S01.E01: Shadow of the Past

[JTMacc99]

Episode Synopsis:

Series premier: Galadriel is disturbed by signs of an ancient evil’s return; Elrond is presented with an intriguing new venture; Nori breaks the Harfoot community’s most deeply held rule.

Reminder: 

There is open air book talk here. If you are just watching the TV show and you don't want to stumble into any book talk you should leave now. Book Talk assumes you have read any of the related books or stories.

[Anduin]

Wow. Hell of a way to start. Very few coherent thoughts, I'll have to rewatch. But I loved it!

[Raachel2008]

I loved it. It is GORGEOUS. I don't think I have ever seen such a beautiful show on TV/streaming ever.  Loved Galadriel jumping on the sea and watching the gates to Valinor closing. Fucking wonderful. 

[Haleth]

I thought there was a lot of good, some kind of bad, and some really cheesy. (I only watched the first episode.) But it was beautiful, oh, so glorious! The colors, the sets, the landscapes, the music, all created to evoke memories of the movies.

The Good:

As I said, the music, the colors, and the spectacle. I don't think there has ever been a more beautiful production for tv.

Morfydd Clark was fine as Galadriel, fiery and driven. She'll be able to hold her own as a main character. Loved her killing the troll, even if the choreography for it could catagorize it as cheesy. It was fun.

Harfoots/feet. I thought they were adorable and much needed lightness for the show.

Ismael Cruz Cordoba is one beautiful man. I like him with Bronwyn. Extra credit for his buddy's shout out re the only two Elf/Human pairings ending in tragedy. Sneaking in a reference to the Sil. Love it.

Ohhh, who/what is that naked man doing in the middle of the fiery meteor crater?

The Bad:

Good lord, not another whiny teenager who gets into trouble because he's pissed off at his mother. Spare me.

I'm holding judgment of the casting of Elrond. So far I think Robert Aramayo was miscast and his friendship with Glads is borderline creepy knowing he marries her daughter.

Galadriel jumping off the boat in the middle of the ocean. Oh, come on!

The Cheesy:

All the Elven rituals, especially as the ship was about to enter the waters of Valinor.

A lot of the dialog was pretty cringy. They obviously wanted to mirror the movies, but it came off as unnatural.

____

I'm looking forward to watching the second epi tonight and finally seeing Numenor and Khazad-dum. It's unfortunate there are only 8 episodes (right?) since they need 2 of them to set up this vast show.

Edited September 2, 2022 by Haleth

[Anduin]

I rewatched this. Still great. Nice little detail, the wind on the Tir Harad tower and the elven ship. Something that I wouldn't have thought of, but makes all the difference.

But the Tir Harad village reminded me of Witcher 3. Every little backwater in Velen. I don't want LOTR to remind me of other things, I want it to stand alone and above other things.

Okay, the ship to Valinor. That too felt familiar, though I can't say what. Maybe a little bit Rogue One hallway? The whole quit messing around and get out of there? But it looked familiar and I can't place it. Anyone else think they know what I'm thinking of?

[Featherhat]

It really was beautiful. 

My thoughts are pretty jumbled right now and I think I'm going to need a second viewing to absorb it all. But I do know I am going to have to turn off my Silm geek head and just try to enjoy it as it's own story as I did the LOTR trilogy (I couldn't do it with the Hobbit unfortunately). 

"Galadriel" in Valinor instead of Artanis, Silm chronology all over the place, Galadriel's oath to end Sauron because of Finrod etc etc I know there's some question of what they were allowed to use from anywhere not the Appendixes but still. 

I do like Morfydd Clark a lot as Galadriel though. 

[Grimnar]

It was okay first episode but kind of boring, which is problem when you want people to come for next episodes.

Visual is good, music is also nice. Acting is ok(some are better, some worse), dialog and some scenes are cringe/cheese.

I would like to know which changes in lore were forced by lacking rights/license and which were done on purpose by writters. 

Did I missed it or Celeborn wasn't mentioned?

[Haleth]

I’m watching again and kind of chucking at the prologue and all the hand waving of events, describing what happened without mentioning three little rocks and the obsession a certain red head and his brothers had with them. Never mind all that. Details.

[QuantumMechanic]

So what exactly do they have the rights to? I was surprised to see any First Age references at all (like the Trees). Or was that limited special dispensation they got just for the first episode?

I wish they could have used or at least mentioned the Kinslaying rather than the “Galadriel hops off the boat” as the reason to keep her in Middle-earth.

Overall I found it ok though somewhat draggy. I think I can do without the Harfoots.

And yeah, I really need to turn off legendarium brain or else this show will drive me bonkers.

Not sure what the point of searching for Sauron is since the Elves have no idea where he is until he forges the One. So Galadriel is never going to find him before then absent a major canon break.

[Camera One]

Just now, QuantumMechanic said:

So what exactly do they have the rights to? I was surprised to see any First Age references at all (like the Trees). Or was that limited special dispensation they got just for the first episode?

I wish they could have used or at least mentioned the Kinslaying rather than the “Galadriel hops off the boat” as the reason to keep her in Middle-earth.

For 1st and 2nd age info, they only have rights to whatever is written down in the Appendices at the end of "Lord of the Rings".   It affected what they referenced and what they didn't.

Unable to bring in the specifics, the history prologue felt very vague and generic and made the First Age seem rather uninteresting.  There was peace and then there was endless war and lots of people died.

Edited September 3, 2022 by Camera One

[QuantumMechanic]

So that other Elf was warning Arondir that there had been only two pairings of Man and Elf and they both ended badly.

Obviously one is Beren and Luthien, presumably.  And the other (at the point in time this show is set) must be Tuor and Idril.  I wouldn't say either of those ended badly/sadly even if some rough things happened along the way. 

[Haleth]

7 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

So that other Elf was warning Arondir that there had been only two pairings of Man and Elf and they both ended badly.

Obviously one is Beren and Luthien, presumably.  And the other (at the point in time this show is set) must be Tuor and Idril.  I wouldn't say either of those ended badly/sadly even if some rough things happened along the way. 

And some good things happened!  Earendil petitioned the Valar to help defeat Morgoth.  Elrond and Elros were born.  

[Quark]

I absolutely loved this, it is such a beautiful show.

[quarks]

On 9/2/2022 at 10:36 PM, QuantumMechanic said:

So what exactly do they have the rights to? I was surprised to see any First Age references at all (like the Trees). Or was that limited special dispensation they got just for the first episode?

I wish they could have used or at least mentioned the Kinslaying rather than the “Galadriel hops off the boat” as the reason to keep her in Middle-earth.

Overall I found it ok though somewhat draggy. I think I can do without the Harfoots.

And yeah, I really need to turn off legendarium brain or else this show will drive me bonkers.

Not sure what the point of searching for Sauron is since the Elves have no idea where he is until he forges the One. So Galadriel is never going to find him before then absent a major canon break.

My understanding is that they have the rights to anything referenced in The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit, so can use anything that at least got name dropped in either book - like Gondolin.  I just checked, and in The Two Towers, while explaining the palantirs to Pippin, Gandalf says:

"....to look across the wide seas of water and of time to Tirion the Fair, and perceive the unimaginable hand and mind of Feanor at their work, while both the White Tree and the Golden Tree were in flower!"

And then in The Return of the King, after Gandalf and Aragorn find a new Magic Tree, Gandalf says, "Verily this is a sapling of the line of Nimloth the fair; and that was a seedling of Galathilion, and that a fruit of Telperion of many names, Eldest of Trees."

So, the Two Trees seem to be fair game. But I couldn't find a reference to the Kinslaying in LOTR, so I think that's out. 

Agreed, though, that this show will drive you and me bonkers if we keep thinking about details from the books!

23 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

So that other Elf was warning Arondir that there had been only two pairings of Man and Elf and they both ended badly.

Obviously one is Beren and Luthien, presumably.  And the other (at the point in time this show is set) must be Tuor and Idril.  I wouldn't say either of those ended badly/sadly even if some rough things happened along the way. 

I know! I was like, look, I know you're seriously restricted in what, exactly, you can say about Tuor and Idril, but a) nothing in Lord of the Rings implies that Tuor and Idril had any sort of unhappy ending; b) sure, Gondolin fell shortly after Tuor showed up and married Idril, but it's very clear in all of the various versions that this wasn't directly because of their marriage, c) according to The Silmarillion, they seem to be still alive! And happy! Ever after!  But maybe the character in the show doesn't know that, and thinks they drowned somewhere.

Small things like this were why I ended up enjoying all of the original characters/settings more than the book reference stuff.  It is at least lovely to look at, and I'm enjoying it so far, despite my nitpicks.

[susannot]

I'm still confused by the rights issue.  The article on the front page of Primetimer today, the one about interesting characters, says that the show will tell the tale of Numenor, which was told in the Silmarillion.  Is the tale of Numenor also recounted in the Appendices?  I just don't remember.  Either way, I am looking forward to it.  

Someone in one of the threads mentioned that there has been a white supremacist backlash to the show.  Really?  I must have missed it, but I'm not surprised.

[Camera One]

9 hours ago, susannot said:

I'm still confused by the rights issue.  The article on the front page of Primetimer today, the one about interesting characters, says that the show will tell the tale of Numenor, which was told in the Silmarillion.  Is the tale of Numenor also recounted in the Appendices?  I just don't remember. 

It is confusing.  The Appendices provide an outline of events in the First and Second Age, including the basics of what happened in Numenor.  It's sort of like looking at a summary timeline of British history, with a list and brief description of monarchs and a selective chronology of major events. 

So I am assuming the series has the rights to the major (named) historical characters and the significant events, and anything else referenced about the past in dialogue in LoTR, but the show writers get to fill in what's missing. 

What I don't understand is how that works, if they cannot explicitly use the details from the Silmarillion, and I've heard that they also can't contradict Tolkien's words.  I'm not sure if this awkward dance could become a bit of a hindrance in the writing.

Edited September 5, 2022 by Camera One

[JustHereForFood]

It was so beautiful, especially the Elf cities. Also, I never cared much for Galadriel, not sure if it was becaus of Cate Blanchet or just that the character did nothing for me, but I really liked her here, she might even be my favorite character so far.

One complain, the scene with Elves sailing west, the ship looked way too small for them and they all looked like members of some cult to me. I get that going West is some huge thing for them, but with the light and everything, it looked quite creepy. 

I am wary of the potential human-elf love story, hopefully it won't be too melodramatic.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, susannot said:

I'm still confused by the rights issue.  The article on the front page of Primetimer today, the one about interesting characters, says that the show will tell the tale of Numenor, which was told in the Silmarillion.  Is the tale of Numenor also recounted in the Appendices?  I just don't remember.  Either way, I am looking forward to it.  

Someone in one of the threads mentioned that there has been a white supremacist backlash to the show.  Really?  I must have missed it, but I'm not surprised.

The story of Numenor is name-dropped here and there in The Lord of the Rings, and there's an outline of it in Appendix A. So although I don't think they can use the unfinished story in Unfinished Tales (about the king that liked going out to sea, and his unhappy marriage), I think they can work with stuff in that brief outline.

9 minutes ago, Camera One said:

What I don't understand is how that works, if they cannot explicitly use the details from the Silmarillion, and I've heard that they also can't contradict Tolkien's words.  I'm not sure if this awkward dance could become a bit of a hindrance in the writing.

Apart from the whole "Where is Celeborn?" question, I did catch a couple of things that seem to contradict Tolkien's words:

1. Gil-galad choosing who could and could not sail back to Valinor. In the books, that was very much a "By the grace of the Valar" thing, not a "hey, the Elf Kings get to pick the winners" thing. Admittedly, I can't think of any specific textual point that contradicts that scene, but it does seem to go against Tolkien's general Catholic belief in divine grace, as interpreted through Hobbits.

2. The scene where Elrond is told that only "elf-lords" can attend a specific function. I realize he's Elrond Half-Elven, but in the books, he's the only surviving grandson of Turgon, King of Gondolin and High King of the Noldor Elves, and also the only surviving great-grandson of Elwe Thingol, King of Doriath, and Melian the Maia. I kinda figured that would place him in the elf-lord category, just as the fact that I actually know this places me in the "spent way too much time reading Tolkien" category. 

[Haleth]

9 hours ago, quarks said:

1. Gil-galad choosing who could and could not sail back to Valinor. In the books, that was very much a "By the grace of the Valar" thing, not a "hey, the Elf Kings get to pick the winners" thing. Admittedly, I can't think of any specific textual point that contradicts that scene, but it does seem to go against Tolkien's general Catholic belief in divine grace, as interpreted through Hobbits.

2. The scene where Elrond is told that only "elf-lords" can attend a specific function. I realize he's Elrond Half-Elven, but in the books, he's the only surviving grandson of Turgon, King of Gondolin and High King of the Noldor Elves, and also the only surviving great-grandson of Elwe Thingol, King of Doriath, and Melian the Maia. I kinda figured that would place him in the elf-lord category, just as the fact that I actually know this places me in the "spent way too much time reading Tolkien" category. 

Omigosh, I was thinking about both these things this morning.  For the first, I have no answer, but for your second point I was thinking maybe because of the mudblood thing?  Because he isn't pure Elvish maybe that disqualifies him as an Elvish lord?  Until he's about the only one left at least.

[quarks]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Omigosh, I was thinking about both these things this morning.  For the first, I have no answer, but for your second point I was thinking maybe because of the mudblood thing?  Because he isn't pure Elvish maybe that disqualifies him as an Elvish lord?  Until he's about the only one left at least.

Tolkien does spend a lot of time talking about how proud all the Noldor are, so, maybe?  And some of the Sindar seem to have that trait as well.

So I guess I can fanwank that at least during the period depicted on this show, quite a few of those Noldor/Sindar Elves had, shall we say, concerns about anyone who did not have pure Elven blood, which at this point was just Elrond. And then, later, when Elrond took over Rivendell, he countered that narrative by insisting that everyone listen over and over and over to the great tales of his grandparents Tuor and Idril and Beren and Luthien, and the songs of Earendil, which explains why he was just fine with a hobbit singing a long song about his father during a feast and later inserting that song into the Red Book of Westmarch - all part of the propaganda effort.

[Ilovepie]

I feel like this show is absolutely beautiful, but man that was quite boring. I have read The Hobbit and LOTR books, and the Silmarillion as well, but it was decades ago and anything I remember at this point is from the movies, which I have not seen since they originally came out. All this to say, I am rusty on Middle Earth history.  I ended up spending half this episode googling LOTR characters, places and timelines. I know it was just the first, but I truly hope it picks up. I could live without this version of hobbits. It just feels like they are trying too hard to mimic the movies.

I like the actress playing Galadriel, I think she was well cast. I am completely distracted by Elrond's hair - it looks like Steve Harrington lite.

[QuantumMechanic]

26 minutes ago, Ilovepie said:

I like the actress playing Galadriel, I think she was well cast. I am completely distracted by Elrond's hair - it looks like Steve Harrington lite.

Clearly Elrond needs to be seen fighting with a hobnailed club :)

[Bruinsfan]

On 9/5/2022 at 6:50 AM, Haleth said:

Omigosh, I was thinking about both these things this morning.  For the first, I have no answer, but for your second point I was thinking maybe because of the mudblood thing?  Because he isn't pure Elvish maybe that disqualifies him as an Elvish lord?  Until he's about the only one left at least.

I can see him being treated as different, but you'd think they'd cut him some slack what with his human heritage being from the most heroic mortals ever (both with personal favor from the Valar), and one of the actual Maiar as his great-great-granny.

[Affogato]

On 9/4/2022 at 3:56 PM, Camera One said:

It is confusing.  The Appendices provide an outline of events in the First and Second Age, including the basics of what happened in Numenor.  It's sort of like looking at a summary timeline of British history, with a list and brief description of monarchs and a selective chronology of major events. 

So I am assuming the series has the rights to the major (named) historical characters and the significant events, and anything else referenced about the past in dialogue in LoTR, but the show writers get to fill in what's missing. 

What I don't understand is how that works, if they cannot explicitly use the details from the Silmarillion, and I've heard that they also can't contradict Tolkien's words.  I'm not sure if this awkward dance could become a bit of a hindrance in the writing.

I think I need to read a lot more of the promotions and reviews for the series. It does seem like it is an awkward situation.

[Affogato]

Elrond may simply not be a member of the council. He may join them often in his function as a Herald without being a full member.