Bitterness Thread

[Pearson80]

12 minutes ago, CanaryFan98 said:

I think if you stick around long enough you do become the villain. However the soap genre changed from when Hope arrived to today. If the writers back then were still around(or ones who were developed to write the same way) the show and these characters would be in a much better place. However the networks let the soap genre die willingly.

The sad thing is that soaps made these network millions for decades and they have not invested in soaps by hiring writers producers and directors who love the genre and its fans.  Ron should not write for this soap and trash it's history for his own agenda. Look at what he did to Anjelica, Diana and Laura for his stupid stories..

[peachmangosteen]

Ron does indeed love soaps, so it's sort of a be careful what you wish for kinda thing lol. He does seem to hate fans though. At least if they're not kissing his ass.

[4evaQuez]

48 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Ron does indeed love soaps, so it's sort of a be careful what you wish for kinda thing lol. He does seem to hate fans though. At least if they're not kissing his ass.

Hmmm...I'm not sure if Ron loves Soaps or Soapdish - the movie with Whoopie Goldberg and Sally Field. Ron goes for the campier aspects of how people who don't watch Soaps view soaps and not the human emotion and ever-changing dynamics of human relationships that used to be the bedrock of Soaps. I'm not saying he isn't a true fan, but I think his writing would work better for Passions.

As it is, he writes like someone who loves the genre but doesn't understand the genre.

[CanaryFan98]

45 minutes ago, 4evaQuez said:

Hmmm...I'm not sure if Ron loves Soaps or Soapdish - the movie with Whoopie Goldberg and Sally Field. Ron goes for the campier aspects of how people who don't watch Soaps view soaps and not the human emotion and ever-changing dynamics of human relationships that used to be the bedrock of Soaps. I'm not saying he isn't a true fan, but I think his writing would work better for Passions.

As it is, he writes like someone who loves the genre but doesn't understand the genre.

That would explain why he seems fixated on JER stories as he rips them off.

On a sidenote I did love Soapdish(and all the soap star cameos) which is where I first saw Carrie Fisher(even though I know she's Princess Leia but i never watched Star Wars.

[Pearson80]

3 hours ago, 4evaQuez said:

As it is, he writes like someone who loves the genre but doesn't understand the genre.

Perfect description of Ron...

2 hours ago, CanaryFan98 said:

That would explain why he seems fixated on JER stories as he rips them off.

 

So true but JER had really good payoffs that was satisfying. For example: Carrie punching Sami and knocking her out at her aborted wedding to Austin  after exposing her lies and Will's paternity or Hope opening up the puzzle box proving once and for all that she was indeed Hope Brady.  Even though Bo should have known that she was Hope all along like Alice Horton but that is another rant for another day..

Edited March 1, 2021 by Pearson80

[peachmangosteen]

I think he does love soaps. And he does love camp, which I do as well and I think camp is a soap staple tbh. One of Ron's problems is he does tend to take camp too far. Also, his weird rape obsession. But also, I do think some issues over his tenure of writing soaps is influence/mandates from higher ups.

[Irlandesa]

20 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

The sad thing is that soaps made these network millions for decades and they have not invested in soaps by hiring writers producers and directors who love the genre and its fans.

Well no.  But soaps also haven't made this kind of money for networks/production companies in decades.  And there's a ton of competition for writers with streaming services...etc.

[Pearson80]

18 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

Well no.  But soaps also haven't made this kind of money for networks/production companies in decades.  And there's a ton of competition for writers with streaming services...etc.

In the 90's people were not streaming shows in their homes and the shift against the genre started during that time.. Days pushed JER to the forefront while pushing Sherry Anderson out the door and it was the beginning of the end, the possession storyline while a ratings success caused a lot of people to stop watching the show. 

Edited March 1, 2021 by Pearson80

[CanaryFan98]

7 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I think he does love soaps. And he does love camp, which I do as well and I think camp is a soap staple tbh. One of Ron's problems is he does tend to take camp too far. Also, his weird rape obsession. But also, I do think some issues over his tenure of writing soaps is influence/mandates from higher ups.

While Ron is fixated on rape that issue existed on this show long before he came along. Although at least back then it wasn't in every storyline.

[peachmangosteen]

RC's rape issues are a whole other thing outside of rape being a part of soaps. He is completely obsessed with rape while having absolutely no idea what it even actually is.

[Pearson80]

57 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

RC's rape issues are a whole other thing outside of rape being a part of soaps. He is completely obsessed with rape while having absolutely no idea what it even actually is.

His staunch defense of Abigail/Stefan not being rape is proof of him not knowing what that is and how it affects somebody who has been violated that way..

[Irlandesa]

He also likes to play with rape romance.  I suspect he wasn't allowed to do it with Abigail and Jake (even though Jake isn't Stefan--as far as we know) but now we have Tripp and Allie being all friendly after she accused him of rape. 

Spoiler

And now he's adopting Henry--WTH?

 

[Pearson80]

To be fair to Ron, this obsession with rape stories is not exclusive to him.  I remember that All My Children had Erica who was raped as a child and had a daughter Kendall who she gave away.  We later found out that her father Eric had pimped her out to this Hollywood producer for his career. It was truly revolting; a father setting up his own daughter to be raped.  Her other daughter Bianca who was a lesbian also got raped and had her own daughter  that way. It became too much for me at times especially whenever the four of them was in a room together, I always remembered that ugly fact. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Pearson80

[Silver Raven]

OK, I'm bitter.  They mentioned Mike today and didn't show him.

 

[Rafael]

On 3/1/2021 at 1:45 AM, 4evaQuez said:

Hmmm...I'm not sure if Ron loves Soaps or Soapdish - the movie with Whoopie Goldberg and Sally Field. Ron goes for the campier aspects of how people who don't watch Soaps view soaps and not the human emotion and ever-changing dynamics of human relationships that used to be the bedrock of Soaps. I'm not saying he isn't a true fan, but I think his writing would work better for Passions.

As it is, he writes like someone who loves the genre but doesn't understand the genre.

Ron 's tenure to me has been an epic disaster . 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Rafael

[Pearson80]

53 minutes ago, Rafael said:

Ron 's tenure to me has been an epic disaster . 

The sad thing is that it is too late to change things around and I fear that Ron may write the show's ending..

[DisneyBoy]

On 3/6/2021 at 3:58 PM, Rafael said:

Ron goes for the campier aspects of how people who don't watch Soaps view soaps and not the human emotion and ever-changing dynamics of human relationships that used to be the bedrock of Soaps. I'm not saying he isn't a true fan, but I think his writing would work better for Passions.

Yup, I think Passions would be right up his alley.

[Rafael]

On 3/12/2021 at 5:45 PM, DisneyBoy said:

Yup, I think Passions would be right up his alley.

Ron has pulled Days fully back into Dena Higley territory. Dumb, embarrassing, nonsensical ...

[Pearson80]

5 hours ago, Rafael said:

Ron has pulled Days fully back into Dena Higley territory. Dumb, embarrassing, nonsensical ...

I think that he is worst than Dena.  Dena as horrible as she was respected the show's history somewhat.  She would never have killed off Adrienne Anjelica and Laura the way that Ron did.  

[Irlandesa]

Oh I think Dena's worse.  I found the show unwatchable under her.  And she would screw over characters as well. 

[Pearson80]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Oh I think Dena's worse.  I found the show unwatchable under her.  And she would screw over characters as well. 

Dena is bad for sure I am not romanticizing her horrific reign on the show.  I just hate how Ron ruining the show.

[Rafael]

4 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Oh I think Dena's worse.  I found the show unwatchable under her.  And she would screw over characters as well. 

I agree that she was awful and the sydnapping was the only good storyline she wrote . Say what you want about her but under her reign of terror , the show's ratings never went below 2 Million . 

[Irlandesa]

12 minutes ago, Rafael said:

Say what you want about her but under her reign of terror , the show's ratings never went below 2 Million . 

I couldn't care less about ratings, especially ratings from years ago given what is happening to the television landscape overall,

I think JER not only destroyed DOOL but arguably destroyed soaps even though ratings went up during his tenure.

[CanaryFan98]

13 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I couldn't care less about ratings, especially ratings from years ago given what is happening to the television landscape overall,

I think JER not only destroyed DOOL but arguably destroyed soaps even though ratings went up during his tenure.

Not really sure how he destroyed the latter as other soaps not named Passions ever adopted his storytelling.

 

[Pearson80]

18 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I couldn't care less about ratings, especially ratings from years ago given what is happening to the television landscape overall,

I think JER not only destroyed DOOL but arguably destroyed soaps even though ratings went up during his tenure.

I agree with you wholeheartedly and the possession storyline was the beginning of the end of character-driven stories rooted in history with the characters acting and reacting in character on this show.  Days' ratings were high but it came at a cost and other soaps wanted to imitate their ratings success to the detriment of soaps overall. 

 

Edited March 21, 2021 by Pearson80

[DisneyBoy]

I feel like they could have done this exact same exit storyline for Sarah...and just left Kristen out of it entirely.

I mean, Chloe and Brady were already very concerned with Sarah marrying Xander. Rex coming back to help them stage an intervention could have likely yielded the same conversation "Sarah" had with Xander in Rex's room: that she'd long had misgivings, never gotten fully over the baby switch mess and just wasn't ready to marry someone who had hurt so many people.

It would have required some setting up, sure, but it would have felt 200 times more believable than Kristen wearing a mask, magically morphing into a younger womans's body and saying those things as a made-up excuse...because, hello, they're perfectly reasonable and valid reasons to get cold feet. Sarah could have just left town conflicted.

Am I wrong?

Edited March 22, 2021 by DisneyBoy

[DisneyBoy]

9 hours ago, CanaryFan98 said:

Not really sure how he destroyed the latter as other soaps not named Passions ever adopted his storytelling.

 

Another World.

The year the show was canceled, they began with a bizarre sci-fi/Phantom of the Opera/Secret Garden/Beauty and the Beast story about a disfigured millionaire trying to resurrect the soul of his dead wife in Amanda Cory's body. It was completely out of step with AW's tone.

...it was really about imitating the melodrama of DOOL storylines like Lady In A Cage, though. Soaps saw how audiences responded (short term) to the out-there gothic romance stuff DOOL was airing and tried to imitate it.

Heck, even before that, they took a story about lookalike wives and turned it into something ripped from the JER's playbook. Justine started out as Rachel's doppelganger hellbent on revenge....and ended up a disfigured, hook-handed camp villainess in a nun's habit, complete with choral chanting backing up her every appearance. Rachel, her target, turned into a one dimensional damsel in distress, crying about "God's love" rather than kicking her deranged ass. Actress Victoria Wyndham, who played both parts, was embarrassed by the whole thing.

After the axe fell, the producers dropped all JER-esque concepts right quick and focused on the characters again. At least AW ended feeling something like itself...but those last few years were all about competing with DOOL.

And now RC is competing with the memory of JER's DOOL. And relying on it.

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by DisneyBoy

[Rafael]

6 hours ago, Pearson80 said:

I agree with you wholeheartedly and the possession storyline was the beginning of the end of character-driven stories rooted in history with the characters acting and reacting in character on this show.  Days' ratings were high but it came at a cost and other soaps wanted to imitate their ratings success to the detriment of soaps overall. 

 

Plot based writing can only take you so far. The show has exhausted this plot based writing policy to the point where they now recycle the same storylines and tropes over and over again for different characters. 

And that is where  the show is right now. 

That is why I am fully against the introduction of these newbies who never even gain any traction or last .

The show should rather focus on bringing past characters  and their legacy kids and  offsprings of genetically neutral characters not related to the Bradys/DiMera/Hortons such as Noelle Curtis ,Joy Wesley ,Nicholas Alamain , Hannah Wales and the rest of the Last Blast crew to avoid incest.

This way you can use the show's history and character's respective histories to tell new stories. 

And this nonsense of everbody having a long lost kid needs to stop. 

I know this will be quite the read but let me give you guys an idea on how the show messed up by not telling actual character based storylines. 

For Example , my suggestion that instead of Deimos terrorising Victor and Maggie ,it should have been Larry Welch teaming up with Linda Anderson (Melissa Horton's bio mum ) . I would have cast Morgan Fairchild as Linda Anderson. 

That is plausible and makes sense because of Larry 's history with Victor (Victor framed him) and Linda's history with Maggie and Mickey( she lost custody of Melissa to them and Melissa later disowned her after ). Plus before Larry was sent to jail , he actually found evidence that Linda and Alex Marshall commited insurance fraud by burning down Anderson Manufacturing.and Linda scored a fortune when Bob Anderson left money for her and she left salem. Larry's death being faked by the ISA would have made sense because this man infiltrated the DiMera goon squad and even impersonated Stefano and got one of the DiMera hitmen to try to kill Victor only to end up shooting Nicole. It makes sense that the ISA would use Larry as an asset and he would end up escaping them and going to Linda and blackmailing her to be his accomplice and using her money for his final revenge against Victor and Hope and Linda would use this as an opportunity to stick it to Maggie and Mickey. 

Hell, they could have also had Victor being descimated by Larry and Linda and Victor resorting to asking Andre DiMera's help by revealing that Larry murdered Megan and hoping the DiMera's have a  mafia  honor code that calls for vengeance against the killers of the member of the crime family. Andre would simply scoff at that and brag he never cared about Megan . However ,Andre ,having made a vow to Stefano to protect the remaining DiMeras to make up for killing Benjy and Renee ,would be the one to whack Larry and avenging Megan on Stefano's behalf .

However Andre would frame Philip for the murder and using the situation to blackmail Belle to hand over her share of the DiMera loot she got from Sami to Andre in exchange for Philip's freedom. Plus Philip's ISA agent past and millitary past would be used against him during court because he would no doubt know how to use bombs and other weapons to whack Larry ,who recently terrorised his dad. this making him the perfect patsy. Instead we got contrieved Deimos who didnt even last more than two years. 

 

YOU GUYS SEE THAT  ?

 

That is character based storytelling.  Every bit of my storyline suggestion above is rooted in character based history . And I am not a pro -writer. 

 

 Why cant TIIC see that character based storylines are far more effective ? That is why the Eric /Nicole /Brady love triangle was great and why the storyline of Belle having to switch off Marlena's life support was good. Its no coincidence that this was the only storylines  Carlivati actually wrote well.

[Silver Raven]

Don't forget GH/Port Charles having vampires and angels and aliens.

 

[CanaryFan98]

GH had aliens with Casey the Alien in the 80s but in the 90s it was Port Charles with the vampires which I thought killed the show. Although the General Homicide story dragging as it did didn't help either. 

I did like PC up till that point though.

19 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

Another World.

The year the show was canceled, they began with a bizarre sci-fi/Phantom of the Opera/Secret Garden/Beauty and the Beast story about a disfigured millionaire trying to resurrect the soul of his dead wife in Amanda Cory's body. It was completely out of step with AW's tone.

...it was really about imitating the melodrama of DOOL storylines like Lady In A Cage, though. Soaps saw how audiences responded (short term) to the out-there gothic romance stuff DOOL was airing and tried to imitate it.

Heck, even before that, they took a story about lookalike wives and turned it into something ripped from the JER's playbook. Justine started out as Rachel's doppelganger hellbent on revenge....and ended up a disfigured, hook-handed camp villainess in a nun's habit, complete with choral chanting backing up her every appearance. Rachel, her target, turned into a one dimensional damsel in distress, crying about "God's love" rather than kicking her deranged ass. Actress Victoria Wyndham, who played both parts, was embarrassed by the whole thing.

After the axe fell, the producers dropped all JER-esque concepts right quick and focused on the characters again. At least AW ended feeling something like itself...but those last few years were all about competing with DOOL.

And now RC is competing with the memory of JER's DOOL. And relying on it.

 

I remember that my mom hated that storyline and thought AW would get the boot after that she was right.

[Chellfairy]

22 hours ago, DisneyBoy said:

I feel like they could have done this exact same exit storyline for Sarah...and just left Kristen out of it entirely.

I mean, Chloe and Brady were already very concerned with Sarah marrying Xander. Rex coming back to help them stage an intervention could have likely yielded the same conversation "Sarah" had with Xander in Rex's room: that she'd long had misgivings, never gotten fully over the baby switch mess and just wasn't ready to marry someone who had hurt so many people.

It would have required some setting up, sure, but it would have felt 200 times more believable than Kristen wearing a mask, magically morphing into a younger womans's body and saying those things as a made-up excuse...because, hello, they're perfectly reasonable and valid reasons to get cold feet. Sarah could have just left town conflicted.

Am I wrong?

NO!! You’re 100% right!

[Pearson80]

On 3/21/2021 at 11:41 PM, DisneyBoy said:

Another World.

The year the show was canceled, they began with a bizarre sci-fi/Phantom of the Opera/Secret Garden/Beauty and the Beast story about a disfigured millionaire trying to resurrect the soul of his dead wife in Amanda Cory's body. It was completely out of step with AW's tone.

...it was really about imitating the melodrama of DOOL storylines like Lady In A Cage, though. Soaps saw how audiences responded (short term) to the out-there gothic romance stuff DOOL was airing and tried to imitate it.

Heck, even before that, they took a story about lookalike wives and turned it into something ripped from the JER's playbook. Justine started out as Rachel's doppelganger hellbent on revenge....and ended up a disfigured, hook-handed camp villainess in a nun's habit, complete with choral chanting backing up her every appearance. Rachel, her target, turned into a one dimensional damsel in distress, crying about "God's love" rather than kicking her deranged ass. Actress Victoria Wyndham, who played both parts, was embarrassed by the whole thing.

After the axe fell, the producers dropped all JER-esque concepts right quick and focused on the characters again. At least AW ended feeling something like itself...but those last few years were all about competing with DOOL.

And now RC is competing with the memory of JER's DOOL. And relying on it.

 

 Add in Frankie's brutal murder by that serial killer, I am still haunted by that till this day.  It is one of the many reasons that I can never accept Ben the serial killer with abs on the show.  Paige's brutal  and prolonged murder mirrored Frankie's in my mind. Jensen's Vicky becoming a weird hybrid of Vicky and Marley, Anne Heche's beautiful command of the twins was irreplaceable and unmatched.  Ryan being killed, Jake and Vicky falling in love, the omnipotence of  Grant Harrison, the different Amandas and the insipid romance between Rachel and Carl Hutchins after she had been with Mac made Another World so painful to watch  for so many years and I put the blame on JER.. His influence was not just on Days..

Edited March 23, 2021 by Pearson80

[DisneyBoy]

I'm kind of bitter that I can't bring myself to watch much anymore.

 

Two weeks will go by and I'll think....huh. Oh well.

 

Shame.

[Rafael]

Used to love Kate and Victor back in the day. 

They should have reunited them back in 2011 instead of Maggie marrying Victor . It should have been Kate vs Vivian part 2 with adult Philip in the mix . 

Always used to think Victor hating on Will was truly bizarre considering the fact that Will lived with them at the mansion.  And his hatred for Lucas prior to Lucas and Adrienne sleazing it up was hella contrieved. 

They took Victor from Lucas and then used him to prop up Daniel . 

What a shame . I liked their father son scenes .

Edited June 26, 2021 by Rafael

[peachmangosteen]

Wow, Lucas looks so much like Tripp in that picture. 

[Rafael]

Still shocked that Days decided not to keep  Sean Douglas ,who played Vargas. 

The man had chemistry with pretty much everybody on the canvas.

He had scorching chemistry with Nicole ,Hope and even Theresa . 

He had inappropriate chemistry with Nick Fallon and Eric too. 

An actor like this would have been seen as an asset by any soapie run by competent people  since he could generate chemistry with all the other actors and it still boggles my mind why they didnt even bother bringing him back when he was clearly a hit with the viewers to the point where some were clamouring for Sean Douglas to be brought back. 

I still say they should have brought him back as a quasi legacy character like Tanner Scofield ,who is Steve ,Jack and Adrienne's step brother. 

Tanner returning to Salem to join Salem PD as Bo's replacement would have sufficed . 

Talk about dropping the ball.

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Rafael

[RealHousewife]

I like the new EJ and think he's drop dead gorgeous, but I'll always miss James Scott. It makes me sad we'll never see him again. 

[Rafael]

I like the idea of the show spawning spinoff shows but my main contention and complaint is that they written by carlivati which drastically reduces my desire to watch them. Corday should rather let writers like Ryan Quan to write these spinoffs . 

[Rafael]

Still disgusted that Ben westen gets an ornament hung on the Horton christmas tree. Absolutely sickening ,i tell you!!!

Edited January 5, 2022 by Rafael

[Katy M]

7 hours ago, Rafael said:

Still disgusted that Ben westen gets an ornament hung on the Horton christmas tree. Absolutely sickening ,i tell you!!!

Because he was married to Abigail?  Considering that ended with him trying to burn her to death, yes, ridiculous.

[peachmangosteen]

I assume it's because he's married to Ciara. Now, I'm not sure how she's a Horton but I don't know/remember all the different ways people are related lol.

[Sidney]

52 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I assume it's because he's married to Ciara. Now, I'm not sure how she's a Horton but I don't know/remember all the different ways people are related lol.

Hope's mother was Tom and Alice's daughter.( Addie) Tom and Alice was Hope's grandparents. Which makes Ciara Tom and Alice's great-granddaughter. Alice was actually still alive when Ciara was born. So was JJ.

[CanaryFan98]

On 1/5/2022 at 9:50 AM, Katy M said:

Because he was married to Abigail?  Considering that ended with him trying to burn her to death, yes, ridiculous.

They were never married but engaged and at one time considered to be Thomas's father.  Hard to believe but back then I liked Ben.

[WendyCR72]

On 1/5/2022 at 10:09 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I assume it's because he's married to Ciara. Now, I'm not sure how she's a Horton but I don't know/remember all the different ways people are related lol.

Was going to explain, but I see @Sidney beat me to it!

[WendyCR72]

On 1/5/2022 at 11:11 AM, Sidney said:

Hope's mother was Tom and Alice's daughter.( Addie) Tom and Alice was Hope's grandparents. Which makes Ciara Tom and Alice's great-granddaughter. Alice was actually still alive when Ciara was born. So was JJ.

Just to add, since the weirdness plays to this day: Addie was also mother to Julie via her first husband, Mr. Olsen. (Unsure if his first name was ever said!) Unsure if he died or they divorced, but later on, after Julie and Doug split at some point, Addie went for Doug and that is how they married and Addie had Hope later in life.

So Julie is both Hope's half sister and stepmother!

Addie also had a son, Steven Olsen, last played by Stephen Schnetzer (before his stint as Cass on Another World) all the way back in 1979. He has neither been seen nor mentioned since then. So he is brother to Julie and half-brother to Hope. And that is not mentioning the long story of Hope's half-brother through Doug...

[Sidney]

13 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Just to add, since the weirdness plays to this day: Addie was also mother to Julie via her first husband, Mr. Olsen. (Unsure if his first name was ever said!) Unsure if he died or they divorced, but later on, after Julie and Doug split at some point, Addie went for Doug and that is how they married and Addie had Hope later in life.

So Julie is both Hope's half sister and stepmother!

Addie also had a son, Steven Olsen, last played by Stephen Schnetzer (before his stint as Cass on Another World) all the way back in 1979. He has neither been seen nor mentioned since then. So he is brother to Julie and half-brother to Hope. And that is not mentioning the long story of Hope's half-brother through Doug...

I love reading the wacky history of these characters. It's more interesting than the actual show these days. lol

[CanaryFan98]

23 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

Just to add, since the weirdness plays to this day: Addie was also mother to Julie via her first husband, Mr. Olsen. (Unsure if his first name was ever said!) Unsure if he died or they divorced, but later on, after Julie and Doug split at some point, Addie went for Doug and that is how they married and Addie had Hope later in life.

So Julie is both Hope's half sister and stepmother!

Addie also had a son, Steven Olsen, last played by Stephen Schnetzer (before his stint as Cass on Another World) all the way back in 1979. He has neither been seen nor mentioned since then. So he is brother to Julie and half-brother to Hope. And that is not mentioning the long story of Hope's half-brother through Doug...

His name was Ben(I'm well aware of the irony)

[Rafael]

Absolutely disgusted with what Carlivati has done to Craig and Nancy. As a guy who watched the show circa 2001 ,there was absolutely no hint of Craig being gay whatsoever . And then people wonder why the show's ratings have collapsed under tbis hack writer  . 

[RedElf]

On 1/5/2022 at 8:11 AM, Sidney said:

Hope's mother was Tom and Alice's daughter.( Addie) Tom and Alice was Hope's grandparents. Which makes Ciara Tom and Alice's great-granddaughter. Alice was actually still alive when Ciara was born. So was JJ.

Ciara's name is Ciara Alice (I think it even says it on her ornament).

[FnkyChkn34]

Ooooh... the bitterness thread.  This is where I belong, LOL!  The whole show right now is awful!  I can't even single out which part I hate the most...