S01.E07: The Doll's House

[Meredith Quill]

Quote

Lucienne comes to Morpheus with disturbing news. Rose Walker goes in search of family. Admirers of the Corinthian's work scheme to get his attention.

[starri]

As much as I probably shouldn't admit this, the post-coital scene between the Corinthian and Carl was REALLY sexy.  I'm glad Carl made it out.

The casting on this show is out of this world.  Stephen Fry is perfect for Gilbert in a way I can't describe.  So too all the other Florida housemates, and the appropriately creepy Nimrod, Funland, and gender-bent Good Doctor.  But I'm damned impressed they cast a Lyta who looks so much like Gal Gadot.

[paramitch]

Wow, this was a solid episode. Made me care deeply about Rose. And poor little Jed! I have some experience with the kind of abuse Jed suffered, and that was really hard to watch (between this, and Season 4 of "Stranger Things," I need my antianxiety meds for these shows, dammit)! But really strong episode -- love Rose's found family, the Florida folks were instantly lovable, and I was surprised to be so invested after just one hour.

On 8/6/2022 at 1:56 PM, starri said:

As much as I probably shouldn't admit this, the post-coital scene between the Corinthian and Carl was REALLY sexy.  I'm glad Carl made it out.

The casting on this show is out of this world.  Stephen Fry is perfect for Gilbert in a way I can't describe.  So too all the other Florida housemates, and the appropriately creepy Nimrod, Funland, and gender-bent Good Doctor.  But I'm damned impressed they cast a Lyta who looks so much like Gal Gadot.

Agreed! Fry was just lovely -- I'm always so happy to see him. And John Cameron Mitchell (legendary for Hedwig and the Angry Inch) as Hal! So awesome.

Also, can I just say how fantastic Boyd Holbrook has been here? He's charming, malevolent, ridiculously hot, and scary. Incredibly fun and charismatic.

I first saw him in "Narcos," and I thought he was okay but honestly I wouldn't have been able to pick him out of a lineup even after years of watching the show. He was just very "straight white male savior" cop.

Then I saw him in Logan, and was blown away. He was this incredibly strong, charismatic presence -- a terrific villain, and seriously funny, scary, and fascinating. It was a great reminder to me of how gifted actors can be, and of how they need to be given the chance to show what they can do (especially if cast against type).

He did the same thing yet again here -- he's instantly likable even when he points out what he's going to do to all these people we care about.

Seriously great performance, and I can't wait to see what Holbrook does next.

[AnimeMania]

I am not sure why Rose would need someone to apartment sit and Lyta would not. The stories would be so much better if they kind of wove them together. To briefly mention of someone is not the same as getting a snippet of the lives across multiple episodes. The episodes need a continuous thread to show that they are connected. The closest we get is The Corinthian and we know almost nothing about what he does or why he does it. Death had a great episode and we got a good understanding of what she does, I would have liked to have seen a snippet of what Desire and Despair do with their time. It might have even been funny to see Desire and Despair do things to keep people from having a good, restful sleep, in order to weaken Dream's power and add to their own. 

[rhiamon]

I was just so delighted (yes yes, I'm easily pleased) when the little girl with sleeping sickness from a seemingly throwaway scene in the pilot returned as the bewitchingly youthful-looking great-grandmother of over a century of age.

[Capricasix]

Paramitch, I’m with ya on Boyd Holbrook 😍😍😍

[paramitch]

10 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I am not sure why Rose would need someone to apartment sit and Lyta would not. The stories would be so much better if they kind of wove them together. To briefly mention of someone is not the same as getting a snippet of the lives across multiple episodes. The episodes need a continuous thread to show that they are connected. The closest we get is The Corinthian and we know almost nothing about what he does or why he does it. Death had a great episode and we got a good understanding of what she does, I would have liked to have seen a snippet of what Desire and Despair do with their time. It might have even been funny to see Desire and Despair do things to keep people from having a good, restful sleep, in order to weaken Dream's power and add to their own. 

I'm so glad you brought up Despair and Desire. First off, because I agree -- they aren't given nearly enough gravitas, and those are HUGE emotions, yet we learn nothing about them except that they are kind of just mean and shallow?

Which disappointed me. In fact, it was the one thing I was disappointed in here -- the casting for both Despair and Desire.

As an overweight woman IRL, seeing them make Despair a depressed overweight woman just felt like a cruel joke. Like, it's not even subtext. And for a show that has tried to be very LGBTQ+ and fluid/NB gender-positive, it's really disappointing to me. Like, I get it, everyone knows that fat women must be depressed. They must be in despair. They must be the Saddest People Ever! Sigh.

Secondly, I just don't care much for Park as Desire, although it may just be a styling/directorial issue. I love that they are NB in real life, and that's awesome. But I dislike the makeup and costuming -- which is very campy and feels out of place on this show.

I just picture Desire as being an entity who is more subtle and seductive. Like, a beautiful human (gender immaterial) who absolutely with every breath and every movement is intentional and locked in on their object/victim. So they can't think straight around them, are overcome with desire, etc.

I think Park is a stunning human who could have probably played the character more subtly and malevolently, but instead we just get Desire as this kind of petulant bitchy person with what I felt was rather exaggerated makeup and costume, and it seemed deliberately very drag-inspired. Which worked for the character of Hal in a beautiful and entertaining way that was also subtle and charming. But I feel like it's too over the top as a choice for Desire.

So that scene between Desire and Despair did not work at all for me. I hated the casting, costume, and makeup choices for both. And I was disappointed at the big reveal of their machinations because they are acted as being petty and silly, not as the acts of someone truly scary or intense.

Anyway.

6 hours ago, rhiamon said:

I was just so delighted (yes yes, I'm easily pleased) when the little girl with sleeping sickness from a seemingly throwaway scene in the pilot returned as the bewitchingly youthful-looking great-grandmother of over a century of age.

I loved seeing her return, and her actress is just so instantly lovable. I also liked that connectivity to the early episodes in a new way, so that the story feels less divided across the season (which it does for me, a bit).

2 hours ago, Capricasix said:

Paramitch, I’m with ya on Boyd Holbrook 😍😍😍

You are my people!

[millennium]

About 20 minutes into this episode I realized I don't care what happens to any of the characters in this show.   I'm closing the window and walking away.  Episode 6 was worth seeing but I will not be devoting even one more minute of my time on Earth to watching The Sandman.

The lead actor, Tom Sturridge, is a colossal bore who more often than not looks constipated.  Two of the three so-called controversial "woke" characters -- Lucifer and Desire -- leave me wondering what all the fuss was about.   Lucifer was no big-bad (her patent black leather outfit looked like she got it by mail order) and what I have seen of Desire so far leaves me feeling like I'm watching a tired and pernicious stereotype of transgender/non-binary people.   The Death actress is the standout, her performance was flawless.

My other complaint about the show is that it's too linear.   I would have expected a show about dreams and dreamworld to be surreal and cryptic, the scenes dissolving in and out, hazy and ambiguous, the underlying realities slowly revealed, culminating at the end.   Instead it's all very static and conventional.   Where I left off, Dream was standing in his palace with Lucienne talking about the dire state of his realm and I thought, put him in a chocolate factory and he's Willy Wonka.

That's when I knew it was time to wake up.

[QuantumMechanic]

23 hours ago, paramitch said:

Which disappointed me. In fact, it was the one thing I was disappointed in here -- the casting for both Despair and Desire.

As an overweight woman IRL, seeing them make Despair a depressed overweight woman just felt like a cruel joke. Like, it's not even subtext. And for a show that has tried to be very LGBTQ+ and fluid/NB gender-positive, it's really disappointing to me. Like, I get it, everyone knows that fat women must be depressed. They must be in despair. They must be the Saddest People Ever! Sigh.

Secondly, I just don't care much for Park as Desire, although it may just be a styling/directorial issue. I love that they are NB in real life, and that's awesome. But I dislike the makeup and costuming -- which is very campy and feels out of place on this show.

I just picture Desire as being an entity who is more subtle and seductive. Like, a beautiful human (gender immaterial) who absolutely with every breath and every movement is intentional and locked in on their object/victim. So they can't think straight around them, are overcome with desire, etc.

I think Park is a stunning human who could have probably played the character more subtly and malevolently, but instead we just get Desire as this kind of petulant bitchy person with what I felt was rather exaggerated makeup and costume, and it seemed deliberately very drag-inspired. Which worked for the character of Hal in a beautiful and entertaining way that was also subtle and charming. But I feel like it's too over the top as a choice for Desire.

Well, the show is in a tough spot on this, because (a) that is basically how those characters look in the comics (Despair actually looks worse and Desire is intentionally modeled on Nagel's art) , and (b) the comics have an intense fan base.  So on the one side there's what you're talking about and on the other side this is an adaption of an existing work and its characters have very iconic looks and styling.

[Zuleikha]

On 8/9/2022 at 7:21 PM, QuantumMechanic said:

(Despair actually looks worse and Desire is intentionally modeled on Nagel's art)

Despair looks uglier in the graphic novels, but I don't think Despair looks like an overweight woman. Despair is the least humanlike of the Endless. In the graphic novels, I always associated Despair's frame with the sensation a human feels in the grips of Despair... that Despair is like an unshakable boulder holding onto us. 

I don't exactly blame Donna Preston for not wanting to go around nearly naked in a diaper, but I think they needed to keep more of the inhumanity from the graphic novels with a prosthetic on her lower face to give her Despair's jutting jaw/fanged teeth and used heavier makeup to give her the deeply sunken eyes. They also could have bundled her up in torn, dirty clothes instead of the very normie looking jeans and a sweater and made her hair greasy/stringy. She didn't have a lot of opportunity in the scene to establish Despair's character, so it would have been nice for styling to give her more of a look.

I'm generally okay with Desire's look, but I wish they changed it up more so that Desire sometimes had more of a masc look and sometimes had more of a femme look. I also think the promo pics without the earrings look better than this episode's look with the earrings. I think the earrings pushed the overall look too close to drag queen whereas the promo pics don't look that way at all. Mason Alexander Park does bear an extraordinary resemblance to the typical graphic novel renditions of Desire, though.

[Anela]

On 8/8/2022 at 4:19 AM, paramitch said:

Wow, this was a solid episode. Made me care deeply about Rose. And poor little Jed! I have some experience with the kind of abuse Jed suffered, and that was really hard to watch (between this, and Season 4 of "Stranger Things," I need my antianxiety meds for these shows, dammit)! But really strong episode -- love Rose's found family, the Florida folks were instantly lovable, and I was surprised to be so invested after just one hour.

Agreed! Fry was just lovely -- I'm always so happy to see him. And John Cameron Mitchell (legendary for Hedwig and the Angry Inch) as Hal! So awesome.

Also, can I just say how fantastic Boyd Holbrook has been here? He's charming, malevolent, ridiculously hot, and scary. Incredibly fun and charismatic.

I first saw him in "Narcos," and I thought he was okay but honestly I wouldn't have been able to pick him out of a lineup even after years of watching the show. He was just very "straight white male savior" cop.

Then I saw him in Logan, and was blown away. He was this incredibly strong, charismatic presence -- a terrific villain, and seriously funny, scary, and fascinating. It was a great reminder to me of how gifted actors can be, and of how they need to be given the chance to show what they can do (especially if cast against type).

He did the same thing yet again here -- he's instantly likable even when he points out what he's going to do to all these people we care about.

Seriously great performance, and I can't wait to see what Holbrook does next.

I agree re: making despair an overweight woman.  
I also like the actress who played Lucifer, but Tom Ellis is that character, for me.  They said he’s too lovable, but he could be menacing when the show called for it.  
Stephen Fry! I love him.  

[thuganomics85]

There are some things that are absolute in life.  And one of them is that if you have a character who has a Jack O'Lantern for an actual head and talks in a snarky, almost Bronx like accent, you have to get Mark Hamill!  Hope we see more of Merv Pumpkinhead going forward!

So, it looks like at least some of this last half of the season is going to focus on this Rose Walker character, who is some kind of "Vortex" that has everyone in the realms kind of freaking out.  Not sure what is all going on here, but it looks like it will also involve her missing brother that apparently hasn't been sleeping since Morpheus and Lucienne can't find a trace of him in the Dream Realm?  Also, she's the descendent of Unity: that girl we saw way back in the pilot that was stuck in a dream coma when Sandman was captured.  Pretty neat reveal there.

Also, Stephen Fry!  Not sure how Gilbert is going to factor in going forward, but I'm all for Stephen Fry!

It seems my initial doubts about Boyd Holbrook are going away: I'm actually starting to dig The Corinthian as a potential big baddie.  He's got the right balance of natural charm but there is always something sinister behind those smiles.

I feel wrong for laughing as much as I did over the whole "Collector" gathering that is clearly just a code for serial killers.  Yeah, a serial killer convention probably isn't that far-fetched: especially on this show.

Still not sure what Desire (and now Despair too)'s motivation is yet to take out their sibling. 

[tennisgurl]

On 8/6/2022 at 3:56 PM, starri said:

As much as I probably shouldn't admit this, the post-coital scene between the Corinthian and Carl was REALLY sexy.  I'm glad Carl made it out.

I'm glad it wasn't just me! Although the sexiness was mixed in with a lot of nerves, I was very relieved when the Corinthian left without hurting Carl. Boyd Holbrook is just so damn charismatic, I can totally see why the show wanted to use him so much. I was also excited to see the first of the Collectors, all of whom are perfectly cast even in just a few brief scenes. Conventions are rough to plan, no matter what the topic. 

Speaking of great casting, I love the whole Florida gang, they all looked like they stepped right off the pages of the book and are instantly a lot of quirky fun, but I have to give special attention to Stephen Fry as Gilbert, which might be the best casting of the entire show, possibly one of the best fantasy castings I've seen in years. I even remember, while reading the book, that he reminded me of Stephen Fry, I am just so impressed, I cant wait to see more of him. I really like Rose and Jed already, even after one episode I care about them a lot, and it was cool seeing Unity again, from way back in episode one. That's what's so great about this story, even minor characters can easily come back again in ways you never expected. She sure does look good for her age, I guess sleeping for a few decades does the body good. Poor Jed, considering their dad did not sound like a very nice person, I imagine that knowing Jed's with friends of his isn't making Rose feel much better.

I liked seeing more of the Dreaming being rebuilt, including an appearance by Merv Pumpkinhead, played by Mark Hamill of all people! I can imagine that there are plenty of dream denizens that think of Lucienne as the real head of the Dreaming. While Dream is off brooding she's the person actually keeping the lights on. 

I loved this episode, but I admit to being disappointed so far with Despair and Desire. To be fair to the show, they were probably the hardest members of the Endless to adapt, being the least human in appearance, but I feel like they could have done more. Especially Despair, who looks more like a humanoid lump of mud than a person, but here she's just a normal looking overweight woman with greasy hair, I think they could have at least added some prosthetics or added more dirt and grime to her face, at least give her some runny makeup. Desire is better, but I always imagined Desire as more sensual than campy, but I understand that it would be hard to cast someone who can and does look like everyone's ideal attractive person. I will give them some more time though. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Black Knight]

20 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I feel wrong for laughing as much as I did over the whole "Collector" gathering that is clearly just a code for serial killers. 

The term derives from the John Fowles thriller titled "The Collector", which was then made into a film. Several real-life serial killers have claimed a connection to the novel and/or film.

It's very dark humor, so laugh away. I did!

[paramitch]

On 8/10/2022 at 11:24 PM, Zuleikha said:

Despair looks uglier in the graphic novels, but I don't think Despair looks like an overweight woman. Despair is the least humanlike of the Endless. In the graphic novels, I always associated Despair's frame with the sensation a human feels in the grips of Despair... that Despair is like an unshakable boulder holding onto us. 

I don't exactly blame Donna Preston for not wanting to go around nearly naked in a diaper, but I think they needed to keep more of the inhumanity from the graphic novels with a prosthetic on her lower face to give her Despair's jutting jaw/fanged teeth and used heavier makeup to give her the deeply sunken eyes. They also could have bundled her up in torn, dirty clothes instead of the very normie looking jeans and a sweater and made her hair greasy/stringy. She didn't have a lot of opportunity in the scene to establish Despair's character, so it would have been nice for styling to give her more of a look.

I'm generally okay with Desire's look, but I wish they changed it up more so that Desire sometimes had more of a masc look and sometimes had more of a femme look. I also think the promo pics without the earrings look better than this episode's look with the earrings. I think the earrings pushed the overall look too close to drag queen whereas the promo pics don't look that way at all. Mason Alexander Park does bear an extraordinary resemblance to the typical graphic novel renditions of Desire, though.

I would have preferred Despair be a different being and body type entirely, although I do agree that making them more creature-like could have been interesting.

I sort of feel lucky for not being a reader of the book, because I don't have any preexisting images of what the characters looked like (which I'm sure is a powerful thing since it was a graphic novel).

And yeah, Desire did not work for me at all. I do agree that a Desire who could have subtly morphed their aspect to be what OTHERS desire would have been perfect (this is what the Dragon Age games do with the Desire demons in the game -- the demon becomes whoever you desire most in life).

15 hours ago, Anela said:

I also like the actress who played Lucifer, but Tom Ellis is that character, for me.  They said he’s too lovable, but he could be menacing when the show called for it.  
Stephen Fry! I love him.  

Yeah, while I fricking worship Gwendoline Christie, I was underwhelmed with her Lucifer. Just so stodgy and not playful enough. I guess it would have disrupted the space-time continuum for it to be Tom Ellis, but OMG I would've loved that so much.

I was thrilled to see Stephen Fry, and it was lovely to see him here exercising his superpowers, which are charm, intelligence, and visible empathy.

10 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

It seems my initial doubts about Boyd Holbrook are going away: I'm actually starting to dig The Corinthian as a potential big baddie.  He's got the right balance of natural charm but there is always something sinister behind those smiles.

I feel wrong for laughing as much as I did over the whole "Collector" gathering that is clearly just a code for serial killers.  Yeah, a serial killer convention probably isn't that far-fetched: especially on this show.

Still not sure what Desire (and now Despair too)'s motivation is yet to take out their sibling. 

Boyd Holbrook is fantastic here. I perk up everytime he's onscreen. (Not like that! Well, okay, a LITTLE bit like that...)

I like the use of the collectors/serial killers as emblems of the worst aspects of humankind. I wish they'd included mass shooters, too. Ugh.

Desire and Despair's visible lack of any understandable motivation to take down Dream makes them really seem petty and boring to me. It's definitely a weak spot here. They just come across as Mean Beings.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 8/13/2022 at 5:23 AM, paramitch said:

Desire and Despair's visible lack of any understandable motivation to take down Dream makes them really seem petty and boring to me. It's definitely a weak spot here. They just come across as Mean Beings.

Well, Desire and Despair are kind of Mean Beings, almost by definition.

It makes sense to me when you mix sibling dynamics and the general Sandman mythology that the personification of Dream would cause friction for the personifications of Desire and Despair. Dreams are ways that people process the things they desire and despair about, and it would be easy for resentments to build up over millennia over near-infinite interactions between them and people (and other entities). 

[paramitch]

On 8/14/2022 at 6:54 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Well, Desire and Despair are kind of Mean Beings, almost by definition.

It makes sense to me when you mix sibling dynamics and the general Sandman mythology that the personification of Dream would cause friction for the personifications of Desire and Despair. Dreams are ways that people process the things they desire and despair about, and it would be easy for resentments to build up over millennia over near-infinite interactions between them and people (and other entities). 

I get that, but I don't agree.

First off, I just think it trivializes those incredibly deep and complex emotions. I do agree with you that I'd love to see their "meanness," their "pettiness" incorporated from the pain at their cores. How a momentary desire can derail a faithful marriage. Devastate someone's image of themselves. Leave them thirsting and hating when the person doesn't return that desire. Etc.

But the show didn't do that. The one brief Despair/Desire scene revealed no subtlety or complexity. It looked like a Bryan Fuller interpretation of "Mean Girls."

I mean, my favorite videogame series, Dragon Age, explores Desire with more depth and nuance than "Sandman" (the demons of the Dragon Age world manifest as sins, and "Desire" demons are whoever you secretly most desire, etc.).

Meanwhile, what we ended up here with are silly hasty tropes about Desire and Despair that the show casts utterly WITH type, no subtlety, and doesn't bother exploring them at all. I just think it's such a missed opportunity, especially since the entire season/miniseries was to demonstrate some deeper, virulent emotion. That whoever was afflicting Dream was doing so with great reason, thought, and anger and jealousy and also love and grief.

But none of that. We just get a bitchy conversation with Despair & Desire, than a later, bitchier conversation between Dream & Desire, and that's it. I mean, some of the NIGHTMARES had far more complexity. I just find it weird and unsatisfying and really frustrating.

I loved the show, but Desire did not work for me at all. Such a waste.

[QuantumMechanic]

22 hours ago, paramitch said:

I get that, but I don't agree.

First off, I just think it trivializes those incredibly deep and complex emotions. I do agree with you that I'd love to see their "meanness," their "pettiness" incorporated from the pain at their cores. How a momentary desire can derail a faithful marriage. Devastate someone's image of themselves. Leave them thirsting and hating when the person doesn't return that desire. Etc.

But the show didn't do that. The one brief Despair/Desire scene revealed no subtlety or complexity. It looked like a Bryan Fuller interpretation of "Mean Girls."

I mean, my favorite videogame series, Dragon Age, explores Desire with more depth and nuance than "Sandman" (the demons of the Dragon Age world manifest as sins, and "Desire" demons are whoever you secretly most desire, etc.).

Meanwhile, what we ended up here with are silly hasty tropes about Desire and Despair that the show casts utterly WITH type, no subtlety, and doesn't bother exploring them at all. I just think it's such a missed opportunity, especially since the entire season/miniseries was to demonstrate some deeper, virulent emotion. That whoever was afflicting Dream was doing so with great reason, thought, and anger and jealousy and also love and grief.

But none of that. We just get a bitchy conversation with Despair & Desire, than a later, bitchier conversation between Dream & Desire, and that's it. I mean, some of the NIGHTMARES had far more complexity. I just find it weird and unsatisfying and really frustrating.

I loved the show, but Desire did not work for me at all. Such a waste.

The thing is, the writers don't have a free hand.  They are, as we all know, adapting an existing work.  The stuff adapted by this season represents (eyeballing shelf inches) less than 20% of the entire work.  The stuff adapted by this season covered somewhat over 200 pages of the original work.  And (I just checked) in those 200+ pages Despair appeared in only five and Desire in only nine (five of those with Despair) and what you saw on the show was basically all that was said on those pages, i.e. not very much.  So unless they're going to make up a bunch of things from whole cloth or drastically change or reorder plotlines & stories there wasn't anything they could do along those lines this season.

The comic, IMHO, was very much a slow burn with lots of different stories and plotlines that over the long haul advance various overall themes and character development.  It will be interesting to see how (or even if) that comes over into TV.

Edited August 19, 2022 by QuantumMechanic
because 2 out of 10 is 20%, not 10%

[paramitch]

18 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

The thing is, the writers don't have a free hand.  They are, as we all know, adapting an existing work.  The stuff adapted by this season represents (eyeballing shelf inches) less than 10% of the entire work.  The stuff adapted by this season covered somewhat over 200 pages of the original work.  And (I just checked) in those 200+ pages Despair appeared in only five and Desire in only nine (five of those with Despair) and what you saw on the show was basically all that was said on those pages, i.e. not very much.  So unless they're going to make up a bunch of things from whole cloth or drastically change or reorder plotlines & stories there wasn't anything they could do along those lines this season.

The comic, IMHO, was very much a slow burn with lots of different stories and plotlines that over the long haul advance various overall themes and character development.  It will be interesting to see how (or even if) that comes over into TV.

Thanks, that's certainly a fair assessment, and not something I would know as a non-book-reader.

I guess at this point I'd say that I think Gaiman's portrait of Desire and Despair as villains is unsatisfying and shallow for me. But he's always been very hit or miss for me -- I think he's brilliant, but frequently uneven on characterization.

[bmoore4026]

"Dream still behaves like his realm is superior to ours.  It's time that he learned that dreams are merely echos of desire and despair."  OK, I'm half on board with that Desire said.  What we want and how we feel, especially the bad feelings, can affect how we dream.  And by that, I mean what happens when we sleep.  When someone says "What are your dreams", they aren't talking about the abstract. hard to decipher symbols and scenarios dancing in our heads while we sleep.  What they're asking, without knowing, is "What do you desire out of life?  What do desire to be in this life?"  In that way, Desire has an edge over Dream.

But the running theme of the season has been "hope" and how Dream is learning and changing because of it.  You can work your butt off try to get what you desire, but become overwhelmed, or come up short, or burn out, or become depressed and disillusioned, or give up on that "dream".  Yet, for a lot of people, it's hope that keeps us going.  It even inspires us to strive no matter the odds or lower our standards a bit to find something else you can be good at.  For this, Dream has the edge over Desire and Despair.

Now for something shallow: I'm not used to Lyta Hall having brunette hair.  But I'm guessing they made her a brunette to get the DC Superhero people off their backs, which is ironic because I can see the actress playing Wonder Woman.

When Lucienne brings Morpheus the list of dreams that returned, she says there are 11,062.  I'd love to see that list, but I'm sure the answer I'll get is "just check TVtropes.  They've got all the archetype characters." 

Rose's meeting with Unity got me in the feels.

OK, who else thinks Boyd Holbrook needs an Emmy nom?  Ditto for Mason Alexander Park.

Matthew flying through the Sistine Chapel looking ceiling and into the waking world was impressive.

"Everything's coming up roses".  Pretty on the nose foreshadowing.  And how has Stephen Fry not been mass produced as plushies yet?

Edited August 24, 2022 by bmoore4026

[paramitch]

On 8/19/2022 at 7:22 PM, bmoore4026 said:

"Dream still behaves like his realm is superior to ours.  It's time that he learned that dreams are merely echos of desire and despair."  OK, I'm half on board with that Desire said.  What we want and how we feel, especially the bad feelings, can affect how we dream.  And by that, I mean what happens when we sleep.  When someone says "What are your dreams", they aren't talking about the abstract. hard to decipher symbols and scenarios dancing in our heads while we sleep.  What they're asking, without knowing, is "What do you desire out of life?  What do desire to be in this life?"  In that way, Desire has an edge over Dream.

OK, who else thinks Boyd Holbrook needs an Emmy nom?  Ditto for Mason Alexander Park.

Matthew flying through the Sistine Chapel looking ceiling and into the waking world was impressive.

"Everything's coming up roses".  Pretty on the nose foreshadowing.  And how has Stephen Fry not been mass produced as plushies yet?

Snipped for response -- 

1. Great point on the fact that Dream could be considered a pale facsimile of what Desire and Despair, etc., offer waking and so it offends them. The text and story don't really give me that, however. And I still think it's too shallow of a motivation.
2. Definitely agree on Boyd Holbrook. He was mesmerizing and seriously crackled with charisma and spark in every scene, no matter who he played with.
3. Hard disagree on Park, since all they did was loll around and play up the camp in maybe 10 minutes of total screentime that gave us no real inner sense or insight beyond a general "Mean Girls" atmosphere. I'm sure they are capable of more, but the script (and story) did them no favors at all. Which is a shame, because I think Desire could be such a fascinating character. Instead, they literally played a stereotype here, and while I love the NB characterization (and casting) I dislike the ultra-campy styling, acting, and presentation, which felt very drag-performance to me.
4. And look, as far as my Desire critique -- I love drag, and have friends who do drag and also do tons of genderbent cosplay. But for me, drag is seriously not about desire at all, but about presentation and empowerment, at a deliberate safe distance. I guess for me drag might be presented as an echo of desire -- as a facet of the visual -- but I still think the primary aspect of drag is more of performer empowerment (almost as art) than as eliciting desire or lust. It is presented at a distance, emphasized as "untouchable" versus down and dirty desire and lust, which are "come and get me." So there is for me a deliberate element of untouchability to drag for me -- thoughts, anyone? am I being too narrow here?
5. I also second your wish for Stephen Fry plushies in the universe.

[QuantumMechanic]

9 hours ago, paramitch said:

Hard disagree on Park, since all they did was loll around and play up the camp in maybe 10 minutes of total screentime that gave us no real inner sense or insight beyond a general "Mean Girls" atmosphere. I'm sure they are capable of more, but the script (and story) did them no favors at all. Which is a shame, because I think Desire could be such a fascinating character. Instead, they literally played a stereotype here, and while I love the NB characterization (and casting) I dislike the ultra-campy styling, acting, and presentation, which felt very drag-performance to me.

An interesting thing is that the campy perhaps drag-esque performance was a choice made by the TV show production, since at least in the comics that this season adapts that is not how Desire comes across at all.  Admittedly, Desire appears in only 9 pages out of over 200 (separate 5 page and 4 page appearances).  But in the first appearance they are in a smart suit smoking a cigarette.  And in the second appearance they are wearing cat ears, a tail, and a simple black leotard.  In both cases they are not wearing any jewelry and (as was an intentional choice) their face looks like a Patrick Nagel painting.  (Think the album cover of Duran Duran's Rio).

[Wonderlad71]

On 8/20/2022 at 4:22 AM, bmoore4026 said:

Now for something shallow: I'm not used to Lyta Hall have brunette hair.  But I'm guessing they made her a brunette to get the DC Superhero people off their backs, which is ironic because I can see the actress playing Wonder Woman.

Yeah lol one of the most platinum blonde characters ever but the actress is really lovely. And as someone up top mentioned could easily be related to Gal Gadot which is quite ironic as they are actively divorcing this TV adaptation from the DCU origins of these characters.

[JustHereForFood]

I am probably focusing on it too much, but I am surprised they went with the obviously-a-rape origin for Unity's pregnancy. With how much sexual assault there was in the comics (and in Vertigo in general), I guess some of it was unavoidable even in today's climate, but considering they left it out of episode 5, I wondered  how much of it they would keep.

[Zuleikha]

On 8/21/2022 at 11:35 AM, QuantumMechanic said:

An interesting thing is that the campy perhaps drag-esque performance was a choice made by the TV show production, since at least in the comics that this season adapts that is not how Desire comes across at all. 

Mason Alexander Park's physical performance and line deliveries were pretty much exactly how I pictured live-action Desire. I think trying for a more androgynous bothness to Desire's look is a reasonable interpretation given that a human actor can't actually shapeshift between sexes. I think the styling just missed the boat a bit--really, it's just the freaking earrings. I thought the promo photos nailed the look, and Park's styling was basically the same... except for the earrings. 

I think the main issue was that we lost the exposition panels that introduced Desire in the panels. Desire is a lot. Desire is supposed to be a lot. But in the comics, we have context to Desire before we meet them.

[Wonderlad71]

6 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I am probably focusing on it too much, but I am surprised they went with the obviously-a-rape origin for Unity's pregnancy. With how much sexual assault there was in the comics (and in Vertigo in general), I guess some of it was unavoidable even in today's climate, but considering they left it out of episode 5, I wondered  how much of it they would keep.

I just assumed that she met a partner in her dreams and fell pregnant - and it manifested in her physical body - but not sure if I was following correctly.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Wonderlad71 said:

I just assumed that she met a partner in her dreams and fell pregnant - and it manifested in her physical body - but not sure if I was following correctly.

In a future episode, Desire admits to fathering the child.  Unity talks glowingly about her golden-eyed man.

It is not as clear on TV - or at least it wasn't to me -- that Desire has golden eyes.

In the comic, they had Unity not have any awareness that Desire fathered a baby with her initially.

The show's version is less rapey but it is still rape.

[Which Tyler]

I think the show's problem is that they also showed Lyta getting physically pregnant from her dead husband after a sexy dream.

This has led to confusion where there shouldn't really be any.

Unity got pregnant whilst asleep - she was impregnated in the physical world, not the dream world; so it's rape by definition; but the confusion is understandable.

[SevenStars]

9 hours ago, Wonderlad71 said:

I just assumed that she met a partner in her dreams and fell pregnant - and it manifested in her physical body - but not sure if I was following correctly.

Spoiler

This is what happened. Desire was the partner. Technically, Rose is a descent of Desire. She has Desire's blood which is why Desire was trying to get Dream to kill her. 

Putting this in spoiler tag because it is explain in later episodes. 

[Zuleikha]

7 hours ago, Which Tyler said:

Unity got pregnant whilst asleep - she was impregnated in the physical world, not the dream world; so it's rape by definition; but the confusion is understandable.

I don't think it's so clear that Unity was impregnated in the physical world. We know the pregnancy manifested in the physical world, but so did Lyta's. Desire fathered the baby, and Desire is an Endless. Desire is not bound to anything resembling human rules. 

I'm already starting to forget the details, but I thought Unity spoke fondly and lovingly of her golden-eyed man. I think there's a philosophical question of can a human ever not desire Desire and thus can a human ever truly consent to Desire, but I don't think Unity was raped in the sense of not consenting. My personal philosophical interpretation is that humans will always consent to Desire because Desire will always be exactly who/what we want, but our consent is still honestly given.

[DoctorAtomic]

That theory makes more sense in terms of Rose being the vortex. 

[SevenStars]

7 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't think it's so clear that Unity was impregnated in the physical world. We know the pregnancy manifested in the physical world, but so did Lyta's. Desire fathered the baby, and Desire is an Endless. Desire is not bound to anything resembling human rules. 

I'm already starting to forget the details, but I thought Unity spoke fondly and lovingly of her golden-eyed man. I think there's a philosophical question of can a human ever not desire Desire and thus can a human ever truly consent to Desire, but I don't think Unity was raped in the sense of not consenting. My personal philosophical interpretation is that humans will always consent to Desire because Desire will always be exactly who/what we want, but our consent is still honestly given.

Unity did speak lovingly about her golden eye "man". So base on her telling, it seems like they had a loving relationship in her dream. 

[Ottis]

After last week’s excellent episode, this was a clinker. Uninteresting and creepy, with cutesy oddness. I’m sure finding the brother matters somehow, but it isn’t nearly as engrossing as the approach to life, and death. 

Edited August 26, 2022 by Ottis