S03.E09: Part Nine - Vox

[Francie]

21 hours ago, Sandman said:

But I’ll admit, I’m curious: how do space fireworks work?

OMG -- thank you!!! That perplexed me in the moment, but then I totally forgot about it. Because, apathy. 

And put me on Team Most of the Crew Should be Older than 25. I don't agree with the argument that starships are heavy in lower grade lieutenants and ensigns. It's not what we saw. And it makes no sense to have a career in starfleet to only spend your first gig in space. Then, what? One works at starfleet academy for 40 years?

I also don't agree that Starfleet Academy is like a community college where people graduated in 2-3 years instead of a bachelor degree issuing university where they graduate in 4 or 5 years, or 6-8 for a graduate degree. But let's say, for argument's sake, a career starts at 21. 

Let's rounddown a career to 40 years, and imagine people in the future not working past 62. And in the future, I'd like to think that people don't see careers as grinds until retirement, but a lifelong passion. 

So 4 years out of 40 would be 10%. I would expect no more than 10% of that crew to be under 25. Especially when it's supposed to be filled with scientists, engineers, and medical professionals. 

And that's just leaving out how Guinan would ruin the curve. ;)

8 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think his job, in this case, is to geek out, not be a critic. He is doing a good job.

Even Terry Matalas thought Wil Wheaton oversold the surprise appearance of Toothipick, the Vulcan from, I'm going to guess, Voyager? The one who turned into a changeling. Wil was all, "We have a huge a surprise on our next show!" and Matalas had to tweet, "Eh, it's not that big of a surprise. I don't know why he's saying that." 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by Francie

[FloatOn]

People directly tweeting at Matalas about the Kestra thing and Riker & Deanna looking bad and him refusing to answer them while he answers every other question is....certainly a choice. Maybe there's something about it in the next episode and they don't want to spoil it (doubt it though), but oof.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, FloatOn said:

People directly tweeting at Matalas about the Kestra thing and Riker & Deanna looking bad and him refusing to answer them while he answers every other question is....certainly a choice. Maybe there's something about it in the next episode and they don't want to spoil it (doubt it though), but oof.

Deanna and Will kind of forgot they had a still living kid.

[Chit Chat]

4 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think his job, in this case, is to geek out, not be a critic. He is doing a good job.

I love his enthusiasm for all things Star Trek!  Geek away, Wil!!

[marinw]

1 hour ago, ChitChat said:

love his enthusiasm for all things Star Trek!  Geek away, Wil!!

It still sort of sucks that he wasn't part of the reuinion. I just hope he doesn't show up in  some sort of Traveller Deus ex machina.

People were so cruel to Wil Wheaton during the original TNG run, some people HATED Wesley. And this was very early internet.

[Good Queen Jane]

I just want to say I hate this storyline, I can’t stand Jack and the whole circumstances of his life, and I am disappointed in this whole series. But when Patrick Stewart sat in the command chair, tugged on his shirt, and said “Engage!”, I burst into tears.  Damn you, Show, for manipulating my emotions but Gawd, I loved it!

[Prevailing Wind]

I never understood why they couldn't have uniforms that didn't require "The Picard Maneuver."

[greekmom]

One thing I didn't get is why Jack allowed himself to be assimilated.

My friend and I were discussing this, she thinks that Jack had no choice as the Borg Queen was in his head. Personally, I don't think that and don't understand the reasoning.

Gawh. Have I mentioned how bad the writing is? 

[ottoDbusdriver]

Here's some of the ships noticed on the displays:

USS Gilgamesh (call back to TNG episode 'Darmok')
USS Sutherland (call back to TNG episode 'Redemption - Part 2', though based on the registration number it's a newer one)
USS Callisto
USS Ganymede
USS Venture
USS Drexler
USS Akira
USS Okuda
USS Thunderchild
USS Resnik
USS Mandel
USS Clark
USS Excelsior
USS Magellan
USS Appalachia
USS Oberon
USS Tourangeau
USS Huygens
USS Gagarin
USS John Kelly (callback to Voyager episode 'One Small Step')
USS Reliant (callback to Star Trek: The Wrath of Khan movie)
USS Shackleton
USS Zheng He
USS Amalthea
USS Forrest (no doubt a reference to Admiral Forrest from Star Trek: Enterprise)
USS Ross (possibly a callback to Admiral Ross from DS9)
USS Ibn Al-Haytham
USS Tiro
USS Harlan
USS Helios
USS Himalia
USS Hikaru Sulu (nice to see that Sulu got a ship named after him)
USS Firesword
USS Intrepid (I guess the Intrepid made it back to the Sol system after Ro's shuttle blew up)
USS Luna 
USS Cochrane (Zefrem)
USS Trumbull
USS Pulaski (was it a medical starship ?)

Has anyone figured out what the Starfleet ships spelled out while in formation ?  Was it in the Borg language ?

[paigow]

9 hours ago, Francie said:

And put me on Team Most of the Crew Should be Older than 25.

Security and Engineering [O.G. Redshirts] would comprise the majority of crew members because losing a few on every mission is a fact of life...

Generally, they would be among the youngest crew members because they are in a high risk job - Away Team; every alien dogfight starts with shots at the Warp Core / Nacelles; Troi orders you on a suicide mission to repair plasma conduits- and no old dude Science Officers are begging to transfer in.  The U.S. Army in Vietnam is an example of many very young frontline soldiers with old commanders... Starfleet Security is likely modelled on that...

[Peace 47]

24 minutes ago, greekmom said:

One thing I didn't get is why Jack allowed himself to be assimilated.

My friend and I were discussing this, she thinks that Jack had no choice as the Borg Queen was in his head. Personally, I don't think that and don't understand the reasoning.

Gawh. Have I mentioned how bad the writing is? 

I agree with you that I think Jack did have control enough to make a choice, although the level of his control will be dicey, I’m sure.  The only way this can logically end is if Jack gets control over the assimilated to stop the madness in some way.  Blind guess, but maybe the OG 7 come up with a way to get the Borg stuff out of DNA through another transporter trip.  Then they find a way to connect with Jack to have him send a message to the assimilated to go through the transporters to de-assimilate.

I’m still worried about all the olds on all these ships, though.  I hope they’re not all really dead.

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

Here's some of the ships noticed on the displays:

USS Callisto - Xena !!!!
USS Drexler - As in Clyde The Glide
USS Mandel - Please not Howie
USS John Kelly (callback to Voyager episode 'One Small Step') NYPD Blue Goddamit!!!
USS Ross (possibly a callback to Admiral Ross from DS9) Geller

 

[greekmom]

7 minutes ago, Peace 47 said:

I agree with you that I think Jack did have control enough to make a choice, although the level of his control will be dicey, I’m sure.  The only way this can logically end is if Jack gets control over the assimilated to stop the madness in some way.  Blind guess, but maybe the OG 7 come up with a way to get the Borg stuff out of DNA through another transporter trip.  Then they find a way to connect with Jack to have him send a message to the assimilated to go through the transporters to de-assimilate.

I’m still worried about all the olds on all these ships, though.  I hope they’re not all really dead.

Jack: "Data Sleep"

Dr. Crusher: "My poor baby. He's exhausted."

Data: "I don't think so Doctor... I think he wants us to put the Borg to sleep."

Of course they will probably go there.

[Francie]

5 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I never understood why they couldn't have uniforms that didn't require "The Picard Maneuver."

The show runners had the costumes be tight and a little small to keep wrinkles from forming.

7 hours ago, marinw said:

It still sort of sucks that he wasn't part of the reuinion. I just hope he doesn't show up in  some sort of Traveller Deus ex machina.

When Wesley shows up as a Traveler Deus ex machine, I'm blaming you, Marinw. 

4 hours ago, paigow said:

The U.S. Army in Vietnam is an example of many very young frontline soldiers with old commanders

In World War II the average age of the combat soldier was 26.

Thank you, Paul Hardcastle for searing that into my brain. 

[Prevailing Wind]

USS Harlan = Harlan Ellison.

Why is there no ship named for Carl Sagan? 

[starri]

7 hours ago, paigow said:

USS Drexler - As in Clyde The Glide

It's for Doug Drexler, who worked in the art department from TNG all the way up to now, most notably designing the NX-01.

Quite a few of the ships were named after their visual effects guys.

7 hours ago, paigow said:

USS Mandel - Please not Howie

This is Geoffrey Mandel.

The USS Hikaru Sulu was also joined by (presumably a sister ship) the USS Uhura.

[marinw]

Very Earth Centric ship names. Starfleet must admistered mostly from Earth.

Edited April 16, 2023 by marinw

[marinw]

7 hours ago, Francie said:

When Wesley shows up as a Traveler Deus ex machine, I'm blaming you, Marinw. 

Blame accepted!

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, Francie said:

And put me on Team Most of the Crew Should be Older than 25. I don't agree with the argument that starships are heavy in lower grade lieutenants and ensigns. It's not what we saw. And it makes no sense to have a career in starfleet to only spend your first gig in space. Then, what? One works at starfleet academy for 40 years?

I also don't agree that Starfleet Academy is like a community college where people graduated in 2-3 years instead of a bachelor degree issuing university where they graduate in 4 or 5 years, or 6-8 for a graduate degree. But let's say, for argument's sake, a career starts at 21. 

Let's rounddown a career to 40 years, and imagine people in the future not working past 62. And in the future, I'd like to think that people don't see careers as grinds until retirement, but a lifelong passion. 

So 4 years out of 40 would be 10%. I would expect no more than 10% of that crew to be under 25. Especially when it's supposed to be filled with scientists, engineers, and medical professionals. 

And that's just leaving out how Guinan would ruin the curve. ;)

Considering Jack is 23, I don't know if we can trust our visual estimates on age. 

I don't know if TNG ever really firmly established any of the ages of anyone beyond saying Wesley was a teenager. We know that Wesley attempted to enter Starfleet Academy as a young teen, and over in DS9, Nog also applied (and apparently graduated and started serving) as a teen/young adult. 

I think using the notion that people have long careers is not a particularly good measuring stick to estimate the ages of the crew. Just because the 21-24 is 10 percent of the working years one might be expected to have does not logically mean that the distribution of a crew would correspond to that. By that logic, one would expect that 10 percent of the crew is 58-62, and every four-year increment in between. There is no reason to think that a crew would be so evenly distributed. 

At the end of the day, Starfleet is a military. And if it is anything like current and historical militaries,  it will be disproportionately people under 25.

 Google led me to this chart of U.S. armed forces by age:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/232711/number-of-active-duty-us-defense-force-personnel-by-age/

Now in fairness, there are cultural, economic and biological reasons why all past and present militaries have been so disproportionately young that might not apply to Trek. In Star Trek, no one joins Starfleet because they have to earn a living or to save for college or for lack of other options. And it seems perfectly plausible that someone could say at age 40 "Hey, time for a second career in Starfleet," whereas in the current situation I don't think one can even enlist in active duty for the first time past 40.

I'm not saying Starfleet is like a community college. I'm saying it's like West Point or the Naval Academy, where most people graduate at or around 21. Yes, it is possible to stay there and obtain advanced degrees before you start your military career. But generally, people are expected to graduate around then and start working on ships.

But at the same time, in the 25th Century, the educational system is going to be radically different. You can master, and indeed, are expected to master all sorts of science and such before graduating the Academy, which I think/hope we can agree from what we've seen happens around age 21 on average.

No one is saying that your first or only space gig in Starfleet would be when you're young. What I'm saying is that from everything we've seen, Starfleet follows the model of conventional militaries, which are overwhelmingly staffed in active duty capacities with younger people. 

This is all sort of academic, at the end of the day. Even if we were to accept the premise that only 10 percent of crews were 25 and younger and therefore turned into Borg, that is still plenty to easily eliminate the older crews and take most ships when you consider that they have the element of surprise and the ability to coordinate their attacks. 

 

[catsitter]

I know it's really not worth trying to make it make sense, but if we accept that the transporters don't bother to copy each person's full DNA sequence every time, but use the library sequence for the "common code", why wasn't Picard's anolamous Borg-authored DNA segment overwritten with the library version any time he used a transporter after being Locutus?

[greekmom]

37 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Considering Jack is 23, I don't know if we can trust our visual estimates on age. 

I don't know if TNG ever really firmly established any of the ages of anyone beyond saying Wesley was a teenager. We know that Wesley attempted to enter Starfleet Academy as a young teen, and over in DS9, Nog also applied (and apparently graduated and started serving) as a teen/young adult. 

I thought the reason that Nog and people in Starfleet during his time were fast tracked due to the Dominion War.  At some point Starfleet was losing pretty bad and the casualties were high.

Granted Wesley was present during Wolf 359 but that wasn't a full drawn out war and the casualties were probably just as high but I can see why Nog was fast tracked to get out to the field asap.  Even during WW1 and WW2 there were actual male children as young as 12 enlisting (illegally).

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I thought the reason that Nog and people in Starfleet during his time were fast tracked due to the Dominion War.  At some point Starfleet was losing pretty bad and the casualties were high.

Granted Wesley was present during Wolf 359 but that wasn't a full drawn out war and the casualties were probably just as high but I can see why Nog was fast tracked to get out to the field asap.  Even during WW1 and WW2 there were actual male children as young as 12 enlisting (illegally).

I think TNG had Wesley applying to the Academy in his early-to-mid teens and portrayed him as actually being relatively late to the process. That was during peacetime and was portrayed as normal.

Nog got field commissions that propelled him through the ranks faster than might have otherwise been expected. But he must have entered Starfleet around the time you would expect someone to be a college freshman regardless at somewhere between ages 16-19, and would have been younger than 25 at the end of DS9. 

[Cattoy]

1 hour ago, catsitter said:

I know it's really not worth trying to make it make sense, but if we accept that the transporters don't bother to copy each person's full DNA sequence every time, but use the library sequence for the "common code", why wasn't Picard's anolamous Borg-authored DNA segment overwritten with the library version any time he used a transporter after being Locutus?

Because you are using logic and thinking through the ramifications. The writers did not.

[paigow]

10 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Why is there no ship named for Carl Sagan? 

Maybe there is a Daystrom Institute lecture hall....

[PurpleTentacle]

19 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I never understood why they couldn't have uniforms that didn't require "The Picard Maneuver."

They changed uniforms from the jumpsuits to regular clothing around season 2. Picard did his maneuver before and after and it certainly wasn't required with the jumpsuits. It's just a fun affectation Patrick Stewart gave the character.

17 hours ago, paigow said:

Security and Engineering [O.G. Redshirts] would comprise the majority of crew members because losing a few on every mission is a fact of life...

Generally, they would be among the youngest crew members because they are in a high risk job - Away Team; every alien dogfight starts with shots at the Warp Core / Nacelles; Troi orders you on a suicide mission to repair plasma conduits- and no old dude Science Officers are begging to transfer in.  The U.S. Army in Vietnam is an example of many very young frontline soldiers with old commanders... Starfleet Security is likely modelled on that...

I'm not convinced.

The US army is a bad comparison. The Federation has eliminated poverty. So young men and women don't have to join the military out of desperation anymore.

The US army during the time of the Vietnam war is an extra bad example, because they drafted a lot of young men and of course they would send those to the front lines, since that is very physically demanding. What is physically demanding about sitting on a star ship all day?

16 hours ago, Francie said:

The show runners had the costumes be tight and a little small to keep wrinkles from forming.

That was one of the dumber ideas Roddenberry had. So they changed it not too far into the show.

[Ottis]

This entire episode had me reflecting on how Star Trek (and other shows) mirror real life society. And all the angst and “look at me, I’m different” around Picard telling Jack about the Borg was so … today … that it made me sick. If this same plot had played out on TNG in the 80s, everyone would have gotten together, stated the situation, and worked on a solution. Today? Like social media and the me, me, me that runs through everything, so much of this ep, and its sturm and drang, felt just unnecessary. Like you had to wait for the temper tantrums, self-pitying blame and “I’m special” to play out before meaningful things happened. It isn’t that it was done poorly. It’s that it reminds me that we are so much worse as a species today than we once were.

Also, having ALL of your ships in one place is stupid. The only good thing about Frontier Day is we made a drinking game out of it 4-5 eps ago… every time it was said.

LATE ADD: Also, I enjoyed the fact that not only were the younger crew members useless, they were actually the problem. Shades of the working world.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Ottis

[theredhead77]

On 4/13/2023 at 10:20 AM, greekmom said:

Well, I have been reading WW's Still Just a Geek and I liked Wesley *in a small voice*

If you're not reading the anointed version I highly recommend you pause and pick up that version.  Completely missed that you're already reading that version 

On 4/13/2023 at 10:29 AM, Affogato said:

Wesley was supposed to be relatable to young people, and a lot of people I've talked to have cited him as an inspiration for going into the sciences, so he seemed to work with his target audience.

 

On 4/13/2023 at 6:43 PM, Wyndsong said:

Also, Wesley Crusher was my first TV crush. I'm bummed Wil Wheaton wasn't involved in some way. I still don't quite understand what happened to his character--and I watched season two where it was supposedly explained. That was even more of a mess than this season. 

 

On 4/15/2023 at 3:50 PM, marinw said:

People were so cruel to Wil Wheaton during the original TNG run, some people HATED Wesley. And this was very early internet.

Wil (and Wesley) were one of my first childhood crushes. I started watching TNG because of Wesley and that show created a deep bond with my dad.

I'm so grateful Wil grew into a great human and shares his mental health journey including his adult retrospect on TNG, behind the scenes about how directors and others treated him. Adult me is so happy for adult Wil making peace with his past and finding his "found family" in the crew. The Ready Room for this episode made me cry.

On to the show:

I don't mind the show bringing us new characters. I like the character of Jack well enough and am invested in seeing what happens with the Borg Fleet and the Queen. Watching the crew realize the under-25 crew was about to be assimilated, and the background overlay of other ships being taken over was horrifying.

I'm really looking forward to next week. 

 

Edited April 16, 2023 by theredhead77

[Chit Chat]

2 hours ago, theredhead77 said:

I'm so grateful Wil grew into a great human and shares his mental health journey including his adult retrospect on TNG, behind the scenes about how directors and others treated him.

It made me sad to learn that he had some issues with directors on TNG.  I don't understand why they treated him like that.  It sounds like Jonathan Frakes has been a good friend to him, so for that, I'm happy that he's been so kind to Wil.

I loved seeing Wil on The Big Bang Theory too.  He did a really good job with his character on that show.

 

 

 

[rtms77]

On 4/15/2023 at 6:33 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Just because some random reviewer says it, doesn't make it true.

The episode states that the changelings put in that code into the transporter. Of course they had help from the Borg, but that's another matter.

The Changlings did not come up with the code, that was the Borg all along, playing the long game. They just used the Changlings to infiltrate and get Picards transporter pattern approved as the common human pattern , basically they help spread a virus.

[marinw]

10 hours ago, ChitChat said:

I loved seeing Wil on The Big Bang Theory too.  He did a really good job with his character on that show.

I enjoyed Will on TBBT too. Wil played himself, but did not self-parody.

[PurpleTentacle]

7 hours ago, rtms77 said:

The Changlings did not come up with the code, that was the Borg all along, playing the long game. They just used the Changlings to infiltrate and get Picards transporter pattern approved as the common human pattern , basically they help spread a virus.

Which is what I said.

[theredhead77]

4 hours ago, marinw said:

I enjoyed Will on TBBT too. Wil played himself, but did not self-parody.

In Still Just a Geek he said he was approached to play a "delightfully evil" version of himself. I loved him on TBBT, too.

 

15 hours ago, ChitChat said:

It made me sad to learn that he had some issues with directors on TNG.  I don't understand why they treated him like that.  It sounds like Jonathan Frakes has been a good friend to him, so for that, I'm happy that he's been so kind to Wil.

His "Space Dad" and he calls Gates his "Space Mom". The whole crew rallied around adult Wil. Frankly, after learning what he went through, I'm surprised he made it to adulthood alive, and without a substance abuse problem. Therapy (that he is very vocal about sharing) works. 

I really hope Wesley shows up in the last episode. I don't remember the Traveler storyline but if this next episode is truly, truly, the ending for TNG I want him there.

[PurpleTentacle]

17 hours ago, Ottis said:

This entire episode had me reflecting on how Star Trek (and other shows) mirror real life society. And all the angst and “look at me, I’m different” around Picard telling Jack about the Borg was so … today … that it made me sick. If this same plot had played out on TNG in the 80s, everyone would have gotten together, stated the situation, and worked on a solution. Today? Like social media and the me, me, me that runs through everything, so much of this ep, and its sturm and drang, felt just unnecessary. Like you had to wait for the temper tantrums, self-pitying blame and “I’m special” to play out before meaningful things happened. It isn’t that it was done poorly. It’s that it reminds me that we are so much worse as a species today than we once were.

I don't think TV reflects our current society or situation as a species. It reflects out of touch Hollywood writers, who are third generation in that industry. So they have never worked an average job and their parents have never worked an average job. Their grandparents might have waited tables, before they got their brake, but that was so long ago they don't remember. That is the problem when your industry is 90% nepo-babies.

As a gay man, let me tell you, most things are waaaaaay better than they were in the 80s and I think a big part of that is that we focus at least a bit more on individual rights than what the collective thinks is best (which tbh was pretty Borg-ish at times).

That doesn't mean that Starfleet officers shouldn't be competent and have a meeting on how to solve a problem. That's half my job as a social worker and I would expect that highly trained personal in any job can and has to do that on a regular basis. So I don't think that this skill has gone away in real society, it just vanished from TV.  Because again, you have to be a competent writer to write a competent character and there are very few competent writers left in Hollywood.

[tv-talk]

18 hours ago, Ottis said:

If this same plot had played out on TNG in the 80s, everyone would have gotten together, stated the situation, and worked on a solution. Today? Like social media and the me, me, me that runs through everything, so much of this ep, and its sturm and drang, felt just unnecessary. Like you had to wait for the temper tantrums, self-pitying blame and “I’m special” to play out before meaningful things happened.

How many old TNG eps was a central component some drawn out nonsense about Troi's feelings with regards to...blah, blah, blah. This episode did it too! So I'm not sure I can agree things were so much different previously, a central tenant to the show has always been the individualism of whoever the plot is arcing around at that moment, whether it be all of Data's various internal conflicts or whatever- that tendency has always been there for better and worse. The better I'd say is more character development than older shows including the original trek. 

 

As far as only people under 26 being assimilated- man, the writers really know who their audience is for this show! No pretense of trying to have a young gen take charge, just sticking with all the oldies again and again. And I love it, that's what this season was for, a delicious dip back into TNG that has really reminded me how special that show was in terms of the memories it gave me with family and friends waaaay back when. I cant lie, I teared up just a bit when they were on the bridge...

[paigow]

Is this all an elaborate stalker plot by The Borg Queen? The endgame: re-assimilating Locutus... Maybe emotion and irrationality have infected The Collective.

[theredhead77]

I found the "next next gen" (the Borg targets) to be highly competent which tracks for being a trained officer. They don't know everything when compared to Picard and Riker, that all comes with decades of experience. Of course they were "useless" once they were assimilated. 

Seeing all the ships in formation and hearing "We are Borg" was unsettling.

I don't see a scenario where "our crew" doesn't save the day but things look pretty bleak right now.

Edited April 17, 2023 by theredhead77

[paigow]

Now that the fleet is conveniently linked, Jeff Goldblum can introduce a 500 year old virus via iPhone that disables every ship...

[theredhead77]

37 minutes ago, paigow said:

Now that the fleet is conveniently linked, Jeff Goldblum can introduce a 500 year old virus via iPhone that disables every ship...

I'd be down for that universe expansion. 

[ML89]

I didn't think back in the first ep that I'd miss Captain Shaw but I do. I really hate that the one voice of reason is gone - him asking "what are we going to do exactly" was certainly on point, considering their backup was to go to the fleet museum. That would have been some real hilarity ensues.

Also, yeah, great that Raffi and Seven stayed behind when they could have all dragged Shaw with them and gotten out. Great plan. What I wouldn't give to have Hannibal Smith give them a few ideas of how a plan should come together...

None of these folks realizing that putting all the ships under one set of controls was a bad idea...huh. Either there were way more Changelings or nobody had ever had a network go down. Whoever referenced Battlestar Galactica upthread (can't find the post), A+ .

I really can't stand Jack but Troi running out of the room and everyone not telling him what was going on, I wouldn't have blamed him if he slugged Picard. That whole thing is a mess.

 

 

[paigow]

29 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

I'd be down for that universe expansion. 

With Will Smith cancelled... who would fly the iPhone into WiFi range? 

[ML89]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

With Will Smith cancelled... who would fly the iPhone into WiFi range? 

Well since Brent was in Independence Day...

[theredhead77]

5 minutes ago, paigow said:

With Will Smith cancelled... who would fly the iPhone into WiFi range? 

Dylan. Or, if we want to grow the universe further: Teal'c. 

Just now, ML89 said:

Well since Brent was in Independence Day...

Good point.

[Francie]

On 4/16/2023 at 7:59 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Considering Jack is 23, I don't know if we can trust our visual estimates on age. 

Much like somebody else's poor planning does not constitute my emergency, the showrunner's poor decisions and insulting casting or writing choices do not constitute a requirement that I engage in deliberate obtuseness. 

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

How many old TNG eps was a central component some drawn out nonsense about Troi's feelings with regards to...blah, blah, blah

Honestly, I’m going to go with zero.

Unpacking your post, the episodes that had Troi as a “central component” were typically ones dealing with her social life (Haven, the Price, Masterpiece Society, Second Changes, her mother episodes), or an alien assaulting or otherwise taking her over (the Child, Violations,  Man of the People). And then there’s the Loss and Face of the Enemy. The later is probably the one episode where Troi was allowed to shine. The former was designed to be an exploration into a sudden disability. None of those were simply about Troi’s empathic senses.*

Conversely, the PicardS3 ‘counseling’ by Troi was anything but actual counseling. That entire scene was designed as nothing more than a stretching out  and build up of the reveal of what was affecting Jack. There was no psychological analysis by Troi, as Troi’s empathic powers morphed into some sort of ability to see into his thoughts as visions. There was no point to her being there as a trained psychologist or as a diplomacy, first contact, or alien/human behavior expert. She was just the vessel for channeling this image. That whole revelation that the borg was behind this should have been a momentary reveal, somewhere around the 20-minute mark of a 45-60 minute story. The villain is revealed, act 1 is done, and then on to act 2 where the heroes rally to defeat the villain. Instead, it was 3 or so tortuous moments of Troi coaxing Jack to show her what was behind this metaphorical door. 

*And if your post is a reference all those moments where an alien would show up and Picard would ask what she sensed were appropriate plot checks—momentary check ins that sometimes assisted with the moving along the narrative, but often times were safeguards by the writers so as to not have a huge gaping plot hole (unlike PicardS3). I would argue those were never "drawn out" nor a "central component" to an episode.

5 hours ago, tv-talk said:

As far as only people under 26 being assimilated- man, the writers really know who their audience is for this show

I had the opposite reaction. We all know the Under26ers are going to be saved. Because LaForge's kids were assimilated. 

In the meantime, every being on that ship over the age of 25 not named Raffi or Seven or part of the original E-D crew was just brutally murdered. Unless there's a time travel solution, all those people will remain dead. And that seems a bit hostile to anyone over the age of 25. 

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

I really can't stand Jack but Troi running out of the room and everyone not telling him what was going on ... 

So, if Troi were a male, would the showrunners have written him as getting overly emotional and running out of the room? Just asking. 

How that scene with Troi telling Picard and Gates should have gone::

Troi: You'll never believe that I saw behind that door!

Picard [unfazed]: Was it the borg?

[simultaneously}

Gate [not looking up from some prop tricorder]: The borg? 

Troi [equally unimpressed]: Yes, of course it was the borg. Also, I put Jack in a stasis chamber with a forcefield to keep him from doing any harm. 

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Francie

[ML89]

34 minutes ago, Francie said:

 

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

I really can't stand Jack but Troi running out of the room and everyone not telling him what was going on ... 

So, if Troi were a male, would the showrunners have written him as getting overly emotional and running out of the room? Just asking. 

How that scene with Troi telling Picard and Gates should have gone::

Troi: You'll never believe that I saw behind that door!

Picard [unfazed]: Was it the borg?

[simultaneously}

Gate [not looking up from some prop tricorder]: The borg? 

Troi [equally unimpressed]: Yes, of course it was the borg. Also, I put Jack in a stasis chamber with a forcefield to keep him from doing any harm. 

Good question, re: Troi. Although they've drug this mystery out so long, I'm sure if it was Shaw who had found out, he'd've left the room to discuss it with someone else. They all should be sentenced to a remedial writers' course in pacing.

[rtms77]

11 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Which is what I said.

Lol sorry, it came out sounding like the Changlings created the code virus after they stole the body instead of the Borg.

5 hours ago, Francie said:

Much like somebody else's poor planning does not constitute my emergency, the showrunner's poor decisions and insulting casting or writing choices do not constitute a requirement that I engage in deliberate obtuseness. 

Honestly, I’m going to go with zero.

Unpacking your post, the episodes that had Troi as a “central component” were typically ones dealing with her social life (Haven, the Price, Masterpiece Society, Second Changes, her mother episodes), or an alien assaulting or otherwise taking her over (the Child, Violations,  Man of the People). And then there’s the Loss and Face of the Enemy. The later is probably the one episode where Troi was allowed to shine. The former was designed to be an exploration into a sudden disability. None of those were simply about Troi’s empathic senses.*

Conversely, the PicardS3 ‘counseling’ by Troi was anything but actual counseling. That entire scene was designed as nothing more than a stretching out  and build up of the reveal of what was affecting Jack. There was no psychological analysis by Troi, as Troi’s empathic powers morphed into some sort of ability to see into his thoughts as visions. There was no point to her being there as a trained psychologist or as a diplomacy, first contact, or alien/human behavior expert. She was just the vessel for channeling this image. That whole revelation that the borg were behind this should have been a momentary reveal, somewhere around the 20-minute mark of a 45-60 minute story. The villain is revealed, act 1 is done, and then on to act 2 where the heroes rally to defeat the villain. Instead, it was 3 or so tortuous moments of Troi coaxing Jack to show her what was behind this metaphorical door. 

*And if your post is a reference all those moments where an alien would show up and Picard would ask what she sensed were appropriate plot checks—momentary check ins that sometimes assisted with the moving along the narrative, but often times were safeguards by the writers so as to not have a huge gaping plot hole (unlike PicardS3). I would argue those were never a "central component." 

I had the opposite reaction. We all know the Under26ers are going to be saved. Because LaForge's kids were assimilated. 

In the meantime, every being on that ship over the age of 25 not named Raffi or Seven or part of the original E-D crew was just brutally murdered. Unless there's a time travel solution, all those people will remain dead. And that seems a bit hostile to anyone over the age of 25. 

So, if Troi were a male, would the showrunners have written him as getting overly emotional and running out of the room? Just asking. 

How that scene with Troi telling Picard and Gates should have gone::

Troi: You'll never believe that I saw behind that door!

Picard [unfazed]: Was it the borg?

[simultaneously}

Gate [not looking up from some prop tricorder]: The borg? 

Troi [equally unimpressed]: Yes, of course it was the borg. Also, I put Jack in a stasis chamber with a forcefield to keep him from doing any harm.

Troi never should have showed her hand. She should have cut it off , explain that what she saw was a security concern and then tell him she was informing the senior most Starfleet person of her report with Jack present. She would leave the room and put guards there and a force field on the door. Return with Picard and go from there. 
 

As well, given how many times people have telepathically taken over crews in Starfleet, why haven’t they developed something to block that. 

[Francie]

7 minutes ago, rtms77 said:

Troi never should have showed her hand. She should have cut it off , explain that what she saw was a security concern and then tell him she was informing the senior most Starfleet person of her report with Jack present. She would leave the room and put guards there and a force field on the door. Return with Picard and go from there. 

If the writing on this show were a sentient being, it'd be a turkey drowning in a puddle because it was too stupid to lift up its own head. 

[PurpleTentacle]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

6 hours ago, tv-talk said:

How many old TNG eps was a central component some drawn out nonsense about Troi's feelings with regards to...blah, blah, blah

Honestly, I’m going to go with zero.

That's probably true. Troi's feelings were usually so useless, everybody just ignored her.

She got some things to do in later seasons, but really never anything to do with her empathic powers. It seemed like the writers either didn't know what to do with them or didn't want to deal with them.

1 hour ago, Francie said:

So, if Troi were a male, would the showrunners have written him as getting overly emotional and running out of the room? Just asking. 

How that scene with Troi telling Picard and Gates should have gone::

Troi: You'll never believe that I saw behind that door!

Picard [unfazed]: Was it the borg?

[simultaneously}

Gate [not looking up from some prop tricorder]: The borg? 

Troi [equally unimpressed]: Yes, of course it was the borg. Also, I put Jack in a stasis chamber with a forcefield to keep him from doing any harm. 

"I mean, it's really dumb that it was the Changelings and the Borg working together, so you could be forgiven if you didn't see it coming, but after the Changelings were defeated an episode ago, there was really nobody else left it could have been! It's not like this is real life and so it could have been any other former enemy, like the Cardassians, who actually had ties to the Changelings. No, it had to be a bigger, bader enemy than the Changelings and that only leaves the Borg."

---

I also don't really get how anybody could think this was a good look for Troi. Like Marina Sirtis for example.

"I'm here with you Jack [..] I can feel your reluctance, your fear, but you're safe."

"Your truth is behind that door. Will you let me open it for you? I promise, whatever we might find there, you will not be alone."

5 seconds later

"I think I'll run out of here in a panic and leave you alone in a very distressed state, even though there is no immediate danger to me."

Worst... counselor... ever...

Edited April 17, 2023 by PurpleTentacle

[Chit Chat]

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

"I think I'll run out of here in a panic and leave you alone in a very distressed state, even though there is no immediate danger to me."

Worst... counselor... ever...

Excellent point (and funny!)  She goes running down the hall like Henny Penny yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling," but leaves Jack behind floundering like a fish gasping for air wondering what the hell is going on.  

[Ottis]

2 hours ago, Francie said:

That whole revelation that the borg was behind this should have been a momentary reveal, somewhere around the 20-minute mark of a 45-60 minute story. The villain is revealed, act 1 is done, and then on to act 2 where the heroes rally to defeat the villain. Instead, it was 3 or so tortuous moments of Troi coaxing Jack to show her what was behind this metaphorical door. 

Exactly. And as you note elsewhere, once she found out it was the Borg, Troi ran off like a drama queen, abandoning Jack (her patient, in this instance) in order to breathlessly say it's the Borg. Ugh. I remember a lot of time in the Ready Room in TNG, figuring out problems, and not so much various officers running off for attention. That's a reflection of who we are today.

8 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I don't think TV reflects our current society or situation as a species. It reflects out of touch Hollywood writers, who are third generation in that industry.

I very much think it does, writ broadly. I think essays have been written on this, even on Star Trek and its various series and how they reflected the times they were created in. But I also agree, and have posted several times in Picard seasons, with your point about the writers. My main issue with them, though, is they don't seem to know any better (or care). They leave stray pieces hanging, force illogical connections, etc. In season 2, it felt a lot like someone was pushing a very specific agenda around mental health that was out of place and awkward.

1 hour ago, PurpleTentacle said:

"Your truth is behind that door. Will you let me open it for you? I promise, whatever we might find there, you will not be alone."

5 seconds later

"I think I'll run out of here in a panic and leave you alone in a very distressed state, even though there is no immediate danger to me."

Like this perfect example. It's like the writers let their need and desire for personal (meaningless) drama outweigh accurate and professional behavior, because they wanted A Moment. I can buy into some of the fan service when it doesn't make sense, because it's in the service of making fans happy. 

 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

I'm sure if it was Shaw who had found out...

He would have run to the Holodeck, got drunk and told his Wolf-359 story to anyone there... even Vic Fontaine