Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"

[Dani-Ellie]

JMO, as much as she's "I love all ships!" and "Let's be friends!" on Twitter, once in an interview went straight up "yup, Hook shows up for her when everyone else lets her down" which I'm sure would irk me immensely if I didn't ship CS.

 

I think there's a difference between saying, "Let's all play nice, here" in a friendly way on social media and answering a question about what's actually happening on the show in an interview presumably about what's happening on the show, though. (I have no idea which interview this was, so if I'm talking out of turn, please let me know.) Because no matter what ship any one particular person ships, Captain Swan is canon (like, they've-shared-smoochies-canon), so of course Jen is going to be promoting Captain Swan in interviews. I don't think it's entirely fair to expect the actors to not answer questions about the development of a particular canon relationship just because it might annoy some fans who ship one character or another in a non-canon ship.

 

Regardless of the ship (and also, the word "ship" has now lost all meaning for me, haha), I don't think anyone should be subjected to hate because they shared something on Twitter that amused them.

[Stuffy]

I'd love to think Jen's trolling with her picture of Graham's jacket and the hook, but I know she's probably not. Ha ha. The usual suspects are of course ignoring the jacket and focusing on the hook.

[myril]

I read through the replies to the tweet (I know, I know), and the thing that surprised me is that most of the negative ones were criticizing JMo for implicitly supporting the relationship with Hook (because he hits women/is a date rapist/probably has an STD [???]), yet Colin tweeting it had zero negative comments. I realise he is considerably less famous and has half the followers, but why does the blowback never extend to him? I'm genuinely curious. 

 

Because JMo is seen as the one betraying the fans, Colin is just the rival so to speak to Lana or to Neal. Or I think that could be a possible approach why she is getting so much vitriol for whatever, be it saying something positive about CaptainSwan,  be it concerning SwanQueen or Neal or whatever. And JMo plays the main good hero of the show, and that rubs off on her as she is seen by some fans, so she has to do things better than everybody else. Emma is the constant sting particular in Regina's attempts for happiness, which  for SwanQueen creates the dilemma that Emma is a threat and the tool of happiness at the same time. That might rub off on the actress as well. Remember the hate Anna Gunn received for playing the by some very much hated Skyler White? Anna Gunn wrote an Op-Ed for the NYTimes about it, interesting read (though some of things she touches might not fit here).

 

Scrolling through on Twitter seen a few in my opinion inappropriate tweets of the kind blurring lines between character and actors (and I am not squeamish, I've seen a lot of strange and icky stuff online due to jobs I did). These are the ones giving me the real creeps (aside from death and rape threats, but thankfully haven't seen that so far). Stalker material.

[RadioGirl27]

I love how Jen is countering all the crap with the 101 smiles challenge.

And her spoilery pics from today are a proof of that!

[Camera One]

I finally looked at the tea.  Cinnamon-flavored tea might actually be more appropriate with apple turnovers.  Too bad Once Upon a Time doesn't have a theme-park selling Dreamshade-Infused and Nightroot-Infused Tea.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Camera One

[retrograde]

Because JMo is seen as the one betraying the fans, Colin is just the rival so to speak to Lana or to Neal. Or I think that could be a possible approach why she is getting so much vitriol for whatever, be it saying something positive about CaptainSwan,  be it concerning SwanQueen or Neal or whatever. 

But it seems like there are many people out there who passionately oppose the Captain Swan relationship regardless of other ships or preferences. Like they have genuine objections to it on its own terms -- most of which I don't share, but many of which I do understand. I really don't think all anti-CS folks are just disgruntled Swan Queen or Swanfire (is that even the right portmanteau?) shippers. So are we to conclude it is just Swan Queen and Nealfire contingents getting angry at the actors? Is it gender bias? I dunno. 

 

Remember the hate Anna Gunn received for playing the by some very much hated Skyler White? Anna Gunn wrote an Op-Ed for the NYTimes about it, interesting read (though some of things she touches might not fit here).

Ah yeah, that was such a good piece. I agree not all of it is necessarily entirely applicable here, but it's still something I think anyone who harasses actors over things they do on screen or say about their characters in interviews should read.

[Camera One]

It's difficult to describe fans who prefer certain couples with the same brush since there are varying degrees of preference for couplings.  I would imagine that the most passionate and angry fans right now are the ones who are bitter and disappointed that their preferred couple did not happen.  Tweeting rude comments to actors is not okay but the sentiment of disappointment is understandable.

 

If there are other opposers of Captain Swan, I suppose it could be people who believe Emma is too good for Hook and they should bring in a better love interest.  But I don't see this group being angry enough because the disappointment part wouldn't be as strong.  

 

No matter what, some people just don't seem to understand the actors don't write the stories.

Edited September 13, 2014 by Camera One

[maryle]

I really think it is more profound than that here it is actually bullying from a particular group of obsessed fans who really live in a bubble (like cult mentality ) and simply reject anything that can confront what they believe in Jen is really a victim in this situation.

 

I really believe there people out there who are convincing themself of a certain image. They are bullying her because of that.  When she act against their  own fantasy they can accept the reality. The best example is their hate for Hook  or the fact her and  Colin are friend. So each time that she make something that broke their fantasy  ( supporting captainswan) about her they simply lash out.

Adding that some of them love Regina not Emma.

 I have no idea what her private life is  I do not care but these people are scary.

I do not follow Jen or any of the actors , personally I like not knowing about personnal live of the actors at all.

[Mari]

 I have no idea what her private life is  I do not care but these people are scary.

I do not follow Jen or any of the actors , personally I like not knowing about personnal live of the actors at all.

Me, either.  I've discovered if I know too much, it makes it hard to watch them acting and see the character, instead of themselves. (Or at least their public persona.)  I find the whole idea of following her on twitter only to berate her for perceived slights against . . . whatever . . . bizarre and creepy.

[maryle]

Me, either.  I've discovered if I know too much, it makes it hard to watch them acting and see the character, instead of themselves. (Or at least their public persona.)

 

Totally.

I mean that a big problem with star like Angelina Jolie and ....It is hard to see the character behing the star.

So I Just laugh at this strange person who follow every step of Lana JMO or Bieber... and really believe to know them. The reality is celebrities are archetype and fans project their fantasm on them.

 We only know what they want you to know about them nothing else.

But I'd love to be rich like them sure but the fame thing, I never could live like that.

[Dani-Ellie]

The truly awful thing here is, Jen, Adam, and Colin were trying to give an attaboy/attagirl to some creative fans, and this is what it's turned into. It's like, this stuff is supposed to be fun, you know? I don't understand the need to piss in everyone else's Corn Flakes.

[BoPeeps]

While making access to everyone famous or otherwise as easy as typing140 characters of fractured grammar,Twitter is the cesspool of social media. People act and say the things they say because they can easily get away with graceless, ignorant behavior. It is exactly what you can expect when no one is held accountable for their words. They are extremely insecure or the dregs of intelligence in some cases. In others, just fucking ugly people.

 

There will always be people who, regardless of how moronic they look and sound, just prefer to be witless killjoys for everything in life.

 

The rest of the world can best annoy/destroy them by remaining quite capable of joy.

Edited September 14, 2014 by BoPeeps

[FurryFury]

But it seems like there are many people out there who passionately oppose the Captain Swan relationship regardless of other ships or preferences.

 

I don't think people who aren't invested that much would so vocal. In my experience, the overwhelming majority of participators in a shipping drama are shippers of other pairings.

Or, basically, what Camera One said.

[myril]

But it seems like there are many people out there who passionately oppose the Captain Swan relationship regardless of other ships or preferences. Like they have genuine objections to it on its own terms -- most of which I don't share, but many of which I do understand. I really don't think all anti-CS folks are just disgruntled Swan Queen or Swanfire (is that even the right portmanteau?) shippers. So are we to conclude it is just Swan Queen and Nealfire contingents getting angry at the actors? Is it gender bias? I dunno.

 

You're right, there might be some not shipping another couple, I don't think it is just about shipping either, and didn't want to reduce it to a jealousy factor (which  might play a role though too for some). If people have such a huge problem with Hook and Emma, his persuasion of Emma being at times like an example for the ill advice of Pick Up Artists (PUA) , or dangerously close to, it is interesting that they attack the person acting the character who in their view of things is the victim and not the one who is portraying the bad guy. Not surprising maybe seeing how often victims are blamed. It's like saying, the bad guy is the bad guy and we don't expect him to act differently, so why waste time with him, but the victim should have taken better care of herself and be thankful for all the white knights now stepping up for her. Now in this case writers and actors don't share the view of some in the audience, Emma is no victim of Hook, and it's a love story, so JMo has no reason to not support CaptainSwan and share funny tidbits about it - but it might be taken as even more offensive that she doesn't the slightest agrees with seeing Emma as victim here. So JMo is betraying the fans, while Collins is uninteresting.

 

Gender biased? Maybe, could play a role, though hard to tell. In general men are probably more often attacked online for what they do and say, which statistically is not a surprise, seeing that men are more vocal, active and in more public places (like Twitter, even Facebook to a degree), but attacks against women are probably more personal and vicious. More personal is in a way contradictive, because women are sometimes attacked merely because they are women, but the attacks are made very personal. Not to mention that women frequently are sexually harassed online as well, it doesn't count what they say or do just how they look. The latter is an experience men don't make to the same extent. Both might experience he restrictions of gender roles, men have to be tough, aggressive decisive, active, manly, fight and defend their positions, at least it is seen as okay if they are, they are eventually joked at, when showing vulnerability and sensitivity, while women have to know their place, are called out as aggressive when they make a point and stand for it, hysterical when they don't hide that emotions might be involved, cold when they do hide it, they are touchy when they don't answer friendly. Online and offline is not different in this. 

 

In this fandom the interesting difference to something like Breaking Bad (and other shows) is, we have female leads, one actress is a fan favorite who seems to get seldom such vitriol while the other lead is frequently attacked and might have even what could be called downright hate-fans, they love to hate her.

 

I really think it is more profound than that here it is actually bullying from a particular group of obsessed fans who really live in a bubble (like cult mentality ) and simply reject anything that can confront what they believe in Jen is really a victim in this situation.

 

I really believe there people out there who are convincing themself of a certain image. They are bullying her because of that.  When she act against their  own fantasy they can accept the reality. The best example is their hate for Hook  or the fact her and  Colin are friend. So each time that she make something that broke their fantasy  ( supporting captainswan) about her they simply lash out.

 

I agree, think as well that images play a role. If someone doesn't behave like we expect them to many might simply react surprised or maybe disappointed, but some react aggressive. It's a betrayal of their glorious image they have of the person.

 

Do you know that there a few people writing fan ficition about real people, about celebrities, sportstars, musicians, TV and movie stars mostly, so called real people fiction (RPF)? And yes, not some fantasy about meeting them for a day, invite them for a coffee and have a chat about their work kind but the kinky kind. fanfiction.net doesn't allow such fan fiction as it could be rated as violation of personal rights, but other places do. There are stories about some of the cast of Once as well, including JMo and Lana Parrilla. Creepy. I mean, it's one thing to have fantasies like that eventually, but to share them with public. Oh well.

 

While making access to everyone famous or otherwise as easy as typing140 characters of fractured grammar,Twitter is the cesspool of social media. People act and say the things they say because they can easily get away with graceless, ignorant behavior. It is exactly what you can expect when no one is held accountable for their words. They are extremely insecure or the dregs of intelligence in some cases. In others, just fucking ugly people.

 

People can be hold accountable any time, it can by addressed, they can be addressed, and if it goes into downright harassment and legally liable areas one can get police involved, though to a  different degree depending on country. And different from what a lot of people think, a lot of online bullying and trolling is not done anonymous or anonymous only on a superficial level. It's rather prejudgmental that bullies and trolls are extremely insecure or "dregs of intelligence".  You might be surprised who is doing that kind of stuff.

 

Edited September 14, 2014 by katusch

[sharky]

 

Do you know that there a few people writing fan ficition about real people, about celebrities, sportstars, musicians, TV and movie stars mostly, so called real people fiction (RPF)? And yes, not some fantasy about meeting them for a day, invite them for a coffee and have a chat about their work kind but the kinky kind. fanfiction.net doesn't allow such fan fiction as it could be rated as violation of personal rights, but other places do. There are stories about some of the cast of Once as well, including JMo and Lana Parrilla. Creepy. I mean, it's one thing to have fantasies like that eventually, but to share them with public. Oh well.

Archive Of Our Own allows RPF, but it's not my cup of tea. I would assume the same of dinosaur/human smut fic, but I haven't sought that out yet [and yes, it does exist]. Of course, I also write Once fanfic, which some people might find weird or whatever so to each their own.

 

Oh gosh, I just used the phrase "cup of tea" -- sorry! Didn't mean to keep beating that dead horse! ;)

 

I was thinking about this last night though. There is definitely a line between being a fanatic and being a creeper, and I wonder if in this age of technology, younger fans who have constantly been surrounded by it are having trouble distinguishing what is and isn't appropriate since they've never grown up with tech boundaries per se. I mean, I got my first email address when I went to college. So are you all finding these are young creeper fans or just creeper fans? I try to not look at the nonsense responses to make a determination.

[Writing Wrongs]

I follow some of the actors on Twitter, just for the bts stuff they post. But it annoys/creeps me that a lot of the posts to them from fans are all "I LOVE YOU!" "DO YOU LOVE ME?!" "DON'T IGNORE ME!" blah blah. It's bizarre. It's this thing we have with celebrity that we think we know them because we see them on tv or in movies.

 

I used to be obsessed that way. I had to watch every entertainment news show and know every detail of their lives. I finally just had to stop. I don't give a shit what they do in their personal lives anymore. Twitter does make it easy to connect to them and get heard. I've fallen into posting negative things to actors on occasion, because I know that they may actually read it. Mainly, I try to stay out of it.

[sharky]

I follow some of the actors on Twitter, just for the bts stuff they post. But it annoys/creeps me that a lot of the posts to them from fans are all "I LOVE YOU!" "DO YOU LOVE ME?!" "DON'T IGNORE ME!" blah blah. It's bizarre. It's this thing we have with celebrity that we think we know them because we see them on tv or in movies.

 

Ugh. I hate when actors respond to those too. It's always like "Can you say hi to me?" Oh for the love, good for you that you got an actor I follow to junk up my Twitter feed so he could say hi to you. I had to turn off "See responses to other users" or something because of that.

Edited September 14, 2014 by sharky

[YaddaYadda]

I was thinking about this last night though. There is definitely a line between being a fanatic and being a creeper, and I wonder if in this age of technology, younger fans who have constantly been surrounded by it are having trouble distinguishing what is and isn't appropriate since they've never grown up with tech boundaries per se. I mean, I got my first email address when I went to college. So are you all finding these are young creeper fans or just creeper fans? I try to not look at the nonsense responses to make a determination.

 

 

Younger fans might have issues and they might not understand fully.  I mean I've been there as a 12 year old watching something and I thought the character and the actor were the same and couldn't really grasp why so and so came back from the dead (don't judge me, I really wasn't allowed to watch TV).

 

So maybe the line is blurred for the youngsters especially with social media.  But what's the adults' excuse?  They are supposed to set an example for those who are younger than them.  A lot of adults hide behind their keyboard, scream and yell and bully actors or other walk of life regular joes.  How do you deal with those lunatics?

 

When I look at all the bullying campaigns and see with social media...yeah...we're a long way from eradicating that trend.

[Serena]

Poor Jen responded to one person "I haven't ignored anyone. I posted a photo with Lana last week and Colin this week. Just posting when I work w/ people."

[maryle]

There are stories about some of the cast of Once as well, including JMo and Lana Parrilla. Creepy. I mean, it's one thing to have fantasies like that eventually, but to share them with public

 

I promised myself not writing anymore on that particular subject. But I couldn't resist to answer you're post.

2 months ago I  was in an  ignorant bliss about all this crap in the fandom.  In fact I didn't even know what the word fandom mean ( I'm french) maybe because I'm from Québec I was preserve of this disturbing stuff. We do have a star system but nothing as big as in the U.S.

But for fun this summer I read some stuff about O.N.C.E and eventually I find out some wild stuff.

(gossip...)

I had to stop myself because it was too much information for me. 

 I learned that Lana and Jen was  mostly victim of that but also by extension Sean, Colin and M.R.j.

I  never could read any fanfic about real life celebrities that just weird to me

[Amerilla]

In terms of how people interact with "stars," the only big difference is the medium. Pre-Internet, the "I LOVE YOU!! DO YOU LOVE ME?" stuff came in the form of written letters. Now people just don't have to go to the hassle of finding an address and a stamp. Although I'm sure there are still those who kick it old-school as well.

In a sense, even this idea of real-life shipping isn't particularly new. Fifty years ago, the studios would present stars (or stars in the making) as a "couple," even when they were pretty clearly with someone else or gay or just plain not interested. And it's not like it's unusual for stars on shows to straight-up fall for on another on set. Josh and Ginny, for example.

I'm not saying that things like RPF or tweet attacks are healthy or appropriate, but I think there's a tendency to see it as something new and unusual, when is really just the extreme version of long-established fandom interactions with actors.

[stealinghome]

I agree that this behavior isn't particularly new--the difference is that the Internet a) probably just allows for a greater volume (at least 20% more than paper) and b) just makes it so that others can see it, whereas back in the day, who knew if someone sent a nasty note other than that person? I also don't at all buy that it's just young kids. Maybe the OUAT fandom skews younger, but go to the Facebook page of ANY show and you'll be appalled at what grown-ass people say about the actors/writers/etc.

I do think one of the problems specific to the hate JMo gets--aside from the fact that people are assholes, of course--is that some people have convinced themselves that they are Crusading For Social Justice when they send nasty tweets her way. People who see a strong connection between Hook and sexual violence, for example, seem to be telling themselves that they are Fighting Sexual Violence every time they say something really nasty about Captain Swan to JMo. People who ardently ship Swan Queen seem to think they are Fighting Homophobia when they attack JMo for not gushing over Swan Queen. Etc. And I think convincing themselves that they're taking some sort of principled stand lends those people a certain amount of self-righteousness and convinces them that they're justified in *anything* they say, because they are obviously working for a noble cause, doncha know? Now, I think 99% of that is just an excuse/rationalization people hide behind to excuse their own poor behavior--I'm pretty sure there are roughly 6384948 ways to fight homophobia and domestic violence (which *are* serious real-world issues) that are more productive than "send an actress (who isn't even the one writing this stuff--it still wouldn't be right, but I would at least understand it better if the writers were getting the hate) a nasty tweet"--up to and including sending a nice peaceful tweet that says "I find x thing in the show problematic, can we have a dialogue on it?"--but I also think that's why some of the fans are so tenacious. In their minds, it's become not about just the show, but social justice.

Edited September 14, 2014 by stealinghome

[FurryFury]

Yeah, the social justice excuse is becoming old very fast. It also happens in other fandoms. You wouldn't believe the backlash the writers of a certain video game are getting for daring to make a few characters straight, instead of bi/gay (in a game that also has gay and bi characters, in a proportion much larger then IRL to boot!)

Edited September 14, 2014 by FurryFury

[Serena]

I think social justice is a perfect excuse. If ship I hate=domestic violence and ship I love=gay rights, then it's not about my personal preference! It's about justice, and the people who disagree aren't just disagreeing, they're bullying me. I've actually seen it in the replies to Jen's latest tweet: Lana is "campaigning to stop domestic violence" while Jen is posting about CS and so, apparently, supports DV?? 

But you know how it's CLEAR this is just an excuse? Whatever the problematic aspects you may see in CS, there are at least a couple other storylines that are much more clearly DV, like Regina/Graham and Rumple/Milah and Rumbelle. But you can tell those people don't give a crap about that.

[Camera One]

In terms of how people interact with "stars," the only big difference is the medium. Pre-Internet, the "I LOVE YOU!! DO YOU LOVE ME?" stuff came in the form of written letters. Now people just don't have to go to the hassle of finding an address and a stamp. Although I'm sure there are still those who kick it old-school as well.

 

Those are uncomfortable to read as well.  I agree people have always been starstruck, maybe lining up to get an autograph, but now with social media, these celebrities are extremely accessible.  Technically, one could tweet a hundred messages asking, "Please please please retweet my message".

 

 

 

I agree that this behavior isn't particularly new--the difference is that the Internet a) probably just allows for a greater volume (at least 20% more than paper) and b) just makes it so that others can see it, whereas back in the day, who knew if someone sent a nasty note other than that person? I also don't at all buy that it's just young kids. Maybe the OUAT fandom skews younger, but go to the Facebook page of ANY show and you'll be appalled at what grown-ass people say about the actors/writers/etc.

 

Good point about how nowadays, the abusive messages are seen by all.  So the platform for people spewing hate or pursuing a certain agenda has a built-in audience.  You're right about adults I think as well.  With the internet so accessible now, a lot of adults are able to go online during work hours or if they're waiting around for a ride or for the bus, and they can post.  Comments to news articles are so appalling... so many of the comments are rude, racist, sexist, etc.  So it's no wonder for TV shows, where fans might feel an even stronger connection, that they feel like they have a right to send hateful messages to the people involved in production.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Camera One

[kili]

So the platform for people spewing hate or pursuing a certain agenda has a built-in audience.

 

It also has a built in cheering squad. Before, some people might second guess themselves. But with the social media, people of a sort of like mind can gather together and whip each other into a frenzy. It becomes a postive feedback loop that reinforces perceptions as normal.  Before, somebody might sit on their own and question whether they are right - now they have a 10/20/1000 buddies/other posters telling them they are (and help them to develop strategies and arguments).  They can develop a gang mentality.

[retrograde]

Yeah, the social justice excuse is becoming old very fast. It also happens in other fandoms. You wouldn't believe the backlash the writers of a certain video game are getting for daring to make a few characters straight, instead of bi/gay (in a game that also has gay and bi characters, in a proportion much larger then IRL to boot!)

I actually think it's really good that people are pushing for more diversity in all forms of media -- TV shows, movies, video games. There is a problem, and people do need to demand -- loudly -- that the people behind them do better. And this includes OuaT. "Social justice" isn't necessarily an "excuse" -- a lot of people have really legitimate concerns and I think they're right to raise them. I don't know which game you're speaking about in particular, but in general, if people have a grievance, the writers and creators and publishers are the people they should be directing them to. The difference with OuaT is that people are directing their grievances at the actors. It would be like getting angry at the voice artists or coders that worked on a video game. 

[FurryFury]

I actually think it's really good that people are pushing for more diversity in all forms of media -- TV shows, movies, video games.

 

There is a fine line between pushing for diversity and using it as an excuse to mold the characters into the shape these fans prefer.

 

I don't know which game you're speaking about in particular, but in general, if people have a grievance, the writers and creators and publishers are the people they should be directing them to.

 

The problem is there was diversity, people just didn't get to romance the characters they wanted and started to loudly complain the writers dared to make at least a few straight. Despite queer characters being already even more represented.

 

Now, Once doesn't have good representation, but it's quite clear many SQ fans don't actually care about that (otherwise they'd be up in arms over, say, the Mulan problem), they just want their ship and will mask it as a social problem because it makes it sound so much better.

[stealinghome]

but in general, if people have a grievance, the writers and creators and publishers are the people they should be directing them to. The difference with OuaT is that people are directing their grievances at the actors.

Agreed, but I also think the sheer level of vitriol is also a real problem. I absolutely agree that creators should be called out for problematic aspects of their creations--but there's a big difference between saying "I find your representation (or non-representation, as the case may be!) of [x issue] problematic, can we have a dialogue about it?" and "UR SO HOMOPHOBIC AND SUPPORT DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, YOU SUCK." One is significantly more constructive than the other, and more likely to get results.

Edited September 14, 2014 by stealinghome

[Dani-Ellie]

I also feel like attaching a social justice type importance to something as benign as a blend of tea makes the real dialogue that much harder. Because c'mon, it's a blend of tea, for crying out loud, but then the dialogue becomes domestic violence this and homophobia that, and it's impossible to argue against that without becoming labeled as homophobic or pro-domestic violence (and believe me, I am neither, but I am not touching that debate with those in the middle of it with a ten-foot-pole, because I know how it would go). Hiding behind a social injustice is simply a way of confusing the issue, which is its own logical fallacy.

 

And if we want to talk domestic violence, I have plenty of issues with Swan Queen being a healthy romantic relationship due to Regina's, gee I don't know, attempts to murder Emma. Like, she has literally said, "As long as you're alive, Henry will never be mine" (emphasis mine) right to Emma's face and said "Looks like getting rid of a baby just made my to-do list" (emphasis also mine) in reference to Emma's birth. From my perspective, if the thinking here is Hook is an example of domestic violence, so is Regina, so could that maybe enter the dialogue, too?

[Mari]

From my perspective, if the thinking here is Hook is an example of domestic violence, so is Regina, so could that maybe enter the dialogue, too?

Yes. However, we often have a societal blind spot to abuse--domestic and sexual--done by women.  Regina should enter the dialogue, but for some it's possible it doesn't simply because they're not used to thinking of women doing those things. 

[retrograde]

Oh look, I totally agree that a lot of people are just being jerks and their grievances have very little to do with actual homophobia or issues of representation or whatever. I guess I am just annoyed that a bunch of MRA-types have turned the phrase "social justice" into a negative. But that's really a different discussion. 

 

ANYWAY. I just came across this highly relevant interview with Jane Espenson from last month that I don't think has ever been posted on these boards, where she directly addresses issues of queerbaiting and fan reaction. I don't know if I agree with everything she says here, but I have a lot of respect for her, and I'm sure she has a much better understanding of what it'll realistically take to get mainstream Hollywood to step into the 21st century than I do. Definitely worth a read.

Edited September 14, 2014 by retrograde

[Rumsy4]

People are now tweeting SQ tea and OQ tea at Adam and Jen. Hilarious! Ship Wars take to tea as the weapon of choice! There are people still complaining to Adam that "only" Lana's doing the afterellen interview (which I doubt she is, anyway), and not Jen. These people have truly lost all sense of perspective in life.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Rumsy4

[Serena]

There's no way I believe the people who are tweeting to Jen about "roofied (!) tea" are actually interested in a conversation about rape culture; they're just trying to bash a couple they dislike in the loudest way possible. People actually concerned about rape do not, in fact, call things "roofied" when they know perfectly well they aren't, because that would undermine the actual problem.

That's like the people who were saying that Charming grabbing Regina's arm to pull her out of arm's way in 205 was "violence against women" - like no, you're just trying to find a way to woobify Regina and attack the evil, evil Charmings, and you aren't fooling me.

Edited September 14, 2014 by Serena

[Dani-Ellie]

Completely agree. Doing things like whining over a blend of tea makes me wonder how much of it is actual concern for Problematic Social Issue and how much of it using Problematic Social Issue to force their own vision into the narrative. "Well, if we make them think they're playing into Problematic Social Issue, they'll have to change their minds!" Because I'm willing to bet a vast majority of these people would not like an actual in-depth look into domestic violence and abuse as depicted on the show because their Golden Child of a favorite character has perpetrated a good amount of it herself. (Or do Regina's gaslighting of her son and her attempts to kill his entire family to keep him all to herself not count because she's Regina?)

Edited September 14, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Stuffy]

Jen responds to that "fan" and now that "fan" and her groupies are playing the victim. How dare that horrible Jen Morrison call someone out for being negative and wrong. She's such a bully or so say the actual bullies. If you don't want a celebrity to respond to you, don't tweet them in the first place.

I could never be a celebrity because those people that spam you with notice me tweets I'd tweet back something rude like, "I do notice you but you're being annoying so I'm trying to ignore you."

Edited September 14, 2014 by Stuffy

[Jean]

Please I call 99.99% of these so-call social justice concerns BS. It's all shipping agenda or character agenda. It's clear as glass. It's just psychos trying to mask their idiocy and craziness behind some noble cause. They're just plain rabid hypocrites. No need for a deeper analysis than that.

I want to believe people that are really passionate about whatever real life cause they take up would have something better to do than sqaut on twitter all day and write nasty messages about a dumb fictional tv show.

And you know what? A&E only have themselves to blame. They're the ones hardcore selling the "Woegina is the biggest victim ever" crap and the ones drinking their kool-aid are the type of fans they're cultivating. Remember Ginny's interview where she said she was shocked that people were coming up to her and yelling at her for being mean to poor poor Woegina? I just feel bad for the actors getting the blowback from the psycho fans.

And for those waving the rape and violence flag yet are die hard fans of rapist murderer Woegina, or Rumbelle or statutory rapist Neal? That's supposed to be taken seriously? Unless you're only a fan of Charming and no one else of the main cast then yeah it's agenda alright.

[myril]

People are now tweeting SQ tea and OQ tea at Adam and Jen. Hilarious! Ship Wars take to tea as the weapon of choice!

 

Can we call that now a tea party? 

 

Please I call 99.99% of these so-call social justice concerns BS. It's all shipping agenda or character agenda. It's clear as glass. It's just psychos trying to mask their idiocy and craziness behind some noble cause. They're just plain rabid hypocrites. No need for a deeper analysis than that.

 

Wouldn't agree an 99.99 percent, some people have voiced concerns in a decent manner. Not in the "convo" going on at the moment so much though. But I agree, issues OUaT has in some ways are blown way out of proportion by a few. 

Edited September 14, 2014 by katusch

[Rumsy4]

Jen responds to that "fan" and now that "fan" and her groupies are playing the victim. How dare that horrible Jen Morrison call someone out for being negative and wrong. She's such a bully or so say the actual bullies. If you don't want a celebrity to respond to you, don't tweet them in the first place.

I had to look. I'm disgusted. Many of these people have such a low twisted opinion of JMo! It's appalling! I suppose fanatical devotion to their ship has blinded them, but really! And I really don't get why they worship Lana, because many of them praise Lana in the same breath as berating JMo. I'm not saying they should start harassing Lana the same way, but there is an obvious bias. Funnily enough, Lana has been vocal in her support of OQ. It really must be the Woegina-effect carry over.

[InsertWordHere]

Tea is supposed to be calming. Uncle Iroh would be ashamed.

 

I don't think all of these people are faking their social concerns. However, I'd believe they were a bit more sincere if some of the loudest CS detractors weren't also the people saying things like Milah deserved to be killed for leaving Rumple. Or that Emma and Regina no longer care about Henry because they're in relationships now.  Or that Emma should be with Neal or Regina no matter what they've done to her in the past because they share a child. Talk about sending a bad message.

 

That's not even getting into what I've seen them say about Captain Swan fans AKA actual real life people who, according to popular anti-CS bloggers, are always women (usually young girls) who (please excuse my phrasing; this is an actual quote) "cream their panties" over Colin O'Donoghue. CSers will even, and I'm sorry to even type this but I have actually seen people say this on tumblr, regret shipping CS when they themselves are inevitable raped. I'm not even going to get into the weird hypothetical victim blaming and victim wishing (WTF?) made by those trying to "prove" how wrong it is that a tv couple kissed (seriously WTF?) while simultaneously claiming to be against a culture that leads to victim blaming and the justification of rape, because that is the grossest and most out of touch argument I have ever seen. But as to their other points, what they are essentially saying is that CSers are obviously all straight women who are sexually attracted to CO'D and they're too stupid and lustful and blinded by an attractive face to determine for themselves what is problematic and what is not. Such concern for serious issues. Such anti-heteronormative thinking. Such feminism. Very impressive.

 

Here's a hint: if I take the proper nouns out of those arguments and they start to sound like something a radical Family Rights group would say about the sanctity of single-unit families or something an MRA on reddit would say about a woman who rejected them, those arguments are not advocating for Women's Rights as much as their authors think they are and their loud proclamations of  profound concern will not be taken seriously. And the fact that none of their more reasonable shipmates or anti-shipmates on tumblr or twitter call them out for their behavior is worrying. It's a hive mind mentality and just feeds into their belief that they are social crusaders. I've debated with some of the more vocal anti-CSers on tumblr (admittedly more on the SF side than the SQ side) on more than one occasion, and strangely, I've never had to resort to derogatory language about entire groups of people in my arguments. If ever did, I would hope I would be called out by everyone, not just people who favor an opposing ship.

 

And whining about tea promotion or which ship has more twitter mentions is just immature.

Edited September 15, 2014 by InsertWordHere

[retrograde]

Smart or stupid? I'm not sure.

 

[Camera One]

If he's going to do that, might as well go full out.  I think there are about 20+ pairings he forgot.  #FrankenWolf?  So they're really going to give Red and Dr. Whale some screentime this year?  I wouldn't bet on it...

[Dani-Ellie]

Or that Emma should be with Neal or Regina no matter what they've done to her in the past because they share a child.

 

Ugh, this one in particular goes up my ass sideways. I was a child of divorce, and I fully believe that one of the best things my parents ever did for us was get divorced. There was never any abuse on any side of it, but my parents weren't happy. The tension was so thick in the house that you could cut it with a knife, and as such, we kids were walking on eggshells every single minute both my parents were home at the same time. We were all miserable. And I completely get that this is my experience and that not all experiences are like mine, but not all experiences with co-parents are orange juice and sunshine, either. An emotionally healthy family is a happy one, and if one parent has been deeply hurt by another, those feelings aren't always going to be assuaged just because they share a child.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Dani-Ellie

[Serena]

If he's going to do that, might as well go full out.  I think there are about 20+ pairings he forgot.  #FrankenWolf?  So they're really going to give Red and Dr. Whale some screentime this year?  I wouldn't bet on it...

I know. I'm tempted to be like: what about #CaptainCharming? That's misandry!

[Stuffy]

Where's my Mad Swan at?!! I guess I need to go rant at Adam!

Just Kidding but seriously Jen and Sebastian had some crazy chemistry.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Stuffy

[Rumsy4]

I feel Adam only did that because Kalinda Vazquez mentioned only CS, OQ, and Frozen in her tweet about S4 (and got harassed for it, need I add?). But she's been graciously replying the more polite ones. https://twitter.com/kalindavazquez/status/511261165658578944

Why can't people tweet what they want? They want equal representation of all ships in all things. I wonder at the skewed perspective with which these people watch the show, and if this carries over into their day to day life.

[Camera One]

I feel Adam only did that because Kalinda Vazquez mentioned only CS, OQ, and Frozen in her tweet about S4

 

Well realistically, those are the only three things we'll be getting for the next 4 months.

Edited September 15, 2014 by Camera One

[stealinghome]

Which is exactly why Once is fast slipping from "appointment television" status for me....

[Rumsy4]

Well at least she was setting realistic expectations then, unlike Adam and Eddy, who have their head up in the clouds. ;-) I do think Rumple is going to be a big part of this arc, though. At least he's not going to be crying over a doll! lol

[sharky]

Dammit, Adam! It's not Hooked Queen, it's Hooker Queen! I'm off to go write a tweet telling Adam what an idiot he is.

And seriously, no Hooker Gold? That's so homophobic!

[end sarcasm]