S02.E04: The Tree

[Skooma]

1 hour ago, bunnyface said:

Yeah, I didn't understand that.  (And yes, I know logic has NO place here.)  But if the tree was on Woodstone or even half Woodstone property, how could the neighbors cut it down without permission?  If it's not on Woodstone property, how could the ghosts go there?  Or in Flower's case, halfway around it.  Then I dove down the rabbit hole of maybe the Woodstone property was once much bigger and so they can go more places, but half a tree bigger?  Eh.  No logic allowed.

The tree was on the borderline.  So half and half.  That was why Flower couldn't walk the whole circle around the tree.

[ams1001]

7 hours ago, bunnyface said:

Yeah, I didn't understand that.  (And yes, I know logic has NO place here.)  But if the tree was on Woodstone or even half Woodstone property, how could the neighbors cut it down without permission?  If it's not on Woodstone property, how could the ghosts go there?  Or in Flower's case, halfway around it.  Then I dove down the rabbit hole of maybe the Woodstone property was once much bigger and so they can go more places, but half a tree bigger?  Eh.  No logic allowed.

I mean, by the logic of "can't leave the property lines of where you died," Thor and Sass should be able to go much further, since the property lines didn't exist when they died. (And Shiki shouldn't be stuck in a building that didn't exist when she died, either.) Were they able to roam more widely until people started parceling out the land and just happened to be there when those lines were drawn and so got stuck at Woodstone? If the Woodstone property were sold and divided, would they then be stuck in a smaller area that contained the spots where they died?

Edited October 23, 2022 by ams1001

[shapeshifter]

41 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

…Were they able to roam more widely until people started parceling out the land and just happened to be there when those lines were drawn and so got stuck at Woodstone? If the Woodstone property were sold and divided, would they then be stuck in a smaller area that contained the spots where they died?

Or maybe the reverse: That the ghosts’ boundaries are whatever boundaries the ghosts individually knew when they were living.

But your idea actually fits better with what we’ve seen: That the Woodstone ghosts seem to share the same boundaries.  And Shiki seems stuck in a modern building.

[eel21788]

1 hour ago, ams1001 said:

 (And Shiki shouldn't be stuck in a building that didn't exist when she died, either.)

I think Shiki was buried at what would eventually become the building site. Once her bones were dug up from what is now the building's basement, she now has free run of the whole building the same way the cholera pit ghosts can come upstairs if they want to.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

56 minutes ago, eel21788 said:

I think Shiki was buried at what would eventually become the building site. Once her bones were dug up from what is now the building's basement, she now has free run of the whole building the same way the cholera pit ghosts can come upstairs if they want to.

I think she died there. She wasn’t necessarily buried there. 

[Skooma]

3 hours ago, ams1001 said:

(And Shiki shouldn't be stuck in a building that didn't exist when she died, either.)

The first time we saw her on the show she was standing outside on the street with the young newsboy ghost.  She seems more stuck inside the town limits or maybe the old limits of her village back in the day.

But in the end it is just a TV show and the "limits" on the ghosts ability to travel are up to the writers.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I think she died there. She wasn’t necessarily buried there. 

Although not what you were thinking, this👆 reminds me of episodes of other shows in which a person is pronounced dead but then revives at the morgue, or even in at a funeral. That must’ve happened a few times IRL for it to be such a trope of scripted TV.

And now I’m considering plot loopholes based upon something similar to Sam’s experience, in which, for instance, someone “dies” at one location, but is then revived at another.

And what about a heart donor or other organ donor? I trust the writers would make the episode heartwarming enough that it would celebrate organ donation rather than frighten potential real life donors.

[AnimeMania]

On 10/21/2022 at 5:32 PM, Browncoat said:

I loved Flower reaching the barrier while she was protesting around the tree.

It seems weird that all of the "Ghosts" would have the exact same boundaries since they all didn't die in the exact same place.

[Zahdii]

Got an idea.  One day Sam wonders aloud if she were to die and her organs donated, would the recipients be able to see ghosts?  What if she donated blood?

Pete says he was an organ donor, but he doesn't think any of his organs were able to be donated because he didn't die in a hospital that would have enough time to find his donor notification on his drivers license and make preparations in time.  He wonders if he'd donated, would any aspect of his personality have migrated?  Would there be a new scout master out there because of him?  Or someone who suddenly liked broccoli?

Sam decides to look into it and (through the magic of TV comedy writers) finds that Pete actually donated his heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, and his corneas.  Then she invites them to the Inn for a Meet Pete weekend.  

Hilarity and misty eyes ensue as the recipients find that Pete's daughter and grandson attend, along with some other of Pete's family members and friends.  

Hopefully there are a couple of children young enough to see the ghosts and we can see them interacting with each other.  Thor can sing another child to sleep.  Issac will once again be annoyed by many of the kids being familiar with Hamilton.  Flower will walk through a bully teen and temporarily change him into a sweet hippy.  Attic Girl will wake up and we find she's actually really sweet with kids as she tries to teach them some dance moves (The Pendulum, The Roger Rabbit, The Running Man, and of course The Moon Walk).

Meanwhile, Trevor can oogle the women and Hetty can oogle the men.  

[iMonrey]

Quote

It seems weird that all of the "Ghosts" would have the exact same boundaries since they all didn't die in the exact same place.

I'm not sure if they've said when Woodstone Manor was built, but I don't think it even dates back to when Isaac died. I think Hetty is the most recent ghost to have died when there was a manor. That said, at some point the property lines were defined and I assume they were based on natural borders such as creeks and tree lines. So the general area where Thor, Sass and Isaac died basically became the manor's property, more or less. It may not be that the ghosts are confined to Woodstone property lines, specifically, but a general area that happens to be mostly Woodstone. (Like you can't leave a 5,000 square foot area of where you died, for example.)

The tree might have been technically on the neighbor's property but at the border of that area where the ghosts are confined to.

[Skooma]

On 10/23/2022 at 8:38 AM, AnimeMania said:

It seems weird that all of the "Ghosts" would have the exact same boundaries since they all didn't die in the exact same place.

Why?  TV writers simply decided that any area a ghost died before the manor house was built but later became Woodstone property now locks these ghosts into the current property boundary lines.  Done and done through the magic of sitcoms.

On 10/23/2022 at 12:06 PM, iMonrey said:

I'm not sure if they've said when Woodstone Manor was built, but I don't think it even dates back to when Isaac died

Yep.  Woodstone Manor was built by Hetty's father which would mean it was built well after Issac died. 

Also remember Hetty's father was suppose to be one of the early robber barons thus the big bucks to build this.  Typical of robber barons of that era.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Skooma

[SoMuchTV]

Some of us have been having those "boundary issues" for a while over in the Ghostly Incongruities thread:

(Mentioning that here since it helps keep the discussion all in one place rather than scattered across the individual episode threads.)

Edited October 23, 2022 by SoMuchTV

[eel21788]

5 hours ago, Zahdii said:

Pete says he was an organ donor, but he doesn't think any of his organs were able to be donated because he didn't die in a hospital that would have enough time to find his donor notification on his drivers license and make preparations in time. 

If you're braindead before you reach the hospital, but you aren't actually dead until your organs are harvested in a hospital operating room, where are your ghost boundaries?

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, eel21788 said:

If you're braindead before you reach the hospital, but you aren't actually dead until your organs are harvested in a hospital operating room, where are your ghost boundaries?

Oooo! Good one! 
Copying this to the Ghostly Incongruities: There’s No Death Manual thread because I'm on my laptop and if you're on your phone, you can't do that without breaking the links, and I may be a retired librarian, but I am still an obsessive archivist.😉

Edited October 23, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Bruinsfan]

On 10/21/2022 at 10:50 AM, shapeshifter said:

Had Thor previously observed Lenape people and figured out that they were not from Norway or Denmark, or even noticed any differences of physicality between the Lenape and the Europeans? 

We know that he watched Sasappis when he was still alive, so he's probably fairly familiar with the Lenape in general.

[DanaK]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:10 PM, Annber03 said:

Also, Sasappis is right, Bob does rock, and I'd be totally fine with him returning for whatever reason :). 

I would love for Bob to return. It would be interesting for Sam to tell him about Sas or find some way for him to communicate with Sas directly through some sort of spiritual ceremony of some sort

[HurricaneVal]

On 10/23/2022 at 6:58 AM, Zahdii said:

Got an idea.  One day Sam wonders aloud if she were to die and her organs donated, would the recipients be able to see ghosts?  What if she donated blood?

Pete says he was an organ donor, but he doesn't think any of his organs were able to be donated because he didn't die in a hospital that would have enough time to find his donor notification on his drivers license and make preparations in time.  He wonders if he'd donated, would any aspect of his personality have migrated?  Would there be a new scout master out there because of him?  Or someone who suddenly liked broccoli?

Sam decides to look into it and (through the magic of TV comedy writers) finds that Pete actually donated his heart, lungs, kidneys, liver, and his corneas.  Then she invites them to the Inn for a Meet Pete weekend.  

Hilarity and misty eyes ensue as the recipients find that Pete's daughter and grandson attend, along with some other of Pete's family members and friends

I love absolutely everything about this idea!

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

10 hours ago, DanaK said:

I would love for Bob to return. It would be interesting for Sam to tell him about Sas or find some way for him to communicate with Sas directly through some sort of spiritual ceremony of some sort

I think they should’ve just told him this episode. It was easy enough to convince Bela, and it would definitely help Sam explain why she went so hard on contradicting him. 

[SmithW6079]

Why were the neighbors cutting down the tree? Wasn't it on Jay and Sam's property? If the tree was on the property line, why were the neighbors making a unilateral decision? They were assholes then, to the people already living there.

And yet, at the end, Jay and Sam were the only ones who had to do the land acknowledgment.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

30 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

Why were the neighbors cutting down the tree? Wasn't it on Jay and Sam's property? If the tree was on the property line, why were the neighbors making a unilateral decision? They were assholes then, to the people already living there.

And yet, at the end, Jay and Sam were the only ones who had to do the land acknowledgment.

The tree was dying and at risk of crashing into their shed, so I don’t understand why they didn’t point that out more after the protest happened. It was 500 years old and dead on the inside, as we saw. So whether it was June and Allie, or a thunderstorm, it was not long for this world and nothing was able to save it. 

[Katy M]

50 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

And yet, at the end, Jay and Sam were the only ones who had to do the land acknowledgment.

They weren't made to do the land acknowledgement.  They decided to do that.  Plus, Sam was the one who lied about what the symbols left and got into an argument with a real Lanape person about it.  Sure, that was because Sass lied and she trusted him, but how was anybody else supposed to know she wasn't being a crazy know it all.

[SmithW6079]

My point with the tree is that it appeared to straddle both properties, but the neighbors didn't bother to consult Jay and Sam before unilaterally having it cut down. That's bad neighboring. They should have gone to them, explained the situation and gone from there. We still could have had the same story. Just without the neighbors coming across as the bad guys. 

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

They weren't made to do the land acknowledgement.  They decided to do that.  Plus, Sam was the one who lied about what the symbols left and got into an argument with a real Lanape person about it.  Sure, that was because Sass lied and she trusted him...

The neighbors also benefit from the Lanapes' land, perhaos even more so, so it would have been appropriate for them to acknowledge it also.

[shapeshifter]

19 hours ago, DanaK said:

I would love for Bob to return. It would be interesting for Sam to tell him about Sas or find some way for him to communicate with Sas directly through some sort of spiritual ceremony of some sort

8 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I think they should’ve just told him this episode. It was easy enough to convince Bela, and it would definitely help Sam explain why she went so hard on contradicting him. 

This is another example of something that could have been explored if the show was on cable and had 30+ minutes of dialog.
But I also appreciate that the show reaches a wider, possibly more diverse audience by being on network TV. 
So hopefully Bob can come back, maybe for an episode in which:

56 minutes ago, SmithW6079 said:

The neighbors also benefit from the Lanapes' land, perhaos even more so, so it would have been appropriate for them to acknowledge it also.

Then maybe the neighbors and Bob could "meet" the ghosts.
Maybe some wacky tobacky will get smoked as part of the ceremony (brought by the neighbors) and the neighbors will think they only meet the ghosts when they're under the influence, with a lot of winking by the neighbors to Sam and Jay. 
This could all happen next season to coordinate availability of the actors. Plus, the writers may just be considering this now.

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, SmithW6079 said:

The neighbors also benefit from the Lanapes' land, perhaos even more so, so it would have been appropriate for them to acknowledge it also.

If they wanted to, I guess.  Sam and Jay only acknowledged it in front of one Lanape (plus Sass).  It's not like they called some great press conference and had it televised, or invited all the Lanapes in the area.

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

Thank goodness. The only thing that would make Sam look more like a Karen would be to throw a “look at how much of a Karen I’m not” press conference. 
 

I wonder if the Lenape cultural center that Bob works at is supposed to be the real life one that the show’s consultant founded. His name is Joe Baker and he recently gave a lecture at a museum near me (I also live on Lenape land). I wasn’t able to attend but I wish I could’ve. 

[TV Anonymous]

On 10/23/2022 at 2:22 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Some of us have been having those "boundary issues" for a while over in the Ghostly Incongruities thread:

(Mentioning that here since it helps keep the discussion all in one place rather than scattered across the individual episode threads.)

This is exactly. The logic is what the writers decide it is logic. Flower and Hetty can sit on a washing machine and have their bodies shaken by the machine. Why do they not phase down to the tub?

[LexieLily]

Sometimes it takes me longer to come up with my favorite line of the episode than it does to write out the episode commentary to post, lol. This week I finally landed on Pete's sarcasm about Sam's op-ed article doing well. I do love me some sarcastic Pete. 

"Babe, good news! Your article is trending. Well, I mean, locally. In between "missing cow" and "weatherman with a secret family."
"Nice!"
"Well, not for the cow's owner or the weatherman's wife, but sure, enjoy your moment."

The land acknowledgment at the end of the episode with Bob was so wonderful. I'm sure it meant everything to Sass to hear someone speaking his native language again after not being able to hear it for so long, and I agree with @DanaK's post: they should figure out a way to bring Bob back and have him communicate with Sass. How, I'm not sure. Gotta say, though, I expected it to end with Sam or Jay presenting Sass with the portion of the tree with his Shiki marks for his room, or to hang somewhere in the house. Maybe in an episode later this season we'll see it? (Side note: I know Sass is the second-oldest ghost in death years, but he acts like such a little boy/teenager. Even if it was just a "hi tree," him keeping track of how many times his crush said hi to him is super-cute!)

Thor pretending to be interested in the environment in order to impress Flower only to be interested for real once he learned about how salmon (and cod, and herring...) would be endangered cracked me up. Trevor's advice was actually good on a general level, and if forced to choose I'd rather Thor take advice from Trevor and not from all those reality shows he and Sasappis watch, but...yeah XD. Flower's ultimate advice to him about how you can't just yell at people you need to inspire them, did lead to the very incredible thing Thor did for Sass and his people. Yay Flower.

(Even if the ceremony did end up in a friendzone group chant at the end. LOL. Trevor can add 'friendzone' to the list of phrases none of the other ghosts know the real meaning of.)

And HETTY! Two episodes ago she was embarrassed and ashamed of what happened to her on the washing machine and now she's seeking out Trevor to ask him to look up stableboys on the computer. Trevor did her one better and found her a TV show that had stableboys in it. Get it, Hetty!

Isaac and Hetty were somewhat excited at the idea that Sam might be pregnant. I don't know that I'd want a Baby Arondekar so soon but maybe (in the far far future, knock on wood) when the series is in it's final season? I'd LOVE to see the ghosts dealing with a pregnant Sam and a baby in the mansion, especially if their baby turns out to be one of the special children that can see ghosts. But I wouldn't want Jay to be left out if both his wife AND his kid can see the ghosts that have become their extended family when he can't :(

Edited July 12, 2023 by LexieLily

[Annber03]

20 minutes ago, LexieLily said:

Sometimes it takes me longer to come up with my favorite line of the episode than it does to write out the episode commentary to post, lol. This week I finally landed on Pete's sarcasm about Sam's op-ed article doing well. I do love me some sarcastic Pete. 

"Babe, good news! Your article is trending. Well, I mean, locally. In between "missing cow" and "weatherman with a secret family."
"Nice!"
"Well, not for the cow's owner or the weatherman's wife, but sure, enjoy your moment."

Hahaha, I love that exchange, too :D. Pete's dry commentary in those kinds of moments is the best. 

Quote

Gotta say, though, I expected it to end with Sam or Jay presenting Sass with the portion of the tree with his Shiki marks for his room, or to hang somewhere in the house. Maybe in an episode later this season we'll see it? (Side note: I know Sass is the second-oldest ghost in death years, but he acts like such a little boy/teenager. Even if it was just a "hi tree," him keeping track of how many times his crush said hi to him is super-cute!)

Aw, that would've been a cute idea :). It is a shame that they weren't able to spare even a section of the tree for him, yeah :(. 

And yeah, as funny as the running gag of everyone's reactions to the markings was, I thought the "hi" markings were sweet, too. Sasappis puts on this totally jaded demeanor, but moments like that are a great way to reveal another side of him - in this case, a more romantic one :). 

Quote

Thor pretending to be interested in the environment in order to impress Flower only to be interested for real once he learned about how salmon (and cod, and herring...) would be endangered cracked me up. 

I also liked that storyline because it ties nicely into the first season, when they were imagining Thor being outraged at people staying at the B&B and littering. And he's got a genuine love of nature, too, so it makes sense that he'd wind up getting invested for real in trying to protect the planet. Even if he goes kind of overboard in how he tries to make his point :p. 

Quote

LOVE to see the ghosts dealing with a pregnant Sam and a baby in the mansion, especially if their baby turns out to be one of the special children that can see ghosts. But I wouldn't want Jay to be left out if both his wife AND his kid can see the ghosts that have become their extended family when he can't :(

...oh, god, wouldn't that be a kick in the gut? Maybe by then they'll have figured out more ways for Jay to interact and communicate with the ghosts, even if he still never gets to actually see them? 

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, LexieLily said:

I'd LOVE to see the ghosts dealing with a pregnant Sam and a baby in the mansion, especially if their baby turns out to be one of the special children that can see ghosts. But I wouldn't want Jay to be left out if both his wife AND his kid can see the ghosts that have become their extended family when he can't :(

Jay is so easy going about the existence of ghosts he can’t see, that I think

Spoiler

he’d be able to handle almost anything. Jay is like the anti-Darrin of Bewitched.
Anyway, if Sam and Jay have a baby, they *must* name it Tabitha.

Editing to spoiler tag for anyone new to the show.

Edited July 12, 2023 by shapeshifter