S01.E09: The Green Council

[Meredith Quill]

Quote

Episode Synopsis:

While Alicent enlists Cole and Aemond to track down Aegon, Otto gathers the great houses of Westeros to affirm their allegiance.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books to date. 

[Constantinople]

Interesting setup for the Storming of the Dragonpit

[Oscirus]

Why are they going out of their way to make it look like the women wanted to avoid war at all costs but the evil men keep forcing it even though its not necessary? These changes are to the detriment of these characters

[Meredith Quill]

To make Alicent more sympathetic I expect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[SeanC]

The general character/dialogue on this show is consistently pretty good, but I've by now noticed that the action pieces are often a bit contrived.

[magdalene]

So far they seem to have made Aemond less of a psycho.  We may soon see whether this is correct.

[ursula]

23 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Why are they going out of their way to make it look like the women wanted to avoid war at all costs but the evil men keep forcing it even though its not necessary? These changes are to the detriment of these characters

In the attempt to make this a “feminist struggle against the evil patriarchy” they’ve stripped the women of agency.

[ybrik]

Not sure about the ending with Rhaenys flying out the dragon pit during the coronation because of her just sparing the Greens and killing innocent common folk Though as mentioned by a previous poster that this could be a good set up to the attack on the pit. 

Also I am going to assume Larys wasn’t able to kill Mysaria. However, she is going to be pissed off which could definitely lead to Blood and Cheese. I had wondered how she was going to be changing to more a Black’s follower like in the book without the whole blaming for the miscarriage that was reported in the book. 

[RobertDeSneero]

44 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Why are they going out of their way to make it look like the women wanted to avoid war at all costs but the evil men keep forcing it even though its not necessary? These changes are to the detriment of these characters

Maybe they're setting up a contrast where Rhaenyra is quite the opposite next week and wants to rain down fire and death on the Greens.

[Meredith Quill]

Yeah, Lady Misery is deffo going to assume Otto tried to kill her and so do a heel turn. I wonder if she'll be scarred from burns to add to the drama?

1 minute ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Maybe they're setting up a contrast where Rhaenyra is quite the opposite next week and wants to rain down fire and death on the Greens.

We can but hope.

[Oscirus]

Just now, RobertDeSneero said:

Maybe they're setting up a contrast where Rhaenyra is quite the opposite next week and wants to rain down fire and death on the Greens.

doubt it

The previews seem to indicate that Daemons urging a war while she appears to be in favor of submitting

[Constantinople]

I know Fire & Blood is supposed to be incomplete, inaccurate and biased, but I find it hard to believe a dragon bursting out of the floor during Aegon's coronation somehow passed unnoticed.

[ybrik]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I know Fire & Blood is supposed to be incomplete, inaccurate and biased, but I find it hard to believe a dragon bursting out of the floor during Aegon's coronation somehow passed unnoticed.

Yeah that is why I didn’t really like the ending 

[Dac22]

14 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I know Fire & Blood is supposed to be incomplete, inaccurate and biased, but I find it hard to believe a dragon bursting out of the floor during Aegon's coronation somehow passed unnoticed.

Not to mention they're about two decades off Criston being named Lord Commander despite there being written documents of it.

Speaking of which, I found all the Kingmaker stuff to be underwhelming. Not only did Criston just get the job, but it's clear he only got it because he was Alicent's stooge rather than earning it. 

Criston actually had some clout in the books as he had been the Lord Commander for years which gave him crowning Aegon such weight. It also explained how he 'split the Kingsguard' as he had already been the one leading them prior to everything.

Edited October 17, 2022 by Dac22

[SeanC]

21 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I know Fire & Blood is supposed to be incomplete, inaccurate and biased, but I find it hard to believe a dragon bursting out of the floor during Aegon's coronation somehow passed unnoticed.

Presumably because that didn't happen in the world of ASOIAF.  It happened in the TV universe.

[Meredith Quill]

Indeed, the books are the books and the show is the show. It's not easy sometimes coming to terms with separating the two, but you'd drive yourself potty if you don't manage to do so.

[Constantinople]

It's just a little odd that Septon Eustace didn't mention it given that he witnessed it and is one of the main sources for F&B. I vaguely recall HotD was referred to as in marketing or interviews with showrunners as the objective truth based on F&B. Not that I plan to track that down.

So far when the show has added something that wasn't in the book -- Aegon's Dream, Rhaenyra and Criston seeing the white hart -- it made sense why it didn't show up in the book given that the book is supposed to be an in universe history. But this had far too many witnesses including one of the chroniclers on which F&B is based.

[ursula]

8 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I vaguely recall HotD was referred to as in marketing or interviews with showrunners as the objective truth based on F&B. Not that I plan to track that down.

The show debunks that out of the gate by making Alicent and Rhaenyra the same age so I don’t know why anyone would hold onto that.

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, ursula said:

The show debunks that out of the gate by making Alicent and Rhaenyra the same age so I don’t know why anyone would hold onto that.

But there is an Alicent and Rhaenyra in the books.

[Oscirus]

Perhaps the velaryons paid alot of money to keep her stupidity out of the books. Thats how Im handwaving it

[Cristofle]

12 hours ago, ybrik said:

Also I am going to assume Larys wasn’t able to kill Mysaria. However, she is going to be pissed off which could definitely lead to Blood and Cheese.

Mysaria is really, really far off from her depiction in the book, so I'm interested to see how this plays out in Blood and Cheese, if at all. 

I do wonder why they so severely de-aged Criston (even before he never aged these past twenty or so years, lol, he was never so close to Rhaenyra's age, even factoring in that she started the series about 7 years older than she had been at the same period in the book. He was only a few years younger than Viserys). The only plot it's seemed to serve is making Criston essentially an incel who has been bitter for more than fifteen years. I agree that the show and the book are in many ways not the same, but it's curious to figure out what they changed and why they might have done it. Aging up Rhaenyra and making her and Alicent friends is relatively obvious - making Rhaenyra a teenager at the start allowed her to be a more significant player in the first few episodes, and she and Alicent were written as friends to up the drama. Criston...who knows. All I know is I'm looking forward to his death now more than ever. 

[Oscirus]

Another interesting change is there appears to be no aegon daughter.  I get that she plays little to no important role in the future of the story but still interesting. 

So Im guessing that Rhae will be ready to agree to terms then storms end happens and thats when the dance happens.  I get the feeling that responsibility for a son for a son will be taken from Rhaenyrus and Daemon and laid at the feet of blood and cheese getting overzealous.

[Constantinople]

Other reasons I don't like Rhaenys and Meleys as the surprise guests at the coronation. 

Some contend that Rhaenys didn't toast Alice t & Co. because of the kinslaying taboo. But that taboo didn't keep Rhaenys from fleeing at Rook's Rest when she chose to fight Aegon and Aemond. That was a battle but the war has effectively started. If Rhaenys thinks Rhaenyra killed Laenor, why would Rhaenys think Rhaenyra wouldn't decide to fight?

The other difference is how it affects Aemond and Luke. After what happened at the coronation, you'd have to be completely moronic not to take out a dragon or dragonrider whenever you got the chance.

[RobertDeSneero]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

But that taboo didn't keep Rhaenys from fleeing at Rook's Rest when she chose to fight Aegon and Aemond.

Did she have a choice?  The book says she didn't try to flee, but it was a trap and maybe she didn't have the chance to get away from a two-on-one situation.

[qtpye]

On 10/16/2022 at 10:14 PM, Oscirus said:

Why are they going out of their way to make it look like the women wanted to avoid war at all costs but the evil men keep forcing it even though its not necessary? These changes are to the detriment of these characters

On 10/16/2022 at 10:19 PM, SilverStormm said:

To make Alicent more sympathetic I expect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

On 10/16/2022 at 10:37 PM, ursula said:

In the attempt to make this a “feminist struggle against the evil patriarchy” they’ve stripped the women of agency.

They are making the women look stupid.

A is sooooo shocked that her dad has been plotting to put Aegon on the throne.

You have a chance to take out all the greens but you kill a bunch of innocent small  folk and piss of the Greens, instead.

[rmontro]

On 10/12/2022 at 6:27 AM, SilverStormm said:

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books to date. 

I've got to be honest.  I read the book when it came out, but I don't remember what happens.  That said, spoilers don't bother me anyway.

[kassandra8286]

2 hours ago, rmontro said:

I've got to be honest.  I read the book when it came out, but I don't remember what happens.

And even if you've reread it recently like I have doesn't mean you can't be surprised pleasantly (Laenor is alive!) or unpleasantly (most of episode 9) by the adaptation. 

[ursula]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:22 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

Did she have a choice?  The book says she didn't try to flee, but it was a trap and maybe she didn't have the chance to get away from a two-on-one situation.

The book said she literally whooped the Westeros version of “Yee haw!” and charged. 

[magdalene]

After thinking about the final scene for a couple of days I don't like it for several reasons.  It reminds me of the writing in season 8 of GOT - all flash and no plot logic.  Rhaenys showing mercy to the Greens reminds me unfortunately of Ned showing mercy to Cersei.

[RobertDeSneero]

12 hours ago, ursula said:

The book said she literally whooped the Westeros version of “Yee haw!” and charged. 

This is what the book says:

Quote

Then came an answering roar. Two more winged shapes appeared: the king astride Sunfyre the Golden, and his brother Aemond upon Vhagar. Criston Cole had sprung his trap, and Rhaenys had come snatching at the bait. Now the teeth closed round her.

Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe. Against Vhagar alone she might have had some chance, but against Vhagar and Sunfyre together, doom was certain. The dragons met violently a thousand feet above the field of battle, as balls of fire burst and blossomed, so bright that men swore later that the sky was full of suns. The crimson jaws of Meleys closed round Sunfyre’s golden neck for a moment, till Vhagar fell upon them from above. All three beasts went spinning toward the ground. They struck the ground so hard that stones fell from the battlements of Rook’s Rest half a league away.

I interpret it as her accepting certain death and going out in a blaze of glory because fleeing wasn't a realistic option or else she's really, really dumb to embrace a fight she can't win when she has the option of running away.

[ursula]

23 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

This is what the book says:

I interpret it as her accepting certain death and going out in a blaze of glory because fleeing wasn't a realistic option or else she's really, really dumb to embrace a fight she can't win when she has the option of running away.

Quote

Princess Rhaenys made no attempt to flee. With a glad cry and a crack of her whip, she turned Meleys toward the foe. 

Quote

The book said she literally whooped the Westeros version of “Yee haw!” and charged. 

What's the difference?

That said, this discussion stems from the idea that Rhaenys didn't kill Aegon etc because she didn't want to be a kinslayer. She could have still parlayed, tried to surrender, or at least started a conversation before she went down swinging. The point still remains that the Rhaenys who took on 2 dragons (both the dragons themselves and the people riding them) didn't seem to take any issue with killing her kin in the middle of a war. I guess you can argue that when Aegon II was crowned, it wasn't certain that there was going to be a war. Maybe Rhaenyra would have backed down. But then that makes Rhaenys hella naive.

[Meredith Quill]

Saw this on a Youtuber's vid and took a screenshot 🤣

[mac123x]

On 10/19/2022 at 11:04 AM, magdalene said:

After thinking about the final scene for a couple of days I don't like it for several reasons.  It reminds me of the writing in season 8 of GOT - all flash and no plot logic. 

Agreed.  It also reminded me of Cercei blowing up the Sept of Baelor.  There should be consequences in that the smallfolk of King's Landing would hate Rhaenys (and by extension, Rhaenyra).   Maybe that will lead to the Shepard and the attack on the Dragon Pit, but based on the comments one of the show-runner types made in a magazine about civilians not mattering, I doubt they're that far sighted to set something up at least one season in advance.  So I'm skeptical.  

[Oscirus]

I couldnt figure out what else was driving me crazy, they were going out of their way to push the alicent good mother thing yet they took out the scene of Alicent crowning her daughter.  Kind of a big scene to leave on the cutting room floor, esp when its cut because they had to put in that silly rhaenys scene.

[Meredith Quill]

Not dissimilar from cutting the Daemon comforting his daughters scene; show's gonna do what show's gonna do. 

[Avaleigh]

On 10/19/2022 at 9:04 AM, magdalene said:

After thinking about the final scene for a couple of days I don't like it for several reasons.  It reminds me of the writing in season 8 of GOT - all flash and no plot logic.  Rhaenys showing mercy to the Greens reminds me unfortunately of Ned showing mercy to Cersei.

I feel the same. I love the show and think almost everything about this adaptation has been stellar. It's ridiculously entertaining and hits all of the right notes. It's probably my favorite show right now aside from The Crown. 

That being said, I think this choice with Rhaenys was a rare misstep for the show. No matter how the showrunners attempt to spin it, it just makes Rhaenys seem stupid. She kills a bunch of innocent smallfolk but fails to kill the handful of people who are all on board to rip the realm apart? How many lives might have been spared if she'd done what was in her power? 

If nothing else I feel like Aegon and Aemond should have immediately been rushed out of the room before the dust from her entrance settled. If Rhaenys looked around and saw that they'd already escaped, her decision to spare the others wouldn't have annoyed me as much. 

[Roseanna]

Rhaenys asks Alicent if she hadn't ever wanted to be "free", not to serve his father and other men's interests but claim power to herself.

That sums the stupidity of this show's ideas.

Rhaenyra can't claim power to herself as she has no right to it. She isn't born a princess, unlike Rahenyra and Rhaenys. She has married the king and given birth to his children. Thus, she can only have power through his husband and his sons. 

Theoretically, as Queen Consort she could be influential, but she has no such character and skills as her father. She had years to turn Viserys against Rhaenyra and renounce her in the favor of her sons, but failed to do so. 

Spoiler

She had a second chance as Queen Mother but didn't succeed the better, not only because "she is a woman" but because she failed to create a initimate relationship with Aegon and Aemond.

Alicent has followed her father's orders, but has she served only *his* interests instead of being "free"? In such a society, nobody is "free" because if she or he isn't a member of family and serve its interests (marriage means alliance of families), they have nobody who protects them. 

Yeah, there is one way out to "freedom" that Laenor took with his lover, but the price wasn't only to give up his position but his parents and children.     

[Roseanna]

On 10/17/2022 at 5:53 AM, ybrik said:

Not sure about the ending with Rhaenys flying out the dragon pit during the coronation because of her just sparing the Greens and killing innocent common folk Though as mentioned by a previous poster that this could be a good set up to the attack on the pit. 

 

On 10/17/2022 at 11:51 PM, Constantinople said:

Some contend that Rhaenys didn't toast Alice t & Co. because of the kinslaying taboo. But that taboo didn't keep Rhaenys from fleeing at Rook's Rest when she chose to fight Aegon and Aemond. That was a battle but the war has effectively started. If Rhaenys thinks Rhaenyra killed Laenor, why would Rhaenys think Rhaenyra wouldn't decide to fight?

 

On 10/20/2022 at 9:40 PM, ursula said:

What's the difference?

That said, this discussion stems from the idea that Rhaenys didn't kill Aegon etc because she didn't want to be a kinslayer. She could have still parlayed, tried to surrender, or at least started a conversation before she went down swinging. The point still remains that the Rhaenys who took on 2 dragons (both the dragons themselves and the people riding them) didn't seem to take any issue with killing her kin in the middle of a war. I guess you can argue that when Aegon II was crowned, it wasn't certain that there was going to be a war. Maybe Rhaenyra would have backed down. But then that makes Rhaenys hella naive.

 

On 10/23/2022 at 4:55 AM, mac123x said:

Agreed.  It also reminded me of Cercei blowing up the Sept of Baelor.  There should be consequences in that the smallfolk of King's Landing would hate Rhaenys (and by extension, Rhaenyra).   Maybe that will lead to the Shepard and the attack on the Dragon Pit, but based on the comments one of the show-runner types made in a magazine about civilians not mattering, I doubt they're that far sighted to set something up at least one season in advance.  So I'm skeptical.  

 

On 10/25/2022 at 1:56 AM, Avaleigh said:

I feel the same. I love the show and think almost everything about this adaptation has been stellar. It's ridiculously entertaining and hits all of the right notes. It's probably my favorite show right now aside from The Crown. 

That being said, I think this choice with Rhaenys was a rare misstep for the show. No matter how the showrunners attempt to spin it, it just makes Rhaenys seem stupid. She kills a bunch of innocent smallfolk but fails to kill the handful of people who are all on board to rip the realm apart? How many lives might have been spared if she'd done what was in her power? 

If nothing else I feel like Aegon and Aemond should have immediately been rushed out of the room before the dust from her entrance settled. If Rhaenys looked around and saw that they'd already escaped, her decision to spare the others wouldn't have annoyed me as much. 

Good points.

However, I believe that every person has only limited options to choose and there are other things that she simply can't do (although which things they are can't be 100%-sure beforehand). I suppose smallfolk was to Rhaenys only "collateral damage" whereas she can't and won't break a taboo by becoming a "kinslayer". Also, somebody with a different character and values could have thought that "it will be a war in any case", but she wasn't 100%-sure (and actually nobody can be 100%-sure beforehand). 

But why did she come, if she didn't intend to kill Aegon and Aemond? Did she change her mind? Or was it as a warning - we have more dragons than you and you are foolish to believe that you can win?

 

[proserpina65]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But why did she come, if she didn't intend to kill Aegon and Aemond?

She couldn't have known for sure that they'd be there, but even if she had, the war had already started and the rules changed.  It hadn't begun when she burst out of the Dragonpit.

[Roseanna]

18 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

She couldn't have known for sure that they'd be there, but even if she had, the war had already started and the rules changed.  It hadn't begun when she burst out of the Dragonpit.

But was the war really begun? Aegon had taken the crown that was legally Rhaenyra's - but no acts of war had been committed (although a couple of concillors had been murdered).

The decisive thing is what happens next: will Rahenyra accept Aegon as a ruler or not *and* will either party use violence against the other? 

[proserpina65]

The original commenter was comparing Rhaenys' actions in the Dragon pit to her actions at Rook's Rest and seemed to be questioning why she'd go to RR with the probability of meeting Aegon and Aemond there and becoming a kinslayer when she apparently didn't want to be one earlier.  Or at least that was my understanding of the comment, I could be wrong.  My reply was pointing out that by Rook's Rest, the war had begun and that killing relatives on the other side was viewed somewhat differently.