Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[SoMuchTV]

12 minutes ago, supposebly said:

Assigning English prepositions consistent meaning is almost impossible. I mean: I'm on time in 5 minutes for days and we will be friends in no time at 10am, on Monday in March.

Things are on the house, by the by, to my surprise, from memory. 😉

When used for space, they seem more consistent. Going to the house, up the stairs, sitting on the stairs under the roof.

I'd say that's because of the meaning of purpose and accident?

I think that just confirms my hunch that none of this makes sense but I know that what I say sounds right!

[EtheltoTillie]

I don’t hear people using on accident, whether young or old. I didn’t watch Angel.  So it’s a new one to me.  If I did hear it I would be surprised. I did know twinning, though. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[Browncoat]

Along those lines, when did people start applying "to" a job instead of "for" a job?  I always have applied to a company for a job.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Along those lines, when did people start applying "to" a job instead of "for" a job?  I always have applied to a company for a job.

I did a few side gigs proofreading PhD dissertations, including for someone publishing in English but whose first language was Spanish. She had a sprinkling of prepositions that gave one meaning, but, in context, she might have intended another. About half the time they needed changing, but I always checked with her, even though I'm pretty sure it wouldn't have mattered in the end.

Whenever I see a weird (to me) word usage, I always wonder if it is part of the melting pot of American English.

Just quick googling —

• English has about 150 prepositions
• Spanish has 23 "common" prepositions
• French has 33

Edited November 23, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Ancaster]

On 11/21/2023 at 10:32 AM, shapeshifter said:

`•.,¸¸,.•´¯𝐀 𝐫𝐞𝐚𝐥 𝐠𝐫𝐚𝐦𝐦𝐚𝐫 𝐪𝐮𝐞𝐬𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧¯`•.,¸¸,.•´

Background:
My daughter's sister-in-law, who has a Master's degree but grew up in a home without books and frequently speaks and writes with colloquial grammar errors posted a picture of her little son and his playmate at daycare, sitting together wearing identical lime-green, Grinch-patterned outfits.

She captioned the picture:

• When you twin with your buddy at daycare on accident

The use of "𝐨𝐧 accident" makes me squirm, but is it acceptable as a colloquialism?

Or is it wrong?

Or is "on accident" not any better than "by accident"?

Wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong.

On point, is missing an unacceptable (grammatically speaking) error when posting on this thread:

1. Funny?
2. Forgivable?
3. Unacceptable?
4. Appalling?

Edited November 28, 2023 by Ancaster

[Ancaster]

I have decided that in these dark days my friends and I need something to look forward to, so I am planning a trivia night.  Grammar will no doubt feature strongly, which will make my friends groan but also, hopefully, laugh.  Sadly, there will be no other grammar nerds in attendance.  (It would have been fun making up a whole separate list of questions and rules just for them.)   

Of course, me being me, I immediately started making lists, because lists matter too.  I'm Brit born, living in the Pacific North West.

Potential rounds include "Americanisms that irritate Ancaster,"  "Grammatical mistakes that irritate Ancaster,"  "Linguistic differences between Ancaster and most of you" (there'll be another Brit there, sadly a grammar Troglodyte). 

You get the picture. 

Anyway, I'm sure if you've got this far you're anticipating a request for suggestions for other categories and questions, and you would be right. So have at it, ladies and gentlemen!  Thanks!

Edited November 28, 2023 by Ancaster
Gentlemen not man! Funny typo, possibly?

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, Ancaster said:

Potential rounds include "Americanisms that irritate Ancaster," 

Ooh, don't get me started. My sister moved to Canada in 1970, and our relationship was fraught before that.

Definitely not a grammar issue, but, for example, what do you call the strip of grass between a sidewalk and the curb of the road?

[Ancaster]

16 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Ooh, don't get me started. My sister moved to Canada in 1970, and our relationship was fraught before that.

Definitely not a grammar issue, but, for example, what do you call the strip of grass between a sidewalk and the curb of the road?

Oh please, I'm so glad I got you started!

As for the strip of grass, I didn't even know it had a name, and I can't wait to hear what hideous misnomer fills you with such ire!

Edited November 28, 2023 by Ancaster

[shapeshifter]

16 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

Oh please, I'm so glad I got you started!

As for the strip of grass, I didn't even know it had a name, and I can't wait to hear what hideous misnomer fills you with such ire!

Somewhere there's a list of all the terms, but I can't find them.

Anyway, I always used "right of way" for the strip of grass (or weeds or dirt) between the sidewalk and the street, meaning (at least to me) that the city or county or state had rights to that strip of land, even though it was included in the owner's parcel. 
But my Canadian sister insists it's "boulevard," which to me means a broad road or street, perhaps with a green strip separating the lanes of traffic going in different directions.

But then I was talking to a dear friend who used a different word (can't recall what it was), and she had heard "boulevard" used that way, so I got over myself — for the time being.🙃

[EtheltoTillie]

Berm?   

Not the true definition of berm but it is used that way.  I've always heard it called a berm.

A quick Google search also yields PROW (public right of way).

[chitowngirl]

I’ve always known the berm to be the space on the road between the right edge of the lane and the edge of the road. Sometimes there’s no room at all, sometimes there’s room for a bike, and sometimes it’s very wide with room for the slow moving Amish buggies we have here.

[Ancaster]

Wow!  I'd never given a moment's thought to this odd piece of property before now. Just think of all the wondrous opportunities for grouches and scowls and curled lips and snarls that have been missed!

[shapeshifter]

50 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Berm?   

Not the true definition of berm but it is used that way.  I've always heard it called a berm.

A quick Google search also yields PROW (public right of way).

18 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

I’ve always known the berm to be the space on the road between the right edge of the lane and the edge of the road. Sometimes there’s no room at all, sometimes there’s room for a bike, and sometimes it’s very wide with room for the slow moving Amish buggies we have here.

Thanks. In a northern Chicago suburb, berms were man-made hills between a high-end subdivision and a busy road.🤷🏻‍♀️

I just found "easement," another term I couldn't recall.

From Reddit's thread, "ELI5 [Explain it Like I'm 5]: What are the defining differences between streets, roads, avenues, boulevards, etc.? What dictates how it is designated?" which goes off on a bunch of related naming tangents:

Quote

…
Boulevard is a French loan of the Dutch word Bolwerk which means stronghold. Why it has its current meaning in French and English I do not know, but this is its background
…
In France, a boulevard was the flat summit of a defensive wall (rampart). Most "new" boulevards replaced old city walls, that's why boulevards encircle a city center, in contrast to avenues that radiate from the center.…

 

Ooo! Here may be the definitive discussion I was seeking: "What is the local term used for the strip of grass between the sidewalk and the street?"(reddit.com/r/grandrapids/comments/hosysj/what_is_the_local_term_used_for_the_strip_of).

So, here's a list from that thread, with the number of question marks denoting my skepticism about the term being used beyond a very local area:

• parkway
• terrace (??)
• right-of-way
• boulevard
• easement
• road verge (?)
• tree lawn (??)
• city strip (??)
• median (?)
• outlawn (??)

And here's "The 8 Best Regional Terms for the Strip Between the Road and Sidewalk, Ranked" from Apartmenttherapy.com with even more in the comments section:

Quote

8. Furniture Zone

Apparently, some civil engineers refer to the road verge as a “furniture zone” because it’s the location where different components of utilities are installed (think of street furniture like street lamps and electric boxes). For me, this sounds more like a discount furniture store where for $400 you can snag a brand new loveseat that someone just didn’t want with their set.

7. Sidewalk Buffer

This seems made up, point blank. Can you picture the nation’s first urban planners sitting around an ornate office, probably with cigars aflame, saying, “Hey, what if we popped a little space between the street and sidewalk, like a little, ya know, buffer? Can’t have m’lady’s skirt getting splashed by a horse!” 

6. Neutral Ground

It’s no secret that I love New Orleans, and the story behind its Neutral Ground street medians is a rich piece of American history. I imagine that folks within the region just started applying that phrase to other stretches of public space that resembled these specific medians. Hey, when I’m in NOLA, I’ll do as the New Orleanians do! 

5. Yard Sample

Technically a silly phrase, but ultimately, kind of a good idea? Can you get samples of yards like you do for tile or carpet or paint? I’d love to test out a yard with a fire pit or one with a pool! Anything’s better than the “yard sample” I’ve got outside my Chicago condo right now — piled high with snow and dotted with abandoned dog poop. New sample, please!

4. Government Grass

Technically, throughout most of the United States, the road verge is public land — as in “owned by Uncle Sam.” This term conjures within me the stubborn desire to complain. “No, I’m not wasting my time mowing the lawn over on the GOVERNMENT GRASS!” Or, “Hmm, the government has time to audit me but not to tend to THE GOVERNMENT GRASS?” Or “Officer, do you mean to tell me I can’t annex this land as an extension of my own lawn because it’s the GOVERNMENT’S GRASS?” Uncle Sam, come get your lawn, my dude!

3. Nature Strip

This sounds like the name of the next big waxing craze for your downtown. My imagination is running wild. Next!

2. Besidewalk

Hilarious, perfect, stunning, iconic. I live and die for the portmanteau. This is exactly what the area beside the sidewalk is: the besidewalk. And if it weren’t for my number one term, this would be the name I adopt for my use of road verge. But alas, I bring you to the number one best term…

1. Devil Strip

This term echoes back to Government Grass, but is far more sinister, spooky, and satisfying. I can’t wait to be a terrifying old lady yelling at kids to stay off my lawn, but adding, “AND the devil strip!” This will secure my position as the most frightening neighbor in my community, which is all I want in this world.  

I've never heard of Besidewalk before, but it's kind of charming. If my sister and I agreed to pick a different term than either of the ones we each insisted was correct, Besidewalk would get my vote.

Okay. I need to stop now.

Maybe someone can boil this down to a simple list.

Edited November 28, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Ancaster]

31 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

 

Okay. I need to stop now.

Maybe someone can boil this down to a simple list.

There is no simple list.  Property law is hell because of definitions like these.  If you ever want to bring a bullying property lawyer to their knees, just whisper "easement, my pretty".

 

[Quof]

7 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

If you ever want to bring a bullying property lawyer to their knees, just whisper "easement, my pretty"

Rule against perpetuities.  Check and mate.

[EtheltoTillie]

Still don't really understand rule against perpetuities.  Gah.  This is why I stay away from drawing up wills and trusts. 

[Quof]

The Highlander was playing in the student lounge during my first year law school exams and caused the first years a little panic. I swear it was deliberate.

[shapeshifter]

Didn't there used to be a thread titled something like "What I thought they said?"
I was sure an email subject from a news feed said "Santa approves hundreds of military promotions…" not "Senate approves."
🎅🏻🎅🏾🎄

[EtheltoTillie]

10 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Didn't there used to be a thread titled something like "What I thought they said?"
I was sure an email subject from a news feed said "Santa approves hundreds of military promotions…" not "Senate approves."
🎅🏻🎅🏾🎄

I don't recall ever seeing such a thread, but it sounds like a Roseanne Roseannadanna routine.  (from SNL)

[chitowngirl]

11 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I don't recall ever seeing such a thread, but it sounds like a Roseanne Roseannadanna routine.  (from SNL)

Or Emily Litella. “oh…that’s very different. Never mind!” 🤣

scurries off to go down a classic SNL rabbit hole 

Edited December 6, 2023 by chitowngirl

[EtheltoTillie]

6 minutes ago, chitowngirl said:

Or Emily Litella. “oh…that’s very different. Never mind!” 🤣

scurries off to go down a classic SNL rabbit hole 

Oh, you are right.  I meant Emily Litella!  Both classic Gilda Radner characters.

Edited December 6, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[Bastet]

16 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Didn't there used to be a thread titled something like "What I thought they said?"

The only one I can think of like that is the "Say What?" thread in Commercials (which is for any commercial that makes someone scratch their head in confusion, whether that's because they misheard something or, more commonly, they heard and saw it accurately but can't find any damn sense in it).

[supposebly]

19 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Didn't there used to be a thread titled something like "What I thought they said?"
I was sure an email subject from a news feed said "Santa approves hundreds of military promotions…" not "Senate approves."
🎅🏻🎅🏾🎄

I'm pretty sure that was on TWOP.

[stewedsquash]

Is this what you are looking for @shapeshifter ?

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, stewedsquash said:

Is this what you are looking for @shapeshifter ?

Yes! Thank you!

[stewedsquash]

The above thread and the Scratch Your Head thread are in the same EverythingElseTV forum. One is for not understanding the commercial and the other is for hearing something different than what was said, in commercials and anything else (shows and songs for example).

Edited December 6, 2023 by stewedsquash
same is not spelled fame

[Ancaster]

People who don't use anymore properly anymore.

[Milburn Stone]

7 hours ago, Ancaster said:

People who don't use anymore properly anymore.

I know I've lately heard it used improperly but I can't call to mind the contexts. 

My understanding of its proper use is that "anymore," as one word, is time-related, referring to a thing that happened routinely but doesn't happen now. When the meaning is not "when"-related but "how-much"-related, the adverb needs to be split into two words, "any more." (E.g. "I don't go to that restaurant any more than you do." "I don't go to that restaurant anymore." Both are correct in their respective contexts.)

[Ancaster]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I know I've lately heard it used improperly but I can't call to mind the contexts. 

My understanding of its proper use is that "anymore," as one word, is time-related, referring to a thing that happened routinely but doesn't happen now. When the meaning is not "when"-related but "how-much"-related, the adverb needs to be split into two words, "any more." (E.g. "I don't go to that restaurant any more than you do." "I don't go to that restaurant anymore." Both are correct in their respective contexts.)

Yes, I couldn't think of an example or I would have given one.

I'll keep my ears open (?).

[annzeepark914]

On 10/2/2023 at 9:32 AM, JTMacc99 said:

My knowledge of Southern California highways, and the way to refer to them, comes entirely from the SNL "The Californians" skits.  

My knowledge of Southern California highways comes entirely from the Johnny Carson routine, when he'd hold up a wild looking "map" and give rapid directions about taking the Santa Monica Freeway (& then listing all the other adjacent highways, smacking the crazy map with a pointer).

[annzeepark914]

On 11/9/2023 at 7:46 AM, chitowngirl said:

Can I peeve about a pronunciation? It’s inSURance, not INsurance. The emphasis is on the second syllable.

Good thing you don't live in NC where emphasis is on the first syllable in a lot of words (e.g., po-lice, Ju-ly, ho-tel, mo-tel, etc).  After living there for 20 years, I had to train myself to emphasize the second syllabel when we moved back to a more northern area.

[Milburn Stone]

19 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Good thing you don't live in NC where emphasis is on the first syllable in a lot of words (e.g., po-lice, Ju-ly, ho-tel, mo-tel, etc).

The po-lice one is also part of the classic Baltimore accent.

Looking back on my years growing up there, I notice that the accent was to be found in every neighborhood, but not shared by everybody in those neighborhoods. And I couldn't tell you what the factor was that made some people have it and others not. (I've been running the factors through my mind and not one is 100% predictive. Years of education? Kind of but not totally predictive. Economic status? Same. I think maybe the strongest factor is "both parents born and raised in Baltimore and never left.")

[annzeepark914]

Well, as a native New Yorker (mid-Hudson Valley), I really shouldn't say anything about anyone's pronunciation of words. I'm not sure about upstate, but where I'm from & then down to the city, we can't seem to pronounce the word, water.  Never realized this until while living in Raleigh, someone said, "I know you're from NY".  How? "By the way you say water".  It's true.  We say, wawder. And corder (for quarter). When my parents were newlyweds and moved to my hometown, they couldn't get over the peculiar words/pronunciations/expressions the natives used (e.g., storeboughten, gooms, thee-ater, etc).  

Using twin as a verb is just an extension of creating verbs & expressions out of anything (e.g., take a meeting).  Anything goes.

[EtheltoTillie]

4 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Well, as a native New Yorker (mid-Hudson Valley), I really shouldn't say anything about anyone's pronunciation of words. I'm not sure about upstate, but where I'm from & then down to the city, we can't seem to pronounce the word, water.  Never realized this until while living in Raleigh, someone said, "I know you're from NY".  How? "By the way you say water".  It's true.  We say, wawder. And corder (for quarter). When my parents were newlyweds and moved to my hometown, they couldn't get over the peculiar words/pronunciations/expressions the natives used (e.g., storeboughten, gooms, thee-ater, etc).  

Using twin as a verb is just an extension of creating verbs & expressions out of anything (e.g., take a meeting).  Anything goes.

Gooms?  I can't possibly guess what that is!  Please fill us in.

[annzeepark914]

9 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Gooms?  I can't possibly guess what that is!  Please fill us in.

Heh heh...gums (e.g., "I had to go to the dentist cause my gooms were hurting").  I was trying to remember some of the other strange/funny words they used but can't as I've been gone from there since 1976. A lot of unusual expressions came about thanks to immigrants from eastern Europe, back in the day. "Two-toidy toid street" was funny but then, years later I learned that English is the only language that pronounces th as theh (well, you know what I mean 😁). So it made sense. And remember the song, "Throw Momma From The Train (a kiss, a kiss)"?  I'm sure that came about from the different way other languages are structured (instead of throw a kiss to Mama from the train, or somethin' like that). 

[shapeshifter]

On 12/17/2023 at 1:36 AM, Ancaster said:

People who don't use anymore properly anymore.

Anacaster, were you making a distinction between "any more" and "anymore," or is "anymore" just the version you're more familiar with? 
Or, if you were reared typing in MS Word'with the Grammar app:
"with which you are more familiar?"

On 12/17/2023 at 9:32 AM, Milburn Stone said:

I know I've lately heard it used improperly but I can't call to mind the contexts. 

My understanding of its proper use is that "anymore," as one word, is time-related, referring to a thing that happened routinely but doesn't happen now. When the meaning is not "when"-related but "how-much"-related, the adverb needs to be split into two words, "any more." (E.g. "I don't go to that restaurant any more than you do." "I don't go to that restaurant anymore." Both are correct in their respective contexts.)

From the OED
— 2 of the 7 examples show the one-word version of "anymore":

Quote

1.b. 1859–

In affirmative contexts: now; at the present time; from now on. Chiefly Irish English and North American regional.

…
1971
We'll squeeze Michael a bit. He'll chip in anymore.
T. Murphy, Whistle in Dark ii. 47
…
2014
Appliances..have gotten so expensive anymore that many seniors and others on a fixed income can no longer afford what you and I would consider necessities in the kitchen.
Telegraph Herald (Dubuque, Iowa) (Nexis) 31 December a1

________________________

“Any More, Adv., Sense 1.b.” Oxford English Dictionary, Oxford UP, September 2023, https://doi.org/10.1093/OED/9485962094.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Ancaster]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Anacaster, were you making a distinction between "any more" and "anymore," or is "anymore" just the version you're more familiar with? 
Or, if you were reared typing in MS Word'with the Grammar app:
"with which you are more familiar?"

From the OED
— 2 of the 7 examples show the one-word version of "anymore":

 

 

I mean the misuse of the word "anymore".  Here's a made up example off the top of my head: "I wish they did it like that anymore."

ie: "anymore" instead of "still."

[Milburn Stone]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

From the OED
— 2 of the 7 examples show the one-word version of "anymore"...

All is lost!

[Ancaster]

On 12/19/2023 at 3:30 PM, shapeshifter said:

Anacaster, were you making a distinction between "any more" and "anymore," or is "anymore" just the version you're more familiar with? 
Or, if you were reared typing in MS Word'with the Grammar app:
"with which you are more familiar?"

From the OED
— 2 of the 7 examples show the one-word version of "anymore":

 

 

No.  No.  No. Just no.  My life is no longer worth living.

The mind blown emoji isn't even enough.

No.

Just no.

Edited December 23, 2023 by Ancaster
Added another just no. Because, just no.

[AstridM]

The bane of my existence is the constant misuse of “fewer” vs “less.” It’s not difficult!!

[Browncoat]

I just saw an ad for a local Mazda dealer, and the announcer said that whatever model was the epitome of luxury.  Except he pronounced it ep. it. tome.  Tome, like a large book.

Almost as bad as the local travel person pronouncing Mackinac Island as it is written.  Apparently someone alerted him to the mispronunciation -- later ads I've seen have him pronouncing it "Mackinaw" like it should be.

[SoMuchTV]

1 hour ago, Browncoat said:

I just saw an ad for a local Mazda dealer, and the announcer said that whatever model was the epitome of luxury.  Except he pronounced it ep. it. tome.  Tome, like a large book.

I won’t say how long I thought that was how it was pronounced. Because tomes are books, and books hold the ultimate answer, right? I will say that nobody has hired me as a tv spokesperson, though. 
 

[Browncoat]

13 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I won’t say how long I thought that was how it was pronounced. Because tomes are books, and books hold the ultimate answer, right? I will say that nobody has hired me as a tv spokesperson, though. 
 

I totally get not knowing how to pronounce something you've only seen written and have never heard, but you'd think someone, somewhere along the way of getting an ad on air would have caught that.  

[JTMacc99]

On 12/19/2023 at 11:49 AM, annzeepark914 said:

"By the way you say water".  It's true.  We say, wawder.

My daughter has run into this exact conversation. She is aware she leans towards wawder but hasn't been able to completely go to neutral water.

We had this conversation the other day because there is commercial for a dog food that airs multiple times a day on the Sirius radio station I have on as background noise. The food was developed by Dr. Marty Goldstein who then comes on the air to tell us, "I'm so confident your dawg..." 

Dog is the word that gives me away as somebody from the NYC area. I pretty much have it cleaned up, but Dr, Marty is killing me. It's getting to the point where I'm just going to say dawg and the heck with it. (Kind of like the way I say macamadamia nut because that's the way Homer Simpson pronounced it, and I like his way better than the real one.)

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, JTMacc99 said:

Dog is the word that gives me away as somebody from the NYC area.

“Drawer” as in, put your socks in the dresser drawer, was always my give away. I have worked on it and no longer say, “draw”.

[partofme]

6 hours ago, JTMacc99 said:

Dog is the word that gives me away as somebody from the NYC area. 

When I was in college I was told it was the way I said “bought”.  No idea how I say it. 

5 hours ago, ginger90 said:

“Drawer” as in, put your socks in the dresser drawer, was always my give away. I have worked on it and no longer say, “draw”.

I do this too, I always catch myself saying draw.   Don’t know why.  

[Ancaster]

On 12/23/2023 at 5:30 PM, AstridM said:

The bane of my existence is the constant misuse of “fewer” vs “less.” It’s not difficult!!

I gave up on that one decades ago.  It's not difficult, you're right, but I think people don't know there's a difference (or even in some cases that the word "fewer" exists and serves a purpose in its own quiet little way).  I just inwardly roll my eyes, correct them silently, and metaphorically pat myself on the back for being so unutterably and insufferably superior.

[BlackberryJam]

On 12/23/2023 at 8:30 PM, AstridM said:

The bane of my existence is the constant misuse of “fewer” vs “less.” It’s not difficult!!

Hello Stannis Baratheon. 

[Milburn Stone]

21 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I just inwardly roll my eyes, correct them silently, and metaphorically pat myself on the back for being so unutterably and insufferably superior.

If this thread had a clubhouse, that would be on the wall.

[AstridM]

22 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I gave up on that one decades ago.  It's not difficult, you're right, but I think people don't know there's a difference (or even in some cases that the word "fewer" exists and serves a purpose in its own quiet little way).  I just inwardly roll my eyes, correct them silently, and metaphorically pat myself on the back for being so unutterably and insufferably superior.

I’m not ready to accept this! 😆