S02.E09: Painted from Memory

[SimoneS]

 

Kenya’s earth-shattering return continues sending shock waves through Defiance as Stahma tries to reconcile Kenya’s reappearance, while Doc Yewll works to keep her own dark secret hidden.

[wanderingstar]

Neat twist with the fake Kenya. I feel bad for Amanda. She thought she had her sister back, but now she has to face that Kenya is really gone. 

 

And I can't believe Pottinger went to such lengths just to get with Amanda. 

 

I wasn't paying close attention: where did Datak & Co. drop off Doc Yewll?

[Chaos Theory]

Well at least we got the answer to the Kenya question and it was pretty much what thought it was all along. (I got the basics right (the emo chip, Pottinger/Yewell) but the terminology wrong  (I kept calling NotKenya a clone - like the American Astronaut in season 1)   Of course Stahma killed Kenya.  I always thought she did.  I did enjoy her reaction to seeing Kenya the ghost of the woman she loved and just happened to have murdered.  The whole scene with her and Datak was great as well when she realized that he never expected her to kill Kenya just get rid of her.   I actually do think Stahma did love Kenya.  I just think it didn’t matter at the time.  Its an interesting question on would she make the same decision now?

 

As for the scenes with Amanda.  Amanda Rosewater is one of my favorite characters on the show so Amanda heavy episodes are always favorites with me and I noticed early on that Kenya’s memories were specific to Amanda.  I always thought that Kenya’s return had something to do with Pottinger and his quest to get in Amanda’s pants.   On a side note.  He does  know she is a night porter right.  He could just pay to get in her pants; like a normal pervert.....but noooo he has to be an extra perverty pervertt.

 

The Yewell stuff was nice to.  I like that she is no longer relegated to comic relief.  It looks like they are giving her more of a story but I am not quite sure how it fits into the main plot I am just enjoying it. 

 

Oh and a few final thoughts:

 

* Yewell to Datak "You're my only friend."  Me to Yewell "Stop experimenting on people and you may make more friends."

 

* Amanda really does need a wife.  I mean really the men in Defiance just aren’t doing it for her.  Maybe she should try the women.  Just not Stahma.....well Maybe Stahma.  Yeah please Stahma. 

 

* The only way this season could go worse for Amanda is if she actually does end up in Pottinger's bed

 

* Well my Kenya/Amanda fantasies are a lot less problematic now/

 

* I would hate to be Stahma, Pottinger, or Yewell when Amanda finally figures out what they have all been up to this last year.  I can hear the Terminator theme in the background as she shoots up the town.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[SimoneS]

I thought this was an excellent episode. The reveal that Quentin was FauxKenya's kidnapper shocked the hell out of me. I never saw it coming. Not often that a show surprises me.

Poor Amanda. I knew that she was in for heartbreak. I never had any doubt that Stahma had murdered Kenya. Amanda so desperately wanted to believe in FauxKenya. I hope that Amanda does not fall back into her drug addiction. I think that Stahma warning Amanda about FauxKenya will eventually lead her to figure out that Stahma murdered Kenya and it will get real then.

Yewll and Pottinger, what a pair. I was not surprised that Pottinger was behind FauxKenya. His obsession with Amanda has no limits. I really hope that she does not fall into bed with him because that will make it worse when the truth about him comes out.

I really like the ongoing theme that Yewll and Nolan see other very clearly. He recognizes that she is deceitful and untrustworthy and she knows that he is far more ruthless than people realize. She was right when she told Pottinger that Nolan would kill them both if he found out that they were behind FauxKenya. Now she is hiding from both Pottinger and Nolan. At least, Datak and Rafe know the truth or at least I think that they do so they can warn Amanda and Nolan about Pottinger.

I would not want to be "thing" infecting Irisa when Nolan finds out what is going on. He will be on the warpath.

On a side note. He does know she is a night porter right. He could just pay to get in her pants; like a normal pervert.....but noooo he has to be an extra perverty pervertt

Amanda is a not a prostitute. She just runs the Need Want. It is why Pottinger is going to extra lengths to worm his way into her life.

Edited August 15, 2014 by SimoneS

[Cardie]

I can hear the Terminator theme in the background as she shoots up the town.

You'll really be hearing the Terminator theme when

Linda Hamilton shows up soon as crazy Pilar, Rafe's wife.

[thuganomics85]

I have to admit I was confused by the end: I couldn't place who it was they revealed to be the masked guy, that kidnapped "Kenya." Was that Rafe's son, who just returned?

 

Well, after last week's episode, this was an improvement, since it ends up not being the real Kenya, but an Indogene, cooked up by Pottinger and Doc Yewll.  I figured that was where it was heading, but all the reveals were pretty good.  But, I actually didn't figure out that "She only remembered stuff Amanda knew" bit, so credit to Nolan for beating me to that one.  But, yeah, that was all kinds of fucked up.  Pottinger really is just a creep, if all of this was just another attempt to get in Amanda's pants.  And, the scene of Yewll convincing "Kenya" to take the cure was another reminder that underneath the snark, she's is not a nice person.  But, judging from the ending, a person who keeps on surviving.  Oh, Datak and Yewll.  I guess the crazies have to stick together!

 

Damn, that scene of Amanda chewing Stahma's head off was great.  That was probably the most scared Stahma ever looked.  Julie Benz brought it this time.  If she ever finds out what really happened to Kenya, it will be even worse for Stahma.  

 

I'm guessing though, that "Kenya" is going to try and find that doctor Yewll talked about that might have a way for her to survive, so I wouldn't be surprised if she returns.  I wish he would have been kind of enough to tell Amanda that Pottinger was involved.  It sounds like she didn't, and Pottinger is just going to blame it all on Yewll.  But, I am bummed that we won't be getting any "Kenya"/Berlin, because I totally was feeling some vibes between them.

 

Never get tired of Datak and Stahma bickering.  Oh, and Stahma?  Maybe you shouldn't bring the fancy coat with you, when your digging up graves.  Just saying.

 

Not much of Irisa's stuff this time, so I guess we'll revisit that next week.

 

I have a feeling there was a reason for that scene between Stahma and Deidre.  Stahma didn't look... happy, about Alak's involvement with her.

 

So, it's two episodes next week?  Not sure what to think of that; I'm glad for more Defiance, but I hope this isn't some kind of burn-off, and the show is in trouble.  With SyFy, it's hard to tell.

[BungalowSummer]

Wow! This show continues to deliver.

I liked Kenya and Amanda better in this episode than ever before. And the suspense of Yewll's attempted mind-wipe was very believable.

Pottinger is one sick mofo. However, I'm not so sure that getting into Amanda's panties is the only reason for what he's doing. If it is, that kind of obsession lends credence to the theory that he was Amanda's rapist back in NY.

I don't quite understand Quentin McCawley's role in this. The Indogene Amanda impersonator was being guarded by E-Rep special forces who were shot, execution style by Quentin's henchmen. Then they tried to use her to get Mahsuvus, the VC spy, released by Amanda. So Quentin is now working for the VC?

I don't see how both Amanda and Stahma survive the coming showdown. I really don't want to see Stahma dead or in prison. Will she be able to frame someone else and beat the rap? Or will the murder never come to light? Even so, it's still something that Datak has to hold over Stahma, and now he knows where the body is buried.

[ottoDbusdriver]

Yummmmmm ... I think I'll have a heaping helping of some fresh pow.  There was sign with a butcher's diagram labelled 'Fresh Pow' in the market area, and the diagram appeared to be a hybrid of a cow and a pig.  Best combo of meat animals since slig from the Dune series of novels (a cross between a giant slug and a pig).

 

I loved the music at the start of the episode -- a version of "What's Up" by 4 Non Blondes -- building slowly in the background and then the lyrics become more pronounced as Stahma starts to freak out when she sees Kenya alive and kicking (I guessed they couldn't get the rights to the appropriate Simple Minds song).

 

ETA: There is an instrumental version (sounds like a woodwind and a guitar) of the same song as Kenya ventures out into the city by herself.

 

ETA2: Corrected the song title -- I've always called it "What's Going On", but that's only in the lyrics and not the song's title.

Edited August 15, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver

[sjohnson]

Quentin's references to the VC's mistreatment of his mother Pilar tell us I think that he's working for the VC because they have her. If the character comes to Defiance, I suppose it was to get her release. 

 

Nolan should be frantic trying to think of a way to cope with irisa's Irzu problem. Being the man he is though, naturally it's more important to sneer at Tommy or screw with Kenya. 

 

I'm quite sure now that Pottinger is about nothing more significant than raping Amanda Rosewater which pretty much erases my interest in the character. I can't believe his plan was anything but BS, even if Julie Benz recites lines about moving on.

 

Also, both Pottinger and Yewll knew perfectly well the indogene didn't have any particular interest in confessing all. That's why it's perfectly believable that the fake just blew town. Unfortunately for the plot, there was no reason for Pottinger or Yewll to carry on in the way they did. If they'd just secretly explained to the indogene and intimidated her/bought her off?  But no, Yewll has to fail at an absurd plan that would have been caught if she had "succeeded," then wait until an hysterical copy was pointing a gun. Then Pottinger has to go shooting at indogenes, so that when Yewll naturally runs off, Pottinger has to admit it was Yewll who did the ego tap. Buddy, claiming its your fault for letting out may be preemptive, but it doesn't take a genius to wonder if that's why you let her out. And frankly, if Nolan is so scary, there are sneaky ways to kill. 

 

This is nonsense I think and unbelievable and therefore dull. Except that Nolan is completely believable as a man who would beat up a woman.

 

Stahma's distress is unbelievable..Anybody who can personally poison three women and frame a husband can do anything, so she can't have a real problem.

 

I looked at the setting backstory on the wikipedia. I had thought the defiance at Defiance was a key step in ending the Pale Wars, but it was Arkfall which did that. I guess it's appropriate that the name of the series celebrates an unimportant event.

[MDKNIGHT]

I called it in the spec thread that Pottinger stole Amanda's memories to make a good fake Kenya.

 

I thought Jaimie Murray did a bang up job showing the complex emotions especially when she found out Datak might have been satisfied with a neutralized not killed Kenya and so she didn't need to murder her and again when she tells Amanda Kenya is dead.  There was pain in her eyes.  And she was also very believeable when she looked scared upon first seeing Kenya.  I've always liked Jaimie Murray but this was particularly good acting.

 

While of course it doesn't make up for what she did, I'm glad it at least hurt Stahma a little that Kenya is dead.  It isn't much but at least she is suffering a bit.  Did she put a grave marker on Kenya's grave?  Wouldn't that be dangerous? 

 

LOVED the two arrangements of "What's Up" This show does a really good job with music.  In the first version that ends when Stahma is doing her freak out...is the beginning in English or in a Votan language?  They do a lot of songs in  a mixture which makes sense given the universe they live in. 

 

  I want Pottinger dead before he totally messes with Amanda's head. If they sleep together before she finds out he's a monster it will be too much.

[johntfs]

 

Stahma's distress is unbelievable..Anybody who can personally poison three women and frame a husband can do anything, so she can't have a real problem.

 

Stahma's distress is completely believable.  First, she found out someone she'd killed had "come back to life."  Then she learned that Datak would've been satisfied if she'd just gotten Kenya out of town somehow instead of killing her.  Finally she learned that no, Kenya, who she did love on some level, was actually really dead by her hand and she'd have to live with that still.  The women she poisoned were pawns.  She didn't care about them.  She cared about Kenya.

[GaT]

I knew there would be something wrong with Kenya, being an Indogene didn't occur to me, but I knew it had to be something. How desperate is Pottinger? He seriously stole Amanda's memories to create a fake sister just so he could get laid? Who does something like that? The guy is certifiable.

 

My stupid DVR didn't record the show for some reason, luckily I was able to record the repeat, but it cut out just when the mask went into the fire. From the other posts, it sounds like it's Rafe's son? I wouldn't recognize him, but wouldn't that mean he's working with Pottinger?

[MDKNIGHT]

it sounds like it's Rafe's son? I wouldn't recognize him, but wouldn't that mean he's working with Pottinger?

 

Yes it was Rafe's son.  No it doesn't mean he was working with Pottinger.  Pottinger with Yewell's help made fake Kenya.  He had E Rep elite squad members (the one with three headed eagle) guard her.  Rafe's son and others broke into the lab killed the guards and took Kenya.  What we don't know yet is why did he want Amanda to break out the Irath spy.  He may have had dealings with the Votanis Collective, either for political reasons or because of some deal. 

[GaT]

Ah, thanks, I missed the part where he took her.

[SimoneS]

Quentin likely has a deal with the VC where he does what they say in return for releasing his mother. He and his men probably went to the lab to rescue the VC spies who had been captured and tortured and destroy it when he stumbled across FauxKenya.

 

Also, both Pottinger and Yewll knew perfectly well the indogene didn't have any particular interest in confessing all. That's why it's perfectly believable that the fake just blew town. Unfortunately for the plot, there was no reason for Pottinger or Yewll to carry on in the way they did. If they'd just secretly explained to the indogene and intimidated her/bought her off?  But no, Yewll has to fail at an absurd plan that would have been caught if she had "succeeded," then wait until an hysterical copy was pointing a gun. Then Pottinger has to go shooting at indogenes, so that when Yewll naturally runs off, Pottinger has to admit it was Yewll who did the ego tap. Buddy, claiming its your fault for letting out may be preemptive, but it doesn't take a genius to wonder if that's why you let her out. And frankly, if Nolan is so scary, there are sneaky ways to kill. 

 

I don't see how Pottinger and Yewll could possibly be certain that FauxKenya would not deliberately or inadvertently expose them as her erratic memory flooded her. They were right to be worried.  If Nolan and Amanda had been there when she remembered seeing Yewll and Pottinger, FauxKenya very likely would have told them. Yewll and Pottinger certainly could not take the risk.

 

I do agree with you that Yewll's plan was definitely risky, but she probably had a plan to clean up the evidence and claim the memory loss was a side effect that she could not control. Nolan would not buy it, but there would not be much that he or a distraught Amanda do. If Pottinger had succeed in killing both FauxKenya and Yewll, he would be in the clear although Nolan would continue to be suspicious as hell. He is the only one who wondered out loud why Yewll was released in the first place.

 

One of major problems that I have with Defiance is that other than Nolan and Rafe, most of the characters have short term memories. Last week, I complained Amanda's sudden loyalty/affection for Pottinger. This week he returns and she smiles when he kisses her on cheek. It is ridiculous that she has so quickly forgotten or brushed aside his horrendous behavior and how set up those young men to be killed.   

 

thuganomics85, I am concerned that the two episodes next week might be a burn-off because the ratings this season have been lower.

Edited August 15, 2014 by SimoneS

[sjohnson]

Stahma's distress is completely believable.  First, she found out someone she'd killed had "come back to life."  Then she learned that Datak would've been satisfied if she'd just gotten Kenya out of town somehow instead of killing her.  Finally she learned that no, Kenya, who she did love on some level, was actually really dead by her hand and she'd have to live with that still.  The women she poisoned were pawns.  She didn't care about them.  She cared about Kenya.

Let me rephrase. I didn't believe Stahma could carry out the poisonings without magic powers. For me, the character has jumped the shark as they used to say. I can't help but feel she's nothing but a script contrivance, and I don't believe anything about her. Woman Is Teh Devil may be a popular trope but in my eyes the desperate pursuit of the coolness has irredeemably wrecked the character. I don't feel it any more, and feelings are not an act of will.

 

SimoneS the thing is that although worrying about what the erratic clone might say is prudent, nothing they did actually addressed that problem in a prudent way. If they wanted to go reckless they could have just done nothing. Nolan had already threatened Yewll about her care, the amnesia would have prompted him to deliver on his threats! In the event Pottinger shot her (or at her) yet the clone still had nothing to gain by naming Pottinger. That's why she didn't bother. If Pottinger had kept his head, even Yewll could have gotten away with it. After all, one of the reasonable options for the clone was to try to find a place by taking Kenya's, i.e., trying to carry out Pottinger's original plan! By the way the ambiguity about whether she could live longer as Kenya made no sense to me, even for fictional science, except to leave it open for Mia Kershner to return. 

 

Pottinger's only motive is to get Amanda which is good for making Amanda both an icon of lust and a damsel in distress. For a certain kind of writing that's character building for Amanda. But it makes Pottinger very boring as a person and it also makes him very boring as a protagonist because when it comes to cocksmanship, Nolan is going to win, and win big, and brag about it, like he did to Tommy. Further, the total stupidity of the plot means that I can't pretend that Pottinger poses any threat to anyone except by fiat of script. He's not making any choices and he doesn't even have a chance of winning his programmed goal. To me it seems like we've been informed Pottinger is a waste of time and space. All there is going to be is "boo, hiss" when we see Pottinger, then "yay" when we watch Nolan murder him. Pottinger has no agency in any form that I can see. 

Edited August 15, 2014 by sjohnson

[Chaos Theory]

Let me rephrase. I didn't believe Stahma could carry out the poisonings without magic powers. For me, the character has jumped the shark as they used to say. I can't help but feel she's nothing but a script contrivance, and I don't believe anything about her. Woman Is Teh Devil may be a popular trope but in my eyes the desperate pursuit of the coolness has irredeemably wrecked the character. I don't feel it any more, and feelings are not an act of will.

I felt every second of it like a freight train; from her first seeing Kenya, to her telling Amanda Kenya was dead, to the scene in the meadow with Datak and seeing Kenya's skull. I felt it all.

Edited August 15, 2014 by Chaos Theory

[Grammaeryn]

Pottinger's only motive is to get Amanda which is good for making Amanda both an icon of lust and a damsel in distress. For a certain kind of writing that's character building for Amanda. But it makes Pottinger very boring as a person and it also makes him very boring as a protagonist because when it comes to cocksmanship, Nolan is going to win, and win big, and brag about it, like he did to Tommy. Further, the total stupidity of the plot means that I can't pretend that Pottinger poses any threat to anyone except by fiat of script. He's not making any choices and he doesn't even have a chance of winning his programmed goal. To me it seems like we've been informed Pottinger is a waste of time and space. All there is going to be is "boo, hiss" when we see Pottinger, then "yay" when we watch Nolan murder him. Pottinger has no agency in any form that I can see.

This is so funny, I see turning Amanda into damsel in distress as a way to strip her agency. I dunno becoming an unwitting victim to a pervert is not character building in my book. It's tired storytelling.

[sjohnson]

The script had Amanda say to "Kenya" that she was damned good at being the boss. I happen to agree that being a damsel in distress doesn't have much agency but that's a ploy in the mating dance of the stars (which is often thought to be endlessly fascinating, after all.) Damned good bosses have agency up the wazoo. You and I may not think it's not good character building, but many seem to like it. 

 

On the general subject of tired storytelling, was there any reason to think a partially terraformed Earth with multiple aliens would somehow be a Western? I sometimes forget the show's premise is that the old is better. I suppose they think of it as more grounded or perhaps they think it's character-driven? At any rate, maybe I'm hoping for more than the show itself ever hoped for?

[Chaos Theory]

Since when has Amanda ever been a damsel in distress? Last episode she spent most of it trying to rescue Kenya herself; Nolan's only part was to stop her from a fools mission and to give her a Plan B. There was the episode before that and her emo chip psychotic break which actually went a long way to prove what a good match the two of them are. They are the Bam Bam i want sex now type. While Pottinger is all about wooing Amanda's heart through trickery and manipulation; Nolan just smiles offers her a drink and asks if she wants to go to his place or hers.

Amanda is not a damsel in distress. when she finds out about Pottinger she is just as likely to shoot him as Nolan is.

[nitrofishblue]

I think that having two episodes next week is strictly a programming decision. This week they showed two episodes of Spartacus. This is to fill the slot that Dominion had until its season finale last week. Seems they didn't film enough episodes of Dominion.

[SimoneS]

Apparently, Syfy cut the finale of Dominion by 30 minutes and stuck the remaining 30 minutes to the episode that was supposed to air before it. This edited single episode was then aired as the finale. Not good news for Dominion either.

 

Chaos Theory, I don't see Amanda as a damsel in distress either, never have. Yes, this season she is going through an emotional rough patch and is being subjected to Pottinger's schemes, but she pulled herself out of her drug addiction and has finally accepted that her sister is dead.

 

I really like what the writers have done with Amanda and Nolan this season. Instead of writing this big romance, they are shown are good friends who are sometimes lovers. This makes their bond much stronger. 

 

sjohnson, Pottinger has tons of agency. He is the one manipulating Amanda. I don't find him boring at all. He is very clever and entertaining albeit revolting to watch. Of course, he is not going to win. He is the villain and while they might have temporary victories, they never win in these kinds of show. I don't know why you are so sure that he is going to lose to Nolan. Amanda is equally likely to be the one who kills him.  

Edited August 15, 2014 by SimoneS

[sjohnson]

As to Amanda's adreeno addiction, wasn't the turning point when Nolan talked to her? Maybe not. Although I can't credit Amanda's efforts to pay the ransom as real agenty, nor her final acceptance of Kenya's death when an impostor reveals herself, as I said, the script has announced she's a damned good boss. As a reminder, so that when they feel the character has suffered enough she'll display all that agency she has. Maybe she'll beat up Stahma for telling the truth again? Also, I forgot that they'll probably turn Pottinger in to the New York rapist, in which case the big satisfying payoff indeed is supposed to be Amanda offing Pottinger. My bad.

 

But I can't agree Pottinger has any agency. All he's done basically is helplessly follow his obsession with Amanda. Mercado has trashed his career, although that seems to have disappeared. He's nothing but a perv, period. Yewll said so. 

 

PS Forgot to say my idea of agency doesn't include taking orders from a kidnapper to try to rescue a terrorist in an ongoing mass murder plot. Sorry, I don't think it matters how hands on or bad ass you are in hitting men when you're doing something like that.

Edited August 16, 2014 by sjohnson

[Grammaeryn]

Damsel: ego chip problem saved by Nolan, adreeno addiction set straight by Nolan, aggressive customer brawl interrupted by Nolan. I feel like Stahma being built into a bad ass has kinda sapped the story lines for the other women on the show. Or maybe I'm disliking the non-mayor Amanda? She feels diminished this season...

[Chaos Theory]

Damsel: ego chip problem saved by Nolan,

 

 

I give you that one but someone had to save her and I still don't get the damsel angle on that.  She was losing her mind and the ego chip was killing her.  What alternative would you have liked?  

 

 

adreeno addiction set straight by Nolan,

 

Actually no.  Adreeno addiction ended by Amanda herself after Nolan inspired Hallucinations.  Not the same thing.  As a matter of fact her image of Nolan did nothing more then freak her out.  Amanda cured herself of the Adreeno.  

 

 

Aggressive customer brawl interrupted by Nolan.

 

Which is his job as Lawman.  He broke up a brawl in what amounts to a bar.  Would you have said any different if it was between two dudes?  Amanda was holding her own in the fight...hell she was winning.  She'd have killed the guy if he didn't step in.  No distress there.  

 

I feel like Stahma being built into a bad ass has kinda sapped the story lines for the other women on the show. Or maybe I'm disliking the non-mayor Amanda?  

 

Maybe you just like villains.  

[maczero]

I gotta say I'm disappointed in Pottinger's involvement in Kenya's resurrection.  It just seemed way too convoluted as part of his scheme to get Amanda.  There were too many ways that it could backfire.  Not to mention the considerable amount of resources involved (men, equipment, prisoner).  I'm sure there's gotta be some sort of Votan mind control that would make Amanda fall in love with him.

 

Other stuff: 

 

Love where the Tarrs are in their relationship.  They're bickering while looking for the real Kenya sounded like your average married couple.

 

Nolan/Tommy confrontation.  Interesting that Nolan was the one to bring up that he's been hooking up with Berlin.  Not surprising since Nolan can be a dick.  It's just that Tommy doesn't seem to be worth one-upmanship.  I mean I can see if this was Pottinger and Nolan wanted to brag that he's having sex with Amanda.  But Tommy has always been the beta to Nolan's alpha.

 

Nice little moment when Nolan approached Yewell and she jumped back.  Made me actually dislike Nolan (for a moment) since it's clear that he's not above using physical intimidation on a woman.

[shapeshifter]

Never get tired of Datak and Stahma bickering. Oh, and Stahma? Maybe you shouldn't bring the fancy coat with you, when your digging up graves. Just saying.

Both of her first 2 white outfits were gorgeous on her, but even more awesome when she wound up shoveling muck in the white on white and having a fit. I wasn't a Jaime Murray fan when she was on Warehouse 13 when so many adored her, but I am totally her fan girl on this show. She uses the makeup disguise as an opportunity to over-emote her facial expressions without it seeming over done.

I loved the music at the start of the episode -- a version of "What's Up" by 4 Non Blondes -- building slowly in the background and then the lyrics become more pronounced as Stahma starts to freak out when she sees Kenya alive and kicking...

ETA2: Corrected the song title -- I've always called it "What's Going On", but that's only in the lyrics and not the song's title.

I loved the opening music too, especially the way the lyrics fit with the action at the end of the scene. Yay for Bear McCreary.

Nice little moment when Nolan approached Yewell and she jumped back.

Trenna Keating never fails to make the most of her screen time. It can't all be good directing.

I also love the episode title.

I did find the Kenya plot a little contrived, but I figure either they'll just move on from it, or it will make more sense later, hopefully.

Edited August 16, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Grammaeryn]

Hey Chaos Theory, I am expressing my opinion. You can disagree but refuting me line by line is kinda ridiculous. It's one viewer's opinion mmmkay? I don't feel like playing whose opinion is more valid.

Edited August 16, 2014 by Grammaeryn

[BooksRule]

My stupid DVR didn't record the show for some reason, luckily I was able to record the repeat, but it cut out just when the mask went into the fire. From the other posts, it sounds like it's Rafe's son? I wouldn't recognize him, but wouldn't that mean he's working with Pottinger?

 

Mine didn't either, so I'm glad I checked and set it to get the repeat.  I had noticed that the future recordings on my DVR showed two episodes of 'Defiance' scheduled to record last night, both listed as 'new'.  It didn't record any 'Defiance' anywhere and I saw that 'Spartacus' was being aired.  I guess it got confused, but I'll be sure and check next week, since there are two scheduled to air.  It might goof up again (although since the previews specifically said that there would be two back-to-back (both new, right?) episodes next week, maybe it'll work okay.

 

It was Rafe's son at the end.  I'm glad he and Rafe had that little scene where Quentin reported on visiting his mom.  I had totally forgotten about that plot and had been wondering where he had gone.

Edited August 16, 2014 by BooksRule

[johntfs]

 

Let me rephrase. I didn't believe Stahma could carry out the poisonings without magic powers. For me, the character has jumped the shark as they used to say. I can't help but feel she's nothing but a script contrivance, and I don't believe anything about her. Woman Is Teh Devil may be a popular trope but in my eyes the desperate pursuit of the coolness has irredeemably wrecked the character. I don't feel it any more, and feelings are not an act of will.

 

What "magic powers" does Stahma need?  Put that situation in the context of your own life for a moment.  Are you (or were you ever) part of some regular social gathering of a small group (friends/co-workers/book club/etc.)?  In that group did anyone, including yourself, ever express an opinion that was dismissed or rejected by the others?  If so, did you ever for a moment think that the rejected person would murder the rest of you?  I'm guessing no.  We as viewers know how dangerous Stahma is and what she's capable of but the women in that knitting circle certainly didn't.

[GaT]

I gotta say I'm disappointed in Pottinger's involvement in Kenya's resurrection.  It just seemed way too convoluted as part of his scheme to get Amanda.  There were too many ways that it could backfire.  Not to mention the considerable amount of resources involved (men, equipment, prisoner).  I'm sure there's gotta be some sort of Votan mind control that would make Amanda fall in love with him.

 

 

 

Also, it's stupid, it's a stupid plot. All that was missing was to see the word "Acme" on all of Yewell's equipment.

 

 

 

Nice little moment when Nolan approached Yewell and she jumped back.  Made me actually dislike Nolan (for a moment) since it's clear that he's not above using physical intimidation on a woman.

In this case I don't have a problem with it. I know Yewell is a fan favorite, but she's done some pretty horrible things. I don't think her stint in jail was enough to pay for it. A little intimidation from Nolan is not out of place.

[MDKNIGHT]

After all, one of the reasonable options for the clone was to try to find a place by taking Kenya's, i.e., trying to carry out Pottinger's original plan!

 

Well not the whole plan...it seems that the plan was for the "clone" to die so that Amanda would be able to move on and Pottinger to swoop in.  The idea being that while she was still holding out hope for a reunion with Kenya, Amanda wouldn't seriously date.  It was wierd plan but I sort of get it. 

 

I liked how annoyed Datak was with both Kenya and Amanda.  It was like everything Stahma said during thier little excavation excursion made him jealous.  Stahma commenting on Kenya's skull and sniffing it,  Stahma worrying about Amanda's feelings etc.  It was funny yet added depth to the scene. 

[CletusMusashi]

I finally put my finger on why I didn't enjoy the Tarrs as much as I should have.

Their acting was superb. So was their dialogue. 

 

Problem: The whole schtick about Datak not wanting Kenya killed, only controlled? Total retcon.

Datak was homicidally furious at Stahma for her walk on the wild side. Remember? Right after she showed him that vajayjay trick that Kenya somehow must have demonstrated on her, instead of simply explaining it, despite all the confusing questions involved with that interpretation... now we're supposed to buy that he was honestly okay with having Kenya walking around, free to gossip as night porters tend to... just no. I don't accept it. Maybe, hopefully, best case scenerio, what we saw was newer, more cautious Datak retconning his own story, and Stahma pretending to believe him.

 

Because, let's face it, the writers simply do not do enough episodes a season to be allowed to change their characters history that dramatically without a few eyebrows going up.

Edited August 16, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[sjohnson]

What "magic powers" does Stahma need?  Put that situation in the context of your own life for a moment.  Are you (or were you ever) part of some regular social gathering of a small group (friends/co-workers/book club/etc.)?  In that group did anyone, including yourself, ever express an opinion that was dismissed or rejected by the others?  If so, did you ever for a moment think that the rejected person would murder the rest of you?  I'm guessing no.  We as viewers know how dangerous Stahma is and what she's capable of but the women in that knitting circle certainly didn't.Sinc

Since you ask...

No, it doesn't take magic powers to poison an unsuspecting church women's gathering.

 

The magic powers come in being sure that no one saw her going near, in or from the house; having proof she was somewhere else; being sure no one knew she had the poison; having proof that the husband had access to the poison; knowing that no one else had any motive for poisoning any one of the group; being sure that no one else was mistaken as going to or from the house; knowing there were no servants that could be suspected; making sure the husband wasn't able to falsely accuse someone else; knowing the husband wouldn't be believed if he correctly accused Stahma; making sure there was a witness that the husband was present; being sure that the husband couldn't by some chance have proof that he was somewhere else during the poisoning. The last one is particularly tricky since he actually was. 

 

Poisoning is not an easily wielded weapon. As near as I can tell, it's primary effectiveness is when it's not recognized as murder, commonly because the poisoner is in a position to discourage an autopsy or other investigation. 

 

Of course it's possible I suppose that no Castithan ever reality tests charges of murder. In that case, Stahma only needed the magic power to suddenly change the majority attitude to one of intense disapproval of the clergyman husband and neutrality or approval of her. Or perhaps simply the magic ability to make the majority temporarily stupid.

[jhlipton]

Why didn't the Indogene leave a note telling who was behind the plan.  "It" seemed pretty furious even after it found out it wasn't Kenya.

 

God, I would have loved to see Tommy knock Nolan back flat on his ass.  "OK, that's two, dumbass; care to try for three?"  Nolan the dickweed needs to be treated like a dickweed.

 

I have less of a problem with Nolan being agressive with Yewell -- she deserves it.  Tommy does not.  Gender has nother to do with it.

[MDKNIGHT]

The magic powers come in being sure that no one saw her going near, in or from the house; having proof she was somewhere else; being sure no one knew she had the poison; having proof that the husband had access to the poison;

 

etc.

She isn't magical.  She is mobbed up.  What she did was only a bit more extreme than what the mob gets away with.  She has the advantage that she is operating in a less sophisticated environment with less forensics. The major parts of her plan was pay people to lie about the clergyman, be scary enough that if anybody DID see you at the murder house they'd be too scared to testify, plant the poison at the clergyman's house.  It wasn't exactly Columbo investigating the murder.

 

CletusMulashi- When I initially heard Datak say he didn't need her dead I thought to myself the show is doing a retcon but then after a little thought I felt that Datak was lying that he was retconning his own actions because of some latent guilt. At the time he was enraged like when he was enraged by the E rep commander and for the same reason...his pride. The Erep guy insulted him and told him he was going to be a nothing.  Datak snapped and killed the guy.  Stahma sleeping with Kenya wounded his pride and he wanted blood. I'm sure he meant for Stahma to kill Kenya.  I think now he wants to convince himself he's more civilized than he actually is so he said he didn't really need her dead, but he did. 

 

Tangentially I thought it was interesting that Stahma kind of was attempting a retcon of her own. Although she said she feared Kenya regaining her memory and fingering her the way Jaimie Murray played those scenes it seemed like part of her was hoping that she HAD botched the murder because she regretted it. I think if she had been capable of thinking outside the Castithan tradition box THEN like she does now (stuff like realizing she could run the criminal empire herself ) that she wouldn't have killed Kenya.  She would have done what Datak said and knocked her out and shipped her somewhere.  But at the time she thought if she went against Datak head on he'd successfully kill her because that is how she'd been taught the Casti world worked.  Hey he'd probably have served her internal organs at dinner like in the sacred scrolls.

[BungalowSummer]

 

the way Jaimie Murray played those scenes it seemed like part of her was hoping that she HAD botched the murder because she regretted it. I think if she had been capable of thinking outside the Castithan tradition box THEN like she does now (stuff like realizing she could run the criminal empire herself ) that she wouldn't have killed Kenya.  She would have done what Datak said and knocked her out and shipped her somewhere.  But at the time she thought if she went against Datak head on he'd successfully kill her because that is how she'd been taught the Casti world worked.

 

I agree. I think she regretted it as soon as she did it and that being forced to murder Kenya was the first step in freeing herself from a mental slavery to Datak. Of all the humiliations and sacrifices her marriage to Datak demanded, sacrificing Kenya was the proverbial last straw. I don't question that Stahma felt forced to kill Kenya. She was utterly terrified in the voting booth after Datak's threat -- something like, "I'd gut you right here, but I need your vote." With Datak at Camp Reverie for 9 months, she learned she could function perfectly well without him. Her recent softening towards him, even if it's out of necessity, distresses me.

 

I loved the scene where Stahma stops Amanda in the market and tells her that SkinKenya isn't the real Kenya. Murray's changing expressions as she tries to warn Amanda who in return promises to hurt her were wonderful -- a mix of anxiety, sorrow, astonishment, fear, resignation and finally Stahma's patented obsequiousness. It was a great performance. Stahma recognized another woman who was every bit as ruthless as she was.

[sjohnson]

etc.

She isn't magical.  She is mobbed up.  What she did was only a bit more extreme than what the mob gets away with.  She has the advantage that she is operating in a less sophisticated environment with less forensics. The major parts of her plan was pay people to lie about the clergyman, be scary enough that if anybody DID see you at the murder house they'd be too scared to testify, plant the poison at the clergyman's house.  It wasn't exactly Columbo investigating the murder.

That kind of interpretation never occurred to me. If the Castithan community were so much under Stahma's thumb, then the clergyman's public denunciations don't matter. If he was an annoyance, the man could have been removed in a dark alley with the same witnesses paid off to tell a much simpler lie. But, if Stahma had so many people terrorized that the majority of the community were publicly voting to execute him, while other Votans and humans watched, then I don't see how the man could ever have been taken seriously. I suppose your version makes a kind of sense. It just means that Stahma killed those people more or less for nothing and we were showed it to see how awesome she is. I admit I didn't pick up on that at all. I thought she was taking drastic action against a real threat.

 

Of course, with that army of liars at her beck and call, I don't think she would have had anything to fear from Kenya's testimony. How can one damaged memory refute multiple witnesses?

Edited August 16, 2014 by sjohnson

[CletusMusashi]

A damaged memory of someone more trusted than Stahma by both the Lawkeeper and by a close advisor of the provincial mayor? Not even counting how many other powerful people in town felt close to Kenya? Not a good risk. One thing the Tarrs understand very well is that, legally, some people are more equal than others.

[Izeinwinter]

Going back to the murdered knitting circle - I figure that Stahma needed a story for the casti to tell themselves about why they were going against sacred authority. Seeming is being, remember. Siding with Stahma against a clergyman known to be incorruptible would have required the casti in defiance to give up their self-image. If he just vanishes, they would have to cast her down in retribution, even if that required mobilizing a riot and burning half the quarter down. But stitching him up? Well he looks guilty, so he is guilty! That doesnt cause so much as a ripple in the social order, and anyone who suspects what actually went down can turn a blind eye out of fear and still maintain the all-important appearances. 

[AlliMo]

I'm not particularly sympathetic towards Tommy. Far too often he comes across as a petulant child who cares more about his own advancement and status than about the actual responsibilities that come with being a lawkeeper. Nolan is an ass, but he's an ass who actually gives a crap about doing the right thing and who has some recognition of the actual consequences to people other than himself.

[shapeshifter]

I'm not particularly sympathetic towards Tommy. Far too often he comes across as a petulant child who cares more about his own advancement and status than about the actual responsibilities that come with being a lawkeeper. Nolan is an ass, but he's an ass who actually gives a crap about doing the right thing and who has some recognition of the actual consequences to people other than himself.

Yes. I think Nolan in part slept with Berlin to hurt Tommy the way Nolan saw Irisa hurt because Tommy was with Berlin. Tommy wasn't wrong to move on, and I think Nolan knows that, but that doesn't mean he still didn't want to make the person who broke Irisa's heart suffer the same.

[jhlipton]

I'm not particularly sympathetic towards Tommy. Far too often he comes across as a petulant child who cares more about his own advancement and status than about the actual responsibilities that come with being a lawkeeper. Nolan is an ass, but he's an ass who actually gives a crap about doing the right thing and who has some recognition of the actual consequences to people other than himself.

I've never seen Tommy shirk anything. He doesn't alway agree wth Nolan, but that, in fact makes him a better lawman then just blindly following wherever the Daddy Figure says to go. Nolan is a crappy LAWKeeper, caring more about his personal feelings and vendettas than about the law or the town in general.

 

 

Tommy wasn't wrong to move on, and I think Nolan knows that

 

That makes Nolan an ass.  Plus, If Irisa was heart-broken (which, if she was, was for five minutes at most), hurting Tommy was not going to make her feel better.  Nolan didn't sleep with Berlin to get back at Tommy -- he slept with her because he's a horndog who will sleep with pretty much anyone.

 

===========================================================

 

I know the show expects us to side with Nolan on this, but, as I've said before, Nolan is a bully and I don't like or respect bullies.

Edited August 17, 2014 by jhlipton

[maczero]

Yes. I think Nolan in part slept with Berlin to hurt Tommy the way Nolan saw Irisa hurt because Tommy was with Berlin. Tommy wasn't wrong to move on, and I think Nolan knows that, but that doesn't mean he still didn't want to make the person who broke Irisa's heart suffer the same.

 

I think Nolan had sex with Berlin because she made herself available and Amanda was busy babying Pottinger.  Now taunting Tommy with the fact that he was having sex with Berlin was meant to hurt him.  However, it had nothing to do with Irisa.  He did it because Tommy snitched on him to Pottinger about Nolan destroying evidence.  Now Tommy was in the right in regards to the duties of his position but Nolan is the type of guy who believes in loyalty to friends comes first.  Nolan has been holding a grudge against Tommy since that incident.

Edited August 17, 2014 by maczero

[shapeshifter]

I think Nolan had sex with Berlin because she made herself available and Amanda was busy babying Pottinger. Now taunting Tommy with the fact that he was having sex with Berlin was meant to hurt him. However, it had nothing to do with Irisa. He did it because Tommy snitched on him to Pottinger about Nolan destroying evidence. Now Tommy was in the right in regards to the duties of his position but Nolan is the type of guy who believes in loyalty to friends comes first. Nolan has been holding a grudge against Tommy since that incident.

I watch too much TV. Can you refresh my memory about the evidence plot point? Edited August 17, 2014 by shapeshifter

[maczero]

I watch too much TV. Can you refresh my memory about the evidence plot point?

 

It was when Pottinger's convoy was robbed by miners.  The miners kill a few e-rep soldiers.  One of the miners leaves a boot print on one of the soldier's bodies.  During the investigation, Tommy identifies the dust from the boot print as gulanite.  Nolan says it's just dust and proceeds to brush off the boot print.  Tommy says he's destroying evidence and Nolan ignores him. 

[Latverian Diplomat]

I wasn't paying close attention: where did Datak & Co. drop off Doc Yewll?

To me, it looked like the ruins of Union Station (not the maglev station from last week, the present day St. Louis landmark). 

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=union+station+st.+louis&rlz=1C1EODB_enUS518US518&espv=2&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=Tu_wU-Qxhu6gBIbVgogP&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAg&biw=1220&bih=618#q=union+station+st.+louis+exterior&tbm=isch

 

It used to be the busiest train station in the country, back around 1900 when St. Louis was America's 4th(!) largest city.

 

After going to seed it was refurbished as a shopping center. IIRC, it's not <i>that</i> far from the Arch, but I can never get a sense of how big Defiance is supposed to be and who knows how screwed up the local geography is.

Edited August 17, 2014 by Latverian Diplomat

[Ottis]

I wasn't paying close attention: where did Datak & Co. drop off Doc Yewll?

 

 

I was in St. Louis a few months ago and that building was either Union Station of a large, historical building next to a park that I can't name. I walked past it on the way to the arch. If it is Union Station, that opens a lot of potential (underground?) passageways for fugitive Doc Y to use.

 

I had trouble with Stahma's freak out. Her whole appeal was how cool and clever she was in taking over Datak's business . I didn't like seeing her lose it so easily. Another approach might have been to say hmm, I know I killed Kenya, so let's find out who that person actually is. That sounds more like the plotting Stahma I thought I knew.

 

And was it just me or did the show go out of its way to show the fake Kenya with no makeup?

 

 

.

Edited August 18, 2014 by Ottis

[Bruinsfan]

I did almost mistake Mia Kirschner for Amanda Tapping w/brunette hair a few times. Though Helen Magnus wouldn't have needed any rescuing...

[maczero]

I had trouble with Stahma's freak out. Her whole appeal was how cool and clever she was in taking over Datak's business . I didn't like seeing her lose it so easily. Another approach might have been to say hmm, I know I killed Kenya, so let's find out who that person actually is. That sounds more like the plotting Stahma I thought I knew.

.

I feel Stahma's reaction was perfect.  Taking over Datak's business is one thing.  Seeing someone you murdered, walking around is another matter entirely.  Also, Stahma is a much better character when you see different sides of her.