S06.E06: Axe and Grind

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I don't think she necessarily expected Howard to clean up. She was just unaware of the mess. It's probably too clever to say that Howard was making her aware of the Jimmy mess, and she didn't seem to care about that either.

Yes! Funny that at the beginning of the series I didn't really care for Howard. IIRC, we won't supposed to like him particularly. But now he just comes across like a good guy, or a guy trying to be good and do the right thing. Reminds me of Hank from BB. I didn't like him at the beginning, but by the end he was one of the few admirable characters. And Jimmy and Kim have every opportunity to do good as well. They have each other. They have legitimate jobs. Even if Jimmy is representing unsavory characters, it seems that he's giving good legal advice. But their inner demons have control.

Yes, the eventual nobility of Hank and Howard, in good measure due to a willingness to engage in honest self assessment and correction, are tightly paralleled, and stand in contrast to other characters.

[Simon Boccanegra]

Kim is a great character of a kind I have not seen so often. She's done everything the right way and she's really good at it. She was a rising star at HHM. Schweikart and Cokely thought highly of her. The Mesa Verde people adored her. Cliff thinks highly of her. Judges and legal adversaries respect her. There's nothing in the way of her getting all the things she told herself she wanted, and still there's an internal force pulling her in a darker direction. I like that it isn't the obvious play of "love for a devious man" (as Howard or Suzanne Ericsen would assume from their vantage). It's something deeper in her. It's the same thing that made her so drawn to the devious man in the first place. 

I was one of those people who (usually) disliked Skyler White, and I thought the handling of the female characters on Breaking Bad -- the handful there were -- was one of its weaknesses. But Kim is fascinating to me, and I think she's one of the greatest creations of the Albuquerque Universe. Rhea Seehorn deserves credit too, of course.

24 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Funny that at the beginning of the series I didn't really care for Howard. IIRC, we won't supposed to like him particularly.

He was season 1's smokescreen antagonist, after all. We were led to believe until almost the end of the season (whether some guessed the truth earlier or not) that he was the one who didn't want Jimmy anywhere near HHM. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by Simon Boccanegra

[Adiba]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

We do seem to spend more time discussing Kim, but I guess we're just hoping she changes out of those Bad Idea Jeans and exits Bad Choice Road so she can check out of this Heartbreak Hotel...

Seriously, no question that misogyny will always inform our discussions about Kim. (Note the policing of her hair in this thread!) But I think it's also that Kim is now center stage in this story, certainly more than any other non-BB character, and I'd argue even more than Jimmy; so we talk about her more. And that prominence is because her moral quandary is the murkiest and thus the most compelling, if not the most action-packed. I'm finding her journey absolutely fascinating and I'm certain it's going to end tragically.

Yes, Kim is the most intriguing character this season, imo, therefore the discussion here does tend to focus on her more than the others. 
We have been given plenty of background on Jimmy, we know what motivates Mike and Gus, and Lalo is a straight-up psychopath/sociopath. 
I couldn’t help but say, “yep!” When Kim was recounting to Cliff what HHM has given her. She seems to take that help for granted, or even resents the help she got. Also, yes Kim had a rough childhood— but she has brains and beauty. Who is to say that some of the pro bono clients she helps aren’t going to view her the same way that she views Howard, et al? She is a pretty, blond, white educated woman who will be telling them what’s best for them, what they should do— something Kim herself hates others to do to her.

[Ellaria]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

Re: Kim's motivations: clearly has some contempt for Howard, and for privileged good old boys in general, but I'm not sure that's really what's driving her here. I think she's addicted to the thrill of these schemes. The "let's go after Howard on behalf of the Sandpiper clients" plan seemed like a half-hearted justification for doing what she really wanted - trying to pull off something really huge.

Agree. Judging by that U-turn, her primary motivation is the "win."  And it seems like she needs immediate gratification. She could have followed Jimmy's suggestion and "rescheduled" their plan AND still attended her meeting in Santa Fe. She chose a different path. I love Kim but I will make no excuses for her going forward.

 

[BC4ME]

I'm not sure what this means if anything but there was a lot of attention paid to how neatly Howard prepared his wife's coffee, then how obliviously messy she was pouring it (aside from the seemingly hurtful aspect). Then later Cliff and Kim are at the courthouse and it shows the coffee machine spilling coffee while filling and being removed by either Cliff or Kim (it's not clear). Any ideas?

[Tracer34]

I miss a lot of things on BCS. I must be really thick.

F'rinstance, what the heck was "Omaha Beach" and that building Kim & Jimmy were looking at while driving wine?

[EtheltoTillie]

Just now, Tracer34 said:

I miss a lot of things on BCS. I must be really thick.

F'rinstance, what the heck was "Omaha Beach" and that building Kim & Jimmy were looking at while driving wine?

Omaha Beach was the site of the D Day invasion in World War II.   They were also calling their operation day D Day.  And Omaha is a big city in Nebraska.  And Kim is apparently from Nebraska.

[Razzberry]

Kim's hair has been made almost a character in itself.  Any significance that as a young girl she didn't wear a ponytail, yet as a professional woman she wears the ponytail of a young girl?  Or have I caught the overanalyzing bug?  lol

 

[Razzberry]

Mike's "Pop Pop"  routine is getting old.  We get it, he's not totally bad, but even Hitler loved his mother deeply.  Makes no difference to me.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Razzberry

[Gobi]

15 minutes ago, Tracer34 said:

I miss a lot of things on BCS. I must be really thick.

F'rinstance, what the heck was "Omaha Beach" and that building Kim & Jimmy were looking at while driving wine?

The building was the offices of Hamlin Hamlin & McGill. The initials HHM were on the side. The building is where their D-Day operation will take place.

Edited May 17, 2022 by Gobi

[EtheltoTillie]

I noticed the earrings on Kim, but I had never noticed that she had always worn them, so thanks to everyone who pointed that out.

I for one want to compliment Kim on her skillful lawyering during that hearing on the traffic stop for driving while using an air freshener.  

Edited May 17, 2022 by EtheltoTillie

[PeterPirate]

11 minutes ago, Gobi said:

The building was the offices of Hamlin Hamlin & McGill. The initials HHM were on the side.

And just to put the bow on top, "D-Day" is going to take place in the HHM conference room the next day.  

Which makes me wonder why the day before D-Day was called "T -1" instead of "D -1".

Edited May 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[gallimaufry]

I loved this episode but the last scene... I just don't get it.  I mean, at this point, there is absolutely no external reason to want the money.  It's purely about Howard or... whatever it is.  But the whole thing is so opaque and there's just no indication they're even planning to elucidate.  The teaser was great and I'm so glad it was in there but it didn't really give us anything especially new.  It's great that Kim is internally motivated but we're at the point where we really just need to know what those motivations are and I'm kind of fed up with the folderol.

Mike and his daughter - lovely scene and one of the most moving ones.  I don't know we learned much from it though.

Lalo's scene was great.  I completely expected it to be Kai he tracked down so this was a surprise.  Great location and terrific tension.

Howard - at the start of the episode, I hoped it was going to be a big Howard episode but he petered out.  However, the scene with his wife is heartbreaking.  The coffee in particular was perfectly played.  That said, I have to question why the wife is only now being introduced so very late if she's to play any part at all besides just giving us a glimpse into Howard's home life.

Francesca's great - her doomed renovation is one of the more fun ways the show has used foreknowledge of "Breaking Bad".

I liked the way the vet was given a cap.  Kim going straight for the best quality vacuum is either foreshadowing or just mischief; I tend to think the former.

I mean, it was a great episode as a spectacle and I loved individual moments but it really feels lacking in substance.  A lot is riding on next week to deliver the goods and explain what this stuff is all about.

[SimplexFish]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I think we are. I couldn't figure out why Jimmy would drug himself, but then someone here suggested it was Howard they were going to drug, probably to support the scam that Howard is doing drugs. I don't know how they plan on drugging him. Maybe Kim, whom he trusts, will hand him a cup of coffee -- or is tea his preferred drink? 

I agree...remember Saul did ask if it could be detected in a drug screening, so that make me its for Howard. Why would Saul need/want to look like HE is on drugs? 

 

I think the writers are directing us to embrace Howard as we near this climax...and its working.  

[SailorGirl]

3 hours ago, peeayebee said:

After Nacho was killed I expected more about the Salamanca's going after his father. I even thought that Alameda St was where the dad lived. Maybe that's yet to come.

Funny when Jimmy and Kim went on their little evening picnic outside of HH&M, calling it Omaha Beach in honor of D-Day.

Alameda Street is where Kaylie and her mother live. We know Mike has "guys" watching the street because in their face-off, Tyrus told Mike "Alameda Street is a long shot" and to pull the guys from there. Mike refused. We then saw the importance of Alameda Street to Mike and why he won't pull the guys. 

RE: them having the picnic outside of HHM -- I wonder if either they didn't know Howard hired a PI to follow them or that once the PI got the shot of Jimmy leaving the bank with the cash, Howard pulled him. Because otherwise, the PI would have followed them to HHM and taken pictures of them "picknicking" on the HHM lawn.

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

I loved this episode but the last scene... I just don't get it.  I mean, at this point, there is absolutely no external reason to want the money.  It's purely about Howard or... whatever it is.  But the whole thing is so opaque and there's just no indication they're even planning to elucidate.  The teaser was great and I'm so glad it was in there but it didn't really give us anything especially new.  It's great that Kim is internally motivated but we're at the point where we really just need to know what those motivations are and I'm kind of fed up with the folderol.

Mike and his daughter - lovely scene and one of the most moving ones.  I don't know we learned much from it though.

Lalo's scene was great.  I completely expected it to be Kai he tracked down so this was a surprise.  Great location and terrific tension.

Howard - at the start of the episode, I hoped it was going to be a big Howard episode but he petered out.  However, the scene with his wife is heartbreaking.  The coffee in particular was perfectly played.  That said, I have to question why the wife is only now being introduced so very late if she's to play any part at all besides just giving us a glimpse into Howard's home life.

Francesca's great - her doomed renovation is one of the more fun ways the show has used foreknowledge of "Breaking Bad".

I liked the way the vet was given a cap.  Kim going straight for the best quality vacuum is either foreshadowing or just mischief; I tend to think the former.

I mean, it was a great episode as a spectacle and I loved individual moments but it really feels lacking in substance.  A lot is riding on next week to deliver the goods and explain what this stuff is all about.

I think the writers have given Kim plenty of rational basis for having a hatred of Howard, and have hinted strongly as to why that hatred has reached irrational dimensions. We'll see if it is further illuminated.

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, SimplexFish said:

I do think that Kim's mother was in on the shoplifting, she even stole something herself

Yes, she stole the earrings that she gave to Kim on the way out of the store. Earrings that adult Kim still wears all the time. She’s been wearing those earrings since 1986.

[peeayebee]

42 minutes ago, BC4ME said:

I'm not sure what this means if anything but there was a lot of attention paid to how neatly Howard prepared his wife's coffee, then how obliviously messy she was pouring it (aside from the seemingly hurtful aspect). Then later Cliff and Kim are at the courthouse and it shows the coffee machine spilling coffee while filling and being removed by either Cliff or Kim (it's not clear). Any ideas?

I think there's some interesting stuff there, though I'm not sure if I get it all that well. 

Howard prepares coffee with great care, but it goes unappreciated by his wife.

At the courthouse, we see vending machine coffee splosh into a cup. 

Kim drinks it normally. She's used to it. Cliff makes a disgusted face and says, "Phew!" He's used to good coffee, like Howard. He then asks how she left things with Howard. So there's a nice connection with the earlier scene at Howard's house, not just with the coffee, but with Howard. Yet I can't quite put my finger on anything really substantial.

Kim only has good things to say about Howard. And she doesn't lie. "I wouldn't be here today if it wasn't for Howard. I wouldn't have been an attorney, I wouldn't have met my husband. I owe Howard and HHM a lot."

[peeayebee]

22 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

I liked the way the vet was given a cap.  Kim going straight for the best quality vacuum is either foreshadowing or just mischief; I tend to think the former.

Was there a scene earlier in the series where Kim buys a vacuum? 

[PeterPirate]

I am still flummoxed by the opener.  I am convinced from the behavior of Kim's mother that she was the instigator of some sort of scam.  Especially the part where she told Kim "You got away with it".  Since Kim was in fact caught, she did not get away with anything, unless the plan called for Kim to get caught. 

On the flip side, I don't see how this scam was supposed to work.  Did mom think the store was going to let them walk out with the merchandise without paying for it?  Was the real sting supposed to be mom taking the merchandise?    

[SimplexFish]

41 minutes ago, Gobi said:

The building was the offices of Hamlin Hamlin & McGill. The initials HHM were on the side. The building is where their D-Day operation will take place.

I thought them having the late night picnic at the scene of the crime was pretty stupid on there part.  Again I will ask...where is Howard's PI? He had to get a pic of them on the lawn drinking wine? Also he will have pics of the film crew taking all the equipment into Sauls office. Seems like a lot of "evidence" is being built up here. 

45 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

Mike's "Pop Pop"  routine is getting old.  We get it, he's not totally bad, but even Hitler loved his mother deeply.  Makes no difference to me.

I don't agree...I think its a crucial part of Mikes character and of the show. 

[SimplexFish]

44 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I for one want to compliment Kim on her skillful lawyering during that hearing on the traffic stop for driving while using an air freshener.  

Also an interesting choice of air fresheners the writers to use in the scene

[gallimaufry]

7 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I think the writers have given Kim plenty of rational basis for having a hatred of Howard, and have hinted strongly as to why that hatred has reached irrational dimensions. We'll see if it is further illuminated.

Really?  They worked together for years.  He gave her the truth about Chuck when he wouldn't give it to anyone else.  Yes, he put her in the corn fields but in narrative terms this was years ago.  She took a job as partner alongside someone she Freudean-slipped her way into admitting was another Howard.  Their run-ins haven't been entirely cordial but I just don't get the sense of some burning desire for vengeance and if so, for... what?  Transferred rage because he's the totem of an unjust system?  Tit-for-tat for trying to sink her without cause?  And when it's balanced against something that is an unambiguous flat-out win, everything she ever wanted on a plate potentially?

I understood why Walt would turn down Grey Matter to cook meth.  It was horrible but you could see that overwhelming pride.  I just don't get how the scales balance here.  Even assuming it's (as Kim once said) the fallacy of sunk costs... she's sunk everything into her pro bono business as well.  I just don't feel this.  What am I missing?

[Dev F]

2 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I am still flummoxed by the opener.  I am convinced from the behavior of Kim's mother that she was the instigator of some sort of scam.  Especially the part where she told Kim "You got away with it".

She did get away with it, precisely because Kim's mother did instigate a scam. Her mom pretended that she was this hardass who was going to punish Kim herself, so the store guy decided he didn't need to do anything else to her. It wasn't anything more convoluted than that.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Gobi said:

I think it’s because Lalo, et. al. are beyond redemption. They are what they are and will not change. Kim still has a chance to turn it around. Viewers want her to do the right thing, and know that the others never will. I keep hoping that she will have an epiphany and “break good”, even if it means separating herself from Jimmy. Given the world of BB and BCS, unfortunately, I doubt she has a happy end in store.

I get what you’re saying. Kim is a great lawyer, and our legal system is a travesty for those who can’t afford their own lawyers. We have a 2 tiered justice system and very few seem to care or want to make it more equitable. So I’m incredibly touched and impressed by what she’s doing by serving people who don’t usually get a fair shake instead of working for the Kevins and Howards of the world and making them richer. So it’s heartbreaking to see her possibly throw everything away for this revenge plot. But I don’t feel visceral contempt and hatred for her as too many seem to. The tiny glimpses we’ve gotten into her childhood and past give us some clues about her current motivations, but she’s still mostly a mystery, imo. People are incredibly complicated. I think she is genuinely a good person at heart and truly does want to help those in need. When she got the phone call from Saul on her way to the interview, I was hoping that she would just tell him to forget about the whole Howard plan. It was heartbreaking to see her turn around. I do see misogyny here, as always, and it just makes me sad. Particularly female misogynists. 🥲

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cinnabon

[SimplexFish]

11 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I am still flummoxed by the opener.  I am convinced from the behavior of Kim's mother that she was the instigator of some sort of scam.  Especially the part where she told Kim "You got away with it".  

 

Agreed

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

Yes, the eventual nobility of Hank and Howard, in good measure due to a willingness to engage in honest self assessment and correction, are tightly paralleled, and stand in contrast to other characters.

Noooo! I see your point, and I too started out hating Hank and his bravado, but he later became one of my favorite fictional characters of all time. I’m not going to be able to say that about Howard.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Kim's hair has been made almost a character in itself.  Any significance that as a young girl she didn't wear a ponytail, yet as a professional woman she wears the ponytail of a young girl?  Or have I caught the overanalyzing bug?  lol

 

I have never liked the curl in her ponytail, but I think she often wears her hair that way for work because it’s easy and tidy and professional. She doesn’t want to have to invest any more time and energy into doing her hair in the mornings than necessary. She lets her hair down after work when she can relax. I can relate! 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Mike's "Pop Pop"  routine is getting old.  We get it, he's not totally bad, but even Hitler loved his mother deeply.  Makes no difference to me.

I agree. If he truly loved his family, he wouldn’t be putting them in grave danger all of the time. I get that he wants to make money to give to his granddaughter, but why not just take out a life insurance policy with a hefty payout for her?

[Penman61]

Maybe everyone else knew, but I just realized on rewatch (to see in that dark better) that Lalo cut off Casper's foot in their fight. First viewing, I thought Lalo had merely cut him enough that he suggested the tourniquet. Yikes.

[Constantinople]

7 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

So now we know that while Kim is basically a good girl who makes straight A's

I wouldn't be surprised if Kim got straight As in school, but I wouldn't take it as true based on what her mother is saying to manipulate the store manager.

[PeterPirate]

26 minutes ago, Dev F said:

She did get away with it, precisely because Kim's mother did instigate a scam. Her mom pretended that she was this hardass who was going to punish Kim herself, so the store guy decided he didn't need to do anything else to her. It wasn't anything more convoluted than that.

Thing is, all of the YouTube reviewers say Kim really did shoplift on her own. 

And again, I don't see how the scam was actually supposed to work.  The store manager is going to notice the missing earrings and he knows who took them. 

The only way this scam works is if the manager says "The merchandise is damaged so go ahead and take it.  And since you are such a great mother you don't have to pay."

For that matter, I don't think Skylar walked out of the jewelry store with the item that Marie lifted for her.  

Edited May 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[BC4ME]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

I agree. If he truly loved his family, he wouldn’t be putting them in grave danger all of the time. I get that he wants to make money to give to his granddaughter, but why not just take out a life insurance policy with a hefty payout for her?

I think we both know once you've gone down "bad choice road" there's no turning back for Mike. 

Money seems to be fueling a lot of "bad choice road" excuses in both BB and BCS.

[Cinnabon]

19 minutes ago, Dev F said:

She did get away with it, precisely because Kim's mother did instigate a scam. Her mom pretended that she was this hardass who was going to punish Kim herself, so the store guy decided he didn't need to do anything else to her. It wasn't anything more convoluted than that.

And Kim wasn’t in on it from the start. She was simply a dumb teenager who tried to shoplift a cheap pair of earrings. She didn’t expect her mom to react that way, and inadvertently gained her mom’s respect for “getting away with it.” Her mom told her she didn’t think Kim had it in her. Kim ended up getting some love, attention and respect from her mom that she never got by studying hard, being intelligent, and being a “good” girl. Clearly these dynamics still motivate Kim 20 years later.

[PeterPirate]

47 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I get what you’re saying. Kim is a great lawyer, and our legal system is a travesty for those who can’t afford their own lawyers. We have a 2 tiered justice system and very few seem to care or want to make it more equitable. So I’m incredibly touched and impressed by what she’s doing by serving people who don’t usually get a fair shake instead of working for the Kevins and Howards of the world and making them richer. So it’s heartbreaking to see her possibly throw everything away for this revenge plot. But I don’t feel visceral contempt and hatred for her as too much seem to. The tiny glimpses we’ve gotten into her childhood and past give us some clues about her current motivations, but she’s still mostly a mystery, imo. People are incredibly complicated. I think she is genuinely a good person at heart and truly does want to help those in need. When she got the phone call from Saul on her way to the interview, I was hoping that she would just tell him to forget about the whole Howard plan. It was heartbreaking to see her turn around. I do see misogyny here, as always, and it just makes me sad. Particularly female misogynists. 🥲

I feel your pain.  When I first showed up here at the start of Season 3 I was about the only pro-Chuck, anti-Jimmy poster.  In fact it took me a while to decide if I was going to jump in. 

That said, I am just as anti-Kim as anybody here.  Like Ellaria Sand, I love Kim but I am not going to cut her any slack.  

I have a lot more to say about Kim but I am planning to wait until the mid-season break.  

Edited May 17, 2022 by PeterPirate

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

Mike's "Pop Pop"  routine is getting old.  We get it, he's not totally bad, but even Hitler loved his mother deeply.  Makes no difference to me.

The astronomy scene made sense because it follows up on Tyrus wanting to pull the men from surveilling Mike's granddaughter's house, but

We already knew they were thin on resources from a conversation between Mike and Gus a couple of episodes ago.

So the only new information from the two scenes is the tension between Tyrus and Gus. But I don't know why we need to know that. Maybe it's nothing, just routine irritation between two stressed colleagues. Or maybe it explains why Tyrus and Mike interacted so little, if at all, in Breaking Bad. But does anyone care that much?

[SimplexFish]

Since we know the future BB episodes this is kinda a mute point, but as since was set before BB and written after the fact, I'm surprised that the writers would let Mike allow Tyrus to know about his own family living on Alameda St. He seems too smart to have that knowledge available that can be used against him later on...

Edited May 17, 2022 by SimplexFish

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

Thing is, all of the YouTube reviewers say Kim really did shoplift on her own. 

And again, I don't see how the scam was actually supposed to work.  The store manager is going to notice the missing earrings and he knows who took them.  

She did shoplift, but got caught. Then her Mom flummoxed the store owner and got him on Kim's side to the point where she didn't get punished by the store and wouldn't be paying anything back.

[PeterPirate]

8 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

She did shoplift, but got caught. Then her Mom flummoxed the store owner and got him on Kim's side to the point where she didn't get punished by the store and wouldn't be paying anything back.

Yeah.  I suppose the point of the scene was that Kim had it in her to commit a crime.  

[SimplexFish]

20 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

 

Double post

Edited May 17, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Cinnabon]

36 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Since we know the future BB episodes this is kinda a mute point, but as since was set before BB and written after the fact, I'm surprised that the writers would let Mike allow Tyrus to know about his own family living on Alameda St. He seems too smart to have that knowledge available that can be used against him later on...

No one can be trusted in the criminal, cutthroat world Mike joined. His granddaughter is in potential danger from all sides.

[Penman61]

I think Kim's reaction to Francesca's decor choice was "This isn't Saul Goodman--not flashy, not enough pow and pizzazz to fight for the little guy."

Basically same as her reaction to Jimmy and his having a bland Taurus (or was it a Camry?).

Edited May 17, 2022 by Penman61

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

Really?  They worked together for years.  He gave her the truth about Chuck when he wouldn't give it to anyone else.  Yes, he put her in the corn fields but in narrative terms this was years ago.  She took a job as partner alongside someone she Freudean-slipped her way into admitting was another Howard.  Their run-ins haven't been entirely cordial but I just don't get the sense of some burning desire for vengeance and if so, for... what?  Transferred rage because he's the totem of an unjust system?  Tit-for-tat for trying to sink her without cause?  And when it's balanced against something that is an unambiguous flat-out win, everything she ever wanted on a plate potentially?

I understood why Walt would turn down Grey Matter to cook meth.  It was horrible but you could see that overwhelming pride.  I just don't get how the scales balance here.  Even assuming it's (as Kim once said) the fallacy of sunk costs... she's sunk everything into her pro bono business as well.  I just don't feel this.  What am I missing?

If somebody consigned me to one of the lower circles of hell within a firm, after I put a mountain of cash in their pocket, for no other reason than my intimate partner (who put another mountain of cash in the person's pocket) behaved ridiculously at another firm where we found a job for him ( because he gave that firm a mountain of cash, too), that's an ingrate and dumbass I'd hold in extreme contempt for a very, very, long time. That's before we get to Howard's irresponsible, entitled, inept, cowardice in managing his relationship with Chuck. One of the brilliant aspects to this writing is that Howard has not been a static character, and has evolved into a considerably better person, one of the few to do so in this story, but that doesn't Kim's hatred of him was not well earned. It was.

The irrational aspect of her hatred, where she is risking so much to serve it, is not yet fully illuminated yet, but we are much closer than we once were. We'll see.

[Bannon]

25 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

No one can be trusted in the criminal, cutthroat world Mike joined. His granddaughter is in potential danger from all sides.

Hector and the Salamanca cousins learned of Mike's grandaughter and DiL years ago, before Mike ever met Gus. Lalo's on the loose. Mike has to assume Lalo might try to harm them.

[Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If somebody consigned me to one of the lower circles of hell within a firm, after I put a mountain of cash in their pocket, for no other reason than my intimate partner (who put another mountain of cash in the person's pocket) behaved ridiculously at another firm where we found a job for him ( because he gave that firm a mountain of cash, too), that's an ingrate and dumbass I'd hold in extreme contempt for a very, very, long time. That's before we get to Howard's irresponsible, entitled, inept, cowardice in managing his relationship with Chuck. One of the brilliant aspects to this writing is that Howard has not been a static character, and has evolved into a considerably better person, one of the few to do so in this story, but that doesn't Kim's hatred of him was not well earned. It was.

The irrational aspect of her hatred, where she is risking so much to serve it, is not yet fully illuminated yet, but we are much closer than we once were. We'll see.

Am I the only one here who saw Howard’s incredibly patronizing, arrogant behavior when he followed Kim off that elevator to “warn” her about Jimmy’s bowling ball shenanigans? He really thought she needed his guidance and protection. She’s a grown, strong, incredibly intelligent, independent woman and didn’t need his advice or protection. Most people really don’t appreciate someone who thinks they’re doing them a favor by tattling on their spouses. If Howard thought Jimmy was cheating on Kim, would he have rushed over to warn her? Even if true, most people will resent the messenger. Would Howard have made a point to warn a male friend about their wife’s alleged activities in the same way?

Edited May 17, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Sharper2002]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

Really?  They worked together for years.  He gave her the truth about Chuck when he wouldn't give it to anyone else.  Yes, he put her in the corn fields but in narrative terms this was years ago.  She took a job as partner alongside someone she Freudean-slipped her way into admitting was another Howard.  Their run-ins haven't been entirely cordial but I just don't get the sense of some burning desire for vengeance and if so, for... what?  Transferred rage because he's the totem of an unjust system?  Tit-for-tat for trying to sink her without cause?  And when it's balanced against something that is an unambiguous flat-out win, everything she ever wanted on a plate potentially?

If I can interpret it, I think Kim hates more of what Howard stands for more than anything. I’ve never really taken to Kim the character but I can somewhat see where she’s coming from in that Howard has likely never had to really struggle in his life and held this great power imbalance over her. Before Chuck died, he was smug and self-obsessed about his image. And while Kim was at HHM, she was the dutiful employee willing to be the scapegoat if it came down to it to protect Chuck and/Howard. Even when she left and looked to take Mesa Verde, the client she brought on, Howard and Chuck battled to keep them on because of course they should be the ones to keep a client like Mesa Verde. Then Chuck dies and Howard is put in the position of giving Jimmy his pittance of inheritance, which Kim thought was fitting it would come from Howard. Now Howard has done work to try and become a better man and right some of those wrongs, but Kim doesn’t see it. She sees the Howards and Kevin of the world as doing as they please, collateral damage be damned. So in her mind, she’ll show them some real damage.

Now I don’t think her vengeance plan is a good idea all and my answer would be go to therapy, but I guess we wouldn’t have this plot then. 

[anoninrva]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

I understood why Walt would turn down Grey Matter to cook meth.  It was horrible but you could see that overwhelming pride.  I just don't get how the scales balance here.  Even assuming it's (as Kim once said) the fallacy of sunk costs... she's sunk everything into her pro bono business as well.  I just don't feel this.  What am I missing?

I just rewatched that episode yesterday, and while, yes, of course Walt does have a lot of hubris, I still think that the bad blood between him and Gretchen is *personal*, although I don't remember if they go in more depth later about their failed romantic relationship.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Am I the only one here who saw Howard’s incredibly patronizing, arrogant behavior when he followed Kim off that elevator to “warn” her about Jimmy’s bowling ball shenanigans? He really thought she needed his guidance and protection. She’s a grown, strong, incredibly intelligent, independent woman and didn’t need his advice or protection. Most people really don’t appreciate someone who thinks they’re doing them a favor by tattling on their spouses. If Howard thought Jimmy was cheating on Kim, would he have rushed over to warn her? Even if true, most people will resent the messenger. Would Howard have made a point to warn a male friend about their wife’s alleged activities in the same way?

Oh, absolutely, especially after Kim previously expressed her rage at Howard, for going out of his way to let Jimmy know that Chuck died in agony, not painlessly from inhaling toxic smoke. Howard is a multifaceted character, who has been on a path of improvement since Jimmy (in another great turn of ironic writing) chewed his ass out, and told him to take resonsibility for his life. That doesn't mean Kim has no reason to hate him, however, or that he's been a saint since that ass chewing from Jimmy.

[suzeecat]

2 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Mike's "Pop Pop"  routine is getting old.  We get it, he's not totally bad, but even Hitler loved his mother deeply.  Makes no difference to me.

While I appreciate every detail that the writers, directors and producers painstakingly include, I was wondering, and still do, why we had to put up with Mike stargazing with his granddaughter.  They move so slowly through scenes like this, like we're supposed to be watching v-e-r-r-y closely for clues, but I think this was just a distraction.  Or, do they call it a "red herring"?

[SimplexFish]

21 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Hector and the Salamanca cousins learned of Mike's grandaughter and DiL years ago, before Mike ever met Gus. Lalo's on the loose. Mike has to assume Lalo might try to harm them.

Yes...I was referring to Mike allowing the POS Tyrus yo know who she is, Mike should have had his boys there but not under the Gus protection plan. 

Edited May 17, 2022 by SimplexFish