Chit-Chat: What's On Your Mind Today?

[theredhead77]

1 hour ago, stewedsquash said:

I agree, it can be awful and you can’t just ghost ones you want to ghost. Eventually if the next generations keep moving forward things will progress, slowly. The immigrant culture is in a league of its own. My sons long time best friend is Honduran (he is a deputy and looks like Erik Estrada), he and his family are close to us and refer to my husband as Uncle his name and me as Mama my name.  Whoa the things, rules, whatever, that go on in his family, immediate and extended. His generation is changing slowly yet still hold on to those things.  He said if things aren’t followed his parents get shunned when they go back to Honduras for visits. 
Anyway, all that to say, yeah, I get what you talk about regarding your family and friends.

Disagree. This just feeds into enably the manipulative cycle because "family". Every culture has similar issues. It's not just an immigrant culture issue.

t's up to the adult child to define their own boundaries and what they are or aren't willing to tolerate because of bloodlines.

Edited August 13, 2023 by theredhead77

[PRgal]

8 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Disagree. This just feeds into enably the manipulative cycle because "family". Every culture has similar issues. It's not just an immigrant culture issue.

t's up to the adult child to define their own boundaries and what they are or aren't willing to tolerate because of bloodlines.

It doesn't work that way.  Read up on East Asian (and, from what I understand, South Asian) cultures.  And it sounds like Latin American cultures are like that too.  In my culture, everyone has a name based on generation, age, gender and whether you're a spouse or not. And which side of the family.  It can all be very confusing.  The most traditional may be offended if you call them by the incorrect title.  Just an example:

 

My mom is Poh Poh to my son because I'm his mom.  If I were a guy, he'd call my mother "Mah Mah" with a lower tone (while I'm Mah Mah with a higher tone).  He has no siblings, but he'd be Goh Goh to a younger sibling but Dai Dai (or Dee Dee) to a younger one.  Cousins?  Well, you're a cousin aunt or cousin uncle if you're your parent's direct first cousin.  Your mom's sister?  Yee.  Her husband?  Yee Jeung (basically translates to Aunt's Husband).  And so on and so on.  Less traditional people don't care and you're just Aunt or Uncle So-and-So.  Oh, and traditionalists don't address people by their given names.  So you don't call your brother by his name, but Elder or Younger Brother.  More than one older sibling?  It would be by their number.  Three boys and you're the youngest?  Oldest kid is Dai Goh, middle is Yee Goh and the baby is Dai Dai/Dee Dee.  Etc Etc

[nokat]

15 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

Disagree. This just feeds into enably the manipulative cycle because "family". Every culture has similar issues. It's not just an immigrant culture issue.

t's up to the adult child to define their own boundaries and what they are or aren't willing to tolerate because of bloodlines.

I'm trying with the boundaries. I set them down hard after a bit too much interference. It seems to be working for now. I think it is temporary.

[shapeshifter]

26 minutes ago, PRgal said:

In my culture, everyone has a name based on generation, age, gender and whether you're a spouse or not. And which side of the family.  It can all be very confusing.  The most traditional may be offended if you call them by the incorrect title.  Just an example:

My mom is Poh Poh to my son because I'm his mom.  If I were a guy, he'd call my mother "Mah Mah" with a lower tone (while I'm Mah Mah with a higher tone).  He has no siblings, but he'd be Goh Goh to a younger sibling but Dai Dai (or Dee Dee) to a younger one.  Cousins?  Well, you're a cousin aunt or cousin uncle if you're your parent's direct first cousin.  Your mom's sister?  Yee.  Her husband?  Yee Jeung (basically translates to Aunt's Husband).  And so on and so on.  Less traditional people don't care and you're just Aunt or Uncle So-and-So.  Oh, and traditionalists don't address people by their given names.  So you don't call your brother by his name, but Elder or Younger Brother.  More than one older sibling?  It would be by their number.  Three boys and you're the youngest?  Oldest kid is Dai Goh, middle is Yee Goh and the baby is Dai Dai/Dee Dee.  Etc Etc

Are there terms for steps and in-laws too? 
For instance: My daughter's husband's stepmom.  
She is just referred to by her first name, but if I mention her to someone outside the family who does not know her name, I have to pause and think before saying, for instance: 
"In addition to her mother-in-law and her sister-in-law, my daughter's step-mother-in-law and my daughter's step-sister-in-law will be at the baby shower too."

I suppose even if there is a specific term for a daughter's step-mother-in-law, it could take a moment for both the speaker and the listener to process the relationship.

Edited August 13, 2023 by shapeshifter

[theredhead77]

23 minutes ago, PRgal said:

It doesn't work that way.  Read up on East Asian (and, from what I understand, South Asian) cultures.  And it sounds like Latin American cultures are like that too.  In my culture, everyone has a name based on generation, age, gender and whether you're a spouse or not. And which side of the family.  It can all be very confusing.  The most traditional may be offended if you call them by the incorrect title.  Just an example:

 

My mom is Poh Poh to my son because I'm his mom.  If I were a guy, he'd call my mother "Mah Mah" with a lower tone (while I'm Mah Mah with a higher tone).  He has no siblings, but he'd be Goh Goh to a younger sibling but Dai Dai (or Dee Dee) to a younger one.  Cousins?  Well, you're a cousin aunt or cousin uncle if you're your parent's direct first cousin.  Your mom's sister?  Yee.  Her husband?  Yee Jeung (basically translates to Aunt's Husband).  And so on and so on.  Less traditional people don't care and you're just Aunt or Uncle So-and-So.  Oh, and traditionalists don't address people by their given names.  So you don't call your brother by his name, but Elder or Younger Brother.  More than one older sibling?  It would be by their number.  Three boys and you're the youngest?  Oldest kid is Dai Goh, middle is Yee Goh and the baby is Dai Dai/Dee Dee.  Etc Etc

I understand more than you think I do. Part of immigrating is merging old and new. All we're having here is a discussion. Not all advice applies to all situations.

One thing is for sure though - as an adult everyone who lives in a free country can make their own choices. No one is required to remain bound to toxic people or behaviors because of bloodlines or culture.

[stewedsquash]

@PRgal I can't remember the circumstances but I took a small course a looooooong time ago on writing Chinese, what the lines mean and how to use them. I don't remember any of it. It may have been in part of my shorthand course back in high school, since the teacher was very much into branching out beyond the scope.  I do remember (if I am remembering it correctly) that there are more "sounds than words" when speaking Chinese. So your low tone/higher tone example brought back memories of that course. 

 

 

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

I understand more than you think I do. Part of immigrating is merging old and new. All we're having here is a discussion. Not all advice applies to all situations.

One thing is for sure though - as an adult everyone who lives in a free country can make their own choices. No one is required to remain bound to toxic people or behaviors because of bloodlines or culture.

I understand that, but it's more challenging for some people to integrate than others.  It depends on language acquisition and how close the old culture is with the new.  You mentioned earlier that your family's Jewish.  I don't know when your family came, but since you're around my age (based on your handle, I'm guessing you were a 1977 baby?  I was born two years later), you're likely two or more generations removed from the old world (I'm assuming that your grandparents or great-grandparents were the ones who came here from abroad).  People like me are ONE.  As in my parents are immigrants.  Your family just had more time to adjust.  My family is already far more integrated than many others, simply because my parents came here speaking English and went to graduate school here.  They also worked outside of the Chinese community, so more exposure to mainstream cultures.  Therefore, they have a much better understanding of the "outside" (i.e. mainstream) world.  

 

ETA: @stewedsquash I honestly don't know how else to explain it!  There are videos on YouTube like this one.

Edited August 13, 2023 by PRgal

[nokat]

4 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I understand that, but it's more challenging for some people to integrate than others.  It depends on language acquisition and how close the old culture is with the new.  You mentioned earlier that your family's Jewish.  I don't know when your family came, but since you're around my age (based on your handle, I'm guessing you were a 1977 baby?  I was born two years later), you're likely two or more generations removed from the old world (I'm assuming that your grandparents or great-grandparents were the ones who came here from abroad).  People like me are ONE.  As in my parents are immigrants.  Your family just had more time to adjust.  My family is already far more integrated than many others, simply because my parents came here speaking English and went to graduate school here.  They also worked outside of the Chinese community, so more exposure to mainstream cultures.  Therefore, they have a much better understanding of the "outside" (i.e. mainstream) world.  

I'm third generation, with strong family ties. It is not easy to break, and if you do, everyone knows about it because of gossip. With my mom, the negative always traveled faster. 

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, nokat said:

I'm third generation, with strong family ties. It is not easy to break, and if you do, everyone knows about it because of gossip. With my mom, the negative always traveled faster. 

Yeah.  It's like that.  There's a vlogger family from Calgary, Alberta who talks about family issues all the time.  The husband is of Korean heritage and his wife is Sudanese and Filipino.  They've been married a few years and have three kids.  If I recall correctly, the guy's parents didn't even show up for the wedding and I think the woman's dad didn't either.  There was virtually no contact between the guy's parents and the family, despite living in town and it took until their THIRD CHILD, a boy (surprise, surprise...NOT), for them to sort of come around.  His mom still hasn't really visited, but the dad has.  It's DREADFUL.  

Edited August 13, 2023 by PRgal

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

I understand that, but it's more challenging for some people to integrate than others.  It depends on language acquisition and how close the old culture is with the new.  You mentioned earlier that your family's Jewish.  I don't know when your family came, but since you're around my age (based on your handle, I'm guessing you were a 1977 baby?  I was born two years later), you're likely two or more generations removed from the old world (I'm assuming that your grandparents or great-grandparents were the ones who came here from abroad).  People like me are ONE.  As in my parents are immigrants.  Your family just had more time to adjust.  My family is already far more integrated than many others, simply because my parents came here speaking English and went to graduate school here.  They also worked outside of the Chinese community, so more exposure to mainstream cultures.  Therefore, they have a much better understanding of the "outside" (i.e. mainstream) world.  

 

ETA: @stewedsquash I honestly don't know how else to explain it!  There are videos on YouTube like this one.

I never said it was easy nor will I get into a "culture-off" on the internet over who has it harder. It's not a competition and I don't play those games.

I feel bad that this derailed NoKat's initial request for advice on how to deal with toxic family. So to get that back on track...

My advice remains the same: a grown adult is not required to maintain relationships with toxic people because of bloodlines. IMO, minor children should be afforded that same option; however, more often than not, the adults enabling that toxic behavior will force the child to maintain that relationship because "family".
 

Edited August 13, 2023 by theredhead77

[peacheslatour]

Just now, theredhead77 said:

I never said it was easy nor will I get into a "culture-off" on the internet with who has it harder. 

I feel bad that this derailed NoKat's initial request for advice on how to deal with toxic family. So to get that back on track...

My advice remains the same: a grown adult is not required to maintain relationships with toxic people because of bloodlines. IMO, minor children should be afforded that same option; however, more often than not, the adults enabling that toxic behavior will force the child to maintain that relationship because "family".
 

I hope NoKat sticks to their guns. Families can make you crazy but if there is love, respect and consideration, there is nothing like it. Respect is paramount though. In my family, we all respected each other regardless of age. There was no hierarchy attached to chronological age.

[PRgal]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Are there terms for steps and in-laws too? 
For instance: My daughter's husband's stepmom.  
She is just referred to by her first name, but if I mention her to someone outside the family who does not know her name, I have to pause and think before saying, for instance: 
"In addition to her mother-in-law and her sister-in-law, my daughter's step-mother-in-law and my daughter's step-sister-in-law will be at the baby shower too."

I suppose even if there is a specific term for a daughter's step-mother-in-law, it could take a moment for both the speaker and the listener to process the relationship.

It's probably very specific for stepmother-in-law, but a stepmom is how mo, mo, being mother.  Stepdad is gai fu, fu, meaning father and I guess gai is the male equivalent of how?  This website gives some info.  Some relatives (such as cousin) aren't available since it depends on generation, gender and side of the family.  

16 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

I never said it was easy nor will I get into a "culture-off" on the internet over who has it harder. It's not a competition and I don't play those games.

I feel bad that this derailed NoKat's initial request for advice on how to deal with toxic family. So to get that back on track...

My advice remains the same: a grown adult is not required to maintain relationships with toxic people because of bloodlines. IMO, minor children should be afforded that same option; however, more often than not, the adults enabling that toxic behavior will force the child to maintain that relationship because "family".
 

And sometimes it's the parents/older generation who are shunning the younger.  See the Calgary family's YouTube channel (mentioned above) for reasons.

[Laura Holt]

18 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

IMO, minor children should be afforded that same option; however, more often than not, the adults enabling that toxic behavior will force the child to maintain that relationship because "family".

Fair point but it's also valid that learning to deal with toxic people is a skill that you can never learn too early.  Active avoidance isn't always realistic - in the workplace, especially if you deal with the public, as one example - and while in some families it could be called enabling, in others it could also be called learning coping mechanisms. Which is not a bad thing.

Edited August 13, 2023 by Laura Holt

[theredhead77]

4 minutes ago, Laura Holt said:

Fair point but it's also valid that learning to deal with toxic people is a skill that you can never learn too early.  Active avoidance isn't always realistic - if nowhere other than the workplace - and while in some families it could be called enabling, in others it could also be called learning coping mechanisms. Which is not a bad thing.

 Does the child feel uncomfortable around "Uncle Joe" or "Aunt Susan"? Why? Is the person a gruff jerk or are they racist/misogynistic/full of false information? Are they abusive and manipulative or passive-aggressive?

Forcing a child to endure a toxic family member to teach them coping mechanisms is unhealthy. If the person isn't someone you'd choose to be friends with, there is no reason to force a child to engage with them because "family".

20 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I hope NoKat sticks to their guns.

Same. People who have boundaries placed on them balk, play victim, get worse, etc... Then they will either grow as a person and respect the person's boundary, or not. 

It can be hard, especially when the rest of the family enables the poor behavior, or makes excuses for it. "Boys will be boys", "It's just how he was raised", "that 'good-ol'boy' behavior is just the culture from where he's from, he means no harm".

Edited August 13, 2023 by theredhead77

[PRgal]

37 minutes ago, theredhead77 said:

 Does the child feel uncomfortable around "Uncle Joe" or "Aunt Susan"? Why? Is the person a gruff jerk or are they racist/misogynistic/full of false information? Are they abusive and manipulative or passive-aggressive?

Forcing a child to endure a toxic family member to teach them coping mechanisms is unhealthy. If the person isn't someone you'd choose to be friends with, there is no reason to force a child to engage with them because "family".

Except that some cultures stigmatize mental health awareness more than others.  So they’re not even going to think about that.  Instead, it’s more about keeping things harmonious.

Edited August 13, 2023 by PRgal

[theredhead77]

1 minute ago, PRgal said:

Except that some cultures stigmatize mental health awareness more than others.  So they’re not even going to think about that.  Instead, it’s more about keeping things harmonious.

As I said upthread, not every solution is applicable to every situation and I also said that I am not one to go-along to get-along. In my opinion, if an adult is making a child uncomfortable there is no "keeping things harmonious" and forcing the child to be around a person who is making them uncomfortable.

It is up to the responsible adult to understand why the adult is making the child uncomfortable and make the hard choices to protect the child, even if it makes other relationships less than harmonious. It's up to the adults to break the cycle of manipulations and potential abuse.

[peacheslatour]

11 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Except that some cultures stigmatize mental health awareness more than others.  So they’re not even going to think about that.  Instead, it’s more about keeping things harmonious.

Let me ask you this. If a family member were abusing a child, either sexually, mentally or emotionally, would the family still care about harmony or would they step up and help the child and marginalize the abuser?

[Blergh]

Slightly ontopic for the mental health theme, I  recently came across a sign at my local supermarket chain I'm not entirely sure I agree with .  In summation, it said that no pets were to be allowed into the store- except for assistant and working pets (e.g. seeing eye dogs, allergy/seizure alert dogs,etc.) but then it explicitly stated that no 'emotional support pets' were allowed any more. Since I have allergies to dog and cat dander, I literally have no dog in this race. However, I'm wondering if a few Kardashian-wannabees carrying pooches in handbags as fashion accessories but attempting to claim them to be 'emotional support pets' might have soured the deal for ALL nonworking/non-assistant pets being allowed in the stores. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while some may have attempted  to stretch the definition of 'emotional support' to beyond the breaking point via wolfcrying, it doesn't entirely seem fair to those who truly DO need to have non-humans for emotional support accompanying them to the outside world!  Thoughts?

Edited August 13, 2023 by Blergh

[nokat]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

I hope NoKat sticks to their guns. Families can make you crazy but if there is love, respect and consideration, there is nothing like it. Respect is paramount though. In my family, we all respected each other regardless of age. There was no hierarchy attached to chronological age.

My family is there, when you need it. They can be nosy and too much there at times.  Through good and bad, they are there for you. Just sometimes they need to back away a bit.

50 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Let me ask you this. If a family member were abusing a child, either sexually, mentally or emotionally, would the family still care about harmony or would they step up and help the child and marginalize the abuser?

Spoiler

In my family, it was ignore and keep things quiet.

 

[peacheslatour]

12 minutes ago, Blergh said:

Slightly ontopic for the mental health theme, I  recently came across a sign at my local supermarket chain I'm not entirely sure I agree with .  In summation, it said that no pets were to be allowed into the store- except for assistant and working pets (e.g. seeing eye dogs, allergy/seizure alert dogs,etc.) but then it explicitly stated that no 'emotional support pets' were allowed any more. Since I have allergies to dog and cat dander, I literally have no dog in this race. However, I'm wondering if a few Kardashian-wannabees carrying pooches in handbags as fashion accessories but attempting to claim them to be 'emotional support pets' might have soured the deal for ALL nonworking/non-assistant pets being allowed in the stores. I guess what I'm trying to say is that while some may have attempted  to stretch the definition of 'emotional support' to beyond the breaking point via wolfcrying, it doesn't entirely seem fair to those who truly DO need to have non-humans for emotional support accompanying them to the outside world!  Thoughts?

I am of two minds. Yes, there are emotional support animals but there are also certifications for aide animals that you can get. Secondly, retail workers are not social workers, cops or even in management most of the time. Their jobs are to ring things up, help customers find things and keep the store tidy. It's an awful lot to ask of them to have to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

[nokat]

I'm using a spoiler as this may be triggering.

Spoiler

I was on a jury who put a sexual abuser in prison. It was one of the hardest things I've done to sit there and listen as I was very familiar with the damage it did to someone. 

 

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, theredhead77 said:

As I said upthread, not every solution is applicable to every situation and I also said that I am not one to go-along to get-along. In my opinion, if an adult is making a child uncomfortable there is no "keeping things harmonious" and forcing the child to be around a person who is making them uncomfortable.

It is up to the responsible adult to understand why the adult is making the child uncomfortable and make the hard choices to protect the child, even if it makes other relationships less than harmonious. It's up to the adults to break the cycle of manipulations and potential abuse.

That would be a different issue.  But in general, these people are more likely to judge a book by its cover, so to speak.  They don't seem to understand that true harmony includes what's inside.  I like to use baking as an analogy.  Is the batter too dry?  Add more wet ingredients.  Too wet?  More dry.  Sure, you'll have a bigger portion, but at least it'll have balance and bake properly.  

Here's a video of highlights from a talk I organized a few years ago.  The full hour-long discussion is here (if you want to watch it)

[nokat]

15 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Here's a video of highlights from a talk I organized a few years ago.  The full hour-long discussion is here (if you want to watch it)

Thank you for this. It helped me understand better.

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 hours ago, nokat said:

Has anyone noticed that their feet seem to continue growing? I used to be a 9, but I just ordered a 10.5. I do a lot of walking, but I'm starting to feel like I could leave foot prints in sand and freak people out.

Not me. Before my weight loss, I’ve been a 8.5 for many years. Well, since adulthood. Didn’t change during weight gain in between. What shocked me was losing “weight” in my feet! I’m now a size smaller!

8 hours ago, oliviabenson said:

Me. My feet keep getting wider. I wear men’s shoes since high school. My feet do not fit in women’s shoes at all. 

And clothes/bras keep being made smaller than before. 

It depends on where you buy the bras and clothes. I’ve gone done a size (cup still the same), but I haven’t had any problems finding my new size. Nordstrom is my go to since the custom shop that used to be next to my office shut down during the height of the pandemic.

7 hours ago, nokat said:

I've read that it's because they are being made in China, and people there are smaller.  Or it saves a few cents during manufacturing.

I think it depends where you shop. I remember reading here, pages back, suggestions for where you can get bras that fit.

My problem is finding a good tailor to help with taking in the suit pants and skirts I have and wore to trial back in May.

As for the current discussion today? I agree with @theredhead77. I’m of Indian (India) descent and I had to put up with a lot as a teen and young adult-because of my Mum’s “what will people/community think” attitude. I finally took a stand when going through my annulment. Well before that. I refused to stay married to the using and abusive bastard. And it took a family friend to point out to her, that I was their DAUGHTER. He was no one. For me to take the step I did, there had to be a good reason. For a long time, things were strained. I forgave eventually, but never forgot. And also refused to put up with my younger sister’s bullshit because I was older and she was the baby. I pointed out to my Mum telling me to be the bigger person/let it go/try to understand over the years, resulted in the obnoxious person that was her baby.

It’s been several years, but I finally have the respect I deserve. While we’ll never be close, there’s respect between me and my sister. And my cancer brought me closer to my Mum (I’ve always been close to my Papa), and understanding and boundaries. I have lots of cousins and aunts and uncles and great aunts and uncles. Some are/were from the villages, but THEY said “GOOD FOR HER” when my Mum went to India to tell them that I was ending my marriage. Why? Because they SAW how he treated me when my paternal grandpa had passed away. I know she expected them to say: “What do you expect from raising a child in America?” That, I think, more than anything, opened their eyes/blinders.

Sorry for the very long post.

Today? Went to my fave farm and got me some 🍑 and tomatoes 🍅!!!

 

[StatisticalOutlier]

43 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Yes, there are emotional support animals but there are also certifications for aide animals that you can get.

I'm not sure what certification you're referring to. 

The Americans with Disabilities Act is what requires public establishments to allow service dogs, and certification is never required for service dogs.  Emotional support dogs are not service dogs under the ADA, regardless of any certification they have. 

Businesses can allow anybody to bring any animal onto the premises, as long as it doesn't break a law (like the health code).  They have to let service dogs in, because of the ADA, but they don't have to let emotional support animals in, or pets.  But they can, if they want.  It's completely voluntary on their part.

So that dog you see in a store?  That's not because it has any right to be anywhere because it's an emotional support dog.  It's because the store chooses to allow that animal to be there. 

1 hour ago, Blergh said:

it doesn't entirely seem fair to those who truly DO need to have non-humans for emotional support accompanying them to the outside world!  Thoughts?

Not everybody gets to do everything they want, and sometimes it sucks. 

But I still remember the first time I grokked that somebody was doing the fake service dog thing--it was a little dog on a leash, wearing a service dog vest.  But it was jumping around and snapping at everybody and I thought, "That's not like any service dog I've ever seen." 

That's when I did a deep dive into the ADA and the emotional support animal certification industry.  The biggest complicating factor was airlines:  they were required to allow not only service animals, but emotional support animals as well, and they all flew for free.  You needed certification for your emotional support animal to show the airline, but surprise surprise there were online outfits that could provide you with the required therapist's letter, for a fee.

As you might imagine, abuse was rampant, and people got used to thinking that emotional support animal certification was a thing, without understanding it applied only to airlines.  Your certification means nothing at the grocery store.

Then a couple of years ago the government changed the law for airlines and they no longer have to treat emotional support animals the same way they treat service animals.  However, there is such a thing as a psychiatric service dog that does meet the definition of a service dog and surprise surprise there are online outfits that can get you a PSD letter that will allow you to fly with your dog for free. 

Also, there are different rules for housing; they can be required to allow emotional support animals even if they don't allow pets.

All of this makes for a muddied landscape, ripe for abuse.  Combine that with ignorance on the part of businesses, and fear of being sued, and you end up with people doing pretty much whatever they want.  Well, except for the people who don't like having to deal with pets in stores, or who are irritated by abuse of the law--they just have to suck it up. 

[peacheslatour]

Quote

I'm not sure what certification you're referring to. 

I was trying to be diplomatic. I'm not very good at it, I know.

[PRgal]

On clothing sizes:  for a long time, clothes just kept getting bigger and bigger.  As in a dress labelled side 6 in the 90s had the same proportions as a size 4 in the 2000s. Things have stayed fairly constant as of late, or even shrunk down.   And I don’t think it has to do with more things being manufacture in Asia since they’ve made clothes there for a long time.  Instead, I think it’s because more brands have expanded TO Asia and people there were complaining about things being too big/not being able to find anything!  I recall people here freaking out when some brands introduced size 00 and 000.  Well, it’s customer demand.  And they probably introduced the sizes globally because the clientele could be anywhere.  People travel and go to school abroad.  

[Bastet]

16 hours ago, nokat said:

Has anyone noticed that their feet seem to continue growing? I used to be a 9, but I just ordered a 10.5. I do a lot of walking, but I'm starting to feel like I could leave foot prints in sand and freak people out.

I took the middle age spread of the rest of my body in stride, but that it applied to my feet as well greatly annoyed me.  I used to wear a size 10 shoe, and now need either a 10 wide or an eleven regular.  Now, thankfully there are plenty of cute options in those sizes; I had large feet fairly early in life and back in the day options were limited.  It just annoys me that some of my favorite shoes no longer fit; with some, stretching worked, but not with others.

[nokat]

4 hours ago, PRgal said:

On clothing sizes:  for a long time, clothes just kept getting bigger and bigger.  As in a dress labelled side 6 in the 90s had the same proportions as a size 4 in the 2000s. Things have stayed fairly constant as of late, or even shrunk down.   And I don’t think it has to do with more things being manufacture in Asia since they’ve made clothes there for a long time.  Instead, I think it’s because more brands have expanded TO Asia and people there were complaining about things being too big/not being able to find anything!  I recall people here freaking out when some brands introduced size 00 and 000.  Well, it’s customer demand.  And they probably introduced the sizes globally because the clientele could be anywhere.  People travel and go to school abroad.  

It was so difficult for me to find tall sizes that I learned to sew. I got quite good at it. My want is a mannequin. 

[stewedsquash]

@GHScorpiosRule You @shapeshifter @StatisticalOutlier would have a number one podcast if you all teamed up for a show. Very interesting lives and the debates would be endless and peaceful with hilarious takes on life. 
 

It has gotten lost with the goalpost being moved but @PRgal isn’t saying you should have not left your husband. What you experienced with your mother is in line with what PRGal says happens. Not speaking for her but she is breaking the cycle like you, for herself and her husband and her kiddo. From my other post, the Honduran friends sister chose the wrong person in their parents eyes and it was tough but a cycle was broken. 

@Laura Holt perspective is great and she is not in anyway, nor is anyone else here, advocating for child abuse. Does moving goalposts so that people are reduced to “you want children to be abused” really win a discussion? It struck me in a good way that LauraHolt advocated for teaching coping skills. It is healthy to learn how to deal with what is thrown your way. That is what I think @nokat is searching for. If you (nokat) don’t want this person in your life you don’t have to have them. If you want to put boundaries, put them. But Laura’s advice about coping is really helpful for you. What is needed in your case and in a lot of others, is you figuring out how to be confident in your choices. If you are fretting over them that is bad for you not the other person. They don’t care, they are living while you fret. You can do this, in whatever way makes you comfortable. 


 

 

Edited August 14, 2023 by stewedsquash
Words wonky no likey

[nokat]

16 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

Let me ask you this. If a family member were abusing a child, either sexually, mentally or emotionally, would the family still care about harmony or would they step up and help the child and marginalize the abuser?

My family cared more about harmony. I just recently learned about more abuse happening then I realized. No one stood up for the children. This is why I made sure I could put at least one man in prison for what he did.

[EtheltoTillie]

On 8/13/2023 at 12:10 PM, shapeshifter said:

Are there terms for steps and in-laws too? 
For instance: My daughter's husband's stepmom.  
She is just referred to by her first name, but if I mention her to someone outside the family who does not know her name, I have to pause and think before saying, for instance: 
"In addition to her mother-in-law and her sister-in-law, my daughter's step-mother-in-law and my daughter's step-sister-in-law will be at the baby shower too."

I suppose even if there is a specific term for a daughter's step-mother-in-law, it could take a moment for both the speaker and the listener to process the relationship.

Step-machutunim?

Edited August 14, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

There definitely are cultural differences in family pressure.  It is at best naive to deny it in the name of progressive thinking.  And it can be hard to escape the pressures.  It's not easy to just say you're going your own way.  Some Hasidic Jewish sects, for example, exercise shunning pressures to make a family worry about the marriageability of their offspring if one member goes "off the derekh." 

In my family--the maternal side only--Ashkenazi Jews who arrived in the US in the early 20th century--there was a lot of pressure to live near the family and never do activities that didn't involve family.  There was such anxiety around this it was overwhelming.  I had to break out of this cycle in the early 70s when I was in college.  After sophomore year, I stayed on the college campus and got a job for the summer instead of returning "home."  I never returned "home" again after that.  During that summer my mother was devastated and my aunt (my mom's younger sister) called me constantly to berate me for "what I was doing to my mother."  This is the same sister I posted about recently who appeared on the Geraldo show with my mother talking about sibling rivalry. 

Edited August 14, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[PRgal]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

There definitely are cultural differences in family pressure.  It is at best naive to deny it in the name of progressive thinking.  And it can be hard to escape the pressures.  It's not easy to just say you're going your own way.  Some Hasidic Jewish sects, for example, exercise shunning pressures to make a family worry about the marriageability of their offspring if one member goes "off the derekh." 

In my family--the maternal side only--Ashkenazi Jews who arrived in the US in the early 20th century--there was a lot of pressure to live near the family and never do activities that didn't involve family.  There was such anxiety around this it was overwhelming.  I had to break out of this cycle in the early 70s when I was in college.  After sophomore year, I stayed on the college campus and got a job for the summer instead of returning "home."  I never returned "home" again after that.  During that summer my mother was devastated and my aunt (my mom's younger sister) called me constantly to berate me for "what I was doing to my mother."  This is the same sister I posted about recently who appeared on the Geraldo show with my mother talking about sibling rivalry. 

Good for you. :) 

My husband's mom kind of freaked when he first told his parents that he was seeing me, but she seemed to come around quickly.  Some people in his side of the family, especially in our generation, intermarried, including his sister.  I haven't converted, but I have more than a good understanding of the culture, and the family (at least his father's side) isn't all that observant anyway.  It's funny that no one in my family outwardly cares that I didn't marry someone who was not only Chinese, but of Hong Kong Chinese culture.  In fact, none of my cousins did.  I'm the only one with a non-Asian spouse, but everyone else married someone of a different background, ranging from mainland Chinese to Chinese from South Africa to Korean.  But there are still expectations.  And I still have zero clue how people REALLY think, especially because my son was carried by a gestational surrogate.  I'm not sure how many also know that he's donor conceived other than us and my sister-in-law.

[peacheslatour]

26 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Good for you. :) 

My husband's mom kind of freaked when he first told his parents that he was seeing me, but she seemed to come around quickly.  Some people in his side of the family, especially in our generation, intermarried, including his sister.  I haven't converted, but I have more than a good understanding of the culture, and the family (at least his father's side) isn't all that observant anyway.  It's funny that no one in my family outwardly cares that I didn't marry someone who was not only Chinese, but of Hong Kong Chinese culture.  In fact, none of my cousins did.  I'm the only one with a non-Asian spouse, but everyone else married someone of a different background, ranging from mainland Chinese to Chinese from South Africa to Korean.  But there are still expectations.  And I still have zero clue how people REALLY think, especially because my son was carried by a gestational surrogate.  I'm not sure how many also know that he's donor conceived other than us and my sister-in-law.

You seem to know all about this so I'm going to ask you. When I had my first flower shop, my number 1 assistant was Chinese (her American name was Renee) and we worked very well together, Her husband was fun and he liked to hang around the shop. Later I went on to manage a different flower shop and I brought her with me. They had a Korean woman working there and Renee took one look at her and quit on the spot. She told me she could not work with a Korean. Is that really a thing?

[EtheltoTillie]

My (Jewish) family had numerous intermarriages with Italians going back to the 1930s/40s.  No one practiced any religion, which is why this worked.  But frankly, this stood out at the time as unusual. 

[PRgal]

5 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

You seem to know all about this so I'm going to ask you. When I had my first flower shop, my number 1 assistant was Chinese (her American name was Renee) and we worked very well together, Her husband was fun and he liked to hang around the shop. Later I went on to manage a different flower shop and I brought her with me. They had a Korean woman working there and Renee took one look at her and quit on the spot. She told me she could not work with a Korean. Is that really a thing?

No idea.  Sounds like something political.  I think it might have to do with Renee thinking her new co-worker was inferior.  Historically, China influenced a lot of East Asia, including Confucianism.  

ETA:  @EtheltoTillie:  Italian/Jewish, huh?  Considering it's likely Catholic/Jewish, there must have been A LOT of guilt... #sorrynotsorry

Edited August 14, 2023 by PRgal

[Mondrianyone]

My mother was Jewish, and she wouldn't marry my Irish Catholic father unless he converted. Not because she was so religious, but her mother had been widowed young, and my mother felt it would kill her (typical dramatic exaggeration) if she married someone out of the religion. So my father, who as the youngest son of about a hundred children (I can exaggerate, too) was the designated priest, instead became a reluctant Jew. He didn't have to, as their children would've been Jewish anyway, since the religion travels through the mother, but he did. It was a pretty big sacrifice for him, in ways I won't specify, but since none of us stuck with our religion, he could've skipped the formalities. I look Irish, though I have a smart Jewish mouth.

[peacheslatour]

My parents and my husband's parents were all hard headed business people. Taking time off work for religious observance was an anathema to them.

[nokat]

I grew up in a protestant working class family. Married a Catholic from a better off family. Neither family was overly religious so it worked out okay. We had some lean years so the birthday and holiday checks were welcomed from his family. 

They welcomed me and never butted in, especially about the kids we chose not to have. There were some hurt feelings as we married in front of a Justice of the Peace with no big ceremony. 

[BlueSkies]

Changing the subject a little stuff like astronomy and ancient history never really interested me much now or when I was in school.  It’s not that I think they’re bad things to know it’s just I’m too intense and in the moment to give stuff like that much thought.  In school history just meant memorizing facts and names more than anything 

Edited August 14, 2023 by BlueSkies

[annzeepark914]

Ohhh kayyy...well, just an FYI that tomorrow is International Apostrophe Day! I checked over at the grammar thread (gulp!) but they're kinda quiet. So here's a little reminder about that pesky overhead comma 😁

[theredhead77]

2 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

My parents and my husband's parents were all hard headed business people. Taking time off work for religious observance was an anathema to them.

I will always be bitter that "Christian" holidays are paid holidays (in most corporate positions) while everyone else has to use PTO to celebrate their holidays. Yea, I know some areas like in NY close for the Jewish High Holidays but that's the exception.

I'm still extra bitter that my prior company when I was in GA made everyone use a floating holiday (company discretion) for Christmas Eve because "the South" while the area I came from in CA did not. You got both floating holidays to use how we want to.

[Calvada]

On 8/13/2023 at 11:18 PM, Bastet said:

I took the middle age spread of the rest of my body in stride, but that it applied to my feet as well greatly annoyed me.  I used to wear a size 10 shoe, and now need either a 10 wide or an eleven regular.  Now, thankfully there are plenty of cute options in those sizes; I had large feet fairly early in life and back in the day options were limited.  It just annoys me that some of my favorite shoes no longer fit; with some, stretching worked, but not with others.

I wore size 8 from age 13 to my late 40s then suddenly noticed that 8.5 fit better and then it was size 9. It seems to have stabilized at 9.  Last year I did a huge shoe purge. I had so many pairs that either didn't fit anymore or were a style I no longer wear, such as 3-inch pumps. I got rid of about 2 dozen pairs!  I still wear some size 8.5 (maybe they've stretched?) but any new purchase will be a 9.  At my age, the only shoes I buy are leather flats/loafers, walking shoes/sneakers, and supportive sandals.  

[isalicat]

I come from Ashkenazi Jews on both sides but my parents were both ardent atheists, believing that religion was a crutch for "weak people". They were wonderfully tolerant, however, and we went to the family Seder (mom's side) every year while my mom's parents were still alive. I was never bat mitzvahed though and spent my teen years investigating all the religious belief systems (a life long interest that dovetailed nicely into my academic life which was focused on the history of religion). When I was 16 my mom's mom was dying and asked me to promise that I would marry a Jew - I said "okay" without really thinking much about it, and what do you know, I did wind up marrying another Jewish person (he came from a very observant household, was bar mitzvahed and his cousin is a prominent rabbi in Boston). The irony of all of this, is after much intellectual and spiritual "journeying", I am now a Roman Catholic (spent 20 years as an Episcopalian, been a very involved Catholic for almost 30 years) and my husband practiced Tibetan Buddhism for a while and then finished up as a Hindu before he died. We raised our son mostly as a Catholic but he went to Hindu stuff too and now he practices Hinduism. So you never know! Thanks for letting me share....😺

[PRgal]

@isalicat:  I went the other way...sort of.  Baptized Catholic as a child, went to a Catholic school, but after two incidents, decided I didn't want to be Catholic again.

The first:  Asked my teacher why there weren't any women priests/why they couldn't be priests and didn't like the answer

2. We didn't get UNICEF boxes one Halloween and the teacher said it had to do with the UN and their views of contraceptives and abortion.  

[annzeepark914]

Well, I needed a break from current events and went to Prime and found Nightmare from Hee Haw.  Now?  I feel better!  Love Daddy Jones and his handsome sons. And so, once again the Designing Women shudda listened to Suzanne.  She warned them 😁

[PRgal]

6 minutes ago, annzeepark914 said:

Well, I needed a break from current events and went to Prime and found Nightmare from Hee Haw.  Now?  I feel better!  Love Daddy Jones and his handsome sons. And so, once again the Designing Women shudda listened to Suzanne.  She warned them 😁

Speaking of Prime, I just saw "Red, White and Royal Blue."  TBH, it was kind of lame (predictable rom-com...only difference is it's LGBT).  I know there's a thread for it on the movie boards, so maybe I'll take it there. :)  But I just needed a break from all that serious stuff too. 

[isalicat]

5 hours ago, PRgal said:

@isalicat:  I went the other way...sort of.  Baptized Catholic as a child, went to a Catholic school, but after two incidents, decided I didn't want to be Catholic again.

The first:  Asked my teacher why there weren't any women priests/why they couldn't be priests and didn't like the answer

2. We didn't get UNICEF boxes one Halloween and the teacher said it had to do with the UN and their views of contraceptives and abortion.  

I would love to dialog with you about those issues (and/or anyone and everyone as this is pretty much my favorite subject: religions and why people believe what they do....) but there isn't a forum for that here 😸

Nonetheless I hope you found a belief system that works for you.

[Bastet]

6 hours ago, PRgal said:

We didn't get UNICEF boxes one Halloween and the teacher said it had to do with the UN and their views of contraceptives and abortion. 

In other words, the UN understanding access as fundamental to women's human rights and gender equality.  It's hard to fathom any group devoting itself so fiercely to controlling women's reproductive systems, let alone one controlled by men -- specifically men who aren't allowed to have anything to do with women's reproductive systems.

I disbelieve most religions equally, but, hoo boy, does my disgust with each of them vary based on what they preach.

(It's odd religion isn't a subject specific enough to require its own thread, like pets and health, but so long as it's considered chit chat, that's my chat.)

6 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

Love Daddy Jones and his handsome sons.

Now that is not a description you'll hear every day.  I bet Nub the family gynecologist - impressive, since he only finished third grade - would be particularly pleased.  He could brag to his daughter Female (Feh-mall-ay) Jones, as the hospital helpfully named her.