S02.E03: Mojitos Mo' Problems

[gaPeach]

I always assume, whether I am doing something high-end or something fiscally conservative, that I am being talked about and probably mocked to a certain extent by the service providers.

 

I do get that part that serve people will talk about their clients etc.  I use to waitress at a bar so I totally get it.  But I reserved my complaining to those the deserved it and just did not see how out the gate the clients were a pain in her butt when they asked for the drink they listed as one they wanted.  She made such a big deal about the Mojitos and on the very first one she asked for.  I never heard the lady complain about how it was made or anything so what was the big deal?  I did not find this group to be all that demanding of the crew or at least not compared to what we have seen.  And again that is her JOB.  She has nothing else to do but wait on these people until they are off the boat.  I just found it Over the Top.  It really came off as jealously for as much as she mocked them.  Just MHO.

[BitchOnWheelz]

Telling  a woman to smile is so sexist.  You noticed they had no problem with the men who NEVER smile.  Back in the day when Rosie was sent back to the home kitchen after WWII and just about when women were dressed in corsets and high heels and stockings.  Telling a woman to "smile" was meant to put her in her place.  Forget your education, your experience and just look pretty. 

 

I agree so much.  I've never thought about it, but it is sexist.  I know plenty of men at my job who NEVER smile and nobody says a word about it.  I, like Kate, have a stern-looking "resting face", so I'm told to smile ALL THE TIME!  I've gotten so tired of hearing people say "Smile!" that I smile constantly so I don't have to hear anyone's shit.

 

I call BS on Andrew fudging his resume. I think he was hired as a plant and the no-experience reveal was completely scripted. I can't believe that any captain or whoever the hell hires yacht crews wouldn't take a close look a resume before pulling the trigger.

You're so right.  The thought of Captain Crunch not checking references for crew on a ultra luxury yacht is ridick.

[Almost 3000]

OK, this really bothers me. Where in the heck do the guests get a huge envelope of cash! I've been on cruises and you just go to the purser's desk which acts as a bank and get cash and envelopes. Easy, peasy. But I'm sure Captain Lee doesn't operate a bank and I can't imagine guests carrying that cash on-board or running around looking for a bank. That cash tip hand out seems phony but of course dramatic.

[ExplainItAgain]

I'm sure production is involved in that. They probably indicate how much they want to tip and production gives them the envelope and cash (because it's always the same white envelopes). I'm sure it's taken out of something or factored in to the discount they receive or something...

[bencr]

I really enjoyed Captain Lee's take on the latest episode in his Bravo blog.

 

He comes down hard on Andrew, but says he sees some redeeming personality traits that kept him from firing Andrew on the spot.

 

He also comes down hard on Kate and Kelley. He's critical of Kelley for sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. Everyone understands the frustration of having to pick up the slack for a lazy or incompetent co-worker ... especially so since Andrew lied about his qualifications. But  Kelley needs to butt out with respect to whether or not Andrew should be fired. It's not his job to make that determination. Kelley seems to react rather emotionally to things, which sometimes serves you well in the business world and sometimes does not.

 

With respect to Kate, Captain Lee correctly points out that she is working in a service job in a service industry -- serving people who have paid a shitload of money for this experience. Even Captain Lee smiles when he is with the charter guests and you know he isn't happy to be socializing with them. 

 

I'm not saying women aren't expected to smile more than men or told more often to smile, but I think this is a bad example for making that point.

Edited August 28, 2014 by bencr

[rho]

OK, this really bothers me. Where in the heck do the guests get a huge envelope of cash! I've been on cruises and you just go to the purser's desk which acts as a bank and get cash and envelopes. Easy, peasy. But I'm sure Captain Lee doesn't operate a bank and I can't imagine guests carrying that cash on-board or running around looking for a bank. That cash tip hand out seems phony but of course dramatic.

 

 

I'm not sure how involved Bravo is with the tips seen on the show, but it's actually pretty standard to leave a cash tip in a white envelope on a chartered yacht or even a one-day snorkeling excursion. With a little help from the crew members, the primary guest can find a bank or have money wired in advance knowing they will be vacationing abroad.

Edited August 28, 2014 by rho

[LotusFlower]

He also comes down hard on Kate and Kelley. He's critical of Kelley for sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong. Everyone understands the frustration of having to pick up the slack for a lazy or incompetent co-worker ... especially so since Andrew lied about his qualifications. But Kelley needs to butt out with respect to whether or not Andrew should be fired. It's not his job to make that determination.

How is Kelley sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong? I agree that he's not Andrew's boss and doesn't get to make the decision to fire or keep him, but as his co-worker, he's most certainly involved in the situation. He has to work twice as hard to make up for Andrew's ineptitude, plus take even more time to teach Andrew how to do even the most basic of duties. Why? Because Andrew lied on his resume and doesn't know how to do anything. And according to the Captain, that's an offense they're going to ignore for the time being. Esp. since Andrew showed such strength of character for being "honest" about his lie. And even worse - he admired the lie for being so ballsy! Jesus! I get the Captain doesn't like belly-aching, but none of the staff would be complaining if he had fired Andrew on the spot, which is the only appropriate action he should have taken, imho.

Edited August 28, 2014 by LotusFlower

[bencr]

How is Kelley sticking his nose in where it doesn't belong? I agree that he's not Andrew's boss and doesn't get to make the decision to fire or keep him, but as his co-worker, he's most certainly involved in the situation. He has to work twice as hard to make up for Andrew's ineptitude, plus take even more time to teach Andrew how to do even the most basic of duties. Why? Because Andrew lied on his resume and doesn't know how to do anything. And according to the Captain, that's an offense they're going to ignore for the time being. Esp. since Andrew showed such strength of character for being "honest" about his lie. And even worse - he admired the lie for being so ballsy! Jesus! I get the Captain doesn't like belly-aching, but none of the staff would be complaining if he had fired Andrew on the spot, which is the only appropriate action he should have taken, imho.

There are two separate issues here. One is did the captain and Eddie make the right call regarding Andrew? And the second is whether Kelley has the authority to stick his nose into this personnel matter. You make a lot of good points regarding why the captain may have made the wrong decision. But Kelley has no authority to tell Andrew's bosses that he should be fired ... let alone threaten to quit if Andrew is not fired. My advice to Kelley would be to keep your head down and do your job well. Then one day when you are captain you'll have the authority to make those decisions. I guarantee that when Kelley becomes the captain of a yacht he will not want his deck hands telling him what he should do. Captain Lee's authority to make decisions -- even arguably wrongheaded decisions -- is earned through experience, talent and success.

Edited August 28, 2014 by bencr

[LotusFlower]

There are two separate issues here. One is did the captain and Eddie make the right call regarding Andrew? And the second is whether Kelley has the authority to stick his nose into this personnel matter. You make a lot of good points regarding why the captain may have made the wrong decision. But Kelley has no authority to tell Andrew's bosses that he should be fired ... let alone threaten to quit if Andrew is not fired. My advice to Kelley would be to keep your head down and do your job well. Then one day when you are captain you'll have the authority to make those decisions. I guarantee that when Kelley becomes the captain of a yacht he will not want his deck hands telling him what he should do. Captain Lee's authority to make decisions -- even arguably wrongheaded decisions -- is earned through experience, talent and success.

Yes, there are separate issues here, but they're related. If the Captain had fired Andrew, no one would be complaining. Conversely, since the Captain didn't fire Andrew, the crew is complaining. The second issue (Kelley complaining) is only happening because of the first issue - the Captain's mistake in not firing Andrew. So it all starts there. Not only did Captain Lee not acknowledge this mistake, but he seemed to admire Andrew for his unprofessionalism. What balls he showed to get an opportunity to work on a superyacht! What courage! The Captain's decision seemed to stem from personal feelings as opposed to managerial or supervisory smarts. He seems to just plain like Andrew, and he clearly dislikes Kelley, openly calling him soft for hitting his head on a swing.

I also disagree with the notion that one shouldn't complain about something if it's not in their purview. Yes, the Captain is the boss, and it's his decision alone whether to fire someone. But to say that Kelley shouldn't have (or voice) an opinion on the matter until he's the Captain of his own boat/yacht, is a popular and oft-used way of keeping the little folk down. Keeping workers "in their place." Clearly, I don't subscribe to this way of thinking. And more specific to this scenario, Kelley the deckhand didn't tell Lee the Captain "what to do," which I agree is ballsy and probably inappropriate. He complained to Eddie, his direct supervisor, which is a lot more understandable and commonplace.

[demarti]

I would imagine it would be difficult to fire Andrew on the spot when you are in the middle of a charter and in the middle of god knows where. What is the captain supposed to do, tell him to pack his bag and dump him off at the first marina they come to and then he has to find his own way home? It makes more sense to me to use the kid until the charter is over and the yacht is docked back at the home base, don't share the tip and then fire him. 

[LotusFlower]

I would imagine it would be difficult to fire Andrew on the spot when you are in the middle of a charter and in the middle of god knows where. What is the captain supposed to do, tell him to pack his bag and dump him off at the first marina they come to and then he has to find his own way home? It makes more sense to me to use the kid until the charter is over and the yacht is docked back at the home base, don't share the tip and then fire him.

Did you see the episode? Andrew confessed to the lie before the charter left. So yes, the yacht was docked at its "home base," so to speak. Was there enough time to find a replacement? Probably not. But there was definitely enough time to tell him to pack his bags and leave. And, of course, he would not have been left in the middle of nowhere.

[fliptopbox]

Well, Ben said it best. There's that thing called mutiny. I'm sure that if Andrew isn't fired by the end of the next episode/charter there's going to be some major unrest with the rest of the crew.

[LotusFlower]

Well, Ben said it best. There's that thing called mutiny. I'm sure that if Andrew isn't fired by the end of the next episode/charter there's going to be some major unrest with the rest of the crew.

I agree. Cuz that's what happens when you ignore a problem or handle it wrong.

[rho]

I would imagine it would be difficult to fire Andrew on the spot when you are in the middle of a charter and in the middle of god knows where. What is the captain supposed to do, tell him to pack his bag and dump him off at the first marina they come to and then he has to find his own way home? It makes more sense to me to use the kid until the charter is over and the yacht is docked back at the home base, don't share the tip and then fire him. 

 

 

I don't think the captain is bothered by how his former employees get home. Firing him before the season was over wasn't the problem. And trying to find a replacement shouldn't have been an issue either since the deckhands are already working double time to make up for him. If anything, the charter will go smoother without Andrew.

 

Technically, by waking up and preparing the boat for the guests that day, Andrew had already begun work on that charter. I think the main concern was that guests were arriving within the hour and Andrew is a wild card. Knowing him, he'd take his sweet time packing his bags and saunter down the dock flipping off the captain as the guests come aboard. Basically, Andrew picked the perfect time to come clean to the Captain knowing there were a dozen other things that took priority over his dismissal.

[demarti]

Did you see the episode? Andrew confessed to the lie before the charter left. So yes, the yacht was docked at its "home base," so to speak. Was there enough time to find a replacement? Probably not. But there was definitely enough time to tell him to pack his bags and leave. And, of course, he would not have been left in the middle of nowhere.

Yes, LotusFlower, I SAW to episode. No need to be condescending just because your opinion may differ from mine.

[LotusFlower]

Yes, LotusFlower, I SAW to episode. No need to be condescending just because your opinion may differ from mine.

Please know that you took my comment the wrong way. It wasn't your opinion that I disagreed with - I honestly thought you might not have seen the episode (or maybe ff'd through it like I sometimes do) because you wrote of the difficulty of firing Andrew in the middle of a charter, when in reality they were still docked, and the guests hadn't yet arrived.

[bencr]

 

Yes, there are separate issues here, but they're related. If the Captain had fired Andrew, no one would be complaining. Conversely, since the Captain didn't fire Andrew, the crew is complaining. The second issue (Kelley complaining) is only happening because of the first issue - the Captain's mistake in not firing Andrew. So it all starts there. Not only did Captain Lee not acknowledge this mistake, but he seemed to admire Andrew for his unprofessionalism. What balls he showed to get an opportunity to work on a superyacht! What courage! The Captain's decision seemed to stem from personal feelings as opposed to managerial or supervisory smarts. He seems to just plain like Andrew, and he clearly dislikes Kelley, openly calling him soft for hitting his head on a swing.

I also disagree with the notion that one shouldn't complain about something if it's not in their purview. Yes, the Captain is the boss, and it's his decision alone whether to fire someone. But to say that Kelley shouldn't have (or voice) an opinion on the matter until he's the Captain of his own boat/yacht, is a popular and oft-used way of keeping the little folk down. Keeping workers "in their place." Clearly, I don't subscribe to this way of thinking. And more specific to this scenario, Kelley the deckhand didn't tell Lee the Captain "what to do," which I agree is ballsy and probably inappropriate. He complained to Eddie, his direct supervisor, which is a lot more understandable and commonplace.​

 

Regarding your first point ... of course they're related. It was a cause/effect. That doesn't mean Kelley had to threaten to quit if he didn't get his way regarding Andrew. Thus, two separate issues.

 

Regarding your second point, I would not frame Kelley's threatening to quit if Andrew wasn't fired as the case of the "little man" striving to be heard. Rather, I think Kelley knew that he was all the more essential to the crew now that it was clear just how weak Andrew was, and, in the heat of the moment, he was throwing his weight around. Not cool, especially so since Andrew's livelihood was at stake. It's not like Kelley had anything new to tell Andrew's superiors about Andrew that could potentially change their decision. He was just being petulant and immature (and, in fact, has apologized on Andrew's twitter page for what he said in the heat of the moment).

 

I think Captain Lee has shown over the past couple of seasons that he is willing to listen to the opinions and gripes of his crew, though he is not always sympathetic to what they say. So to frame this discussion as some sort of populist divide between the little man and the big boss misses the point, in my opinion.

 

And one other point I would like to make, it is not "commonplace" and rarely "understandable" for one employee to lobby to another employee's boss to have that person fired. In my experience managing people it only happened once when a woman was going out on pregnancy leave and another employee lobbied to have her fired because of all the extra work her absence would create for him.

Edited August 29, 2014 by bencr

[SFoster21]

Did you see the episode? Andrew confessed to the lie before the charter left. So yes, the yacht was docked at its "home base," so to speak. Was there enough time to find a replacement? Probably not. But there was definitely enough time to tell him to pack his bags and leave. And, of course, he would not have been left in the middle of nowhere.

I'm pretty sure that the firing comes with a plane ticket home; it was mentioned before.

[lisalionheart]

I thought it was more unfair that Lee mocked Kelly for going to the hospital for his head and for his comments about Jenice. On the former, it's always better to be safe than sorry when it comes to a head injury--and I wouldn't be surprised if production pressured him to go to the hospital, both for story and liability reasons. On the latter, it seemed to me that when Kelly was talking about being attracted to Jennice's attributes, he really had been talking about personality and such--it was probably just unfair editing that put that interview clip next to the shorts scene. So far, Kelly has seemed to be extremely respectful toward Jennice, and like a previous poster, I was impressed that he and Eddie both got why Andrew's comments were offensive. (My husband certainly didn't really get it when we were watching!)

 

I think Kate is right that it's unfair that an aging woman in yachting is looked down on, while an aging man gets to become a salty captain. But if she's getting burned out to the point that everything irritates her, she needs to recognize that the problem is with her, not the guests.

 

As for training for the crew--I have a good friend who works on yachts, though she tends to work for private owners who spend much of their time on the boat, rather than for charters. Before she started working as a stew, she took a course on boat safety and such in Ft. Lauderdale. I'm not sure whether that course was just for stews, not for people who wanted to be deckhands, but I imagine that there are opportunities like that for people who want to work in yachting but have no experience.

[demarti]

Please know that you took my comment the wrong way. It wasn't your opinion that I disagreed with - I honestly thought you might not have seen the episode (or maybe ff'd through it like I sometimes do) because you wrote of the difficulty of firing Andrew in the middle of a charter, when in reality they were still docked, and the guests hadn't yet arrived.

Thanks, no harm taken. For what it's worth I think Andrew is a little weasel!

[breezy424]

Yikes, Andrew's position must have an awful lot of responsibility if the rest of the crew had to work twice as hard to take up his slack. 

[LotusFlower]

I think Captain Lee has shown over the past couple of seasons that he is willing to listen to the opinions and gripes of his crew, though he is not always sympathetic to what they say. So to frame this discussion as some sort of populist divide between the little man and the big boss misses the point, in my opinion.

 

And one other point I would like to make, it is not "commonplace" and rarely "understandable" for one employee to lobby to another employee's boss to have that person fired. In my experience managing people it only happened once when a woman was going out on pregnancy leave and another employee lobbied to have her fired because of all the extra work her absence would create for him.

Ben mentioned there might be a mutiny ahead, so a divide between the "workers" and the "Big Boss" might be exactly what happens. And again, it all stems from the Captain's bad decision. But we'll have to wait and see. Secondly, as I wrote earlier, Kelley didn't complain to the Captain and tell him what to do, he complained to Eddie, his direct supervisor. That kind of griping - whether it's right or wrong - is what I was referencing when I said I thought it was understandable.

[FozzyBear]

I'm a little confused about Andrew's resume. After he admitted he fudged it he said he had worked on one charter. Isn't that experience? I mean Sam last season had only sailed on her parent's boat before she was hired and she came across as more competent than Andrew. Was it a different kind of charter he worked on? He still comes across as absurdly ignorant given he actually has worked one full charter. Sam was spoiled and lazy and a bratt, but she didn't act like she'd never been on a boat before like Andrew.

[sasha206]

I agree so much.  I've never thought about it, but it is sexist.  I know plenty of men at my job who NEVER smile and nobody says a word about it.  I, like Kate, have a stern-looking "resting face", so I'm told to smile ALL THE TIME!  I've gotten so tired of hearing people say "Smile!" that I smile constantly so I don't have to hear anyone's shit.

You're so right.  The thought of Captain Crunch not checking references for crew on a ultra luxury yacht is ridick.

 

Sexist?  Seriously?  Maybe they didn't ask the men on the crew to smile when serving them BECAUSE THEY SMILE.  She's the only one of the crew who walks around with a constant surly face.  She seems to resent that she's SERVING people on a yacht instead of being SERVED.  

 

She's in the freaking hospitality industry.  If you don't want to be pleasant and treat your guests as if they are paying your salary for a job YOU signed up to do, don't be in the service industry.  She acts as though the guests are always beneath her, are always imposing on her.  We only see this in snippets on the show; they may see that for an entire trip they paid for.  I'm sure the guests that she depends on to tip her probably wonder why the hell she can't even be bothered to act as though she enjoys her job and being in the service industry.

 

***ETA*** Sorry -- I am sure I came off like a jerk.  I just mean that I don't think the question is sexist.  She's in an industry where people usually smile to their guests and not treat them like classless intrusion to her pursuit of...someone wealthy.

Edited August 29, 2014 by sasha206

[LotusFlower]

Thanks, no harm taken. For what it's worth I think Andrew is a little weasel!

  

Me, too. See? We DO have the same opinion! :)

I thought it was more unfair that Lee mocked Kelly for going to the hospital for his head and for his comments about Jenice. On the former, it's always better to be safe than sorry when it comes to a head injury--and I wouldn't be surprised if production pressured him to go to the hospital, both for story and liability reasons. On the latter, it seemed to me that when Kelly was talking about being attracted to Jennice's attributes, he really had been talking about personality and such--it was probably just unfair editing that put that interview clip next to the shorts scene. So far, Kelly has seemed to be extremely respectful toward Jennice, and like a previous poster, I was impressed that he and Eddie both got why Andrew's comments were offensive.

That stood out to me as well (from the Captain's blog) - criticizing Kelley for going to the hospital, as well as his so-called sexist remarks. It's almost as if he was looking for reasons to criticize the guy. He clearly doesn't like him.

As for Kate being told to smile, I absolutely agree that she has a bad attitude and needs to remember that she's in the service industry. But I don't agree that that gives guests the right to tell her to smile. I HATE when people say that, and I agree with whomever said it was sexist. If guests feel that her dour attitude or permanent serious face or frown is a knock on the service they received, they have every right to feel that way. But then that dissatisfaction shoukd be reflected in the tip, or maybe words with her boss. Telling her to smile is telling her how to do her job. Worse, it's telling her she's doing a bad job, which, in the service industry, can be easily conveyed via the tip.

[sasha206]

  

Me, too. See? We DO have the same opinion! :)

That stood out to me as well (from the Captain's blog) - criticizing Kelley for going to the hospital, as well as his so-called sexist remarks. It's almost as if he was looking for reasons to criticize the guy. He clearly doesn't like him.

As for Kate being told to smile, I absolutely agree that she has a bad attitude and needs to remember that she's in the service industry. But I don't agree that that gives guests the right to tell her to smile. I HATE when people say that, and I agree with whomever said it was sexist. If guests feel that her dour attitude or permanent serious face or frown is a knock on the service they received, they have every right to feel that way. But then that dissatisfaction shoukd be reflected in the tip, or maybe words with her boss. Telling her to smile is telling her how to do her job. Worse, it's telling her she's doing a bad job, which, in the service industry, can be easily conveyed via the tip.

 

If I were Kate, I think I'd rather know my guests were thinking I was a sourpuss before the tip comes.  They pointed out the contrast of Amy, who seems not only efficient but also very good at making the guests feel welcomed.  And there's Kate who may be efficient, but signals to her guests that they are an annoyance.  Maybe she needed to have someone mention that so she realizes that maybe, just maybe, she should try to be pleasant to people she wants tips from?

[sasha206]

Ben had the women guests in the kitchen and had to give him a cooking lesson.  He was gracious and charming as usual with that killer smile.  I'm sure if he had Kate's perpetual snarl, the women would've informed him he never smiles and commented on that.  

[LotusFlower]

If I were Kate, I think I'd rather know my guests were thinking I was a sourpuss before the tip comes. They pointed out the contrast of Amy, who seems not only efficient but also very good at making the guests feel welcomed. And there's Kate who may be efficient, but signals to her guests that they are an annoyance. Maybe she needed to have someone mention that so she realizes that maybe, just maybe, she should try to be pleasant to people she wants tips from?

And yet, that doesn't appear to be the case (Kate appreciating being told of her bad attitude before the tip). She seemed to resent being told to smile, and appeared pissed off and defensive. So it didn't work. I agree with you that someone should tell her to be more friendly and pleasant to the guests (for a lot of reasons, not just the tip). That person should be her boss, not the guests. It's not their place, and it is most definitely the place and responsibility of her boss. Job performance and all.

Edited August 29, 2014 by LotusFlower

[sasha206]

And yet, that doesn't appear to be the case (Kate appreciating being told of her bad attitude before the tip). She seemed to resent being told to smile, and appeared pissed off and defensive. So it didn't work. I agree with you that someone should tell her to be more friendly and pleasant to the guests (for a lot of reasons, not just the tip). That person should be her boss, not the guests. It's not their place, and it is most definitely the place and responsibility of her boss. Job performance and all.

 

But her ultimate boss is the paying guest.  If they disappeared, there would be no job.  I would be willing to bet at your job, your clients are also the ultimate boss.  They are the ones to judge your job performance.  If you are not measuring up, your clients have every right to tell you how you aren't measuring up.  They are paying you.

 

Clients don't have a right to grab your ass.  But clients do have a right to ask you to perform your job in a way that doesn't make them feel like they are intruding on a job site that THEY paid you to work on.

 

I would also prefer my clients to tell me about my job performance without going to my boss.  Wouldn't you?  If she became defensive over it, that's her personality flaw.  They didn't say it rudely.  But her expressions are rude.  Her reaction was rude.  And her comments on drinking are rude.  

 

I'm hoping that her attitude is really just for show.  But she certainly comes off as someone who, while being in the service industry, seems to think she is the only one who knows anything about wealth and having class.  She is incredibly judgmental.

 

ETA:  Apologizing for sounding like an ass when typing out my not so humble opinions!  I get what you are saying as well!

Edited August 29, 2014 by sasha206

[LotusFlower]

But her ultimate boss is the paying guest.  If they disappeared, there would be no job.  I would be willing to bet at your job, your clients are also the ultimate boss.  They are the ones to judge your job performance.  If you are not measuring up, your clients have every right to tell you how you aren't measuring up.  They are paying you.

 

Clients don't have a right to grab your ass.  But clients do have a right to ask you to perform your job in a way that doesn't make them feel like they are intruding on a job site that THEY paid you to work on.

 

I would also prefer my clients to tell me about my job performance without going to my boss.  Wouldn't you?  If she became defensive over it, that's her personality flaw.  They didn't say it rudely.  But her expressions are rude.  Her reaction was rude.  And her comments on drinking are rude.  

 

I'm hoping that her attitude is really just for show.  But she certainly comes off as someone who, while being in the service industry, seems to think she is the only one who knows anything about wealth and having class.  She is incredibly judgmental.

I think by broadening the subject, it's easy to defend criticizing the employee. Maybe in some industries or certain instances, it's ok to do that, and maybe it's even the right course of action. But here, we're talking about the service industry. More specifically, charter guests telling Kate, the chief steward, to smile. I found it patronizing and sexist. Esp. when, again I'll reference the service industry, there's a built-in way to express your dissatisfaction over poor service (again, the tip). In fact, I think it's not only more appropriate, but probably more effective. I bet you anything Kate will shape-up (smile-wise) if the tip is affected, whereas we've already seen NO effect when the guests asked her to smile more.

Just so you know, I'm not defending Kate. I agree that she's sullen and judgmental, and I wouldn't like or appreciate her attitude if I were a charter guest. But I would convey that dissatisfaction through a smaller than usual tip, as I think is customary and appropriate.

[sasha206]

I think by broadening the subject, it's easy to defend criticizing the employee. Maybe in some industries or certain instances, it's ok to do that, and maybe it's even the right course of action. But here, we're talking about the service industry. More specifically, charter guests telling Kate, the chief steward, to smile. I found it patronizing and sexist. Esp. when, again I'll reference the service industry, there's a built-in way to express your dissatisfaction over poor service (again, the tip). In fact, I think it's not only more appropriate, but probably more effective. I bet you anything Kate will shape-up (smile-wise) if the tip is affected, whereas we've already seen NO effect when the guests asked her to smile more.

Just so you know, I'm not defending Kate. I agree that she's sullen and judgmental, and I wouldn't like or appreciate her attitude if I were a charter guest. But I would convey that dissatisfaction through a smaller than usual tip, as I think is customary and appropriate.

 

I hear you!  Although in an odd way, I do like her sullenness.  It feels more real and less reality star character. Still, yikes...

[LotusFlower]

I hear you!  Although in an odd way, I do like her sullenness.  It feels more real and less reality star character. Still, yikes...

That's hilarious! I don't know if I like her solemnity (pulling out yet another word to describe Ms. Kate!), but I do agree it makes the show interesting! I kinda can't believe she so brazenly insults the guests in her TH's, and so openly exposes her bitterness and jealousies. As you said: yikes!

[Almost 3000]

The way tips are handed out by splitting them evenly Kate would never know if she was getting less for being sullen or not. But her co-workers fearing for their tip might be on her if it appeared to be on-going thing and they thought she was the cause of a low tip envelope.

[LotusFlower]

The way tips are handed out by splitting them evenly Kate would never know if she was getting less for being sullen or not. But her co-workers fearing for their tip might be on her if it appeared to be on-going thing and they thought she was the cause of a low tip envelope.

Right. It's similar - if not the exact same thing - in a restaurant. Say you decide to leave a small tip because the food was awful or undercooked or took forever to arrive. That's what you should do, but then the waiter/waitress gets shafted, which stinks, but what other choice does the diner have?

Did anybody see the First Look for next week's episode? I can't figure out how to use the spoiler tag, so I won't say anything. (It's not about Kate, though).

[sasha206]

I'm really digging the cast this year.  I love Kat and Ben.  And this 47 year-old has a major crush on Kelly.  Andrew is a wash for me b/c he feels like producer pawn.

[OnceSane]

 

Did anybody see the First Look for next week's episode? I can't figure out how to use the spoiler tag, so I won't say anything. (It's not about Kate, though).

 

If you use the "Quick Reply", there is an icon of a circle with a slash through it.  Click it & then enter the text, when you press "OK" your text will be under a spoiler tag.  Alternately, you can type

INFO HERE[/spoiler ] (minus the space between the "r" in spoiler & the bracket).

 

 

Andrew is a wash for me b/c he feels like producer pawn.

 

MTE.  And he's annoying to boot.

[LotusFlower]

Thanks, OnceSane. The first option didn't work for me (are things maybe different if you're using a tablet?), but option number #2 is certainly easy enough! So if anyone wants a spoiler from the next episode, here you go:

The episode opens with the whole crew gathered for the debrief/tip from the last charter, and everyone, including Andrew, gets their full amount. Then the Captain asks to speak to Eddie and Andrew privately, where he proceeds to fire Andrew, telling him it just didn't work out, and he made arrangements to fly him home.

Edited August 30, 2014 by LotusFlower

[poeticlicensed]

I don't think asking the staff who actually wait on the passengers to smile is sexist, simply because those crewmembers happen to be women. None of the guys, save Ben and the captain, had any interactions with the guests and when they did, they both smiled. If I had a server with a bitchface on everytime she approached me, I'd be uncomfortable too. Especially if I was paying that amount of money. 

[SFoster21]

Right. It's similar - if not the exact same thing - in a restaurant. Say you decide to leave a small tip because the food was awful or undercooked or took forever to arrive. That's what you should do, but then the waiter/waitress gets shafted, which stinks, but what other choice does the diner have?

Did anybody see the First Look for next week's episode? I can't figure out how to use the spoiler tag, so I won't say anything. (It's not about Kate, though).

A diner has the choice to complain about the poor food; most establishments will correct that on the bill or offer another dish.

You DO have a choice other than stiffing the server.

[LotusFlower]

I don't think asking the staff who actually wait on the passengers to smile is sexist, simply because those crewmembers happen to be women. None of the guys, save Ben and the captain, had any interactions with the guests and when they did, they both smiled.

The perceived roles in society is where sexism comes into play. The guests told Kate to smile because yes, she looked grumpy or serious all the time and never smiled, and yes, she's in the hospitality business, so it's part of her job. But it's the expectation that women are supposed to always perform "service with a smile" that makes it sexist. That expectation is simply not put on men. People never tell men to smile more even if they're in the same role or job in the service industry. Why? Because no one notices it, no one expects it.

[poeticlicensed]

People never tell men to smile more even if they're in the same role or job in the service industry. Why? Because no one notices it, no one expects it.

 

Disagree. I worked in hospitality years ago and everyone was told to smile, regardless of gender. I have friends who work at the "happiest place on Earth" and everyone has to smile. Period. 

[tveyeonyou]

Sexist?  Seriously?  Maybe they didn't ask the men on the crew to smile when serving them BECAUSE THEY SMILE.  She's the only one of the crew who walks around with a constant surly face.  She seems to resent that she's SERVING people on a yacht instead of being SERVED.  

 

She's in the freaking hospitality industry.  If you don't want to be pleasant and treat your guests as if they are paying your salary for a job YOU signed up to do, don't be in the service industry.  She acts as though the guests are always beneath her, are always imposing on her.  We only see this in snippets on the show; they may see that for an entire trip they paid for.  I'm sure the guests that she depends on to tip her probably wonder why the hell she can't even be bothered to act as though she enjoys her job and being in the service industry.

 

***ETA*** Sorry -- I am sure I came off like a jerk.  I just mean that I don't think the question is sexist.  She's in an industry where people usually smile to their guests and not treat them like classless intrusion to her pursuit of...someone wealthy.

 

Sorry but I'm with you, I mean really, she wasn't kidnapped by a pirate ship forced to be a serving wench. Customer service is just that, service to the paying customer. Even if you're working a minimum wage job at the local food store it doesn't matter, being friendly to a paying customer is part of the job. Regardless of sex.

I totally agree that it wasn't a sexist question. Who wants a sour puss serving them as if it's an inconvenience, male or female? Especially when you're paying so much money for an enjoyable time.

Also, I don't think you came off as a jerk at all. :)

[rho]

Sorry but I'm with you, I mean really, she wasn't kidnapped by a pirate ship forced to be a serving wench. Customer service is just that, service to the paying customer. Even if you're working a minimum wage job at the local food store it doesn't matter, being friendly to a paying customer is part of the job. Regardless of sex.

I totally agree that it wasn't a sexist question. Who wants a sour puss serving them as if it's an inconvenience, male or female? Especially when you're paying so much money for an enjoyable time.

Also, I don't think you came off as a jerk at all. :)

 

I agree 100% with both of you. The #1 rule of hospitality is 'service with a smile' We've all done it at some point in our lives (hopefully) and it's really not that hard. That said, the guests voiced their concern in a snide and condescending way and Kate's reaction was very passive aggressive. But it wasn't sexist.

 

It may seem annoying to some, but at my job, I have Amy's demeanor. Most of my clients comment on how often I'm smiling and positive. If that were not the case, I would prefer they brought it to my attention. Considering the crew pools their tip, I think all of them would appreciate Kate taking the guest's advice and putting on a more welcoming and hospitable demeanor.

Edited August 30, 2014 by rho

[LotusFlower]

Disagree. I worked in hospitality years ago and everyone was told to smile, regardless of gender. I have friends who work at the "happiest place on Earth" and everyone has to smile. Period.

I wasn't referring to the rules of hospitality. Of course everyone - male and female - are told to smile and given the same rules. I was referring to how paying guests, the recipients of service or hospitality, or more broadly society have different expectations of men and women in the service industry. We're not talking about Kate - a female - by accident. It's subtle. If Ben or Eddie or Andrew or any other male crew member was as unsmiling (is that a word?) as Kate, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because none of the guests would have brought it up and it wouldn't be a storyline.

[poeticlicensed]

 If Ben or Eddie or Andrew or any other male crew member was as unsmiling (is that a word?) as Kate, we wouldn't be having this discussion, because none of the guests would have brought it up and it wouldn't be a storyline.

 

That's your opinion and I respectfully disagree and I am the first one to point out gender inequities. 

[LotusFlower]

That's your opinion and I respectfully disagree and I am the first one to point out gender inequities.

Sure, but what's not opinion, but rather fact, is how the guests chided Kate, a woman. And to me, that's not a coincidence.

[sasha206]

Sure, but what's not opinion, but rather fact, is how the guests chided Kate, a woman. And to me, that's not a coincidence.

 

Every time I see one of the male crew interact with the guests, they smile and seem friendly.  So I don't think it's hard for me to agree with you that it's a "fact."  

 

And if you really want to talk sexism, the most sexist guests where the women in episode 2 that wanted essentially a cabana boy so they put Andrew on the case.  Why aren't we talking about how degrading the women where to the male crew?

Edited August 31, 2014 by sasha206

[LotusFlower]

Every time I see one of the male crew interact with the guests, they smile and seem friendly.  So I don't think it's hard for me to agree with you that it's a "fact."  

 

Sorry, but I'm not understanding your point. Yes, the male crew members all seem friendly, unlike Kate. Meaning?

[sasha206]

Sorry, but I'm not understanding your point. Yes, the male crew members all seem friendly, unlike Kate. Meaning?

 

Meaning none of them seem to have given any of their guests a reason to complain about their not smiling at them.  They smile and treat the guests as though they are guests.  I'm sure Ben doesn't really enjoy having guests waltz in his workspace and have to give impromptu cooking lessons, but he made them feel welcomed, smiled, and the women enjoyed themselves. 

 

I don't think the guests really expect Kate to walk around with a perpetual smile on her face.  They just want her to not walk around looking like they are beneath her.

 

And I just realized how poorly I constructed my original sentence!  Anyway, we've beat the dead horse and will just have to agree to disagree!

Edited August 31, 2014 by sasha206

[LotusFlower]

Meaning none of them seem to have given any of their guests a reason to complain about their not smiling at them.  They smile and treat the guests as though they are guests.  I'm sure Ben doesn't really enjoy having guests waltz in his workspace and have to give impromptu cooking lessons, but he made them feel welcomed, smiled, and the women enjoyed themselves. 

 

I don't think the guests really expect Kate to walk around with a perpetual smile on her face.  They just want her to not walk around looking like they are beneath her.

 

And I just realized how poorly I constructed my original sentence!  Anyway, we've beat the dead horse and will just have to agree to disagree!

But again, I have no problem with the guests thinking Kate has a bad attitude and is even derelict in her duties by her unfriendly demeanor. In fact, I agree with them. Just to emphasize the point - if I were her boss, I'd probably fire her! That's how serious and not ok I think it is. My problem is with the guests telling her. That's the part I think is inappropriate. That's the part, and the only part, I find sexist. Talking about the male crew all being so friendly and warm is missing the point. Your example of the female guests ogling and treating Andrew like a cabana boy is instead the correct analogy. The guests were absolutely degrading him in a sexist way. One is blatant and obvious (the guests towards Andrew), and the other is much more subtle (the guests towards Kate), which is why it's harder to talk about.