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Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

candall

By candall
in Everything Else

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Ancaster

Ancaster

(edited)
3 hours ago, nokat said:

Americans will hit that hard T, so yes briTTany. BriT--Tany. Okay, so some regions have accents. There is a region of the US that is considered to be without an accent, so news people are encouraged to speak with this non-accent.

I find that Americans rarely pronounce the "hard T".  I hear them pronounce little as liddle, pitiful as piddiful, literally as lidderally, beautiful as beaudiful*, etc.  For years when asked if I wanted anything to drink at a restaurant, my husband would pipe up on my behalf because I pronounced an actual T but not the R in water (wadderr anyone?).

*  Or in my mother-in-law's case, beeyoodiful, but she was from The Bronx 😆

 

Edited by Ancaster
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Browncoat
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I just had a contractor reschedule an appointment for the second time.  They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause.  🤣🤣

nokat
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I thought this belonged here. We need the occasional laugh.  

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nokat

nokat

7 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I find that Americans rarely pronounce the "hard T".  I hear them pronounce little as liddle, pitiful as piddiful, literally as lidderally, beautiful as beaudiful*, etc.  For years when asked if I wanted anything to drink at a restaurant, my husband would pipe up on my behalf because I pronounced an actual T but not the R in water (wadderr anyone?).

*  Or in my mother-in-law's case, beeyoodiful, but she was from The Bronx 😆

 

You make a good point about some words. I listened to myself say "little," and it is "liddle." I do hit the t on water.  A friend of mine says wahdah. My mother-in-law is from Pennsylvania but does not have a strong accent. It comes out occasionally but she likes to appear posh.

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Lugal

Lugal

On 1/31/2025 at 5:39 PM, SoMuchTV said:


I’ve just listened to two (different, unrelated) podcasts in a row where the main speaker put extreme emphasis on the “t” sound. Like I would expect to hear if someone asked “did you say tidal” - “no, TiTle”. 

Except every word with a “t” sound emphasized it like that. I know it’s technically correct and I don’t know why it annoyed me so much, but here we are. 

The overemphasized /t/ sounds like hyper-correction. There is one podcaster I follow who tends to do it as well.

But because I am probably too fascinated by phonology, I love getting into the weeds here.  T is one of the most variable sounds in English.  A lot of American dialects shift it from an alveolar stop /t/ to an alveolar tap /ɾ/ (think of it like saying an R super quick without moving your lips).  According to Wikipedia, the tap can often be an allophone of T,D, or R in English.

Like the woman in the video said, Brits tends to shift the alveolar stop /t/ to a glottal stop /ʔ/ in intervocalic and final positions, or after a nasal /m/,/n/, /ŋ/ or lateral consonant /l/.  I've heard some Americans do the same but generally we turn it into a tap.  And not in intervocalic positions (We just turn it into a voiced alveolar stop /d/)

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Browncoat

Browncoat

1 minute ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Since July 2023, anyway.

https://forums.primetimer.com/topic/138354-why-grammar-matters-a-place-to-discuss-matters-of-grammar/page/69/#comment-8077987

And people are STILL doing it.

I thought I'd posted about it before!  I didn't remember if it was here or in the Peeves thread.

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annzeepark914

annzeepark914

On 2/1/2025 at 9:46 PM, Ancaster said:

I find that Americans rarely pronounce the "hard T".  I hear them pronounce little as liddle, pitiful as piddiful, literally as lidderally, beautiful as beaudiful*, etc.  For years when asked if I wanted anything to drink at a restaurant, my husband would pipe up on my behalf because I pronounced an actual T but not the R in water (wadderr anyone?).

*  Or in my mother-in-law's case, beeyoodiful, but she was from The Bronx 😆

 

A lot of native New Yorkers pronounce water as: wawder. My mom took elocution lessons in her NYC high school, back in the '30s. It drove her nuts to hear her daughters saying wawder, corder (quarter). 

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SoMuchTV

SoMuchTV

16 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

It drove her nuts to hear her daughters saying wawder

I’m from nowhere near New York. If anything, I probably have a bit of a “hillbilly” accent. But if I had to spell out how I say water, it would probably be pretty close to wawder. It definitely wouldn’t be WATTer. 

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annzeepark914

annzeepark914

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I’m from nowhere near New York. If anything, I probably have a bit of a “hillbilly” accent. But if I had to spell out how I say water, it would probably be pretty close to wawder. It definitely wouldn’t be WATTer. 

I believe Jacqueline Kennedy had a quiet New Yawk accent. Bet she said wawder!!

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SoMuchTV

SoMuchTV

2 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I’m from nowhere near New York. If anything, I probably have a bit of a “hillbilly” accent. But if I had to spell out how I say water, it would probably be pretty close to wawder. It definitely wouldn’t be WATTer. 

 

7 minutes ago, Zella said:

Didn't Jackie have a mid-Atlantic accent? It's very much a product of her social class and private school background. 

Full disclosure here, I hear no difference between wawder, wahder, and wotter. And water. All I know is it’s funny when someone with a Philly accent says wooder. 

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Zella

Zella

3 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

 

Full disclosure here, I hear no difference between wawder, wahder, and wotter. And water. All I know is it’s funny when someone with a Philly accent says wooder. 

Yeah I always enjoy these conversations on here because they cause me to say the words over and over again to try to peg my own pronunciation. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 

According to an online test I took years ago that seemed to accurately pinpoint a lot of people's origins, I have a broadly Southern accent that they couldn't hammer down very specifically. And I can tell I say a d in water too but I'm not sure how I'd describe the way I say the a. 

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SoMuchTV

SoMuchTV

4 minutes ago, Zella said:

Yeah I always enjoy these conversations on here because they cause me to say the words over and over again to try to peg my own pronunciation. 🤣🤣🤣🤣 

According to an online test I took years ago that seemed to accurately pinpoint a lot of people's origins, I have a broadly Southern accent that they couldn't hammer down very specifically. And I can tell I say a d in water too but I'm not sure how I'd describe the way I say the a. 

Yeah, maybe like the one thread here where it’s okay to discuss political feelings, they should make one where people can discuss whether things do or don’t sound alike, like Mary/marry/merry, or Don/Dawn, or cot/caught, or Aaron/Erin. Oh wait, that would probably be too divisive. 

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Lugal

Lugal

 

17 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Full disclosure here, I hear no difference between wawder, wahder, and wotter. And water. All I know is it’s funny when someone with a Philly accent says wooder. 

Growing up in Southeastern PA (but not in Philly) I heard water /wɐtɚ/ (with the a in bra) and water /wʌtɚ/ (with the oo in wood) almost interchangeably.

annzeepark914

annzeepark914

On 2/6/2025 at 11:29 PM, Zella said:

Didn't Jackie have a mid-Atlantic accent? It's very much a product of her social class and private school background. 

NY is a Mid-Atlantic state. I think her early years were in NYC. When her mother remarried, they lived in McLean, VA. I just remember being surprised (while watching a documentary) to hear her saying words like "tawk"...but she said them in her soft voice so it wasn't all that noticable. 

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SoMuchTV

SoMuchTV

15 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

NY is a Mid-Atlantic state. I think her early years were in NYC. When her mother remarried, they lived in McLean, VA. I just remember being surprised (while watching a documentary) to hear her saying words like "tawk"...but she said them in her soft voice so it wasn't all that noticable. 

I thing @Zellawas referring to this:

Quote

The Mid-Atlantic accent, also known as the Transatlantic accent, is a dialect that combines American and British elements. It was a popular accent among actors in the 1930s and was also taught at some elite American schools

That's from Google AI so take that for what it's worth, but that seems to match what I remember about it.  Transatlantic is probably a better name - less confusing with the Mid-Atlantic region of the US.

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
3 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Transatlantic is probably a better name - less confusing with the Mid-Atlantic region of the US.

Yes that's what I meant! LOL Though that's a fair point @annzeepark914 about New York being a mid-Atlantic state. 

As someone born in 1989, I think the first time I heard Jackie talk--though I certainly knew who she was--is the Mad Men episode where the characters are watching archival footage of her TV tour of the White House, and I was immediately struck by how distinctive her manner of speaking was. 

Here are some articles I found that talk a bit about her accent and how it is a signifier of her social class and education:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/7/14442410/jackie-kennedy-accent-natalie-portman

https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/natalie-portman-jackie-kennedy-accent-1201780153/

Edited by Zella
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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)
3 hours ago, Zella said:

Yes that's what I meant! LOL Though that's a fair point @annzeepark914 about New York being a mid-Atlantic state. 

As someone born in 1989, I think the first time I heard Jackie talk--though I certainly knew who she was--is the Mad Men episode where the characters are watching archival footage of her TV tour of the White House, and I was immediately struck by how distinctive her manner of speaking was. 

Here are some articles I found that talk a bit about her accent and how it is a signifier of her social class and education:

https://www.vox.com/culture/2017/2/7/14442410/jackie-kennedy-accent-natalie-portman

https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/natalie-portman-jackie-kennedy-accent-1201780153/

In this 1953 interview with Jack and Jackie, I would have guessed that Edward R. Murrow's speech was the true "Mid-Atlantic," cultivated by those whose speeches would be recorded for public consumption. But maybe it's a bit different? 
Anyway, Jackie's voice and speech patterns here remind me of my mother's and of Lucille Ball's, but with an occasional southern vowel thrown in:

 

Edited by shapeshifter
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Lugal

Lugal

23 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Transatlantic is probably a better name - less confusing with the Mid-Atlantic region of the US.

I've also heard it called a North Atlantic accent.

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

When Jackie says “apahtment,” she sounds just like me or my relatives and neighbors living in Queens or the Bronx during that same time period. Not what I expected. 

I've always thought this was interesting because, with the exception of Philadelphia and Baltimore, all east coast US accents are non-rhotic, meaning they drop the /r/ in most circumstances.  It goes back to colonial days when they tried to imitate the "cultured" speech of London, which was itself by that time, non-rhotic as well.

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
7 hours ago, Lugal said:

I've also heard it called a North Atlantic accent.

I've always thought this was interesting because, with the exception of Philadelphia and Baltimore, all east coast US accents are non-rhotic, meaning they drop the /r/ in most circumstances.  It goes back to colonial days when they tried to imitate the "cultured" speech of London, which was itself by that time, non-rhotic as well.

I've seen interesting discussion that many of the non-rhotic American accents in the East are in areas primarily settled by English settlers who had non-rhotic accents. By the same token, areas that have rhotic accents tend to have been settled by people from the UK who had rhotic accents. I am not sure if that is necessarily true, but it definitely make sense for Southern accents. The non-rhotic coastal accents are very different from the rhotic Appalachian accents that my family have, and historically those areas were settled by people coming very different parts of the UK.  

Edited by Zella
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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

Since moving to Rochester NY, I’ve had trouble communicating with some local people because I get so distracted by the meaning of their syntax. 
At last I have an example to share here:

As heard on local (Rochester, NY) over-the-air NBC television station WHEC at 5:20 a.m. Monday morning: 

[MONDAY WEATHER FORECAST BY RICH CANIGLIA]
“…since the end of this week…”

It should have been:
“…through the end of this week…”

Could this have just been a typo on the teleprompter?
Sure. 
But it might be an example of the local syntax I’ve been trying to capture so I know I’m not crazy — at least not about this issue.

Edited by shapeshifter
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annzeepark914

annzeepark914

On 2/10/2025 at 6:25 AM, shapeshifter said:

Since moving to Rochester NY, I’ve had trouble communicating with some local people because I get so distracted by the meaning of their syntax. 
At last I have an example to share here:

As heard on local (Rochester, NY) over-the-air NBC television station WHEC at 5:20 a.m. Monday morning: 

[MONDAY WEATHER FORECAST BY RICH CANIGLIA]
“…since the end of this week…”

It should have been:
“…through the end of this week…”

Could this have just been a typo on the teleprompter?
Sure. 
But it might be an example of the local syntax I’ve been trying to capture so I know I’m not crazy — at least not about this issue.

That's interesting. Any other examples? I grew up in the lower Hudson Valley with parents who were from NYC & CT. They were always amused by the strange words of the locals (gooms & storeboughten). A Utica TV meteorologist posted a "map" of NY on Facebook recently,showing all the very different regions in NYS. Of course this map triggered the neverending debate re: where does upstate truly begin (but it was friendly, unlike at other sites over the years 😎).

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

4 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Any other examples?

Not that I’ve managed to recall. 
A local real estate agent told me to go ahead of her into a narrow space so I would be able to see the full extent of it. But something in her syntax made it sound like the opposite, so I said, “Pardon?” and she repeated it, but I was so focused on interpreting her meaning that I can’t recall the actual words.
I think it was either a preposition used to mean its opposite, or the subject and object reversed, or maybe both.
Maybe she said: “I’ll go ahead after you.”
Or: “After you’ve gone, I’ll go ahead.”
But neither of those seems as confusing as her turn of phrase seemed to me at the time.🤷‍♀️

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annzeepark914

annzeepark914

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Not that I’ve managed to recall. 
A local real estate agent told me to go ahead of her into a narrow space so I would be able to see the full extent of it. But something in her syntax made it sound like the opposite, so I said, “Pardon?” and she repeated it, but I was so focused on interpreting her meaning that I can’t recall the actual words.
I think it was either a preposition used to mean its opposite, or the subject and object reversed, or maybe both.
Maybe she said: “I’ll go ahead after you.”
Or: “After you’ve gone, I’ll go ahead.”
But neither of those seems as confusing as her turn of phrase seemed to me at the time.🤷‍♀️

Thanks. Now *that* sounds really strange. I've never encountered this in NY. When I moved to Raleigh, I heard some doozies from eastern North Carolinians. It's been many years, but the one that I can still remember (since I had to ask my boss two times to repeat it) was, "You know not!" WTH? I asked another staffer what it meant & learned that he was expressing amazement at something I'd told him. Just thought of another one: "You might could" (as in, You might could give so & so a call to...) NC was where I learned that people do not casually use the words supper & dinner. Those words have meaning.

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Lugal

Lugal

1 hour ago, annzeepark914 said:

Just thought of another one: "You might could" (as in, You might could give so & so a call to...)

I read an essay about the Southern double modal. "Sounds of the South" by Guy Bailey and Jan Tillery, in American Voices.  There they said:

Quote

might could conveys a greater sense of tentativeness than might be able does.  The use of multiple modals provides Southerners with a politeness strategy not available in other regional dialects.

If you want a good book about North American dialects, I recommend it.

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Milburn Stone

Milburn Stone

On 2/10/2025 at 5:25 AM, shapeshifter said:

Since moving to Rochester NY, I’ve had trouble communicating with some local people because I get so distracted by the meaning of their syntax. 
At last I have an example to share here:

As heard on local (Rochester, NY) over-the-air NBC television station WHEC at 5:20 a.m. Monday morning: 

[MONDAY WEATHER FORECAST BY RICH CANIGLIA]
“…since the end of this week…”

It should have been:
“…through the end of this week…”

Something of a tangent, but a lot of 19th century English literature uses the word "since" where we would say "ago." I first encountered this in Trollope, but it precedes him. Some examples can be found on this forum.

When I encounter weird syntax in America, I usually default to thinking that the first settlers of that area came from a part of England (or elsewhere) where that syntax was correct. Don't know how that applies to Rochester, but maybe.

 

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Zella

Zella

(edited)
20 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

NC was where I learned that people do not casually use the words supper & dinner. Those words have meaning.

I am originally from Western NC but have lived in rural Arkansas for many years, and those words also have specific meanings here. I know some local farm families who still eat their largest meal of the day at noon and it is always dinner, never lunch. But even for the people who no longer do that, they've preserved the distinction in the terms. My grandparents certainly do. 

19 hours ago, Lugal said:

I read an essay about the Southern double modal. "Sounds of the South" by Guy Bailey and Jan Tillery, in American Voices.  There they said:

If you want a good book about North American dialects, I recommend it.

I'll have to check this book out! I have an MA in English and still use might could because it really does have a specific meaning that's hard to evoke with other phrases.

Edited by Zella
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Lugal

Lugal

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Something of a tangent, but a lot of 19th century English literature uses the word "since" where we would say "ago." I first encountered this in Trollope, but it precedes him. Some examples can be found on this forum.

The Scots song "Auld Lang Syne" literally translates to old long since.

 

38 minutes ago, Zella said:

I'll have to check this book out! I have an MA in English and still use might could because it really does have a specific meaning that's hard to evoke with other phrases.

American Voices edited by Walt Wolfram and Ben Ward.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)

A headline reads: "If Less Than 115,000 Votes…"

        Should it be: "If Fewer Than 115,000 Votes…"?
(presuming the space allotted per line for the headline is not an issue)

I should be able to figure this out, but I had a tooth pulled this past week.
Yes, that's my excuse.

Edited by shapeshifter
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Milburn Stone

Milburn Stone

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

A headline reads: "If Less Than 115,000 Votes…"

        Should it be: "If Fewer Than 115,000 Votes…"?
(presuming the space allotted per line for the headline is not an issue)

I should be able to figure this out, but I had a tooth pulled this past week.
Yes, that's my excuse.

You're correct, @shapeshifter.

But it's fuzzy. The number of votes is a large enough number that it feels like one mass. If it really were one mass, "less" would be correct. ("A dozen eggs is less than a gross of eggs.") That's why one can hear "less" in the sentence you cite and not have it feel like chalk on a blackboard.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

16 minutes ago, ABay said:

Twice this week I've seen overwhelm used like this "the overwhelm of other people's opinions" and "how to combat the overwhelm." WTF?

Twice in one week? Buckle up, buttercups, looks like we've got a new neologism.
Introducing…🥁…: “Overwhelm,“ the noun.

But wait. There's more:
From the June 2017 "Language Corner" of the Columbia Journalism Review, cjr.org/language_corner/overwhelming-overwhelm-whelm-grammar-noun-verb.php

  • “So it comes as something of a surprise to learn that “overwhelm” has been a noun since at least 1596, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The definition given, “[t]he action of overwhelming; the fact or state of being overwhelmed; an instance of this,” is the way it is still being used today. Even so, no other major dictionary includes the noun.”

And now I want to discuss the use of "So" at the beginning of a sentence in professional writing. 

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Milburn Stone

Milburn Stone

(edited)
1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:
  • “So it comes as something of a surprise to learn that “overwhelm” has been a noun since at least 1596, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. The definition given, “[t]he action of overwhelming; the fact or state of being overwhelmed; an instance of this,” is the way it is still being used today. Even so, no other major dictionary includes the noun.”

And now I want to discuss the use of "So" at the beginning of a sentence in professional writing. 

That use of "So" doesn't bug me, but the use of "So" to begin the answer to any question has become something of a universal tic. ("So, there are many reasons for that, Stacey.") I do it myself in emails and message board posts all the time, probably to create an informal tone. (I don't think it through, but that's probably why.)

I suppose, in the example you cite, the word "Therefore" would be a more formal way to start, but I feel like "So" and "Therefore" and "Thus" have become true synonyms in that context.

 

Edited by Milburn Stone
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