire life has seemed to include a lot of quiet toxicity. A sweet father  but who also enabled their mother's alcoholism and just plain meanness and doesn't seem to have done much to stop it. Tricia, who seems to have adapted by being obsessed with making sure everything (and everyone around her) was perfect. Then their sister who died, who was living in a fantasy that she could cure cancer with her mind. 

So to me it's a believable characterization -- Sam has been the fixit person. Fixing things for her gentle but ineffectual Dad. Fixing things for her awful mom. Fixing things for her sick sister who died and took a little of her heart with her. Even fixing things for Tricia, who begrudged it.

One of the things about Joel and Sam's friendship is that for the first time, it seems that Sam has this person in her life who is HER caregiver, who looks out for her. I don't think she's ever had that. So I get why she is panicking at the idea of losing it.

On 5/22/2023 at 10:55 AM, peeayebee said:

I understand that Sam doesn't know how to bake, but when the directions called for oil, and she used Pam, the bottle of oil was right there. She obviously got it out of the cupboard, so why didn't she use it?

(snipped)

And it hurts to have someone close to you keep secrets because they know how you'd react. And they're right. And that just leads to self-hate.

That drove me bonkers. I just didn't buy that Sam would not know what room-temperature butter was like (or that it would just take a few seconds in the microwave, versus a full minute). Or that she wouldn't use actual oil, when it was right in front of her.

It was a rare example of lazy writing on this show for me. Like, the scene was funny to envision so they just had her do it even though the vast majority of American adults have actually used those basic ingredients before.

On 5/22/2023 at 6:36 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

She doesn't make friends easily, but once she opens up to someone, she expects to be the center of their world.  That's the real reason Joel didn't want to tell her about Brad.  She is not a good sharer.

Yep, very well said. She's not. Look at how visibly irritated she was when Joel didn't immediately agree to go shopping with her. That selfishness was front and center. She has started to take him for granted, and that's not good for the friendship.

On 5/23/2023 at 6:57 PM, QQQQ said:

Joel's hair really bothers me. Not sure if it needs to be cut, washed, combed... but I find it distracting. I can understand wanting to make his character look awkward or less conventional, but I keep thinking he's mentally challenged.

I love it. It is exactly like the hair of someone you know in real life and go, "If they would just do ___________, they would look so much better!" etc. Joel is Joel, so I love his hair. It suits the character.

On 5/24/2023 at 6:28 AM, lasu said:

And then, my goodness, I saw so, so much of myself in Sam with Joel.  I wouldn't care if my friend got a date/boyfriend, but let's say I did.  I would know intellectually I have no right to be mad that my friend met someone, and that I have to suck it up and pretend not to be upset.  But then you lied to me about it?  (And to be clear, Joel didn't just fib, he flat out lied to her face on more than one occasion.)  Oh boy, that's the ONLY thing I'm going to focus on, because you gave me something to latch onto that isn't crazy.  It just gives me an out to be angry, so I totally felt Sam.  I'm not saying it's healthy or mature - just real.

Yeah, this is very well put. Although I have to admit, I wouldn't mind someone lying to me on this kind of thing because it's just part of life, the little white lies and "fudging the truth" to avoid hurting feelings, etc. In my experience, nobody is 100% honest 100% of the time. People lie all the time. Most of the time, to avoid hurting feelings, etc.

So, to me, Joel's right to his own privacy, to not share every single thing with Sam, makes his lies here very small, and very understandable.

On 5/25/2023 at 6:03 AM, laurakaye said:

The quiet parts of this show are really well done.  The scenes of Tricia in her empty house are so good - that feeling of when the kids are gone, what are you supposed to do with yourself?  And Sam walking into her own empty house after learning about Holly - where she's simply sitting on the couch, looking around, crying and trying to take off her necklace - it seems like we're peeking in on a person doing something real and even somewhat boring but that's what being alone/lonely looks like.

That's my favorite thing about this show, those moments when we are simply watching people live their lives, taking a breath in a space that feels real.

Edited June 18, 2023 by paramitch

[sistermagpie]

3 hours ago, paramitch said:

So, to me, Joel's right to his own privacy, to not share every single thing with Sam, makes his lies here very small, and very understandable.

On 5/25/2023 at 9:03 AM, laurakaye said:

This is something I think is so well done about the story, becauase on the one hand absoluely Joel has the right to privacy, but because Sam is Sam, he had to go just a tiny step further, imo, to put her in a position where she felt, as she said, stupid. Where she saw him not keeping it a secret, really, since he was out and about (just as Holly's diagnosis was known) but he was hiding it from her and she was believing it.

But at the same time, when I step into Joel's shoes, the alternative seems worse. And the show gets that because when they do talk it out, Joel apologizes for keeping it a secre, but Sam's the one who has to look at herself and change to be better. Because this situation didn't reveal a problem with Joel, but with Sam.