S02.E02: The Way We Were

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

Allison has a new plan to escape her domestic hell and get back to the woman she used to be. Patty has a new problem: confronting her intimacy issues with Tammy. Meanwhile, Kevin’s newfound fame lands him an interview with the local paper.

Original air date 2022.08.22 Streaming on AMC+

Original air date network 2022.08.29

[Spartan Girl]

I already watched this on AMC+, is it okay to post my thoughts now or wait til next week?

[Harvey]

5 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

I already watched this on AMC+, is it okay to post my thoughts now or wait til next week?

Post it, I need to know!

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

Post it, I need to know!

Alrighty then…

Neil is somehow both more sinister and more pathetic outside sitcomland. I think he’s starting to wake up and smell the coffee that Kevin doesn’t treat him any better than Alison. It would be quite the twist if he somehow snaps and kills Kevin.

Sam is still a douche. Pretty sure firing a worker because she is no longer interested in having sex with you counts as sexual harassment.

I wish Alison’s aunt just ditching her cheating husband would have made her realize she doesn’t have to fake her death to dump Kevin’s ass.

[Aileen]

I’m glad the aunt is gone. I thought it was odd that she had such a big role in the two episodes as I don’t remember seeing much of her (or any?) after Alison quit her job last year.

I thought it was really interesting to see Neil’s realizations that his relationship with Kevin wasn’t as equal as he thought. I like this role/actor this season, whereas last year he felt like AshtonKutcherLite to me.

[KarenX]

10 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

It would be quite the twist if he somehow snaps and kills Kevin.

Well… he and Allison have now defended Patty to Kevin the exact same way at the exact same time. He is not totally unaligned to her.

[Broderbits]

I want to know more about that stolen item Kevin had stashed in the aunt's husband's storage unit. Does he have more stolen stuff there and will he be found out?

Apparently Alison had a good opportunity to leave town after high school; now her aunt has shown her how to leave a marriage. What the hell is wrong with her!

[Spartan Girl]

9 hours ago, Broderbits said:

I want to know more about that stolen item Kevin had stashed in the aunt's husband's storage unit. Does he have more stolen stuff there and will he be found out?

Apparently Alison had a good opportunity to leave town after high school; now her aunt has shown her how to leave a marriage. What the hell is wrong with her!

Patty spelled it out in the last episode: Alison has the unfortunate habit of Playing the Victim Card every chance she gets.

[Avabelle]

At the moment I’m most interested in Neil’s storyline. I know he’s awful but he’s also kind of breaking my heart a bit?

[Starchild]

On 8/28/2022 at 10:26 PM, Broderbits said:

I want to know more about that stolen item Kevin had stashed in the aunt's husband's storage unit. Does he have more stolen stuff there and will he be found out?

Apparently Alison had a good opportunity to leave town after high school; now her aunt has shown her how to leave a marriage. What the hell is wrong with her!

I wonder if, as people were speculating last season, Kevin is actually much more abusive to her "offstage." We don't know if he's the one who stole that card, or if he unwittingly obtained stolen goods, but if it's the former that would be a clue that he is much less "oblivious man-child" and more "devious bastard" than he appears. 

Maybe we'll find out that he has told Allison "if you leave me, if you tell anyone, I will kill you." Maybe that's why she feels Kevin can't find her if she leaves, and has to fake her death to make that happen.

ETA: 

I'd have to rewatch, but is Allison more deferential to Kevin when they're alone? Does she only get smart-mouthed when it's "safe" i.e. when someone else is around? Have we seen her not covered in clothes head-to-toe? Have we seen bruises that no one calls attention to, so we don't really register them?

Edited August 30, 2022 by Starchild
Musing

[seacliffsal]

I think the pacing of the story has an impact on my lack of caring about Allison.  She really uses the people around her for her own purposes.  That was quite a wound on Neil's head and it seems like there could be long-term impacts of that injury.  

Still don't care for Patti's cop girlfriend (who just shows up like that?).

I am here until the end as I usually stick with shows even as I grow frustrated with them (unless, of course, they really do something outrageous like killing puppies-then I will leave before the end of the series).

[Avabelle]

Yeah I agree a both the pacing. I really need to get to the end at this point as I fear im so over Alison that I’ll be rooting for Everyone bar her.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, Starchild said:

I'd have to rewatch, but is Allison more deferential to Kevin when they're alone? Does she only get smart-mouthed when it's "safe" i.e. when someone else is around? Have we seen her not covered in clothes head-to-toe? Have we seen bruises that no one calls attention to, so we don't really register them?

Not really. We've seen her get more and more smart-alecky in the last two episodes alone, insulting Kevin to his face and not even bothering to hide how much she hates him. Of course, it's sitcomland so the narrative is unreliable, so...

[cardigirl]

On 8/30/2022 at 9:32 AM, Starchild said:

I wonder if, as people were speculating last season, Kevin is actually much more abusive to her "offstage." We don't know if he's the one who stole that card, or if he unwittingly obtained stolen goods, but if it's the former that would be a clue that he is much less "oblivious man-child" and more "devious bastard" than he appears. 

Maybe we'll find out that he has told Allison "if you leave me, if you tell anyone, I will kill you." Maybe that's why she feels Kevin can't find her if she leaves, and has to fake her death to make that happen.

ETA: 

I'd have to rewatch, but is Allison more deferential to Kevin when they're alone? Does she only get smart-mouthed when it's "safe" i.e. when someone else is around? Have we seen her not covered in clothes head-to-toe? Have we seen bruises that no one calls attention to, so we don't really register them?

I will be disappointed if we suddenly have a "reveal" of Kevin being physically abusive to Allison in the next to last episode. All Allison has told anyone is that she needs to be rid of Kevin. Murder was her solution to an unhappy life situation. It has not made sense why she went to killing Kevin rather than try to divorce him or just leaving. He's been protrayed as so oblivious to her that I don't know if he would even notice if she were gone. 

It's daring to have Kevin only exist in the sitcom world, while Neil has now come over to the "real" world. One of my major criticisms of the show has been that Kevin has not been made unlikeable enough to make us root for Allison. Sure he's self-centered and obnoxious. He treats everyone according to how he needs them in his world. He's an oaf. But Allison seems incapable of tearing herself away from him. 

Two things stand out to me from last season: Kevin's birthday dinner where he wouldn't let Allison order the wine she wanted, only the house red. And the episode where he went after the "burglar" with a gun Allison didn't know he had. If he were truly abusive, wouldn't he have had Allison investigate? 

I liked this episode in that I'm finding some sympathy for Neil and his "awakening." 

[Cranberry]

20 minutes ago, cardigirl said:

It's daring to have Kevin only exist in the sitcom world, while Neil has now come over to the "real" world. One of my major criticisms of the show has been that Kevin has not been made unlikeable enough to make us root for Allison.

This take is always so interesting to me, because for my brother and me, season one hit hard. Even through the sitcom filter, we immediately recognized the kind of abuse Kevin doles out because it's how our dad has always treated our mom -- never physical abuse, but constant belittling and controlling and jealousy/suspicion and hypocrisy. That may not break someone's body, but it can break their spirit and make them feel depressed, anxious, worthless, and trapped.

[cardigirl]

48 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

This take is always so interesting to me, because for my brother and me, season one hit hard. Even through the sitcom filter, we immediately recognized the kind of abuse Kevin doles out because it's how our dad has always treated our mom -- never physical abuse, but constant belittling and controlling and jealousy/suspicion and hypocrisy. That may not break someone's body, but it can break their spirit and make them feel depressed, anxious, worthless, and trapped.

I guess it was delivered in such a way that I didn't see Allison as being a victim, at least not as much of one as she seems to think she is. But I was mostly replying to the speculation about what Kevin does "in the real world" to Allison, and how disappointed I will be if they show him as markedly different. 

I understand that abuse doesn't have to be physical, and that mental and emotional abuse is as damaging. I'm not saying that it isn't. What I've been shown on screen does not make me root for Allison. It's difficult to explain, but she comes off as much a user as Kevin is. 

I'm sorry for your experiences. 

I also understand that someone can get so far down that they see no way out. And I guess Allison is there, although she's planning murder as the exit. It's as if she cannot be free unless Kevin exists no more?  I don't know. I'm just not sure Kevin has been shown to be that difficult to ignore. Like she thought she could ruin him by getting his ridiculous ad to run a lot, and all it did was give him success. 

This show frustrates me a lot, and yet I continue to watch it. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by cardigirl

[TiffanyNichelle]

2 hours ago, Cranberry said:

This take is always so interesting to me, because for my brother and me, season one hit hard. Even through the sitcom filter, we immediately recognized the kind of abuse Kevin doles out because it's how our dad has always treated our mom -- never physical abuse, but constant belittling and controlling and jealousy/suspicion and hypocrisy. That may not break someone's body, but it can break their spirit and make them feel depressed, anxious, worthless, and trapped.

He also reported their car as stolen knowing she was using it because she didn't come back in time. And there was also the story of him hassling her boss when she was working at a job he didn't like. Allison can be unlikable and I like that she doesn't have to be this perfect heroine without any flaws but they dropped a lot of hints last season that Kevin isn't just the lovable goof that his wife is always in the wrong about. Like isn't that the whole point of the show? To show that the dark side of the goofy guys with buzzkill wife sitcom trope?

ETA, even if we aren't supposed to root for Alison, I don't think we're supposed to root for any of them. Patti has joined in on this conspiracy and lets people walk right over her. Neil is violent, has been arrested and uses his sister. Allison's aunt was selling her husband's stuff for trips and he also sounded like an asshole too. I'm waiting to see the glimpse of Kevin's dad in the real world. In the sitcom he tells Kevin to pretend he's single for an article? Does he not care about his daughter in law at all?

Edited August 31, 2022 by TiffanyNichelle

[Starchild]

Exactly. I remember wondering in the first season if there was meta-commentary on how we view women who feel trapped in abusive situations with contempt because why doesn't she just leave? Because we don't see all the internal supporting mechansms that would enable that have been destroyed over time by this guy.

In Allison's case, I wonder if part of it is that she feels she's been robbed by Kevin, and yes she could cut her losses and take off, but she has a need to recoup some of her losses somehow. That's very common, for everyone not just emotionally abused domestic partners. 

ETA: didn't Kevin say something in this episode about always getting what he wants? Learned helplessness is real, yo.

Edited August 31, 2022 by Starchild

[cardigirl]

Quote

"I dunno if I fully agree with this, at least in so far as it pertains to a world of fiction; clearly establishing the ‘why’ seems pretty important with regards to character motivation. The audience only has the information the creators show them, so it’s all very well for them to have Allison say that she feels trapped; but if they don’t show the audience why she feels trapped, then the audience is going to keep wondering, well, why she doesn’t just leave instead of embarking on a scheme to murder him or fake her own death.

It kind of feels like they’ve created a bit of a rod for their own backs by only ever showing Kevin in ‘goofy sitcom’ mode while at the same time constantly suggesting that he’s actually an abusive monster several orders of magnitude worse than what we see, because while the audience certainly sees him as a self-centred boorish oaf, they never really see anything beyond that which would make it abundantly clear what a monster he is and why Allison feels that murder / faking her death is her only option. It’s a bit of a ‘show-don’t-tell’ thing, in that they’ve set things up so that their only option is to have Allison constantly tell the audience that Kevin is the kind of oppressive abuser that Allison would feel genuinely trapped by, but they’re not actually able to clearly show them this whenever Kevin himself is around because his sitcom world — and thus, the entire conceit of the show — would fall apart the second he does."

Taken from another review, a comment on why people are not fully onboard with murdering Kevin, yet. 

Though it seems we may soon see some backstory. 

Edited August 31, 2022 by cardigirl

[Daltrey]

If Kevin was being physically abusive wouldn't Sam have noticed it when they were having their affair and said something or asked Allison about it?

Very interested to see more of Neil's awakening to Kevin's poor treatment and complete lack of respect for him. That could be quite the reckoning given what we've seen of his real world persona. I'm also very curious to see why Allison feels there's no way she could have gone to college despite the reporter saying she had options. I'm wondering if maybe she got pregnant senior year or just after graduation. Perhaps they married out of convenience and it being the right thing to do, only for her to lose the baby and the ability to conceive again and Kevin holds it over and against her.

[Spartan Girl]

27 minutes ago, Daltrey said:

I'm also very curious to see why Allison feels there's no way she could have gone to college despite the reporter saying she had options. I'm wondering if maybe she got pregnant senior year or just after graduation. Perhaps they married out of convenience and it being the right thing to do, only for her to lose the baby and the ability to conceive again and Kevin holds it over and against her

I don’t think so. Kevin said last season that he didn’t even want kids.

[Cranberry]

They got married when they were 25 years old. In the pilot, they're both 35 and have been married for 10 years.

I did a rewatch this weekend before starting season two, and I jotted down all the indications that Kevin is emotionally abusive/generally a bad guy:

Specific examples, with episode numbers:

• Used Allison's student loan to invest in a failed business and never paid it back (1x01)
• Convinced Allison she's bad with money, so he takes care of all of it; wiped their shared account and has been lying about it (1x01)
• Constantly criticizes Allison's driving; convinced her she's a bad driver and made her hate driving; never lets her take "his" car (1x01)
• Had a feud with the mailwoman and got her deported (1x01)
• Won't laugh at Allison's jokes; tells her "you know what happens when you try to be funny" (1x02)
• Refuses to have children because they would pull focus from him (1x02); only changes his mind when he thinks Allison will claim his sperm have low motility and he wants to prove her wrong (1x07)
• Refuses to let Allison have a pet because he needs to be the cutest thing in the house (1x02)
• Set the neighbors' lawn on fire; xenophobic because they're English (1x02)
• Committed insurance fraud (hid all their belonging at Neil's and told the police they'd been stolen) (1x02)
• Called the police and reported the car stolen when Allison didn't answer her phone (he called 16 times and left 32 messages) (1x04)
• When Allison got a job as a paralegal, she started working a lot and Kevin convinced everyone she was having an affair with her married, 60-something boss. He put sugar in the boss's gas tank and ruined his car. Got Allison fired (1x04)
• Kicked Patty out of the group and refused to let anyone call her anything but "She-Devil" because she didn't bring him a burger (1x05)

General behavior:

• Doesn't cook or clean; leaves mess everywhere
• Expects to be waited on hand and foot
• Mocks Allison for being emotional (makes jokes about her period)
• Breaks/ruins/gives away Allison's things (or things she likes) and doesn't apologize or care (coffee table, clothing, dog)
• Doesn't listen to Allison when she talks, even when she repeats the same answer to his question multiple times
• Patronizes Allison, assuming she doesn't understand any jokes or references (for example, "Meat and Greet" in 1x08)
• Made a drinking game out of Allison's "whining" (i.e., what mostly seem to be valid objections to idiotic ideas)

Vague:

There have been a few mentions that Allison was on a successful swim team in high school (even making it to Nationals), was on track to go to college, and had lots of friends, but she "bailed" on the team after junior year and became isolated from everyone. Not sure if this is related, but Pete mentioned in 1x08 that "fun Allison" drowned in an incident at a waterpark. Not sure what this has to do with Kevin (yet, anyway). 

Do I think murdering Kevin is the right call? No, of course not. She says in season one that she can't leave because she'd only have $194 to her name, that he'd never let her leave, and that if she left, he'd find her. She says in this episode that divorce would be expensive and take years (and he'd never agree to it). Those all seem like things that can be worked around without someone dying/faking their own death. But I can see that after 10 years of being emotionally beaten down by a man who views her as simple-minded, helpless, unfunny, boring, and a nagging shrew, she would snap.

[Daltrey]

6 hours ago, Cranberry said:

They got married when they were 25 years old. In the pilot, they're both 35 and have been married for 10 years.

I did a rewatch this weekend before starting season two, and I jotted down all the indications that Kevin is emotionally abusive/generally a bad guy:

Specific examples, with episode numbers:

• Used Allison's student loan to invest in a failed business and never paid it back (1x01)
• Convinced Allison she's bad with money, so he takes care of all of it; wiped their shared account and has been lying about it (1x01)
• Constantly criticizes Allison's driving; convinced her she's a bad driver and made her hate driving; never lets her take "his" car (1x01)
• Had a feud with the mailwoman and got her deported (1x01)
• Won't laugh at Allison's jokes; tells her "you know what happens when you try to be funny" (1x02)
• Refuses to have children because they would pull focus from him (1x02); only changes his mind when he thinks Allison will claim his sperm have low motility and he wants to prove her wrong (1x07)
• Refuses to let Allison have a pet because he needs to be the cutest thing in the house (1x02)
• Set the neighbors' lawn on fire; xenophobic because they're English (1x02)
• Committed insurance fraud (hid all their belonging at Neil's and told the police they'd been stolen) (1x02)
• Called the police and reported the car stolen when Allison didn't answer her phone (he called 16 times and left 32 messages) (1x04)
• When Allison got a job as a paralegal, she started working a lot and Kevin convinced everyone she was having an affair with her married, 60-something boss. He put sugar in the boss's gas tank and ruined his car. Got Allison fired (1x04)
• Kicked Patty out of the group and refused to let anyone call her anything but "She-Devil" because she didn't bring him a burger (1x05)

General behavior:

• Doesn't cook or clean; leaves mess everywhere
• Expects to be waited on hand and foot
• Mocks Allison for being emotional (makes jokes about her period)
• Breaks/ruins/gives away Allison's things (or things she likes) and doesn't apologize or care (coffee table, clothing, dog)
• Doesn't listen to Allison when she talks, even when she repeats the same answer to his question multiple times
• Patronizes Allison, assuming she doesn't understand any jokes or references (for example, "Meat and Greet" in 1x08)
• Made a drinking game out of Allison's "whining" (i.e., what mostly seem to be valid objections to idiotic ideas)

Vague:

There have been a few mentions that Allison was on a successful swim team in high school (even making it to Nationals), was on track to go to college, and had lots of friends, but she "bailed" on the team after junior year and became isolated from everyone. Not sure if this is related, but Neil mentioned in 1x08 that "fun Allison" died in an incident at a waterpark. Not sure what this has to do with Kevin (yet, anyway). 

Do I think murdering Kevin is the right call? No, of course not. She says in season one that she can't leave because she'd only have $194 to her name, that he'd never let her leave, and that if she left, he'd find her. She says in this episode that divorce would be expensive and take years (and he'd never agree to it). Those all seem like things that can be worked around without someone dying/faking their own death. But I can see that after 10 years of being emotionally beaten down by a man who views her as simple-minded, helpless, unfunny, boring, and a nagging shrew, she would snap.

Along with @Spartan Girl's comment above, I'd forgotten much of this. A binge rewatch before season 2 started would have been a better idea than I thought at the time, lol. Thanks for this.

[DrSpaceman73]

I think the writers kind of get stuck between two things with this conceit :

They have to make kevin unlikeable enough to believe Allison would go to the extreme of not simply leaving or divorcing him but actually has to fake her own death or kill him. 

At the same time they can go as far as making him physically abusive because then the sitcom element with Kevin is just inappropriate and in bad taste. 

It's a hard balance act to do. And they do the best they can but fall a bit short.  And it makes the show better in concept than in execution. 

But I still admire their idea and attempt at this concept. 

[DrSpaceman73]

17 hours ago, Cranberry said:

They got married when they were 25 years old. In the pilot, they're both 35 and have been married for 10 years.

I did a rewatch this weekend before starting season two, and I jotted down all the indications that Kevin is emotionally abusive/generally a bad guy:

Specific examples, with episode numbers:

• Used Allison's student loan to invest in a failed business and never paid it back (1x01)
• Convinced Allison she's bad with money, so he takes care of all of it; wiped their shared account and has been lying about it (1x01)
• Constantly criticizes Allison's driving; convinced her she's a bad driver and made her hate driving; never lets her take "his" car (1x01)
• Had a feud with the mailwoman and got her deported (1x01)
• Won't laugh at Allison's jokes; tells her "you know what happens when you try to be funny" (1x02)
• Refuses to have children because they would pull focus from him (1x02); only changes his mind when he thinks Allison will claim his sperm have low motility and he wants to prove her wrong (1x07)
• Refuses to let Allison have a pet because he needs to be the cutest thing in the house (1x02)
• Set the neighbors' lawn on fire; xenophobic because they're English (1x02)
• Committed insurance fraud (hid all their belonging at Neil's and told the police they'd been stolen) (1x02)
• Called the police and reported the car stolen when Allison didn't answer her phone (he called 16 times and left 32 messages) (1x04)
• When Allison got a job as a paralegal, she started working a lot and Kevin convinced everyone she was having an affair with her married, 60-something boss. He put sugar in the boss's gas tank and ruined his car. Got Allison fired (1x04)
• Kicked Patty out of the group and refused to let anyone call her anything but "She-Devil" because she didn't bring him a burger (1x05)

General behavior:

• Doesn't cook or clean; leaves mess everywhere
• Expects to be waited on hand and foot
• Mocks Allison for being emotional (makes jokes about her period)
• Breaks/ruins/gives away Allison's things (or things she likes) and doesn't apologize or care (coffee table, clothing, dog)
• Doesn't listen to Allison when she talks, even when she repeats the same answer to his question multiple times
• Patronizes Allison, assuming she doesn't understand any jokes or references (for example, "Meat and Greet" in 1x08)
• Made a drinking game out of Allison's "whining" (i.e., what mostly seem to be valid objections to idiotic ideas)

Vague:

There have been a few mentions that Allison was on a successful swim team in high school (even making it to Nationals), was on track to go to college, and had lots of friends, but she "bailed" on the team after junior year and became isolated from everyone. Not sure if this is related, but Neil mentioned in 1x08 that "fun Allison" died in an incident at a waterpark. Not sure what this has to do with Kevin (yet, anyway). 

Do I think murdering Kevin is the right call? No, of course not. She says in season one that she can't leave because she'd only have $194 to her name, that he'd never let her leave, and that if she left, he'd find her. She says in this episode that divorce would be expensive and take years (and he'd never agree to it). Those all seem like things that can be worked around without someone dying/faking their own death. But I can see that after 10 years of being emotionally beaten down by a man who views her as simple-minded, helpless, unfunny, boring, and a nagging shrew, she would snap.

That's a great summary and I forgot a bunch of it. An accumulation of horrible things he has done and just keeps doing with no change in behavior. 

At the same time last season I assumed Allison's spiral downward started when she met Kevin.   But based on what we know now it seems to predate him by at least a few years if not more. High school track star headed for college then seems senior year if high school even before he came along she changed. Was it her dad's illness?  Who knows.  Not really clear. But it was pre-kevin. 

[DanaK]

On 8/31/2022 at 1:36 PM, cardigirl said:

This show frustrates me a lot, and yet I continue to watch it. 

Yes, it frustrates me as well. The 2 halves don’t fully mesh together for me and it’s a really strange hybrid. I started watching because I thought it would be one thing but it ended up being something else. It’s intriguing but weird and messy. I do appreciate the amount of detail they put into the comedy side though, but I’m not sure they fully thought through about making the 2 sides work together well. Given this season is the end and has 8 episodes, I’m willing to watch it to the end and see how they resolve things

[PrincessPurrsALot]

There was also a comment made in an episode in season 1 that suggests that Kevin sexually assaulted Allison in that he forced her to perform a sex act that she did not agree to do. 

I find it interesting that they are focusing on emotional and financial abuse.  Many of the things they are showing are more extreme examples of the kinds of "shenanigans" we have been told to expect and find humorous when done by TV husbands.  The wives are expected to give an exasperated look or an eyeroll, but to never point out that the behavior puts the family at risk or is emotionally abusive.  It feels like people would be more accepting of the concept if he was physically abusive.  We've seen the woman attack her attacker and become triumphant in movies.  However, the reality is that all of these types of abuse take a heavy toll on a person. 

[Ailianna]

Another thing I thought they are showing well is that physical abuse tends to make the victim automatically sympathetic. But this emotional and financial control and abuse isn't so easy to see and many people don't get what's so bad about it, or why she doesn't just leave, or why she doesn't do x, y or z. But this is a very common form of abuse.

[Spartan Girl]

21 hours ago, PrincessPurrsALot said:

There was also a comment made in an episode in season 1 that suggests that Kevin sexually assaulted Allison in that he forced her to perform a sex act that she did not agree to do.

Ah yes, that scene. In sitcomland, it was framed as Kevin playfully asking for a certain act, most likely a blowjob. Cut to Bleak World with Allison in the bathroom disgustedly rinsing out her mouth.