S02.E12: All Things Must Pass

[thewhiteowl]

 

Nolan races to save Tommy’s life and stop Irisa before her growing forces can put their devastating plan into motion. Meanwhile back in town, Amanda learns the heart-breaking truth about her sister’s murder leading to a daring showdown between Amanda and Stahma.

 

 

 

[Chaos Theory]

God how I love the Tarrs.  This episode went to show how a perfect couple Datak and Stahma actually are.  O actually really enjoyed the scene with them tied int the silo with Amanda when she learned the horrible horrible truth.  I liked her reasoning for not shooting them and I liked the fact that she admitted to Pottinger how much she wanted to.  

[wanderingstar]

God how I love the Tarrs.

 

 

Indeed. Everything with them was full of win!

 

ETA: So, we've really lost Tommy, then? I'm sad. I liked that character a great deal.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Gillian Rosh

[thuganomics85]

Getting captured, chained inside a silo, and having a gun pointed to their heads, was one hell of a marriage council session for Datak and Stahma.  And it worked!  The Tarrs are back in business!  And, look, they're already learning to accept compromise, like Datak realizing that poison is in fact a good way to kill a bunch of guys who turned you in.  Aww!  I know I should hate them, but I really do love the Tarr family.

 

Of course, Pottinger would think this was an acceptable method to impress a woman.  I bet he is great on first dates!  I felt bad for Amanda.  Really, I don't think it's too bad that she wanted to pull the trigger.  I think if most found out someone you considered close to them killed your sister, the thought would cross their mind.  By not doing do it, Amanda already is better then almost the majority of the characters populating Defiance.

 

Oh, man, could they have telegraphed it even bigger that Tommy was going to bite it?  I mean, showing flashbacks is all but guaranteeing it was going to end with his death.  Nolan's reaction was well-acted, but I didn't think they did a good job at earning it, since Nolan was such a dick to him throughout the entire season.  But, wow, is Irisa going to feel like shit.  Berlin definitely was upset.

 

Doc Yewll having conversations with her imaginary wife to pass the time!  Well, until the Kaziri took her over.  Yeah, a ship controlling an imaginary friend is par for the course on this show.

 

More thoughts in the finale thread.

[BungalowSummer]

Getting captured, chained inside a silo, and having a gun pointed to their heads, was one hell of a marriage council session for Datak and Stahma. And it worked!

I love how Stahma told Datak: "What you said to Amanda was brave. I think it appealed to something human in her."

Ha! Yes, Amanda has something human in her, a failing one won't find in Stahma or Datak.

I'm am so sorry that Tommy is dead and hate that Irisa killed him, but I can't say the writers shied away from high stakes consequences. As soon as we had his viewpoint looking up at the trees, I knew he was going to die. The flashbacks and Nolan acknowledging his respect and affection for Tommy were further guarantees. Nevertheless, they were good to hear. Nolan cared about Tommy and at least Tommy knew it.

I didn't think the CGI was all that terrible except for the terraforming at ground level in NY. They shouldn't have included it if they couldn't do it better. The running and writhing people and creatures looked like they'd been recycled from the video game.

Otherwise, I thought everything with the Kaziri and Irisa on the hilltop were better than good enough.

Edited August 29, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[GaT]

Stahma & Datak arguing while tied back to back was pure gold, I hope we see more of that, and I'm glad Amanda finally knows what happened to Kenya.

 

Does Linda Hamilton have aging makeup on, or does she really look like she’s in her 70s? The woman is only 57, there is no way someone is that wrinkled at 57.

 

johntfs sorry about Tommy (me too) I guess you were right to worry.

[sjohnson]

Destroying New York was the easy way of restoring Defiance' "independence" without a revolution. 

 

Not one moment's suspense about Amanda shooting Stahma. Kenya asking Stahma to come with her says to me that as usual Amanda is wrong. Stahma going back to Datak undermines the character's integrity but sets up more Datak/Stahma squabbling. 

 

Tommy asking Irisa to marry him seems like a gigantic withhold on the character to me. It also makes her abandoning him even colder. Nolan taking Tommy's money, then abusing Tommy really does show vividly what kind of a man Nolan is. 

 

The Irisa/Robin Dunne lookalikes in the flashbacks we saw for the third time tonight are not ancestors of Irisa and the world's nicest Irathient lawyer. They went to Earth in 856 BCE and however the modern versions are connected, it's not by descent. It is very strange that one of the "keys" was somehow left lying around instead of in someone. It also is very strange that Irisa with two keys is somehow unable to control the Kaziri AI but two separate people are.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

In the logic of the show, the two keys have to be kept separate. The two keyholders in the past had to remain apart to make sure everything stayed safe. So it makes "sense" that if they are in one person, they could overwhelm that person.

[kryss]

Does Linda Hamilton have aging makeup on, or does she really look like she’s in her 70s? The woman is only 57, there is no way someone is that wrinkled at 57.

I don't think so, she has looked like this in other recent shows too (eg. Lost Girl). At first I found it jarring as I still remember her as Sarah Connor, though to be fair that was a lot of years ago!  The more I see her like this though, the more I like it.  She is a *real* 57yo, not an airbrushed, nipped and tucked version.  This is what many people of this age look like, and she is still beautiful regardless of being older.  Once I was over the contrast, I find her strangely appealing to watch.  It must also take some guts to be 'normal' in a profession that is anything but.

[sjohnson]

In the logic of the show, the two keys have to be kept separate. The two keyholders in the past had to remain apart to make sure everything stayed safe. So it makes "sense" that if they are in one person, they could overwhelm that person.

I keep forgetting that because I can't make any sense out of it. The finale showed us the actual solution, deactivating Kaziri. None of this story would have happened if they had gone ahead and done that in 856 BCE! 

[Shanna Marie]

Of course, Pottinger would think this was an acceptable method to impress a woman.  I bet he is great on first dates!

Yeah, just when you're starting to think that he might be more or less human, after all, and figuring out how that works, he goes and shows that his idea of a grand romantic gesture is to solve Amanda's sister's murder, have the culprits kidnapped and tied up in a silo, and then give Amanda a gun. I guess there's no more chocolate in that world. And this is why I'm inclined to believe he isn't the rapist. That's too straightforward and forceful for him -- I want you, I will have you. Though I wouldn't put it past him to have hired or otherwise arranged a rapist so that it would drive a wedge in her relationship and leave her emotionally vulnerable so he could then come and be the shoulder to cry on. That does sound like his style. As they say around here, that boy ain't right.

 

I was really hoping Tommy would pull through. I liked him. He was possibly the most "normal" and sane person on the show. But I guess we can't have that!

[GaT]

I don't think so, she has looked like this in other recent shows too (eg. Lost Girl). At first I found it jarring as I still remember her as Sarah Connor, though to be fair that was a lot of years ago!  The more I see her like this though, the more I like it.  She is a *real* 57yo, not an airbrushed, nipped and tucked version.  This is what many people of this age look like, and she is still beautiful regardless of being older.  Once I was over the contrast, I find her strangely appealing to watch.  It must also take some guts to be 'normal' in a profession that is anything but.

But that's the thing, she doesn't look like a real 57 years old woman, she looks like a 57 years old woman's mother. A 57 years old woman may have a few wrinkles, but they don't have the deep trenches all over their face that she does. She looks like someone who was rode hard & put away wet.

[Chaos Theory]

Actually Linda Hamilton's real problem is she looks like a real woman and not an actress. Not used to that on my TV screen.

Edited August 29, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[mustbekarma]

But that's the thing, she doesn't look like a real 57 years old woman, she looks like a 57 years old woman's mother. A 57 years old woman may have a few wrinkles, but they don't have the deep trenches all over their face that she does. She looks like someone who was rode hard & put away wet.

I just assumed they exaggerated the wrinkles she already had with makeup. Plus, she's suffered from mental illness, been in a mental institution, and been in a Votan prison camp. I thought it was apropos that she looked "rode hard and put away wet." Because she was.

[shapeshifter]

I love how Stahma told Datak: "What you said to Amanda was brave. I think it appealed to something human in her."

Am I the only one who thought he only told Amanda to shoot him instead of Stahma "because I can't live without her" in anticipation that Amanda would decide it was a greater punishment to let him live without her and that Amanda would kill Stahma and let him live? Or am I now thinking more Tarr-like than a real Tarr?

Destroying New York was the easy way of restoring Defiance' "independence" without a revolution. 

Oh wow, I totally missed that plot point. Did anyone/everyone else get that?

[sjohnson]

Re Linda Hamilton's looks, the amount of wrinkling for some types of fair skin is determined by the amount of UV light exposure. Yes, for some people that is what tanning can do to you. There are people like Sophia Loren or Helen Mirren or Lena Horne who don't seem to age. But although that kind of variation is normal more of the actresses who survive time seemingly unscathed are showed on screen. Add to that the heavy use of cosmetics, photographic effects and medical procedures, anyone who gets their ideas of normal from Hollywood is apt to be horribly misled. 

 

And on a personal note, I don't think refusing botox is some sort of crazy decision. I don't even think she should hide her wrinkles under a rock.

[GaT]

I don't want to turn this thread into a conversation about Linda Hamilton's wrinkles, but this just popped up & I think it really illustrates what I mean. Ellen Barkin (who is 60) did an interview with Violet Grey & they took some photos. She asked that they not retouch them, so this is really her. She doesn't look like she's 25, but she doesn't look like Linda Hamilton. She looks like a 60 years old woman. That is what 60 looks like, 57 looks about the same. 

[sjohnson]

And this is how she looks like that at sixty: "EB: I have not been under the knife. I laser. And I’ve tried every type of laser out there. Now I’m into the Ulthera Laser. I do it once a year. It’s extremely painful. You don’t have any downtime at all. And I am religious about my Fraxels. It gets rid of discoloration and smooths out the surface of your skin. I still have hardly any pores on my face."  Also, more moderately: "Except when I am working, I never wear makeup. Like right now I have nothing on my face but eyebrow pencil, because as a young girl I tweezed all my eyebrows off. Given that, I take unbelievably good care of my skin. I never go to bed without washing my face and I never wake up without washing my face. And I sleep in a mask every night I sleep alone."

[BungalowSummer]

"Really her"? Credits on the shoot: Makeup by Yumi, Photography by Cedric Buchet. The makeup is professional and way beyond "eyebrow pencil" because Barkin is working. A skilled photographer doesn't need to "retouch" anything. The artifice is in the lighting, the filters and the printing. Even if Barkin didn't benefit from a heavy dose of celebrity artifice, she is not every or even a typical 60-yr old woman.

Linda Hamilton has clearly decided, for whatever reason, to age naturally, without benefit of lasers, Botox, plastic surgery, collagen injections or demands that lighting directors and cameramen choose flattering filters and angles. In an industry where actresses can watch their careers nosedive after 50 unless they preserve their faces and bodies like royal mummies, it's a brave choice to actually look believable in dramatic roles for older women.

Coincidentally, the Wikipedia entry for Linda Hamilton mentions that in 2005 she said in an interview that her first marriage was destroyed because she was suffering from bipolar disorder, for which she has since gotten treatment. It must be poignant for her to be playing Pilar McCawley.

[shapeshifter]

That is what 60 looks like, 57 looks about the same.

I'm that age. My sister taught me the secret to taking selfies that look like that: Lie down and hold the camera above you. Heh. We do not look like that standing or sitting up. I promise. And PhotoShop is our friend. LOL. FWIW, neither my sister nor I look as wrinkled as LH in this episode, but genetics vary. I envy her facial bone structure.

Back to other aspects of the episode, anyone have thought on my 2 questions above?

1. Was Datak trying to goad Amanda into shooting Stahma rather than expressing his love for his wife?

2. Does the destruction of NYC mean the end of the E-Rep, or at least its power?

[thewhiteowl]

I'll give it a shot, shapeshifter,  Datak seemed sincere to me but Stahma didn't seem to think so since she praised him for getting to Amanda's humanity. Even if he was sincere in that moment, the Tarr's emotions are mercurial at best.

 

I'm hoping it's an end to E-Rep's power at least.

[sjohnson]

Personally I think the E-Rep is on its way out, Amanda's going to be Mayor again, Nolan Lawkeeper, which means Irisa stays, Rafe gets his mines back. Defiance gets to seize the force field and the maglev. Quentin's role as an agent of the VC though suggests to me that the new villains will be the Votanis Collective, removing the embarrassment of "our" government being villains. Incidentally the destruction of Tallahassee strongly suggests that Mordechai (Robin Dunne's new character) is now homeless. My guess is he resettles to Defiance. 

 

By the way the destruction of the orbital junk means that they'll be introducing more communications and air travel at some point (plus whatever else was supposed to be impossible because of it.) 

 

Datak was trying to explain why he ordered Kenya's murder, I think. 

Edited August 30, 2014 by sjohnson

[BungalowSummer]

 

Personally I think the E-Rep is on its way out, Amanda's going to be Mayor again, Nolan Lawkeeper, which means Irisa stays, Rafe gets his mines back. Defiance gets to seize the force field and the maglev. Quentin's role as an agent of the VC though suggests to me that the new villains will be the Votanis Collective, removing the embarrassment of "our" government being villains. Incidentally the destruction of Tallahassee strongly suggests that Mordechai (Robin Dunne's new character) is now homeless. My guess is he resettles to Defiance.

 

I believe it's going to take awhile to get to that point. I think what's left of the E-Rep will set up shop in Defiance, but our guys will demand that the arrangement must be more of an alliance than an occupation. Happily (and conveniently) this can include Viceroy Mercado. (As an aside, my daughter loves Mercado and plans to cosplay him in Castithan drag on Halloween. Go figure.)

 

It had been suggested all season that both sides were gearing up for an expected outbreak of a shooting war again. Now both sides have lost their capital cities. They'll be weakened, but likely even more belligerent.

 

I've been wondering about Rafe's mines, and how they plan to find and unearth Nolan, Irisa and the rest of the pod people ("Sukar, that's a new look for him.").

 

The last thing said was that Old St. Louis was gone, presumably because the force field from the Kaziri was destroyed along with the ship and the entire area caved in. This was directly connected to Rafe's mines. The Kaziri was also, I believe, the original source of the gulanite.

 

So the questions are: Do the mines still exist? How did the dead arkbrain, killed by Irisa, manage to conjure up a pod at the last second to protect Nolan and Irisa? How are the pods still functioning with the Kaziri destroyed?

 

Did Mordecai actually escape, or is he also in a pod or even dead? I love Mordecai, so I want him to live and ultimately be reunited with Irisa. When she gets back to the surface, she's certainly going to need a good lawyer! BTW, he wasn't living in Tallahassee. He was born in Tallahassee which was nuked after his parents sent him to Israel. He was living in Cedars.

 

I am also intrigued by whatever Quentin and Pilar are up to with Christie and Alak. Can we say now that Quentin is just about the dumbest fck in Defiance? So whatever is happening, I don't think Quentin is in charge. Who knows what will happen when Rafe and the Tarrs catch up to them?

Edited August 30, 2014 by BungalowSummer

[Latverian Diplomat]

I guess I'm in a minority. I didn't buy Amanda letting the Tarrs walk with no consequences, even if she was unwilling to kill them herself. I think the writers just wrote themselves into a corner on this one. 

[RealityGal]

I'm that age. My sister taught me the secret to taking selfies that look like that: Lie down and hold the camera above you. Heh. We do not look like that standing or sitting up. I promise. And PhotoShop is our friend. LOL. FWIW, neither my sister nor I look as wrinkled as LH in this episode, but genetics vary. I envy her facial bone structure.

 

There was an episode of Golden Girls that dealt with the same thing.  Dorothy told Blanche that she would look younger if she looked at herself with a mirror above her.  Blanche responded that she looked amazing and would have to meet all her men laying down.  Dorothy zinged her by saying she thought Blanche did meet all her men on her back.  

[raven]

There've been some odd choices this season - Stahma saying she loved Kenya, which I believe the show wants us to believe but I have a hard time believing, if that makes sense.  I just didn't see it, not a huge flaw or anything but seems a little retconny and doesn't really affect the story one way or the other IMO.

 

I thought it odd that our last scene with Amanda/Tarrs was...Amanda leaving the silo.  Maybe just a dramatic choice that didn't quite work for me, but I wonder if something was said between the three of them that the show is holding onto for next year?  No dramatic "dropping of the gun" or anything, I mean. 

 

Not too happy about Tommy dying.  I liked having a nice guy around. 

 

The Tarrs were of course fantastic together.

[ghoul31]

Ok that was really lame

Datak and Stahma kill her sister and she just lets them go?

If someone killed your sister in real life would you just let them go?

 

They kill people every week and nobody cares? I just don't get it.

[Loandbehold]

We saw Amanda twice in this episode either do, or be willing to do something that went against her emotions because she was looking at what she logically believed (in her mind) was the greatest good for the greatest number. She didn't kill Stahma or Datak because someone else would take over the criminal enterprise in Defiance and she believed it was better to have the devil you know in charge. She was also willing to kill Irisa to prevent the Arkbrain from destroying the world. Contrast that to Nolan, who was all "damn the world, if my plan doesn't work, I'll at least be able to spend my last moments with my daughter." I might not have made the same decisions as Amanda in either case, but I can understand those decisions.

[MDKNIGHT]

Not killing them in cold blood I understood (from the POV that Amanda isn't normally a cold blooded killer) but come on.  Not sending them to jail?  There will ALWAYS be criminals taking over for other criminals does that mean that we never put any in jail because of it?  I understand that the needs of the show were that the Tarrs stay alive and free to move about but the writers owed it to us the audience to come up with a plausible reason why that would happen.  If it were me I would have had Pottinger send them to camp whatsit but then after NY got teraformed the E-rep can't get re-enforcements to prevent an uprising and then the Tarrs get out in a "Bastille Day" scenario and without any actual evidence against them Amanda can't keep them in jail.  It would be bitter but realistic.  Lots of times people have had to live with knowing who harmed a loved one but not having enough evidence to prove it.  It would at least make sense.

 

That aside I enjoyed the episode. 

[johntfs]

 

Not killing them in cold blood I understood (from the POV that Amanda isn't normally a cold blooded killer) but come on.  Not sending them to jail?  There will ALWAYS be criminals taking over for other criminals does that mean that we never put any in jail because of it?

 

It's not about other criminals taking over from the Tarrs, it's about other criminals having shoot-outs in the streets of Defiance to determine who takes over from the Tarrs.  Also, note that Amanda didn't simply forgive and forget.  She still plans to take them down/out.  However, Amanda wants to do it in such a way that won't unleash gangland violence on Defiance's citizens.

 

I will say that I'm glad to see the back of the Kaziri storyline.  I like Irisa as a character and I want to see more of her as a character instead of a plot device.

[maczero]

Does Linda Hamilton have aging makeup on, or does she really look like she’s in her 70s? The woman is only 57, there is no way someone is that wrinkled at 57.

I'm pretty sure that's the real Linda Hamilton.  I noticed how much she aged when she made a guest appearance on Lost Girl.  That said, it works for the character.  Life in a post apocalyptic insane asylum probably would be rough so it shouldn't be a surprise that it shows on her face.

 

 

Stahma & Datak arguing while tied back to back was pure gold, I hope we see more of that...

 

Agreed.  Another thing, I noticed is that Datak knows exactly how to push Stahma's buttons.  Sure, he can bully and threaten her but I actually find him more menacing when he makes her lose her shit.  Seeing Stahma's cool veneer shattered always fascinates me.

 

Yeah, just when you're starting to think that he might be more or less human, after all, and figuring out how that works, he goes and shows that his idea of a grand romantic gesture is to solve Amanda's sister's murder, have the culprits kidnapped and tied up in a silo, and then give Amanda a gun. I guess there's no more chocolate in that world. And this is why I'm inclined to believe he isn't the rapist. That's too straightforward and forceful for him -- I want you, I will have you. Though I wouldn't put it past him to have hired or otherwise arranged a rapist so that it would drive a wedge in her relationship and leave her emotionally vulnerable so he could then come and be the shoulder to cry on. That does sound like his style. As they say around here, that boy ain't right.

True.  The man loves himself some complicated plots but I thought he was in love with Amanda's ex.  Wouldn't Connor have been the focus of Pottinger's obsession back then?

[RealityGal]

Not too happy about Tommy dying.  I liked having a nice guy around. 

 

The Tarrs were of course fantastic together.

We can get another nice guy....and maybe even one thats a little better looking.  Nothing against Tommy, but there is always scads of female eye candy in this show, why not a little something for the ladies!?!??  

 

On the female end there is Stahma, Amanda, Berlin, Irisa, and Christine.  On the male side we have Nolan, Pottinger (who is not bad looking, but make me think of guyliner), and Rafe? Datak?  

 

I say...eye candy equality for all!

[Shanna Marie]

The man loves himself some complicated plots but I thought he was in love with Amanda's ex.  Wouldn't Connor have been the focus of Pottinger's obsession back then?

It's hard to tell if he was in love with Amanda's ex or wanted to be Amanda's ex -- sort of "Single White Female" style extreme imitation and eventually taking over his life. I guess that's a story to be told in future episodes, finding out when the obsession with Amanda began and what the deal with Connor really was. At any rate, the fact remains that the boy ain't right and is probably damaged beyond repair. He seems to mean well, in a really warped way, but he's so warped that things that seem like a good idea to him are actually really, really awful. Like presenting Amanda's sister's murderers to her as a loving, romantic gesture. Say it with kidnapping and imprisonment! (You know, that would make for far more interesting Valentine's Day ads.)

[MDKNIGHT]

It's not about other criminals taking over from the Tarrs, it's about other criminals having shoot-outs in the streets of Defiance to determine who takes over from the Tarrs.

 

But when has that ever been a real thing?  You don't put John Gotti in jail because other families might go to jail?  No you don't put him there until you have enough evidence or you never put him there because you never get enough evidence.  In Defiance they aren't bothering with evidence for ANY of the criminal stuff going on so like I said the writers did a very poor job of coming up with a plausible reason Amanda didn't have them arrested.  And note that apparently the Tarrs wiped out a whole lot of thier OWN gang so indirectly Amanda and Pottinger are responsible for those people's (albeit criminals but people none the less) being dead.  I'm not happy with this plot point at all.  I feel a little imagination and writing talent could have fixed this problem and still had the Tarrs running free to cause mayhem.

 

BTW the scenes in the last two eps with the Tarrs made me think they are an amped up more homicidal version of the Thenadieas in Les Miserables (the inn keeper and his wife who cheat people and steal frome the dead and sing "Master of the House.") They are just so darned unrepentent about everything. 

[Jordan27]

 

 

Does Linda Hamilton have aging makeup on, or does she really look like she’s in her 70s? The woman is only 57, there is no way someone is that wrinkled at 57.

 

 

Fighting Terminators makes one old.    So does being married to James Cameron. 

[paramitch]

I was sorry to see Tommy die, but I never quite got his character, who was just kind of a good-guy cipher to me. I definitely never got that he and Irisa were some kind of great love -- I found him far more interesting with Berlin, honestly.

Meanwhile, I was once again vastly irritated that the writers went back to their favorite "telling versus showing" method of increasing pathos -- unnecessary syrupy flashbacks.

 

The flashbacks added nothing for me except the certainty that Tommy would die. We've been watching the show. We already know the relationship between these two men. So adding last-minute texture just really bothered me here. It bothered me more in the terrible "Treasure Doll" subplot last episode with Deirdre and Amanda, but it was really annoying to see the device reused again so soon and in a way that once again just padded the episode. I was far more touched by the present scenes of Nolan trying to save Tommy's life, and struggling for 24 hours in the snow with the stretcher. I just didn't need the flashbacks.

 

I thought the Mayor's latest twisted gift to Amanda was kind of hilarious (he's like some out of control pet bringing gruesome trophies in search of affection). But I liked the scenes with Stahma and Datak, especially if this finally leads Datak to become more complex and flexible. I love Tony Curran, and find Datak a lot more interesting when he's struggling than when he's on top of the heap. And I do actually believe that Stahma loved Kenya. She just loved (and feared) Datak more.

 

Last but not least, it's always good to see Linda Hamilton working. Sure, she's got some lines, but I love the fact that she's not stretched and Botoxed (although I definitely don't judge those who are). Her face hasn't changed at all. Her bone structure will keep her beautiful even when she's 90.