Going Out With a Whimper: Season 7 Discussion

[Simba122504]

On 8/5/2023 at 8:16 AM, Affogato said:

I think the show makes it obvious that the idealized fifties is just that, you constantly circle back to reality in the show. 

This series is not smart. It is the dumbest kid in the class with some serious issues thrown in that needs professional treatment. 

[StewieGriffin]

It all ends tonight.  I'm probably gonna be tearing up at the end after watching 7 years of all this whackiness.

[AnimeMania]

S07.E20: Chapter One Hundred and Thirty-Seven: Goodbye, Riverdale

(Series Finale)

NOW LEAVING RIVERDALE — Back in present day and longing for her former life in Riverdale, 86-year-old Betty (Lili Reinhart) turns to a special friend to help her relive her last day of senior year with her friends as they were, their memories restored.

Premiere Date: Wednesday, August 23, 2023    9pm    CW 

[Bill1978]

I'm going to assume the reasons why 86 year old Betty wants to reminisce about the past is because

a) She is on her deathbed or

b) She is the only one of the gang still alive or

c) Both

 

[Affogato]

10 minutes ago, Bill1978 said:

I'm going to assume the reasons why 86 year old Betty wants to reminisce about the past is because

a) She is on her deathbed or

b) She is the only one of the gang still alive or

c) Both

 

Or her great granddaughter is graduating from highschool or she came across that first copy of her book.  Or maybe it is Thursday. We'll see. She qsks q 'special friend' for help, though. 

 

 

[PositiveBean]

Spoiler

So I guess no Bughead? Or Varchie. Or Barchie. Or Beronica. Well it kind of is? It turns out that in high school they became a foursome. 🤣 I’m not making this up. 

 

[Bill1978]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

She qsks q 'special friend' for help, though. 

That has to be Angel Tabitha, who obviously has not aged a day.

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

Or maybe it is Thursday.

I seriously am hoping it is something super random that makes her want to remember 1955, but still WTH? Like she is out getting milk and walks past a person who looks like Jason Blossom.

[StewieGriffin]

That felt like the saddest most depressing hour of Television I've ever watched.  Not saying it was bad but damn.

[thuganomics85]

At last!  After seven (some of them kind of long) seasons, this Crazy Train has finally come to a stop.  And, apparently, I must have either had my expectations way too low, I'm just a big sap, or I just have given up and embraced the insanity, because I actually kind of thought this worked in it's own weird way.  Even got teary-eyed during one or two or three moments.  Teary-eyed!  With Riverdale!!  What the hell is going on, here?!!!

So, after all of the various pairings and shipping wars, none of the Core Four actually end up together.  I can see that causing some debates, but I actually kind of liked that reveal and it's almost strangely realistic for this show.  A lot; if not most; high school romances usually tend to not make the distance, and considering where everyone is and where they all went, it makes sense that the four would kind of go their separate ways and never rekindle the flames.  While I'm sure what each paring felt was real and the love and feelings for one another where always there, it was just hot going to last with the way their paths diverged.  I don't know, I can roll with it.

Of course, I loved the reveal that once they got their memories back, the Core Four just said "Screw it!" and officially made themselves a quad with partner swapping and what not.  Mainly, at least.  Noticed there was no hint of Archie and Jughead being a thing.  Granted, there never was a hint of that before, but I wouldn't have put it past this show.  But my favorite part was Reggie finding out and being disappointed he didn't get to join in.  Charles Melton's face/reaction slayed me there.  Reggie just wants to be loved!

And, of course, not only did they all thrive but were the best of the best!  Veronica not only succeeds in Hollywood but has two Oscars!!  Jughead basically creates M.A.D. Magazine (for a second, I thought they would just stay the comic book route and make him Stan Lee.)  Betty creates... Glamour Magazine, I think?  And then there's Archie being all normal by having a family and happily working construction, while being an amateur poet.  What a rebel!

At least Kevin/Clay and Cheryl/Toni made it and had long and happy lives.  Like I saw on another thread, I was really worried they were going to try and do something like have either Kevin or Clay suddenly die of A.I.D.S., so I'm glad they avoided that cliche.

Poor Fangs got screwed over though.  Successful record and a happy wife and child, only to die young due to a bus accident.

Cracked up over how Archie's final poem was just a 4th-wall breaking slam.  Had everything from mentioning the "highs and lows of football" meme, to Cheryl chilling with Jason's corpse (loved that Cheryl laughed, but Toni had a "Babe, that actually wasn't cute at all!" look), to all of the jobs Veronica was doing at one point or another, all the way to the Dark Betty days!  Only disappointment was him just referencing Kevin's "cruising in the woods" days, because if you are taking the piss out of Kevin, the correct choice is to always to talk about how there was never a cult Kevin wouldn't join! 

If what we were seeing is real though, I question the afterlife being them remaining 17 and being in Pop's Diner for eternity.  Yeah, I guess it would be happy on some levels, but does that mean they won't see their parents or other loved ones again?  I don't want to believe Archie would never get to see Fred again.  But I guess I really should think too hard about that entire thing.

Well, it's been one hell of a ride, Riverdale.  I've certainly haven't kept it a secret that you could be ridiculous to just flat-out bad at times with your nonstop soapy drama, random pairings and swapping amongst the couples, your cults, your murders, your evil D&D games, time-travel, multiverses, bear attacks, mobster mayors, teenage rum queens, Archie holding down three jobs while still attending school, Jugehead being abducted by aliens (kind of), evil boarding schools, Chad Michael Murray on a rocket, pretty much fighting the actual devil, and... well, just everything involving Cheryl and the rest of the Blossom kin.  And, yet, I can safely say that I never once considered jumping ship because I always wanted to see what in the hell it was going to do next.  That has to count for someone in this day and age.  And I still maintain that the ensemble was generally great and at times single-handily salvaged some of the material here.  Certainly hope move onto (better) things soon.  In the end, I can't lie: I will miss this ball of crazy and in some ways, television should won't be the same without shows like this that just go completely nuts and truly don't leave anything off the table.  You will always have a place in my heart, Riverdale!

That being said, next time he creates or runs a show, maybe Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa lays off some of the drugs next go around or switches to new ones for the sake of his career.  And maybe take a few cold showers or two to make him realize he doesn't always have to make his attractive cast strip down or do other weird sexual stuff for whatever fan fiction he initially dreamt up.  Just a thought!

[Chicago Redshirt]

For what it was, it mostly worked. I wished they could have thrown a bone to tell us about the fates of Ethel, real Tabitha and Dilton, even if it was just a line. 

Or about some of the adults besides Mary and Alice. Like did Hiram and Hermione regain their stardom, or reconcile with their daughter? Did the divorce from Alice turn Hal into a serial killer? 

I guess I don't really care about Julian's fate, but as long as they had him in the episode, why not? 

As long as they were going for schmaltz, why not have them at least remain friends to the end? 

[the-grey-lady]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

For what it was, it mostly worked. I wished they could have thrown a bone to tell us about the fates of Ethel, real Tabitha and Dilton, even if it was just a line. 

They told us last episode that 50s/real Tabitha moves to Chicago and becomes an activist. Agree I would have liked to have heard about the others.

[Ms Lark]

4 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Betty creates... Glamour Magazine, I think?

Ms magazine. She's Gloria Steinem, a front runner in women's liberation. Far cry from Glamour, sorry. I half expected them to mention working at a Playboy Club for her big expose on sexism. I'm old, I was around then. I bought Ms as long as it ran. We had to fight really, really hard just to use the title Ms. (*coughcough*) Brava Ms. Cooper.

I enjoyed the ending, but I only watched the first 2.5 seasons before I bailed. I definitely wasn't the target audience, even though I read "Archie" comics as a girl in the late 50s early 60s. More a Betty fan than Veronica.

Did pop in to check out the retro 50s episodes, but they weren't really working for me, so dropped it again. Watched the last couple of episodes to get ready for the finale. Funnily, this worked for me since I missed all the bizarre stuff that drove me away. It felt like they borrowed a page from the Six Feet Under finale (one of the very best) and wrapped up all the lives nicely. Dance on, kids, dance on.

p.s. Archie, Betty, Veronica, and Jughead coming out as a quad was hysterical and made total sense, although a little early for the time. 😆 Archie as an "amateur poet" was pretty good, too.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

As long as they were going for schmaltz, why not have them at least remain friends to the end? 

Given that they now remember they lived through adulthood together in Riverdale in the 2010s-2020s (while managing not to scatter the way they reportedly did in the 50s, I'll add, at least not for long), experienced all kinds of mundane and paranormal adventures, and got sent back in time to go through high school a second time, I find them not keeping in touch their entire lives unlikely. Like the ending of Amphibia, a "people drift apart after school" message is undermined when they've experienced certain things together that make it unrealistic for that to happen (which is why the finale of The Owl House was such an improvement on that one).

Especially when you consider that Betty, Jughead, Veronica, Toni, Cheryl, Kevin and Clay all became luminaries in fields related to art/media/publishing, there would be plenty of call for them to collaborate with their old friends. Also, it would have made sense to take advantage of their knowledge of how society will develop culturally and technologically in the future.

And of course the subplot about Baby Tony being immortal and "the future" is cut off because he's not even born in this timeline.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[ruby24]

The quad thing gets the show out of having to make a decision, not Betty.

And no one wanted or ever asked for Veronica and Jughead, so if she was going back and forth between boys it really should have been Archie and Reggie, her two main love interests throughout the series.

[Chicago Redshirt]

Yeah, the show downplayed if the characters resisted the temptation to use their personal knowledge of the future they had come from to make the world a better place or enrich themselves or if they just sat on their hands knowing that the Kennedys and MLK would be assassinated, Vietnam would be a disaster etc etc. Like how tough would it be to be a bigshot movie producer when you know (or should have some memory, at least)of what 50s and 60s movies and stars turned out to be big hits in your timeline? Just lock in random undiscovered people like Dustin Hoffman and Robert Redford to longterm contracts and watch the money roll in. Or does their future knowledge only extend to their personal lives?

To touch on the various characters' fates:

Archie: if the idea was seeing the Pacific Ocean made him not want to leave California, why would he settle in Modesto? Did they just want some place that had the a small-town vibe? They probably could have thrown a dart at a number of cities in California that might have made more sense.

Reggie: Kinda sad that he went from being a pro basketball player to a high school coach. But I guess it's fair that the 50s and 60s NBA is nothing like ours. One would think, though, even after a few years in the pros he would have made enough money that he wouldn't have to personally work his folks' farm.

Fangs/Midge: Kinda sad that the powers that be gave Bargain-Basement Ritchie Valens the same sort of fate that the real one got, and that he had the only negative ending. Kind of sad that Midge didn't have enough of a character to get anything more of an ever-after than "she and their kid could live comfortably for the rest of their lives on Fangs' two hits." Which probably in as crazy a world as Riverdale was, is probably the least believable thing the show has tried to establish. I will take shady cults or otherdimensional superbeings over the notion that royalties given a teen rock star in the 50s would provide enough income for two people to live on. 

Jughead: So he published the original Sabrina and became William E. Gaines and made Mad. Like he said, not a bad legacy, but one would have thought that he would have engaged in at least some more highbrow stuff.  BTW, was the Jughead who was shepherding Old Betty around supposed to be an angel, a ghostly version of the Jughead we've been watching for seven seasons, a plot device or what? (And the answer could just be "yes.")

The Quad: Did they downplay the possibility of a Jarchie side to it? It would have been nice to have been told why they didn't make it a pentagon. Both Betty and Veronica had been interested in Reggie, and presumably Veronica retained memories of having dated Reggie. And of course, they teased us with the Archie-Reggie bromance possibly becoming a romance and explicitly had Archie and Reggie have a MFM threesome after which Archie said he loved Reggie. As described, they didn't seem to ever have threesomes or all four hooking up at once, which, if you'll excuse the pun, seems pretty square. 

Finally, it seems like the show was affected by behind-the-scenes drama among its actors. Is there a story or website that sums up exactly what that was, or can someone do that for me?

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:02 AM, rmontro said:

I could be wrong about this, but I thought the author's name of The Comet, "W.E.B." Daubs, was a reference to Spider-Man #96 in 1971, where Stan Lee chose to run the issue without the  comics code authority approval.  The story was about Peter's friend Harry having a drug overdose.  I thought that entire storyline was based on that.

W.E.B. DuBois is a well-known Black writer, who in fact wrote a short story called "The Comet," which apparently is as the show described a short story about a Black man and a White woman surviving a catastrophe. Haven't read it, but may seek it out.

No connection to Spider-Man or the Comic Code Authority was likely intended.

[Moxie Cat]

11 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

It felt like they borrowed a page from the Six Feet Under finale (one of the very best)

SFU inspired this for sure - but the ending was straight up Titanic, right down to Jason Blossom holding the door open for Betty. I half-expected everyone in the diner to start clapping.

Darn it all if this episode didn't make me tear up numerous times - so well done, Riverdale. And kudos to Lili, who hit it out of the park. 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Moxie Cat

[AnimeMania]

Riverdale Finale’s Deleted Scenes Reveal a Grim Fate for Several Characters

The CW has released an extended version of the finale (now available to stream at cwtv.com and on the CW app), which contains several minutes of deleted scenes, including one that reveals the fate of a number of key characters.

[rmontro]

Call me old fashioned, but I thought the idea of Betty, Veronica, Archie, and Jughead having a "quad" was rather disgusting.  They never said Archie and Jughead got together though.  Of course, never said they didn't.

That aside, an appropriate tear jerky ending to the series, a few quibbles aside.  Considering many of them lived very happy, successful, fulfilled adult lives, I'm not sure why they would want to live out their afterlife back in Riverdale as high school juniors.  Although Pop's diner seems like a nice fill in for heaven.  

Why were there two ghost Jugheads?  As he walked off, there were typewriter sounds, maybe the suggestion was that he was the author writing the whole thing, while character Jughead sipped on a soda inside.

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

W.E.B. DuBois is a well-known Black writer, who in fact wrote a short story called "The Comet," which apparently is as the show described a short story about a Black man and a White woman surviving a catastrophe. Haven't read it, but may seek it out.

No connection to Spider-Man or the Comic Code Authority was likely intended.

Okay, I'm stupid.  I still think the Spider-Man incident might have inspired the story, even though I was off base about the author's name.

[Chicago Redshirt]

11 minutes ago, rmontro said:

Call me old fashioned, but I thought the idea of Betty, Veronica, Archie, and Jughead having a "quad" was rather disgusting.  They never said Archie and Jughead got together though.  Of course, never said they didn't.

OK, I'll bite. Why "rather disgusting"?

It seems healthier than the traditional Archie dithering between Betty and Veronica and the ensuing catfights that came with it. 

[rmontro]

2 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

OK, I'll bite. Why "rather disgusting"?

It seems healthier than the traditional Archie dithering between Betty and Veronica and the ensuing catfights that came with it. 

If you don't think so, no amount of talk on my part is going to explain it to you.

[Affogato]

4 hours ago, ruby24 said:

The quad thing gets the show out of having to make a decision, not Betty.

And no one wanted or ever asked for Veronica and Jughead, so if she was going back and forth between boys it really should have been Archie and Reggie, her two main love interests throughout the series.

The comics never makes a decision and there was no reason to assume the show would make a decision.  I think they were always going to ship everyone with everyone. It is a highschool evening at Pops, not a long term romance.

Edited August 24, 2023 by Affogato

[Affogato]

Happy Days, people! Pops was the afterlife in another story and that was a sweet ending. It was moving, as they drove through Riverdale, that it was abandoned. Tumbleweeds in front of the Babylonium!

Poor Fangs, in this universe the plane probably flew to its destination and the bus blew a tire and crashed. I hope Midge found someone else, eventually.

That moment when the four of them are sitting together in a circle and Betty talks in show about real life, and I'm sure she is, is a great moment on every level.

I'm sure that this is a story Jughead is writing and he is also a character.  Chic murdering Frank and Sheriff Keller was a good authorial touch. I wondered, when 'Kevin's mother' was mentioned and not his father.

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Affogato

[Chicago Redshirt]

46 minutes ago, rmontro said:

If you don't think so, no amount of talk on my part is going to explain it to you.

I might not (and probably won't) agree, but explaining what you find disgusting about it should be straightforward.

[rmontro]

19 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I might not (and probably won't) agree, but explaining what you find disgusting about it should be straightforward.

As I said in my post, I am old fashioned, and I am not a fan of these polyamorous situations, especially in a group of friends like that.  Obviously, you're fine with it, so you won't agree.

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

As I said in my post, I am old fashioned, and I am not a fan of these polyamorous situations, especially in a group of friends like that.  Obviously, you're fine with it, so you won't agree.

'Not fond of' it is a fair distance from your original 'disgusting'. One is a personal opinion, you are entitled, and the other a judgement. 

[rmontro]

30 minutes ago, Affogato said:

'Not fond of' it is a fair distance from your original 'disgusting'. One is a personal opinion, you are entitled, and the other a judgement. 

I was, and am, disgusted by it.  Call it what you will, they're not real people.  But it's emblematic of the lack of sexual morals in the culture, and the "anything goes" attitude prevalent today.  Sexual responsibility is a thing, and there can be consequences for promiscuity.  Especially in the '50s, which was before the Pill was approved.  If it wasn't for Superman and Lois, I'd probably be done with the CW, and happier for it.

[Quark]

If this season had actually been built on all six previous seasons, the finale would have been so much stronger. It was pretty meh as a result.

Having said that, I will miss this very crazy show and it's very attractive cast.

[Bill1978]

4 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

The CW has released an extended version of the finale (now available to stream at cwtv.com and on the CW app), which contains several minutes of deleted scenes, including one that reveals the fate of a number of key characters.

I'll be back later to share my thoughts on the finale, but just popped in to say I clocked on the link to read about the deleted scenes and to my surprise I had seen those scenes. Seems Netflix Australia showed the extended version right off the bat, that would explain the 50 minute run time. And even with the extended scenes, they still didn't have time to tell us what happened to Dilton.

[SourK]

I really feel like they could have set this up so that Angel Tabitha had to tell the future to young Betty for some reason instead of making it so old Betty has to become young Betty and then not remember what happened after the previous episode.

Anyway.

I was confused about why Reggie wasn't part of their poly utopia, since three of them were attracted to him already.

I laughed when Archie tried to say something nice to Betty about how they might end up together, and she was like, "No, Archie, you're going to move to California and die an old man." Like, imagine that from his POV, where he doesn't know she's a time traveler and he just thinks she's being weird.

I literally don't care about the thing where they tell us everyone lived an awesome life, because I don't feel super invested, but I liked the scene where Archie read the poem because people's reactions looked genuine, and I couldn't tell if it was the actors being emotional about the end of the show or the characters.

I'm excited to see what these people do next now that they're finally free.

[Dobian]

So a sweet, weepy, Betty-centric finale.  Given that this has always been an ensemble show, it felt a little odd having the final episode be from the POV of one character.  But narratively, it does work.  All of them ended up having great lives, except Fangs, of course.  He ended up becoming Riverdale's Ritchie Valens.  Jughead starting "MAD" Magazine was fun, as well as Betty dressed up all Mod Squad in the editorial room of her magazine in the late 60s.

I agree that the foursome was forced because of the Veronica/Jughead pairing.  That whole relationship was totally contrived and baseless, and everyone knows she had a genuine history with Reggie that was completely ignored.  It would have been much more authentic if she and Reggie had a reconciliation scene after they got their memories back, and let him be the fourth person.  Especially given his strong bond with Archie.  Jughead already had a heavy presence in the final episode being the narrator and Betty's angel guide.

I also agree about how this group would not have fallen out of touch over the years given all the monumentally crazy shit they had gone through together in Riverdale.

But nitpicks aside, the finale was a fitting epilogue that hit the all right emotional notes.  So long, Riverdale.  You will always sit alongside Gotham as two of the nuttiest guilty pleasures I have ever watched.

Quote

And even with the extended scenes, they still didn't have time to tell us what happened to Dilton.

@Bill1978 Why, he became a porn star of course!

Edited August 25, 2023 by Dobian

[the-grey-lady]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

I agree that the foursome was forced because of the Veronica/Jughead pairing.

It's obvious the show introduced the Veronica/Jughead pairing just to facilitate a core 4some. 

No way would they have been interested in each other, not once they had their memories.

[memememe76]

The ending was very reminiscent of Lost where those characters united in a Church. I was quite moved by this finale and think this season is the second best of the series. They lucked out with how good the cast is. 
 

This is probably the last network tv shows with huge ass seasons that I will ever watch. The sheer quantity of episodes make me quite attached to the characters. The older I get, the sadder I become whenever I end anything.

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, memememe76 said:

The ending was very reminiscent of Lost where those characters united in a Church. I was quite moved by this finale and think this season is the second best of the series. They lucked out with how good the cast is. 
 

This is probably the last network tv shows with huge ass seasons that I will ever watch. The sheer quantity of episodes make me quite attached to the characters. The older I get, the sadder I become whenever I end anything.

I think what really happened is that Betty, whose memory is failing, reads Jughead's obituary and leafs through her old, unsigned yearbook. When she dozes off she has a dream about Jughead coming to her as an angel, similar to
Tabitha, and taking her back to get her yearbook signed. She has kept in contact with some people, she clearly had contact with Kevin and Clay for a while, and Jughead's telling her what happened are probably her memories of what happened. For those who think Veronica should have been in a foursome with Reggie, this is Betty's dream and Jughead was her boyfriend for a long time, in highschool measurements. The next day she tours Riverdale with her granddaughter, dozes off and has a dream of going to Pop's as she passes painlessly from her life. It was handled much better than Lost was handled, and we can all pretend that it is real and somewhere forever the gang, they are having burgers and rocking out in a diner in the sky.

It is a pretty happy ending, all in all. Everybody happily dead and together is less jarring to my separation anxiety than friends going across the country and losing track of each other. I mean, clearly that happens, and happened here, but since they all come together, it is fixed.

I think the long shows and the relationships we form with the characters is the great strength of television. So many 8 episode miniseries are really movies with filler.

 

[rmontro]

15 hours ago, SourK said:

I liked the scene where Archie read the poem because people's reactions looked genuine, and I couldn't tell if it was the actors being emotional about the end of the show or the characters.

I thought the poem was really cheesy, and showed why Archie never became a famous poet.  But you make a good point about the reaction of the actors/characters.

 

12 hours ago, Dobian said:

So long, Riverdale.  You will always sit alongside Gotham as two of the nuttiest guilty pleasures I have ever watched.

Guilty pleasure.  That's a great way to describe Riverdale.

[Dobian]

I really enjoyed the Alice scenes.  Her landing the airplane was officially the last wacky scene in the series, and it was great.  I thought they did a good job of bringing closure to her and Betty.  Her combative relationship with Betty was always one of the themes of the show.

I have known and witnessed several contentious mother/daughter relationships over the years.  While Betty and Alice were over the top, these relationships really can get that extreme.  I've seen mothers who were terribly emotionally abusive to their daughters like Alice was to Betty, but their daughters still wanted their love and approval.  I think in some ways, Betty and Alice had the most relatable and most real relationship in the series.

Edited August 25, 2023 by Dobian

[Noneofyourbusiness]

On 8/24/2023 at 6:33 PM, SourK said:

I was confused about why Reggie wasn't part of their poly utopia, since three of them were attracted to him already.

I laughed when Archie tried to say something nice to Betty about how they might end up together, and she was like, "No, Archie, you're going to move to California and die an old man." Like, imagine that from his POV, where he doesn't know she's a time traveler and he just thinks she's being weird.

Yes, that's what I thought "the four of you" would mean at first, since Veronica had dated Reggie a little, Betty had thought about dating him, and it was implied something happened between him and Archie at Twyla's. Though I do like Veronica and Jughead together.

Archie seemed to take what Betty was saying in stride, perhaps because it was Memory Archie.

On 8/24/2023 at 11:50 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seems healthier than the traditional Archie dithering between Betty and Veronica and the ensuing catfights that came with it. 

Indeed. Making people choose between more than one person they have genuine feelings for seems cruelly arbitrary to me 'cause they'll be cutting off a part of themself either way, and my reaction to love triangles is always that they should have a threesome, so it was refreshing to see it actually happen for once (I know it happened on Sense8, but I haven't watched the show yet).

I think jealousy is a stupid and unsympathetic emotion that only sabotages love. I was thinking just yesterday that I wish the 2013 Dracula series had gone there with Dracula aka "Alexander Grayson" (Jonathan Rhys-Meyers), Mina Murray (Jessica De Gouw) and Jonathan Harker (Oliver Jackson-Cohen); given Dracula and Jonathan's interactions it would have made a deal of sense in that version. Also, it would have made sense in Deadly Class with Marcus, Saya and Maria.

It was disappointing and male-fantasy-esque that there was no J&A (or R&A) to go with B&V, though.

On 8/25/2023 at 9:10 AM, Affogato said:

The next day she tours Riverdale with her granddaughter, dozes off and has a dream of going to Pop's as she passes painlessly from her life.

Given that we've already seen the Sweet Hereafter is real in Riverdale, there's no reason not to take that part literally.

Speaking of cwtv.com, I wish they would do more promoting of the fact Dark Matter is available (https://www.cwtv.com/shows/dark-matter/episode-one/?play=ad657bfa-04f7-4a05-85f5-176f22440155) like they do with others. A seriously under-remembered show that was cancelled by Syfy 3/5 into its planned 5-season arc for being more popular than the Syfy Originals it could make money off of merchandising, which it couldn't for Dark Matter because it was a co-production with Prodigy Pictures in Canada. It deserves more attention 'cause every bit helps. The showrunner, Joe Mallozzi (also worked on Stargate) is very active on social media and his own blog https://josephmallozzi.com/, and tried to pitch a revival to Netflix last year.

Edited August 26, 2023 by Noneofyourbusiness

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/24/2023 at 3:06 PM, rmontro said:

I was, and am, disgusted by it.  Call it what you will, they're not real people.  But it's emblematic of the lack of sexual morals in the culture, and the "anything goes" attitude prevalent today.  Sexual responsibility is a thing, and there can be consequences for promiscuity.  Especially in the '50s, which was before the Pill was approved.  If it wasn't for Superman and Lois, I'd probably be done with the CW, and happier for it.

So are you disgusted by:

1. Polyamory inherently? Like was it disgusting that Reggie, Archie and Twyla had sex?

2. The non-heterosexual portion of the relationship?

3. The premarital sex part of it? In which case were you disgusted by all the other premarital sex in the show over the 7 seasons?

4, Something else? All of the above?

 

[Dobian]

My main problem with "the quad" was that not only did the writers choose to have Jughead in there and not Reggie (which I sort of get because Jughead-Betty-Archie-Veronica were the Big Four on this show), but that Archie never told Reggie.  This made absolutely no sense as the two of them had become like brothers.  So all those months, Archie never mentioned it to Reggie and Reggie never noticed anything?  And Reggie would have been pissed at Archie when he found out, not all "golly gee" with Betty.

My other nitpick is Riverdale itself at the end.  All they showed was the Riverdale sign and Pop's, and it had a general feeling of a dead and dying place full of weeds and decay.  Why not show downtown with people on the street and kids at the high school?  The Archie gang fixed things in the 50s, so the town should have been alive and well in the 2020s.  If Pop's closed, have another business in there, or an "under new management" sign.  They chose to show a rather depressing version of modern Riverdale instead, which was out of step with how the series ended. 

Edited August 26, 2023 by Dobian

[Moxie Cat]

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

My other nitpick is Riverdale itself at the end.  All they showed was the Riverdale sign and Pop's, and it had a general feeling of a dead and dying place full of weeds and decay.

But wouldn't that fit with where Riverdale was heading in the last few seasons in "the real world?" I know some of that had to do with Hiram's machinations, but it's also very realistic to have a small town in the middle of nowhere become irrelevant due to industry moving elsewhere.

And notably, in the original timeline, the town also fell apart when all the main characters moved away after high school. The same thing also happened here - they all moved away. No one moved back to reinvigorate the town, as in the original timeline. The characters made society better on a macro level, but that had nothing to do with the fate of the town itself.

That said, I would have been OK with seeing a happy town in the finale.

[Dobian]

1 hour ago, Moxie Cat said:

But wouldn't that fit with where Riverdale was heading in the last few seasons in "the real world?" I know some of that had to do with Hiram's machinations, but it's also very realistic to have a small town in the middle of nowhere become irrelevant due to industry moving elsewhere.

My feeling was that in the original timeline, Riverdale was a dark and evil place that was destroyed by Hiram and the Blossoms, but in the new timeline, goodness prevailed.  I wanted to see that manifested in the present in Tabitha's merged universe.  Sure, Riverdale could have declined entirely for organic reasons.  It's lightly implied that the Riverdale in the show is in upstate New York, so it might have been in a good location for suburban expansion.  But some small towns thrive while others die all the time based on chance and logistics.

[rmontro]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So are you disgusted by:

It's mainly the idea of these four close friends that we've known all this time, deciding to turn their senior year into a sexual free for all.  I can't imagine doing that with my group of friends that I hung out with in high school.  I guess it fits in with Archie's pursuit of beatnik sleaziness or whatever (he was always kind of a male slut on the show anyway), but it's just not my cup of tea.  Oh wow, look how liberated they are.  Meh.  

I've already explained I am old fashioned, and think people should be responsible sexually.  I don't believe that sex should be the casual toy it is so often portrayed as these days.  Why are you so interested in what I am disgusted by?

Edited August 26, 2023 by rmontro

[Noneofyourbusiness]

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

and Reggie never noticed anything?

Good point. They were living in the same house. Reggie's not that oblivious.

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

My other nitpick is Riverdale itself at the end.  All they showed was the Riverdale sign and Pop's, and it had a general feeling of a dead and dying place full of weeds and decay.  Why not show downtown with people on the street and kids at the high school? 

I'm sure that stuff was there further into town, but as you say, we only saw the sign and Pop's, which was now a very old former business. Too bad given that before the timeline was altered, Alexandra was planning on franchising it.

[Chicago Redshirt]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

It's mainly the idea of these four close friends that we've known all this time, deciding to turn their senior year into a sexual free for all.  I can't imagine doing that with my group of friends that I hung out with in high school.  I guess it fits in with Archie's pursuit of beatnik sleaziness or whatever (he was always kind of a male slut on the show anyway), but it's just not my cup of tea.  Oh wow, look how liberated they are.  Meh.  

I've already explained I am old fashioned, and think people should be responsible sexually.  I don't believe that sex should be the casual toy it is so often portrayed as these days.  Why are you so interested in what I am disgusted by?

I'm interested because "disgusted" is a strong word and I was curious  what precisely caused that reaction in you. At the end of the day, of course, you do you. If it was that you think polyamory is inherently immoral, fine. If you think it's because there's the gayness in the mix, fine. If it's because there's an interracial component, fine. 

It sounds like a big component is that they are acting in a way different from how you envision you and your high school friends acting. Which, also fine.

But the quad was not portrayed as any more or less responsible sexually as any of the other liaisons that the show has displayed over the years, or even this season. This was not a casual fling. This was the decision of people who had lived two lifetimes together, who had shared romantic and sexual relationships together, deciding to give it a go as a foursome. And again, about the tamest foursome that there could be. If there were times when there were menages a troi or where all four were involved, it got glossed over. Instead, it was just Betty sometimes hooked up with Archie, sometimes with Jughead and sometimes with Veronica. 

If anything, I'm disappointed that the quad as far as we were shown utterly fell apart both as a romantic thing and as a friendship thing after they graduated Riverdale. One would think that the lessons of the past would at least have them remaining in touch after all they'd been through.

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I'm interested because "disgusted" is a strong word and I was curious  what precisely caused that reaction in you. At the end of the day, of course, you do you. If it was that you think polyamory is inherently immoral, fine. If you think it's because there's the gayness in the mix, fine. If it's because there's an interracial component, fine. .

Honestly, when you said interracial component, I had to stop and think for a minute what you were talking about.  Anyway, if you are uncomfortable with the word disgusted, you can substitute it with something else.  You're right, this wasn't a direction that I would have taken, nor do I think it is a wise thing to do.  Seriously, I doubt that most high school students would have the maturity to navigate this sort of relationship without problems, even if they approved of such a thing.

Edited August 27, 2023 by rmontro

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

  Seriously, I doubt that most high school students would have the maturity to navigate this sort of relationship without problems, even if they approved of such a thing.

This is true enough. Good thing they all moved on at the end of school. On the other hand they had a wealth of weird experience by then. Maybe it could have worked. 

Edited August 27, 2023 by Affogato

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

This is true enough. Good thing they all moved on at the end of school. On the other hand they had a wealth of weird experience by then. Maybe it could have worked. 

Maybe, after all, they look like they could be in their 20s or 30s  😄

[Dobian]

7 hours ago, rmontro said:

Honestly, when you said interracial component, I had to stop and think for a minute what you were talking about.  Anyway, if you are uncomfortable with the word disgusted, you can substitute it with something else.  You're right, this wasn't a direction that I would have taken, nor do I think it is a wise thing to do.  Seriously, I doubt that most high school students would have the maturity to navigate this sort of relationship without problems, even if they approved of such a thing.

Well, this is easy to forget because this bonkers show decided to throw in a flash-forward followed by a multiverse alternate timeline the last few seasons.  But after the Archie gang got their memories back, they were essentially 27 year olds in teenage bodies.  The show never explored this because their memories came back in the penultimate episode, but yes, the "quad" was actually between four adults.  They got to experience senior year of high school again with adult knowledge and experience.

Edited August 27, 2023 by Dobian

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

But after the Archie gang got their memories back, they were essentially 27 year olds in teenage bodies.  The show never explored this because their memories came back in the penultimate episode, but yes, the "quad" was actually between four adults.  They got to experience senior year of high school again with adult knowledge and experience.

Good point, but I still think it's icky, and jenky.

[Chicago Redshirt]

10 hours ago, rmontro said:

Honestly, when you said interracial component, I had to stop and think for a minute what you were talking about.  Anyway, if you are uncomfortable with the word disgusted, you can substitute it with something else.  You're right, this wasn't a direction that I would have taken, nor do I think it is a wise thing to do.  Seriously, I doubt that most high school students would have the maturity to navigate this sort of relationship without problems, even if they approved of such a thing.

Even assuming for argument's sake that most high school students aren't mature enough to navigate that sort of relationship, it's important to point out the Core Four in this final episode aren't typical, nor are they truly high school students.

They have some level of memories of Archie having slept with both Veronica and Betty up through their being late 20-somethings, and of Betty and Jughead having slept together as teens from their previous lives in addition to their memories of their junior year where Betty and Veronica both had interest in Archie but never consummated that interest beyond smooching and where  Veronica and Jughead were dating. In the previous timeline, both Betty and Veronica wondered if they were soulmates with Archie and would end up with him forever. and Archie had wondered the same thing.

With that in the background, it seems like a Veronica/Betty/Archie triad would be more serious than any threesome/foursome that could be found among typical teenagers. Adding Jughead into the mix isn't really adding that much more complication or disgustingness IMO, but your mileage may vary.