S04.E05: Paradise Lost

[Whimsy]

Quote

An intense pool party conversation has a lasting ripple effect during the next day's dates. One couple's doubts lead to a drastic decision.

Original airdate 3/24/23

[nomodrama]

And I'm out. These women are absolutely awful. The way they were talking about Zach was horrible. There is not a single person to root for this season. And I'm lumping Tiffany in this for being an absolute coward, one for just sitting there and letting the other two say all that stuff about Zach and for also not being honest when Jackie totally flipped sides on the Kwame/Chelsea situation. Gross. 

[Racj82]

I'm loving this season.

Every couple I find interesting or enjoyable.

There isn't a ton of fat. Most scenes have a point.

I liked seeing the three black men having sincere discussions with each other. I love breaking stereotypes.

Irina goes right into talking about who she wants during the break up. Amazing.

Realistically, your feelings would be way more complicated if you were truly into more than one person. I'm not justifying any shitty treatment here. But, I don't expect any of them to be able to magically turn off their feelings. Respect and boundaries should also come into play.

We have so many people that would be happier with someone else. It's wild.

[snarts]

Zach was much nicer to Irina than I would've been. She just used him for a trip to Mexico. Did I miss hearing why he shaved all his body hair?  Is he a competitive swimmer or cyclist?

Something's off with Jackie. Thinking she left a man at home.

Man, those previews. I hope it's a fake out because I'll actually be disappointed if Brett & Tiffany don't work out.

 

[violet and green]

Unless by some miracle Zack comes back with a second chance with Bliss, which is highly unlikely, I am out. I fast forwarded through most of the last three eps, anyway. The women are awful. The men are dubious. The only one I felt any interest in watching was Zack and even the nicer of the women was horrible talking about him.

[catherinejane]

will Bliss say yes? she now has a chance to see him before she decides.

I know its good to GO GIRL, DUMP HIS SECOND CHOICE ARSE, but thats sort of cutting off your nose if he is nice and you like what you see in person. worth dating anyway, even if outside the "marry in 30 days" madness.

The previews look mad - totally wife swap central. i doubt anyone will make it down the aisle and say yes to their starter person at this rate.

Irina wants jack, micah (with jack) wants Kammee - that leaves 2 other couples to root for.

 

 

[William2021]

On 3/26/2023 at 3:04 AM, nomodrama said:

There is not a single person to root for this season. 

Chelsea isn't bad no? From the footage seems like one of the only thoroughly 'good' people this season of LIB, that is also attractive and in shape. It's fascinating how she's still trying hard for Kwame, a guy that's way under her league.

[William2021]

On 3/26/2023 at 8:33 AM, Racj82 said:

Irina goes right into talking about who she wants during the break up. Amazing.

It's also amazing how the tables turned for Zack. Going from having to decide between 2 women in the pods, to now this.

[LuvMyShows]

13 hours ago, catherinejane said:

I know its good to GO GIRL, DUMP HIS SECOND CHOICE ARSE, but thats sort of cutting off your nose if he is nice and you like what you see in person. worth dating anyway, even if outside the "marry in 30 days" madness.

It's worked twice on the Bachelor.  First, eons ago, when Jason chose Melissa then dumped her on After the Final Rose for Molly.  Then somewhat more recently when Ari chose Becca, and dumped her at the cabin where they would meet before they were allowed to go public, and chose Lauren.  Both couples are married with kids and going strong, and are the only still-married couples to come from the Bachelor franchise (as opposed to Bachelorette), other than Sean and Catherine.  So there's something to this idea of recognizing when you chose the wrong person, and if you're on the other side, being willing to move past it and give love a chance. 

Edited March 28, 2023 by LuvMyShows

[DearEvette]

I noticed that Chelsea has great earrings.  Yeah, her earring game in on point.   I am glad she called Kwame out.  I liked him a little more this episode. I hope he stays the course for her sake,

Yeah, loved the conversation between Kwame, Brett and Marshall.  That was great and Marshal''s point was so true about you don't get to see that.

Cracking up at Paul and Zach looking back with regret. 

That break up conversation between Zach and Irina is the most I've liked Irina this entire show.  You could tell that once they decided to end it, they both felt immediately 100% better and they were able to laugh at and insult each other and actually enjoy each other for the first time in person.

For all that people know that Irina is toxic, I can't understand why they internalized her opinion of Zack?  The other women had very little interaction with him from what I can tell, so why is he getting the 'weirdo' narrative?  Odd. It makes me think  less of Chelsea, tbh. 

...Wait...Bliss?  Hmm... plot twist.

[Irlandesa]

On 3/26/2023 at 4:47 PM, snarts said:

Something's off with Jackie. Thinking she left a man at home.

Definitely.  She's so beautiful but she's starting to give me some off vibes.  It's not just her maybe panic attack but it's the badmouthing others behind their backs and it feels like she's not sharing all of what is going on with her to Marshall.

18 hours ago, DearEvette said:

That break up conversation between Zach and Irina is the most I've liked Irina this entire show. 

Right?  Immediately it seemed like they could be friends.  I got such a sibling vibe from them.  But it did irritate me how long it took to get there.  It seemed like she was openly flirting with Paul in the pool and in the bar almost immediately and right in front of Zack.  So it's pretty clear she wasn't into him.

Does anyone know what Irina's "business" is?  It says she's a business owner.

18 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Odd. It makes me think  less of Chelsea, tbh. 

She might know him more so I have to take that into account but I also am a little suspicious of someone who seems so in control accepting what she's accepting from Kwame if she didn't have other goals in mind.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Irlandesa

[SummerDreams]

I don't mean this in a racist way, but I can't stop thinking that Zach chose Irina because she told him she was from Russia and everyone knows that Russian women are the most beautiful women in the world. I think he had a better connection with Bliss mentally but he couldn't resist seeing Irina probably imagining her as this blonde tall beautiful model type woman. I'm not saying Irina is ugly but boy was she not your typical Russian goddess.

[marny]

1 hour ago, SummerDreams said:

I don't mean this in a racist way, but I can't stop thinking that Zach chose Irina because she told him she was from Russia and everyone knows that Russian women are the most beautiful women in the world. I think he had a better connection with Bliss mentally but he couldn't resist seeing Irina probably imagining her as this blonde tall beautiful model type woman. I'm not saying Irina is ugly but boy was she not your typical Russian goddess.

Everyone knows this? I don’t think this is a universally-believed stereotype. If so, Brazil, Sweden, or France might want to have a word (just to name a few). It’s more likely that, like a lot of guys, he liked that  Irina seemed like more of a challenge whereas Bliss didn’t play hard to get in the pods at all. She was basically reading him poems about how much she liked him. It was kind of embarrassing. 

Edited April 3, 2023 by marny

[nichelle]

17 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

I don't mean this in a racist way, but I can't stop thinking that Zach chose Irina because she told him she was from Russia and everyone knows that Russian women are the most beautiful women in the world. I think he had a better connection with Bliss mentally but he couldn't resist seeing Irina probably imagining her as this blonde tall beautiful model type woman. I'm not saying Irina is ugly but boy was she not your typical Russian goddess.

I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever heard/read this sentiment. And I'd like to think he didn't choose her based on some stereotype. 

Anyway, he sure regretted that choice. I think it's interesting that he called her vicious but chose her anyway.  He knew enough to see a red flag, but still drove into the ditch. Hopefully he's reflected on that choice.

'Hey Zack, tell us about your wife!'

'Well, she's vicious. Want to meet her?'

'No, thanks'

 

Edited April 4, 2023 by nichelle
Spelling is hard ;)

[Starlight925]

Irina is a classic manipulator.  That's why Zach chose her.

In the pods, she listened as he told her about his horrible childhood, she told him how crazy she was about him.

And then, she forgot about his birthday, and she showed other telltale signs of being toxic.

He chose her, in large part, hoping to "fix" his broken childhood.  His mother who was there one minute, gone the next.  His mother, who kept him on eggshells, never wondering if she really loved him.

He chose toxic, vicious Irina, even after hearing Bliss say things about her that were unflattering, not in spite of these things, but because of these things.

It's a classic psychological theory:  that with a broken childhood, one seeks to fix the brokenness in a partner.  If only I can get toxic, vicious Irina to be there for me, it rights all the wrongs my main female figure did to me.

Zach needs deep dive therapy, possibly EMDR, to undo the damage his mother did to him.

When Irina met him and her face dropped, as she didn't find him attractive, he knew it was over.  So he teetered over to Bliss, the sure thing.  Which unfortunately won't last, because he hasn't worked out his childhood push-pull affection of his own mother.

That's my 5 cents non-psychologist's view.

Edited April 4, 2023 by Starlight925

[DearEvette]

I wonder if Bliss' comment about her family not liking him factored really big in his decision?  it could be that as a child -- the child of a stripper no less -- that he was probably rejected by other kids, other kids' families.  That is something that sticks with you.  When she said it, he kinda paused and got quiet.  And she realized it and tried to reassure and back-track but it was there.

Family reactions can definitely have some impact on the relationships.  In the most recent Love is Blind Brazil, there was one mother who was ... a piece of work.  And we know SK claimed that Raven's family not being there was a red flag for him and a reason he said no.  I even though I don't think Shayna was into Kyle at all, i got the impression her family didn't like him and was the excuse she needed to bail early.

[Starlight925]

1 minute ago, DearEvette said:

I wonder if Bliss' comment about her family not liking him factored really big in his decision?  it could be that as a child -- the child of a stripper no less -- that he was probably rejected by other kids, other kids' families.  That is something that sticks with you.  When she said it, he kinda paused and got quiet.  And she realized it and tried to reassure and back-track but it was there.

Family reactions can definitely have some impact on the relationships.  In the most recent Love is Blind Brazil, there was one mother who was ... a piece of work.  And we know SK claimed that Raven's family not being there was a red flag for him and a reason he said no.  I even though I don't think Shayna was into Kyle at all, i got the impression her family didn't like him and was the excuse she needed to bail early.

 

This is likely very true.  I hadn't thought of this fact, that he said he was rejected by other kids.  There were probably parents who didn't want their kids to hang with him.

I knew a girl in high school, super sweet, awesome girl, who had this great boyfriend.  They stayed together for a few years after college, then broke up.  He asked me out, but when he told me the reason that he broke up with her, I said no.  She had a locally infamous father who had embezzled from his company, and he told me that "no way will my kids have him as a grandpa".  Jerk.

[SummerDreams]

4 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

I knew a girl in high school, super sweet, awesome girl, who had this great boyfriend.  They stayed together for a few years after college, then broke up.  He asked me out, but when he told me the reason that he broke up with her, I said no.  She had a locally infamous father who had embezzled from his company, and he told me that "no way will my kids have him as a grandpa".  Jerk.

I'm confused. Did you not find this a good enough reason for him to leave her?

[Snapdragon]

8 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

 

This is likely very true.  I hadn't thought of this fact, that he said he was rejected by other kids.  There were probably parents who didn't want their kids to hang with him.

I knew a girl in high school, super sweet, awesome girl, who had this great boyfriend.  They stayed together for a few years after college, then broke up.  He asked me out, but when he told me the reason that he broke up with her, I said no.  She had a locally infamous father who had embezzled from his company, and he told me that "no way will my kids have him as a grandpa".  Jerk.

I honestly don't think that's a bad reason to break up with someone.  In reality, you're not just marrying a person.  You're marrying their family.  So if what you're wanting is in-laws who you can be close to, depend on and feel good leaving your kids with on the weekends, yeah, someone whose parents you don't respect might not be the best choice.  And I think it's better to realize that when you're dating and break up with the person then marry them and constantly be stressed out by their parents.  

I feel like Zach must have said some weird stuff in the pods to the other women that they haven't shown because basically all the women are creeped out by him while the men all seem cool with him.  I think he was lying a lot as "jokes" or "tests" since we did hear him say the fake "I'm a stripper" thing to more than one woman and at one point he was reminiscing with Irina about how he told her some bs story about how he lived under a bridge or something and how she didn't judge him, even though it wasn't true.  So I'm guessing he must have been making up all sorts of things to see if the women would like him anyway and once they realized this, they were all pretty much turned off by it.

[RedInk]

9 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

 

This is likely very true.  I hadn't thought of this fact, that he said he was rejected by other kids.  There were probably parents who didn't want their kids to hang with him.

I knew a girl in high school, super sweet, awesome girl, who had this great boyfriend.  They stayed together for a few years after college, then broke up.  He asked me out, but when he told me the reason that he broke up with her, I said no.  She had a locally infamous father who had embezzled from his company, and he told me that "no way will my kids have him as a grandpa".  Jerk.

You know, I was thinking that I agree & this was a terrible reason to break up with someone. We aren’t our parents.  But THEN I considered what I would do if a guy started crying to me about his hard-scrabble life with a stripper mom who has since passed away. I would red-flag that and move along. Is that the same kind of judgement lol? I don’t think so. But I know I don’t want mommy issues. 

[Irlandesa]

10 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I wonder if Bliss' comment about her family not liking him factored really big in his decision?  it could be that as a child -- the child of a stripper no less -- that he was probably rejected by other kids, other kids' families.  That is something that sticks with you.  When she said it, he kinda paused and got quiet.  And she realized it and tried to reassure and back-track but it was there.

I agree, especially since so much of this show relies on a process somewhat similar to arranged marriages in that people serious about the process are going to think about life compatibility. Family is part of that compatibility. If Bliss's family disapproves, that could become an issue for her deciding to be with him since it sounds like she's close to them. 

By the way, this works both ways.  If you have a partner who can't set boundaries with a toxic family, that's another situation you don't want to be in.

3 hours ago, Snapdragon said:

I feel like Zach must have said some weird stuff in the pods to the other women that they haven't shown because basically all the women are creeped out by him while the men all seem cool with him. 

I think only Irina specifically said he gave her the ick.  Chelsea just said she couldn't stand him so I don't know if they're creeped out by him but he did give an initial bad impression. 

 

 

[Snapdragon]

23 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

 

I think only Irina specifically said he gave her the ick.  Chelsea just said she couldn't stand him so I don't know if they're creeped out by him but he did give an initial bad impression. 

 

 

Offended might be a better word.  Jackelina also didn't like Zach, so that's what, all the women save for Tiffany?  And Tiffany seems to be the type to not talk badly about anyone, so who knows if she actually likes him or not.  And Jackie obviously likes to stir up stuff but when she was going off on Zach, she also mentioned that she didn't like Irina either, so it's not like her dislike of him is being fueled by loyalty to Irina or anything.  I'll be curious to see what is said about him at the reunion.  I'm guessing that if he did do/say something off putting, we'll hear about it there.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Snapdragon

[Starlight925]

13 hours ago, Starlight925 said:

I knew a girl in high school, super sweet, awesome girl, who had this great boyfriend.  They stayed together for a few years after college, then broke up.  He asked me out, but when he told me the reason that he broke up with her, I said no.  She had a locally infamous father who had embezzled from his company, and he told me that "no way will my kids have him as a grandpa".  Jerk.

 

8 hours ago, SummerDreams said:

I'm confused. Did you not find this a good enough reason for him to leave her?

 

I found this a jerk move for him to leave her because of what her father did.  This sweet girl I'm speaking of is not her father, who embezzled.  Nor is Zach his mother, who stripped.

My mother never should have dated my father then, as his father was one of the worst human beings ever alive, and his mother was mentally ill, and would take his younger sister (at 4 years old) to sit on a barstool next to her as she picked up men.

My parents were married 63 years, and my father used his horrible parents and his own horrible childhood as a model for what NOT to  do, and became the best husband and father our family could have had.

My mother came from a good, close family.  On paper, my dad was the worst possible choice.  Except that he was working hard (from age of 12, as his dad was a loser) and saw a better future, so she & her family loved him.

When he turned 21, my mom's family had a little birthday dinner for him:  a home-cooked meal, a cake, and a plaid flannel shirt as a present.  He kept that shirt until he died, as that was the first time anyone had even wished him a happy birthday, let alone bought him a present.

So yes, I do think it's wrong to not  date someone because of what their parents did.

And maybe I see my dad in Zach.  Zach could have gone a lot of different directions:  drugs, crime, general basement slacker.  He chose education and work, and is now choosing to find love.  Sure, he stares at someone.  MMMkay, that's realllllly bad.  Not.

Edited April 5, 2023 by Starlight925

[1011101010001]

On 4/3/2023 at 11:51 PM, nichelle said:

I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever heard/read this sentiment.

Yeah I think of women in babushkas standing in line to buy potatoes.

[Lindz]

WHAT IS IT ABOUT ZACK THAT MADE THE GIRLS CALL HIM WEIRD?!?!!!

[Lindz]

Irina went the cowardly, effed up route & made Zack end it by treating him like crap. Yup. Real classy. Real mature. He got what deserved. 🤣🤣🤣

[Lindz]

Well. Irina & Micah are besties, they can share a man. 🤣🤣 It'd be hilarious if Irina tried to get with Paul.

[Lindz]

What doesn't Chelsea get about former almost engageds talking for a long time??? It's textbook at this point! I'm disappointed she didn't do her homework on that happening & deciding what they'll do. Now if Kwame would've completely forgotten that the second he saw Micah is another story. 🤣 Chelsea should've been more understanding & calm & say agreed on what they'd do next time(s).

[Baltimore Betty]

I cannot believe the load of crap that Micah was spewing, the level of bullshit is insane...Irina is telling Zack she loves him too much to touch him? Neither one of those girls are ready for marriage, they are 25, they are there for visibility. I love that they keep flashing Irina's name and underneath it just says "Business Owner," what kind of business does she own?

[Jax7917]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:48 AM, DearEvette said:

I wonder if Bliss' comment about her family not liking him factored really big in his decision?  it could be that as a child -- the child of a stripper no less -- that he was probably rejected by other kids, other kids' families.  That is something that sticks with you.  When she said it, he kinda paused and got quiet.  And she realized it and tried to reassure and back-track but it was there.

Family reactions can definitely have some impact on the relationships.  In the most recent Love is Blind Brazil, there was one mother who was ... a piece of work.  And we know SK claimed that Raven's family not being there was a red flag for him and a reason he said no.  I even though I don't think Shayna was into Kyle at all, i got the impression her family didn't like him and was the excuse she needed to bail early.

Is this a spoiler for the end of the season ? Because I wasn’t up to that yet …

[DearEvette]

1 hour ago, Jax7917 said:

Is this a spoiler for the end of the season ? Because I wasn’t up to that yet …

No.  Bliss'  comment about her dad not liking him was said when they were still in the pods.  

[Jax7917]

15 hours ago, DearEvette said:

No.  Bliss'  comment about her dad not liking him was said when they were still in the pods.  

I’m confused . How do they know if their parents like the person in the pod ? 

[Irlandesa]

1 hour ago, Jax7917 said:

I’m confused . How do they know if their parents like the person in the pod ? 

I think it was more of a guess. I forget the specific comment but I do remember the moment in the pods and you could see Zach's face fall.

Edited April 23, 2023 by Irlandesa