S03.E02: Dead Man's Party

[Mya Stone]

 

A Nigerian mask reanimates the dead, forcing Buffy to battle a horde of zombies.

 

There's really nothing I can add to @Sarah D. Bunting 's awesome breakdown of this episode. 

Except for this: 

 

Can we please talk about the elephant sized too blonde highlights and why anyone in their right mind thought it was a good idea? This new look on the Buffster is a cry for help. It's just screaming "Deep condition me. I'm nothing without Angel. I'm channeling Spike in my highlights. Someone....please...."

 

Maybe the episode should have been renamed "Dead Hair Party." 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

 

Parts of it are pretty straight-ahead, whether hilarious (the running "Nighthawk" gag) or painful (the awkwardness derived from Buffy not considering what the others might have gone through, or how they might have adapted by necessity, in her absence; Willow and Xander receiving Buffy's disappearance as something done TO them; nobody worrying about or even considering the possibility that she's not just gone, but dead or in trouble). But there's some ugly shit here that never really gets resolved. Willow's face when Buffy pulls her aside at the party is so deeply snotty and resentful, and this from a character who gets increasingly breathy and effortfully cute in S3; Xander OF ALL PEOPLE ripping into Buffy -- who, as everyone also seems to forget, left town partly because she had a murder rap on her at the time -- for needing to peace out and get herself together elsewhere.

 

I came to call Dead Man's Party 'The One Where Everyone's An Asshole', but the bolded part is the root of the other assholism that takes place in the ep, IMO. Yes, Xander and Willow were ill-tempered and not gracious when Buffy returned, but the flip side of that it kind of was something she did to them when she left. I said this in her character thread, so I won't repeat the whole thing here, but she could have thought enough of them to actually, I don't know, say that she was in pain and needed help when she came back after three months of silence. She neither called nor wrote, and in fact got a job waiting tables under an alias while she was gone, so I think she was putting things in place so that she'd never have to go back. I don't love how Willow and Xander acted, but I love how Buffy acted to begin with even less. It's the fact that she didn't even trust them enough to try talking, either instead of leaving or after she returned, @DAngelus said it in another thread, but I'd also like to think that the sight of Willow in that wheelchair is what makes her run away. However, it plays out on screen like the beginning of Buffy's (very long) "Me, me, me!" phase.

[KatWay]

Buffy didn't behave very well in this ep nor with her absence, but everyone else bothered me a lot more. They all acted like she just ran away for no good reason whatsoever, despite the fact that she had been forced to kill her first love, had been thrown out of her house by her mother, had been called responsible for Willow's injury, had an arrest warrant for murder on her and had been thrown out of school.

 

Jeez, any one of these could make someone lose their mind and make them run, all of them combined? I'd say running away and waiting tables for two months was pretty damn mild. 

 

And I've said it before and I'll say it again it's the passive aggressiveness by everyone that bugs me so much in this ep. They could just vent their frustrations right away, but instead it's all, oh no, everything's fine, no problem, lalala I can't see or hear you, snide comment, eye rolling, why would you think there's a problem? And then they're just snippy and mean.

 

Sure she didn't say she was in pain so she left, but seriously, anybody with the slightest ability to feel empathy should have easily realised that. Everyone acted like Buffy just up and left for no reason, practically in the middle of the apocalypse, leaving poor Xander/Willow/Cordy to pick up her work. Which, no.

 

So, to sum up, I'm with Sarah D. Bunting on this episode.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Buffy didn't behave very well in this ep nor with her absence, but everyone else bothered me a lot more. They all acted like she just ran away for no good reason whatsoever, despite the fact that she had been forced to kill her first love, had been thrown out of her house by her mother, had been called responsible for Willow's injury, had an arrest warrant for murder on her and had been thrown out of school.

@KatWay, I can't find my DVD set right now, so I can't watch DMP to refresh my memory, but I did the next best thing and went to Buffyworld.com to read the transcript .A few things:

 

Joyce mentions that she was on the phone with the superintendent of schools,who seems more reasonable than Snyder, "that nasty little horrid, bigoted, rodent-man." Then she says that "Miss Porter's" accepts late admissions, to which Buffy responds, "A girls' school? So now it's jackets, kilts, and no boys? Care to throw in a little foot-binding?" Joyce very quietly tells her, "Buffy, you made some bad choices. You just might have to live with some consequences." The transcript says, and I quote, Buffy looks down at the island, knowing that her mom is right.

 

That's the root of it for me, that she made bad choices. First by not taking care of Angelus before he murdered Jenny Calendar, and then letting him off with only a kick to the balls after he snapped Jenny's neck. And really, if she had given Kendra room to strike, both Kendra and Jenny would have lived and Willow wouldn't have ended up doing the re-souling spell after waking up from the coma Angelus' minions put her in. Then she made another bad choice when she ran away. Even if I was inclined to think that she had the right to flee, and I'm not, she made the decision to scarper. Why shouldn't she have to live with a little unpleasantness as a consequence?

 

As for the murder charge, that's apparently miraculously taken care of by the time she gets back, and not even jackhole Snyder brings it up. If she was still wanted by the (deeply stupid) cops, wouldn't they have been at the house to slap the cuffs on her once it became clear that she was back?

 

About Angel, I think we know what happened there. Buffy made the choice, again, to do something she knew would hurt and upset her friends, not to mention Giles, who was probably still having nightmares about finding Jenny's corpse in his bed. But never mind any of that, because Little Miss Me-fett was on her World Tour of Self-Absorption and how dare anyone try to take her to task. For all her later talk of how Faith should face consequences for her actions, she's not too willing to apply the same standard to herself.

 

So yes, Willow and Xander's behavior was not lovely, but it didn't happen in a vacuum. If Buffy wasn't prepared for them to be out-of-sorts with her, if she didn't even consider that they might be hurt and angry, that's not their fault, its hers for being so damn self-centered. Their feelings counted too, whether she liked it or not.

Edited August 14, 2014 by Cobalt Stargazer

[DAngelus]

 

First by not taking care of Angelus before he murdered Jenny Calendar, and then letting him off with only a kick to the balls after he snapped Jenny's neck.

 

Chronological nitpick: the 'nad-kicking was before Jenny's death, at the end of Innocence.  Jenny's corpse being left as a gag-gift in Giles's bed provokes Buffy to tussle briefly with Angel, before he points out that the unconscious G-Man is in danger from the fire and Buffy breaks off the fight to save Rupert. (Actually, I've never thought that shot of Giles-in-Peril was particularly threatening;  I love most of Michael Gershman's directing in Passion, but I'm kind of "meh" about Buffy's "must save Giles!" moment of crisis here.)

 

Buffy does resolve to kill Angel at the episode's end, but that takes four months, five episodes and lots of dead people before she actually accomplishes it.  Overall, I'd have preferred Angel getting another whack in the junk, IMO.

 

 

if [buffy] didn't even consider that [her friends] might be hurt and angry, that's not their fault, its hers for being so damn self-centered. Their feelings counted too, whether she liked it or not.

 

Exactly.  Buffy spends the episode acting like the Scoobies are solipsistic creations, that they don't exist when she isn't there.  The perfect example is when Willow is opening her heart to Buffy in Buffy's room and Buffy is like "I know you all missed me—" and Will is like "No, I mean, my life!"  And I've seen people write that Willow is being selfish, that she's complaining that Buffy wasn't there to hold her hand about Dating a Werewolf and Exploring Magic and so on, when poor St. Buffy had to KILL HER TRUE LOVE (not that he's actually going to stay "dead") and how much of a bitch is Willow?

 

But what Willow is actually doing is pointing out that her and Buffy's friendship is supposed to be a two-way street.  That Willow doesn't merely exist to validate and support Buffy, or even to miss her when she's gone, but that Willow is an independent person with her own life and she needs Buffy in her life just as much as she needed to be included in Buffy's.  And for Buffy to walk away from the friendship, to deprive Willow of having a best friend to talk to, a shoulder to lean on (literally, in her attempt to get out of that wheelchair), without even a word of warning or explanation at a time when Willow was indeed going through some pretty big stuff, well that was fairly freaking cruel, unintentional though it was.  And so yeah, it was more than Willow "missed" her—Willow needed her, she wasn't there, and apparently she hasn't spent two seconds thinking about it.  But hey, Willow wasn't all "yippee!" the moment she saw Buffy again, so let's grab the old lint brush and hit the road!  Yeah, Cordelia's looking pretty good as a backup BFF right now, I'm thinking.

 

(Not that Willow is actually thinking that, I'm sure.  But the fact that Cordelia spent more time with Willow during her post-coma trauma, made more of an effort to be Willow's friend and probably gave Willow a better goodbye before leaving for the summer than Ms. Summers did shows what a hash Buffy made of the whole situation, IMO.  But Buffy comes back and just assumes that her leaving had no effect on anybody, and if the champagne and streamers aren't ready to be wheeled out the moment Buffy comes home, well then she'll just take her stake and go, she knows when she's not wanted…ugh.  JMO, but…ugh.)

[Jediknight]

One thing I hated about Buffy in this episode, was her saying to Xander that she couldn't go to him after running a sword through Angel.  That's a slap to the face of Xander's friendship.  Yeah he's let his feelings about Angel be known, but he's also always been there for Buffy.  He wouldn't have been celebrating that Buffy did that, he would have been supportive.  Hell, after Angel lost his soul, it took till "Passion" for him to say something about it.  In "Phases" he even told Buffy that Angel wasn't the same guy she was with.  She could have went to Xander and the rest of the Scoobies, and they would have had her back.

[Jazzy24]

One thing I hated about Buffy in this episode, was her saying to Xander that she couldn't go to him after running a sword through Angel. That's a slap to the face of Xander's friendship. Yeah he's let his feelings about Angel be known, but he's also always been there for Buffy. He wouldn't have been celebrating that Buffy did that, he would have been supportive. Hell, after Angel lost his soul, it took till "Passion" for him to say something about it. In "Phases" he even told Buffy that Angel wasn't the same guy she was with. She could have went to Xander and the rest of the Scoobies, and they would have had her back.

See I can understand her not going to Xander, he was the number one cheerleader for her to go kill Angel, so I can understand her not going to him. It's pretty glaring how he's absent in theFaith Hope and Trick scene when she finally tells Giles and Willow that Willow's spell worked and how she had to kill Angel, Xander isn't there. She never talks about her relationship with Angel with Xander, she cries with Willow or talks with Giles about it but never Xander.

[ladyrott]

But Buffy comes back and just assumes that her leaving had no effect on anybody, and if the champagne and streamers aren't ready to be wheeled out the moment Buffy comes home, well then she'll just take her stake and go, she knows when she's not wanted…ugh.  JMO, but…ugh.)

 

To be fair, I don't think Buffy's packing to leave in the middle of that party had much, if anything, to do with how her friends were acting.  When she heard her mom say it was better before she came back, it was just too much for her, I think.  I believe she thought about Joyce while she was gone.  I will even go so far as to say I think she might have realized that her mother wasn't seriously throwing her out of the house at the end of Becoming II.  Her mom was understandably upset at the time and Buffy didn't give her a chance to deal with things.  To me, her returning home  was a sign that she WAS ready to acknowledge that Joyce was just upset that night.  And then, when she heard her telling Pat (I HATED that woman and was never so glad to see someone get dead) what essentially sounded like she wished Buffy hadn't come back, it pushed her over the edge and she started packing again.

[Bitterswete]

One thing I hated about Buffy in this episode, was her saying to Xander that she couldn't go to him after running a sword through Angel.  That's a slap to the face of Xander's friendship.  Yeah he's let his feelings about Angel be known, but he's also always been there for Buffy.  He wouldn't have been celebrating that Buffy did that, he would have been supportive.

 

See I can understand her not going to Xander, he was the number one cheerleader for her to go kill Angel,

 

That doesn't mean he wouldn't have felt bad for Buffy because of what she had to do, or what she was going through as a result. Not being Angel's biggest fan (especially after he lost his soul) doesn't mean Xander wouldn't have got that Buffy, his friend, was hurting and tried to be there to support her.

 

I think part of what upset everyone was Buffy didn't give them a chance to be there for them. She just seemed to assume that none of them could possibly be equipped to help her, or to be there for her to lean on. And that would definitely feel like a slap.

Edited August 28, 2014 by Bitterswete

[Spartan Girl]

One thing I hated about Buffy in this episode, was her saying to Xander that she couldn't go to him after running a sword through Angel.  That's a slap to the face of Xander's friendship.  Yeah he's let his feelings about Angel be known, but he's also always been there for Buffy.  He wouldn't have been celebrating that Buffy did that, he would have been supportive.

 

Gee, his "I'm sorry your honey was a vampire" crack was just the epitome of support.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I think part of what upset everyone was Buffy didn't give them a chance to be there for them. She just seemed to assume that none of them could possibly be equipped to help her, or to be there for her to lean on. And that would definitely feel like a slap.

Oh, it was totally a slap, IMO. The fact that she doesn't even consider that their lives went on without her despite how hurt they must have been speaks to exactly how much she thought about their feelings, which is apparently not at all. And then she's willing to let an overheard remark send her packing again, because clearly them not gathering around her like puppies who are glad to see their owner again means they don't care. Like they stopped existing when she left, but hey, now she's back so they can "live" again. It's just gross.

 

Gee, his "I'm sorry your honey was a vampire" crack was just the epitome of support.

See the above. Given how little consideration Buffy gave anyone's feelings but her own, if I had been Xander I'd have said something worse than that. Because it really does make me want to slap her until her self-absorbed head explodes.

[Bitterswete]

Gee, his "I'm sorry your honey was a vampire" crack was just the epitome of support.

 

He said that when everyone was already upset and venting about Buffy running away, which is a totally different context than if Buffy had stuck around, and her friend were able to offer their support.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

See I can understand her not going to Xander, he was the number one cheerleader for her to go kill Angel, so I can understand her not going to him. It's pretty glaring how he's absent in theFaith Hope and Trick scene when she finally tells Giles and Willow that Willow's spell worked and how she had to kill Angel, Xander isn't there. She never talks about her relationship with Angel with Xander, she cries with Willow or talks with Giles about it but never Xander.

Here's the thing about that.

 

Yes, Xander didn't like Angel, but I'm going to need a really good explanation as to why he shouldn't have wanted Angelus dead. If you notice, Xander was also a 'cheerleader 'for Willow to find a cure later in the season when Faith poisoned Angel, and at no point does he express glee that Captain Forehead might die. This idea that he "wanted Angel dead at any cost" Makes. No. Sense, IMO. He does say "I was the first one to say that that guy was bad news" but that was when Angelus was galloping all over Sunnydale most likely killing people while Buffy angsted, because wah Angel. Why exactly is it a bad thing to say that its bad news that a psychopathic monster is running around on a killing spree and should be taken down post haste?

[Jediknight]

He said that when everyone was already upset and venting about Buffy running away, which is a totally different context than if Buffy had stuck around, and her friend were able to offer their support.

Exactly, and notice how after "Innocence" he was there helping Buffy, he didn't treat her like crap for Angelus.  Like I mentioned, in "Phases" he even comforted her after Theresa attacked her and made a comment about Angel.  So a Xander that hasn't had anger building up would have been there for Buffy.  Her disappearing for 3 months, caused anger to build up, and at the party Buffy was about to run away again, and he only jumped in to defend Joyce.  Everything that had been building for months exploded at that point, and I don't think you can use that party to show the character's real selves.

[DAngelus]

Buffy is guilty of confusing the specific and the general here.  Yes, if she and Xander are not going to agree on whether "Angel needs to die"; when he's stating that restoring Angel's soul is stupid because Angel can't be forgiven (and because the curse has proven breakable and shouldn't be trusted again, and because maybe shoving Liam's soul back inside a demonic killing machine isn't exactly fair to Liam, either, not that Xander makes those points), then he's not going to be the one Buffy should turn to over how she had to kill resouled Angel, nope.

 

But…so what?  Why should "Xander wouldn't understand how I feel" become "nobody understands how I feel", much less "I can't trust any of my friends to help me".  Xander isn't everybody in the room, and that one moment of Buffy needing support over killing Angel isn't the entirety of her relationship with Xander, anyhow.  So he won't be the most sympathetic about your Angel-angst, boo-hoo-hoo…well, that's what you've got Willow for.  And by the way, he was the one person who probably did the most to make sure you're not wanted on a murder rap (there were two people in the Library who could tell the cops that "Buffy didn't kill Kendra, it was this gang on PCP" and Xander was the one who wasn't in a coma at the time), so it's not as though he's completely useless.

 

But Buffy is all too willing to hit below the belt, to use Xander's feelings for her as an excuse for not taking his points seriously (she tries this again in Revelations, when she flat-out accuses him of jealousy), and as a way to divert the issue away from how she hurt people (Joyce, Willow) that she can't belittle in this way.  He's such a wonderful scapegoat;  just turn the whole argument into "Xander isn't worthy of dating me" and everything is back on safe ground.  And hey, we can make fun of his silly code-name, too! Sigh.

 

I would really like Buffy a whole lot better if she didn't act as though her "specialness" gave her the right to dismiss everyone who isn't currently Buffy, even if she knows what she did was wrong (as Buffy herself says) and even if they're actually on her side, as Cordelia is, even though Buffy doesn't seem ready to hear it.  I mean, I know "I'm Buffy, freak of nature" sounds mean, but it's nothing Buffy hasn't said about herself; the whole "put yourself in Buffy's shoes" speech is just evaluations Buffy has made about herself, her attraction to the equally-isolated Angel, and her guilt over his murders, but it's so easy for her to think of herself as "better" than Cordelia (yup, Willow's been rubbing off on Buffy…and not in a good way) that she just shuts Cordy down, even though CC's message was the very "she was an idiot, but so what?  She's sorry, she's back, let it go" that Buffy herself probably wants to express on some level.  But of course Buffy can't essentially say "shut up and deal" to X/J/W when she's unwilling to shut up and deal with their hurt feelings, so that may be why she tells Cordelia to "get out of my shoes" here.  A pity, because now I'm imagining Cordelia finishing up by telling Buffy "Look, it sucks that they're upset, but just deal with it, okay?  Nobody actually wants you to leave again.  Except me, because you're just too much drama." Oh, well.

 

Really, Willow said it so well upstairs:

 

 

BUFFY:  I'm just trying to make things easier.

WILLOW:  For who?

 

Yes, it will be easier for Buffy if she just rides off to Martyrdom Island all on her Oh-So-Special Angst Express, again.  Don't bother to deal with the mess of the "little people" and their petty grievances, they just don't understand.  

 

 

BUFFY:  Sorry that I had to leave, but you don't know what I was going through.

WILLOW: Well, i'd like to.

 

That's all it is, she'd like to know.  She'd like to be included, rather than your unilaterally deciding that "you wouldn't understand".  As the Real Buffy once said when Ford tried pulling that crap on her, "I don't need to understand, I just need to know".  Willow doesn't have to have the exact same feelings you do, because Willow isn't you.  Nobody is exactly you, so nobody will "understand" as perfectly as you want.  That doesn't matter.  Everybody is different, everybody has their own piece of the puzzle.  Xander isn't Willow, who isn't Cordelia, who isn't Oz, who isn't Giles.  But they are all important and can be of help.  If you let them.  

 

Or, you can decide that your uniqueness is just that much more unique than every other unique person in the world, and so you can just reduce the people in your life to a conglomerate "my friends" and dismiss them all at once; i.e., "I love my friends, but…being a Slayer, there's a burden we can't share."  (News flash, future Buff;  Faith isn't you, either. "Being a Slayer" means something different to you than it does to her.  She's just as non-understandy as all the people downstairs you're dismissing with that line.)  It's not about Being the Only One, it's about recognizing that everyone is an Only One.  So stop thinking your Angst is Angsty-er than theirs, ok?

 

(No, I don't know how I started talking to Buffy;  no, I don't know how to stop.  So…stopping now.)

[ladyrott]

I agree with everything you said D'Angelus.  While I totally agree with Buffy's "nobody can understand" schtick being ridiculous, I DID find it pretty true to life.  As I dimly recall, being a teenage girl means ALL of your problems are life and death, nobody can understand you and everything is about you.  In Buffy's case, her problems were bigger than the average teenager's issues (as far as I know, none of my boyfriends were serial killers) so to me it is even MORE understandable that she would act and react the way she did.  As much flak as Dead Man's Party gets, I love the episode for bringing the gang back together AND allowing the characters to basically tell Buffy what they thought of her.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

I'm going to hop over to Buffy's thread, because my response will be about her in general rather than the episode.

[mrspidey]

So I'm doing a big Buffy rewatch and just got done with this one. Don't really like it. I'm mainly on board with the "everyone's an asshole" but what really annoys me is how their issues got resolved, or rather didn't get resolved. They have their big group discussion then Zombies interrupt and after that everyone is back in happy friend town because reasons. 

I really wanted them to finish talking it out. 

[Jazzy24]

On 1/26/2017 at 3:51 PM, mrspidey said:

So I'm doing a big Buffy rewatch and just got done with this one. Don't really like it. I'm mainly on board with the "everyone's an asshole" but what really annoys me is how their issues got resolved, or rather didn't get resolved. They have their big group discussion then Zombies interrupt and after that everyone is back in happy friend town because reasons. 

I really wanted them to finish talking it out. 

The writers always did this when writing the Scoobies, they never let them finish talking it out. 

[Smad]

The only thing I like about the episode is Giles. And Buffy, kinda. The rest of it though...URGH.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

What's so annoyingly ironic about it is that, pretty much right after the big blow up in DMP, Buffy flips Xander's script from Becoming and elects not to say anything about Angel being spat out of a portal because of reasons. I guess. Because lying is always so helpful.

[SparedTurkey]

Yes because after their behaviour I'd be inclined to forget everything and trust them all again if I were Buffy.

And it was Angel that came back out of the portal, not Angelus so...

[AllyB]

We have to remember when assessing Buffy's actions is that Buffy is basing her opinion of what her friends want from her on the lie Xander told her before her 'final' confrontation with Angelus. Willow, Cordy and Oz were preparing to once again attempt to re-ensoul Angel and Willow asks Xander to go tell Buffy about what they are doing. Xander starts to tell her then changes his mind and tells her Willow wants her to kill Angelus. It was very much this that drove Buffy away from her friends until DMP and still carries into their friendship for years after. Buffy was at an incredibly low point as she walked into face Angelus and having Xander tell that Willow wants Angelus dead would have solidified her guilt and misery. It would have made it so very, very much harder for her to let Willow in about just how very, very heartbroken she was.

If Xander had told her the truth it would have been different. She would have gone into that fight with a small degree of hope that might have allowed her to buy time for Willow to complete her spell before Angelus opened the gates to hell. And even if she failed and had to kill an ensouled Angel in the manner she did, she would have known that Willow in spite of the attack on the library, Willow was still willing to go as far as she did just to have her back. She'd know Willow didn't blame her for her injuries and would have sympathised entirely with her heartbreak. If Xander hadn't lied, Buffy probably wouldn't have ran away. And frustratingly it's never, ever addressed apart from a couple of throw-away lines in the fourth season.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

Xander starts to tell her then changes his mind and tells her Willow wants her to kill Angelus. It was very much this that drove Buffy away from her friends until DMP

I really doubt that - Buffy was just as close to Willow in S3 as she was in S2 and almost as close to Xander, even though in Selfless she claims she thought Willow had really instructed Xander to tell "the Lie". Buffy left because she was mourning Angel, the police wanted to arrest her and her mother kicked her out. It's possible that Xander's infamous lie played a role but I really disagree that it was a major role. And even if we assume it was, then Buffy is a none too bright because it should have been quite obvious to her that Xander had lied, so blaming Willow or anybody else makes precious little sense.

And in any event I still don't see how stalling for time would have ended up any better for Buffy in Becoming Part II than it did in Becoming Part I. It would have been nigh on impossible to prevent Angel from rushing to Acathla... unless Buffy let Spike finish him off.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Jack Shaftoe

[angel1008]

When Buffy saw what her friends had gone thru, plus killing Angel and her mom throwing her out, she saw her role in all of it.  She felt that her decisions caused them pain, so she felt it better to leave than to stay. 

And, yes, they CAN'T seem to live without her. 

Spoiler

Flash forward to S6, when they brought her back from the dead, and how they never for once thought how SHE would feel.  They thought she was in a hell dimension, but they were so selfish in their motives that they brought her back not realizing the consequences.  Then, to leave Spike out of it, who fought by their side all year!

But, I see why Buffy could not confide in Xander.  He always resented Angel because he wanted Buffy for himself, and he also lied and said Willow said to "kick his ass". 

[Dee]

Xander was pretty busy juggling Cordelia & Willow to be overly concerned with chasing Buffy.

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 2:57 AM, Mya Stone said:

 

There's really nothing I can add to @Sarah D. Bunting 's awesome breakdown of this episode. 

Except for this: 

 

Can we please talk about the elephant sized too blonde highlights and why anyone in their right mind thought it was a good idea? This new look on the Buffster is a cry for help. It's just screaming "Deep condition me. I'm nothing without Angel. I'm channeling Spike in my highlights. Someone....please...."

 

Maybe the episode should have been renamed "Dead Hair Party." 

I must say that passed me by. But how pretty SMG looks!

 

On ‎11‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 8:53 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

 

I came to call Dead Man's Party 'The One Where Everyone's An Asshole', but the bolded part is the root of the other assholism that takes place in the ep, IMO. Yes, Xander and Willow were ill-tempered and not gracious when Buffy returned, but the flip side of that it kind of was something she did to them when she left. I said this in her character thread, so I won't repeat the whole thing here, but she could have thought enough of them to actually, I don't know, say that she was in pain and needed help when she came back after three months of silence. She neither called nor wrote, and in fact got a job waiting tables under an alias while she was gone, so I think she was putting things in place so that she'd never have to go back. I don't love how Willow and Xander acted, but I love how Buffy acted to begin with even less. It's the fact that she didn't even trust them enough to try talking, either instead of leaving or after she returned, @DAngelus said it in another thread, but I'd also like to think that the sight of Willow in that wheelchair is what makes her run away. However, it plays out on screen like the beginning of Buffy's (very long) "Me, me, me!" phase.

Yeah, just one letter to say 'I'm okay' wouldn't have been too much to ask. 

 

On ‎13‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 11:29 PM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

@KatWay, 

 

Joyce mentions that she was on the phone with the superintendent of schools,who seems more reasonable than Snyder, "that nasty little horrid, bigoted, rodent-man." Then she says that "Miss Porter's" accepts late admissions, to which Buffy responds, "A girls' school? So now it's jackets, kilts, and no boys? Care to throw in a little foot-binding?" Joyce very quietly tells her, "Buffy, you made some bad choices. You just might have to live with some consequences." The transcript says, and I quote, Buffy looks down at the island, knowing that her mom is right.

As for the murder charge, that's apparently miraculously taken care of by the time she gets back, and not even jackhole Snyder brings it up. If she was still wanted by the (deeply stupid) cops, wouldn't they have been at the house to slap the cuffs on her once it became clear that she was back?

 

 

I think Buffy in uniform at an all-girls school would have been a dream come true for slash fiction/schoolgirl fetishists, not that this show lack either.

As for your second point, you have to put yourself in the place of the SDPD, it's not that Buffy couldn't convince them of her innocence, it's that she doesn't have 8 hours to spend doing so whilst the world is in peril. 

On ‎28‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 8:51 AM, DAngelus said:

Exactly.  Buffy spends the episode acting like the Scoobies are solipsistic creations, that they don't exist when she isn't there.  The perfect example is when Willow is opening her heart to Buffy in Buffy's room and Buffy is like "I know you all missed me—" and Will is like "No, I mean, my life!"  And I've seen people write that Willow is being selfish, that she's complaining that Buffy wasn't there to hold her hand about Dating a Werewolf and Exploring Magic and so on, when poor St. Buffy had to KILL HER TRUE LOVE (not that he's actually going to stay "dead") and how much of a bitch is Willow?

More interesting when you consider how Willow reacts when;

Spoiler

her true love is murdered. 

On ‎28‎/‎08‎/‎2014 at 10:53 AM, ladyrott said:

To be fair, I don't think Buffy's packing to leave in the middle of that party had much, if anything, to do with how her friends were acting.  When she heard her mom say it was better before she came back, it was just too much for her, I think.  I believe she thought about Joyce while she was gone.  I will even go so far as to say I think she might have realized that her mother wasn't seriously throwing her out of the house at the end of Becoming II.  Her mom was understandably upset at the time and Buffy didn't give her a chance to deal with things.  To me, her returning home  was a sign that she WAS ready to acknowledge that Joyce was just upset that night.  And then, when she heard her telling Pat (I HATED that woman and was never so glad to see someone get dead) what essentially sounded like she wished Buffy hadn't come back, it pushed her over the edge and she started packing again.

I like Pat, nice to see Joyce has a life outside motherhood and that she had some company whilst Buffy was away;

Spoiler

aside from Dawn. 

 

 

On ‎26‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 10:51 PM, mrspidey said:

So I'm doing a big Buffy rewatch and just got done with this one. Don't really like it. I'm mainly on board with the "everyone's an asshole" but what really annoys me is how their issues got resolved, or rather didn't get resolved. They have their big group discussion then Zombies interrupt and after that everyone is back in happy friend town because reasons. 

I really wanted them to finish talking it out. 

But I liked that aspect, one of the reasons the Scoobs are so close is their shared mission, without it Buffy would probably just be a Cordette and Willow and Xander just hanging with Jesse (although I like to think Woz would still have happened). 

On ‎30‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 6:08 PM, Smad said:

The only thing I like about the episode is Giles. And Buffy, kinda. The rest of it though...URGH.

Not even 'Nighthawk'? Or a party that's 'chock full of hoot'?

 

On ‎03‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 5:55 AM, Dee said:

Xander was pretty busy juggling Cordelia & Willow to be overly concerned with chasing Buffy.

In fairness

Spoiler

he's not juggling them yet, not until Homecoming.

Dead Man's Party

The Good; Cordy's outfit, Buffy's homecoming. Joyce's friend Pat. Jonathon. The attack of the undead, another Sunnydale High cheerleader seemingly amongst them. Giles's 'Americans' line and his hotwiring the car. Oz's party definitions. 'Ripper' threatening Snyder

The Bad; Before Giles arrives the house is full of zombies, after he gets there they all disappear? Also would Joyce really choose to hang that horrible mask in the bedroom, even if it is art?

Best line; Oz; "And a hootenanny. Well that's chock full of hoot. With just a little bit of nanny" (How effortlessly cool is Seth Green in this scene?)

Whedon Clichés; Character death; So long Pat, we hardly knew you. But at least the actress goes on to be Earl's mum in 'My Name is Earl'

Tied up; none although when Xander says he's tied up tomorrow Cordy says 'You wish'??????

Kinky dinky; Buffy is aghast that Joyce wants her to go to private school where she'll have to wear a schoolgirl's uniform. Well it worked for Britney. Cordy says that Xander turned her on with the whole 'Nighthawk' vamphunter look (she also seemed to like him in his army gear in Halloween) Her party dress has to be seen to be believed. Also see 'Tied Up'

Calling Captain Subtext; this time it's Oz and Cordy who end up in the closet together

What the fanficcers thought; Buffy in a St Trinians style all-girls school popular amongst the slashficcers

Questions and observations;  The confrontation between Joyce and Buffy is really long overdue and Joyce really does have a point. Willow is studying to be witch. Jonathon gets in on the demon fighting for the first time as do Joyce and Devon. After this it's business as usual and we're glad to get back to the status quo in Sunnydale. Joyce's tipple is schnapps and she has a book club (which she later attends in season 5). She also skis to judge by the weapons Oz and Cordy use in the closet. Xander calls himself Nighthawk on patrol, they seem to be pretty good at the vamp staking, having killed at least 6. I'd love to see if they handled any other supernatural threats during the summer. The Mayor is mentioned again and the first appearance of the Expresso Pump. . Presumably the Watcher's Council used their influence to help get Buffy back in school (see also Checkpoint). Willow is still practising witchcraft and growing more proficient.

Spoiler

So where is Dawn in all of this? In the bedroom or under the stairs with Oz and CC? Snyder advises Buffy to get a job in fast food which she eventually does. Cordy refers to Buffy as a freak but she'll later become one herself on Angel

6/10, good but not brilliant

[SosaLola]

The Lie should have came out during this episode or Revelations and gotten dealt with. Fans are still furious about it but I'm very sure that if it came up during the beginning of S3 and we saw Buffy being upset with Xander and saw him explain and apologize, no one would even mention it. The lack of consequences is the reason fans are still angry about The Lie.  

[Joe Hellandback]

6 hours ago, SosaLola said:

The Lie should have came out during this episode or Revelations and gotten dealt with. Fans are still furious about it but I'm very sure that if it came up during the beginning of S3 and we saw Buffy being upset with Xander and saw him explain and apologize, no one would even mention it. The lack of consequences is the reason fans are still angry about The Lie.  

You do have a point, it (or Selfless would have been the ideal time really) but I think it makes the series more realistic if some things are left unresolved (and another point against Normal Again).  

[Dee]

Why should Xander have to suffer 'consequences' for "The Lie?" Buffy didn't suffer any for hiding Angel.

[Jack Shaftoe]

On 7/2/2018 at 12:13 PM, SosaLola said:

The lack of consequences is the reason fans are still angry about The Lie.  

That's a funny way of spelling shipping goggles. ;)

No, seriously - what consequences? Angel murders hundreds of people and

Spoiler

is accepted back into the fold with nary a protest,

Xander omits endangering Buffy's mission to save the entire world on the off chance of Angel being saved and he needs to suffer consequences? Explanation - sure, I still can't believe Buffy would be dumb enough to assume Willow would tell Xander to say "Kick his ass" then cast the spell anyway but consequences?

Quote

Fans are still furious about it but I'm very sure that if it came up during the beginning of S3 and we saw Buffy being upset with Xander and saw him explain and apologize, no one would even mention it.

Many would still be harping on about it to this very day, like the people who say Xander is as much of a rapist as Spike is because of what he tried to do in The Pack. I myself have complained a lot about certain characters' actions even though in show they had a redemption arc or just apologized and everything was forgiven.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Jack Shaftoe

[Halting Hex]

Why should Buffy (rationally) be upset about "The Lie", anyhow?  Angel was doomed the moment he got the sword out of Acathla, which was before Buffy was able to dispose of the Unusually-Tenacious Henchvamp and engage Angel directly.  How would she have changed tactics if she knew Willow was trying the spell again, exactly?  If anything, having that knowledge in Part 1 made Buffy more passive, simply trying to delay.  That wouldn't have changed Angel's fate one whit.

Now, if Buffy had furiously attacked Angel and staked him, or if she'd decapitated Angel the way she nearly did before That Pesky Soul came flying back home, then she might have had cause to get angry at Xander's lie of omission.  But she didn't, so she doesn't.  JMO.

Edited July 3, 2018 by Halting Hex

[SosaLola]

On 7/3/2018 at 2:35 AM, Dee said:

Why should Xander have to suffer 'consequences' for "The Lie?" Buffy didn't suffer any for hiding Angel.

Buffy got an intervention and we have seen Giles be extremely upset with her. Xander and Faith went to murder Angel behind her back. In the end of the episode, it was Buffy who tries to patch things up with Xander. 

None of that happened with The Lie. I don't need to see Xander get tortured, just to see Buffy and Willow be upset with him and Xander explaining himself. It could just be a one episode thing where Buffy and Willow eventually understand why he did it and forgive him. If that happened in an early S3 episode, I'm very sure The Lie wouldn't have been capitalized like that. 

19 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Many would still be harping on about it to this very day, like the people who say Xander is as much of a rapist as Spike is because of what he tried to do in The Pack. I myself have complained a lot about certain characters' actions even though in show they had a redemption arc or just apologized and everything was forgiven.

Maybe it won't make a difference in fans' angry reaction, but I would have liked to see it acknowledged and not swept under the rug. I personally would have liked to see more of the Xander stuff acknowledged. 

People making a big deal about The Pack annoys me! Xander was the victim in the episode. His body was violated without his consent. If he decided to fake amnesia to deal with that traumatic experience, it was his choice and he had every right to make it. 

[Dee]

Buffy sabotages her intervention, ignores her friends until she offers them an extremely weak apology after almost getting them killed via Angel again and Giles issues with her don't even last beyond a single episode.

Xander and Faith do NOT go to murder Angel behind Buffy's back. Faith makes a fairly rational decision to eliminate a massive potential threat with Xander's assistance. When Xander realizes that Giles is hurt,he pulls back to reassess the situation while Faith rashly chooses to continue the mission.

Neither Buffy nor Willow have reason to be upset about 'The Lie.'

Willow was not a competent enough commodity by the point of the re-ensouling spell to justify her having any anger at Xander, and as Halting Hex mentioned, Angel was doomed before Buffy even engages him in battle. So how would her knowing Willow's message, change the outcome of the Acathla debacle?

Edited July 4, 2018 by Dee

[Fool to cry]

This episode was painful but definitely preferable to them lingering on unresolved tension and anger for a half dozen or more episodes into the season. Get the Scooby Gang to hash out their issues immediately and get rid of their old angst so they can be ready to face the season's Big Bad and deal with new and different angst!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎03‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 12:35 AM, Dee said:

Why should Xander have to suffer 'consequences' for "The Lie?" Buffy didn't suffer any for hiding Angel.

Very well pointed out although you could say that Buffy does suffer the gang's wrath and the consequences for Xander (the end of the world) compared to Buffy (Angel kept in chains and obviously unable to hurt anyone) is evident. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎03‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 12:32 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

That's a funny way of spelling shipping goggles. ;)

No, seriously - what consequences? Angel murders hundreds of people and

  Hide contents

is accepted back into the fold with nary a protest,

Xander omits endangering Buffy's mission to save the entire world on the off chance of Angel being saved and he needs to suffer consequences? Explanation - sure, I still can't believe Buffy would be dumb enough to assume Willow would tell Xander to say "Kick his ass" then cast the spell anyway but consequences?

Many would still be harping on about it to this very day, like the people who say Xander is as much of a rapist as Spike is because of what he tried to do in The Pack. I myself have complained a lot about certain characters' actions even though in show they had a redemption arc or just apologized and everything was forgiven.

ANGELUS murders DOZENS of people and the gang don't exactly embrace him with open arms. Angel is no more responsible for what Angelus does than Giles as Ripper in Band Candy,

Spoiler

Willow is for the folks VampWillow kills, Spike without his soul or Buffy under the nerd's potion in Normal Again

. Even Willow only accepts him back after he saves her. Plus remember Willow was tight with Jenny and loved Giles? I think people are forgiven in the Buffyverse partly because of the overwhelming threat they face and the fact they need to bond together the Battle of Barking Creek effect;

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolph_Malan#Battle_of_Barking_Creek

On ‎03‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 11:00 PM, Halting Hex said:

Why should Buffy (rationally) be upset about "The Lie", anyhow?  Angel was doomed the moment he got the sword out of Acathla, which was before Buffy was able to dispose of the Unusually-Tenacious Henchvamp and engage Angel directly.  How would she have changed tactics if she knew Willow was trying the spell again, exactly?  If anything, having that knowledge in Part 1 made Buffy more passive, simply trying to delay.  That wouldn't have changed Angel's fate one whit.

Now, if Buffy had furiously attacked Angel and staked him, or if she'd decapitated Angel the way she nearly did before That Pesky Soul came flying back home, then she might have had cause to get angry at Xander's lie of omission.  But she didn't, so she doesn't.  JMO.

That's with the benefit of hindsight though, as far as Buffy knew it was life or death and Xander took the decision by himself rather than letting her know the facts. Many characters practice deception for the greater good, if Xander had still been lusting after Buffy rather than involved with CC it would have been different.   

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 7:44 AM, SosaLola said:

Buffy got an intervention and we have seen Giles be extremely upset with her. Xander and Faith went to murder Angel behind her back. In the end of the episode, it was Buffy who tries to patch things up with Xander. 

None of that happened with The Lie. I don't need to see Xander get tortured, just to see Buffy and Willow be upset with him and Xander explaining himself. It could just be a one episode thing where Buffy and Willow eventually understand why he did it and forgive him. If that happened in an early S3 episode, I'm very sure The Lie wouldn't have been capitalized like that. 

Maybe it won't make a difference in fans' angry reaction, but I would have liked to see it acknowledged and not swept under the rug. I personally would have liked to see more of the Xander stuff acknowledged. 

People making a big deal about The Pack annoys me! Xander was the victim in the episode. His body was violated without his consent. If he decided to fake amnesia to deal with that traumatic experience, it was his choice and he had every right to make it. 

They didn't go to 'murder' him, they sought to kill him because they thought he was evil again. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎04‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 1:50 PM, Dee said:

Buffy sabotages her intervention, ignores her friends until she offers them an extremely weak apology after almost getting them killed via Angel again and Giles issues with her don't even last beyond a single episode.

Xander and Faith do NOT go to murder Angel behind Buffy's back. Faith makes a fairly rational decision to eliminate a massive potential threat with Xander's assistance. When Xander realizes that Giles is hurt,he pulls back to reassess the situation while Faith rashly chooses to continue the mission.

Neither Buffy nor Willow have reason to be upset about 'The Lie.'

Willow was not a competent enough commodity by the point of the re-ensouling spell to justify her having any anger at Xander, and as Halting Hex mentioned, Angel was doomed before Buffy even engages him in battle. So how would her knowing Willow's message, change the outcome of the Acathla debacle?

 

That's not true, I mean look at

Spoiler

Giles' actions with Angel in Amends?

He is more welcoming to Angel

Spoiler

in Pangs

but that was due to his love for Buffy, he was prepared to put his own feelings aside, much like Buffy trying to make up with Jenny due to her love for Giles. 

 

9 hours ago, Fool to cry said:

This episode was painful but definitely preferable to them lingering on unresolved tension and anger for a half dozen or more episodes into the season. Get the Scooby Gang to hash out their issues immediately and get rid of their old angst so they can be ready to face the season's Big Bad and deal with new and different angst!

Again it's the sort of thing they do in face of adversity, be he ne'r so vile, this day shall gentle his condition. 

Okay, next up, Revelations!

Edited July 5, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[Halting Hex]

51 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

That's with the benefit of hindsight though

Given that Buffy would be judging Xander after the fact, why shouldn't she employ hindsight?   I'm not saying she should give him a pass because

Spoiler

Angel comes back from hell and "that all worked out okay"

I'm saying that even if, as of right here in 3.02, she knew that Xander kept his knowledge of Willow's attempting the spell from her, she might be upset that he didn't trust her judgement, but she'd be hard-pressed to cite any specific consequences.

"Dammit, Xander! If you'd told me, I would have ______ !'  Fill in the blank, please.

Did he cause potential consequences, such as Buffy being over-aggressive and turning Angel to dust permanently,  or conversely, her being so shocked at Angel's resouling that she was unable to send him to hell and Acathla swallowed the world?  Yes, indeed.  But Buffy navigated all those obstacles.  

So she might question his methods, but there's nothing much she can complain about as far as the outcomes.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Quote

ANGELUS murders DOZENS of people and the gang don't exactly embrace him with open arms. Angel is no more responsible for what Angelus does than Giles as Ripper in Band Candy,

Angelus as the name to be used for Soulless!Angel is some stupid dichotomy they came up for Angel's own show, in BtVS everyone called him Angel, even when he was soulless and so do I. And we don't know how many people he killed since we didn't follow his life 24/7 but considering he was evil for almost half a year I very much doubt he killed less than 100 people. In any event dozens of people is far too many as well, so it makes no difference for my argument.

Also, regardless of Angel's responsibility, he is far more likely to revert to being souless than Giles to become Ripper (who is relatively harmless anyway).

Spoiler

They could (or rather) should have discussed some measure to ensure the loophole in his curse wouldn't be activated again but that would have made too much sense, I guess. Or rather, the writers needed a reason to break up Buffy/Angel, so stupidity was the only option.

[Halting Hex]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

in BtVS everyone called him Angel

Technically, Spike generally calls him "Angelus", even when ensouled.  Must enjoy mocking his sire by using the formal Latin name.

Of course, Spikey pronounces it as in "Los Angeles", where Darla/the Master/Jenny all say "An-JEALOUS", so maybe Spike isn't even saying the name correctly, never mind the usage issue.  But Jenny is the only one who attempts the fannish souled/unsouled dichotomy, in Innocence:

Quote

JENNY:  He's not Angel any more.  Are you?

ANGEL (hand on Willow's throat):  Wrong!  I am Angel.  At last!

The killer is always there, whether or not That Pesky Soul is inhibiting it. So I have no problem holding Soulful Angel responsible for the crimes of his demon.  JMO.

Edited July 5, 2018 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

23 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Given that Buffy would be judging Xander after the fact, why shouldn't she employ hindsight?   I'm not saying she should give him a pass because

  Hide contents

Angel comes back from hell and "that all worked out okay"

I'm saying that even if, as of right here in 3.02, she knew that Xander kept his knowledge of Willow's attempting the spell from her, she might be upset that he didn't trust her judgement, but she'd be hard-pressed to cite any specific consequences.

"Dammit, Xander! If you'd told me, I would have ______ !'  Fill in the blank, please.

Did he cause potential consequences, such as Buffy being over-aggressive and turning Angel to dust permanently,  or conversely, her being so shocked at Angel's resouling that she was unable to send him to hell and Acathla swallowed the world?  Yes, indeed.  But Buffy navigated all those obstacles.  

So she might question his methods, but there's nothing much she can complain about as far as the outcomes.

You have to balance the potential benefit vs the potential gains, Xander didn't want Buffy going in there with the slightest doubts given the stakes. 

23 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Angelus as the name to be used for Soulless!Angel is some stupid dichotomy they came up for Angel's own show, in BtVS everyone called him Angel, even when he was soulless and so do I. And we don't know how many people he killed since we didn't follow his life 24/7 but considering he was evil for almost half a year I very much doubt he killed less than 100 people. In any event dozens of people is far too many as well, so it makes no difference for my argument.

Also, regardless of Angel's responsibility, he is far more likely to revert to being souless than Giles to become Ripper (who is relatively harmless anyway).

  Hide contents

They could (or rather) should have discussed some measure to ensure the loophole in his curse wouldn't be activated again but that would have made too much sense, I guess. Or rather, the writers needed a reason to break up Buffy/Angel, so stupidity was the only option.

I agree the writers came up with some pretty twisted logic in regard to the whole Angel/Angelus issue especially in 

Spoiler

Eternity with the mickey finn

19 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

Technically, Spike generally calls him "Angelus", even when ensouled.  Must enjoy mocking his sire by using the formal Latin name.

Of course, Spikey pronounces it as in "Los Angeles", where Darla/the Master/Jenny all say "An-JEALOUS", so maybe Spike isn't even saying the name correctly, never mind the usage issue.  But Jenny is the only one who attempts the fannish souled/unsouled dichotomy, in Innocence:

The killer is always there, whether or not That Pesky Soul is inhibiting it. So I have no problem holding Soulful Angel responsible for the crimes of his demon.  JMO.

 

 

I don't buy that, any more than Hyena Xander or Bad Eggs possessed Giles/Willow, just the effects on them were nothing compared to the hundreds of years for Angel. 

Just posted, Lover's Walk.

Edited July 6, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[lembergwatcher]

Quote

Giles: Sh-sh-shouldn't you stay with your mother, perhaps, Buffy? I mean, you must have--

Joyce: Please, no. I, it's fine. She can go with you.

Giles: A-actually, she can't. Um . . . (to Buffy) you're not allowed on school property.

Buffy: Oh. (smiles ironically)

Man, I just wanna be there and see how the Sunnydale High is going to enforce the "Buffyban".

Will I see Principal Snyder standing in the schoolhouse door trying to block Buffy's entry - just like George C. Wallace, the Democratic Governor of Alabama, did towards two black students at the University of Alabama more than 35 years prior to the events depicted in DMP? Considering that Buffy is the super-powered girl and Snyder is just "a tiny, impotent Nazi with a bug up his butt the size of an emu", I can only imagine what the outcome will be.

I mean, the security is almost non-existent at the SHS: anyone or anything can enter freely at any time of the day or night. Would you like some bloody massacre in the Audio-Visual room? The gang of vampires roaming around the school property at parent-teacher night? Some creepy guy of non-school-age trying to suffocate a student or snapping teacher's neck? Or the "gang on PCP" attacking the librarian and a few students doing magic at the school library? The security personnel is nowhere in sight  99% of the time. The night watchman trying to find out the source of the noise in a closet in Bad Eggs has so far been the only manifestation of the post's existence at school.

Yes, I understand our Buffy most likely won't charge straight in like a bull in a china shop. She is still commited to study along with her friends and therefore wants to re-enroll legally. But who's exactly gonna stop the Slayer from entering the school in case she decides to defy Principal's orders? She's a rebel, after all.

Edited January 6, 2019 by lembergwatcher

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎06‎/‎01‎/‎2019 at 11:40 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Man, I just wanna be there and see how the Sunnydale High is going to enforce the "Buffyban".

Will I see Principal Snyder standing in the schoolhouse door trying to block Buffy's entry - just like George C. Wallace, the Democratic Governor of Alabama, did towards two black students at the University of Alabama more than 35 years prior to the events depicted in DMP? Considering that Buffy is the super-powered girl and Snyder is just "a tiny, impotent Nazi with a bug up his butt the size of an emu", I can only imagine what the outcome will be.

I mean, the security is almost non-existent at the SHS: anyone or anything can enter freely at any time of the day or night. Would you like some bloody massacre in the Audio-Visual room? The gang of vampires roaming around the school property at parent-teacher night? Some creepy guy of non-school-age trying to suffocate a student or snapping teacher's neck? Or the "gang on PCP" attacking the librarian and a few students doing magic at the school library? The security personnel is nowhere in sight  99% of the time. The night watchman trying to find out the source of the noise in a closet in Bad Eggs has so far been the only manifestation of the post's existence at school.

Yes, I understand our Buffy most likely won't charge straight in like a bull in a china shop. She is still commited to study along with her friends and therefore wants to re-enroll legally. But who's exactly gonna stop the Slayer from entering the school in case she decides to defy Principal's orders? She's a rebel, after all.

True, people just seem to be able to walk in. Okay, acceptable for

Spoiler

Faith, everyone will think she's a pupil but does no one ever challenge Wes?

[Halting Hex]

Well, I hardly think that

Spoiler

Wesley is the strangest visitor Giles gets in the Library.  There's Mrs. Post (who makes at least two visits), there's Quentin Travers, and there's Magey McEcho.  If nobody notices this refugee from a Dungeons & Dragons game, I doubt a well-dressed and well-Brylcreem™ed Wesley is going to raise many eyebrows.

It could be argued that the parade of uninvited guests in the Library is a sign that Season 3 has gotten sloppy with its storytelling, sacrificing internal logic about an issue such as this.

 (Whereas, before, the only "questionable character" to visit Giles was Ethan, and that was on a Saturday.)  But it could just be more evidence that nobody goes to the Library, which gives most kids the wiggins, as Willow mentions in Welcome to the Hellmouth.

Spoiler

I actually think that Faith might find it harder to go incognito, as she tends to wander the halls, and she's a cleavagey slut-bomb walking around going "check me out:  I'm wicked cool, I'm 5x5".  (Or something like that…)  Seems to me eventually someone on staff might stop drooling and start wondering what Faith's doing on campus.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Halting Hex

[Joe Hellandback]

34 minutes ago, Halting Hex said:

Well, I hardly think that

  Hide contents

Wesley is the strangest visitor Giles gets in the Library.  There's Mrs. Post (who makes at least two visits), there's Quentin Travers, and there's Magey McEcho.  If nobody notices this refugee from a Dungeons & Dragons game, I doubt a well-dressed and well-Brylcreem™ed Wesley is going to raise many eyebrows.

It could be argued that the parade of uninvited guests in the Library is a sign that Season 3 has gotten sloppy with its storytelling, sacrificing internal logic about issue such as this.

 (Whereas, before, the only "questionable character" to visit Giles was Ethan, and that was on a Saturday.)  But it could just be more evidence that nobody goes to the Library, which gives most kids the wiggins, as Willow mentions in Welcome to the Hellmouth.

  Hide contents

I actually think that Faith might find it harder to go incognito, as she tends to wander the halls, and she's a cleavagey slut-bomb walking around going "check me out:  I'm wicked cool, I'm 5x5".  (Or something like that…)  Seems to me eventually someone on staff might stop drooling and start wondering what Faith's doing on campus.

But they'll hardly as her to leave?

[Halting Hex]

Quote

LIAM DUKE:  Actually, I think that Giles would be "company-plate people".

Lol, Brits sticking up for each other. 

Also noted from watching Liam's review:

Quote

WILLOW (breaking my Wiffy heart):  I didn't have anyone to talk to about all this scary life stuff.  And you were my best friend. [Emphasis added]

I've written before about how painful it is to me for Will to be referring to her friendship with Buffy in the past tense here.  But I only today realized the contrast between this and Willow enforcing the "past-tense rule" on Xander in Anne. (And, apparently, for most of the summer, given his familiarity with the concept.)  So the reason Willow won't let Xander think of Buffy as being of the past is because she's already thinking that way herself, in the depths of her abandoned heart?  Aww.

(And yes, possibly a bit hypocritical, then.  But Xander loves her enough [more than she even knows, as seen in Becoming, Part 2] to take it.)

I grant you this might simply have been a coincidence rather than Marti (here) deliberately echoing/contrasting with Joss (in 3.01).  But then again, Marti always said that Joss would edit and rewrite the others' scripts.

And it's not as if this is the only evidence that Joss may have had a hand in here, either:

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JOYCE (angry):  You just dumped this thing on me and you expected me to get it.  Well, guess what?  Mom's not perfect.  I handled it badly.

Gee…that sounds like more of the "Buffy's 'coming out' to Joyce about her Slayer-dom is a metaphor for coming out lesbian" theme, doesn't it?  Never noticed it in the flow of the episode, the way it's highlighted in the review when Liam cuts ahead to it.

Spoiler

And here I thought we didn't get more "Slayer=lesbian" subtext until next episode, with the "Slayer Pride Parade" line and the rainbow reflected in the glass and of course all the Buffy/Faith interaction, leading up to the "Hungry?"/"Starved" post-fight "wanna fuck?" implications.  Huh.

I grant you, this doesn't have to be Joss lending a Lez-Bro hand, given that Marti has two moms.  But Joss is the one who, when asked by lesbian journalist Emily Almond, said that they wouldn't be doing a "gay storyline" for Larry because "we already did one for Buffy", so…

Does this mean that Joss is intending the Wiffy-specific subtext here?  Probably not; he's never seemed interested in pushing that, truthfully.  (Willow has two boys in love with her at the moment, remember.)  It's just that the juxtaposition of the "something happened to Buffy when she went through puberty and it makes her different from most other girls, but it's a part of what she is, she's not just 'going through a phase', Joyce! FFS!" storyline and the "fractured-BFF" arc that drives a lot of the episode (with Buffy not really "back home" until she makes up with Willow, specifically), well, that gives those of us who are already suffering from confirmation bias even more confirmations.  I'm just saying.

On a lighter note, I noted that when Buffy dispatches Pat/Ovu Mobani, we cut to Joyce apparently beating on a now-vanished zombie with a baseball bat…while Xander and Willow watch from behind the far side of the bed.  I mean, cute Xillow moment, I suppose, but you're just going to hide and let Joyce face the danger?  No wonder Buffy barely stops to grab her lint brush if this is how you're gonna hang her mom out to dry.  I mean, seriously.

Ingrates. 😝

[lembergwatcher]

4 hours ago, Halting Hex said:

I mean, cute Xillow moment

Good observation.

But I wonder what did they tell Pat's family about the poor woman's whereabouts? And I hope Buffy & Joyce didn't have to bury the party guy, whose neck was snapped by zombie, in their backyard, right next to "Giles' cat".

[Joe Hellandback]

On 3/23/2020 at 7:52 PM, Halting Hex said:

Lol, Brits sticking up for each other. 

Also noted from watching Liam's review:

I've written before about how painful it is to me for Will to be referring to her friendship with Buffy in the past tense here.  But I only today realized the contrast between this and Willow enforcing the "past-tense rule" on Xander in Anne. (And, apparently, for most of the summer, given his familiarity with the concept.)  So the reason Willow won't let Xander think of Buffy as being of the past is because she's already thinking that way herself, in the depths of her abandoned heart?  Aww.

(And yes, possibly a bit hypocritical, then.  But Xander loves her enough [more than she even knows, as seen in Becoming, Part 2] to take it.)

I grant you this might simply have been a coincidence rather than Marti (here) deliberately echoing/contrasting with Joss (in 3.01).  But then again, Marti always said that Joss would edit and rewrite the others' scripts.

And it's not as if this is the only evidence that Joss may have had a hand in here, either:

Gee…that sounds like more of the "Buffy's 'coming out' to Joyce about her Slayer-dom is a metaphor for coming out lesbian" theme, doesn't it?  Never noticed it in the flow of the episode, the way it's highlighted in the review when Liam cuts ahead to it.

  Reveal spoiler

And here I thought we didn't get more "Slayer=lesbian" subtext until next episode, with the "Slayer Pride Parade" line and the rainbow reflected in the glass and of course all the Buffy/Faith interaction, leading up to the "Hungry?"/"Starved" post-fight "wanna fuck?" implications.  Huh.

I grant you, this doesn't have to be Joss lending a Lez-Bro hand, given that Marti has two moms.  But Joss is the one who, when asked by lesbian journalist Emily Almond, said that they wouldn't be doing a "gay storyline" for Larry because "we already did one for Buffy", so…

Does this mean that Joss is intending the Wiffy-specific subtext here?  Probably not; he's never seemed interested in pushing that, truthfully.  (Willow has two boys in love with her at the moment, remember.)  It's just that the juxtaposition of the "something happened to Buffy when she went through puberty and it makes her different from most other girls, but it's a part of what she is, she's not just 'going through a phase', Joyce! FFS!" storyline and the "fractured-BFF" arc that drives a lot of the episode (with Buffy not really "back home" until she makes up with Willow, specifically), well, that gives those of us who are already suffering from confirmation bias even more confirmations.  I'm just saying.

On a lighter note, I noted that when Buffy dispatches Pat/Ovu Mobani, we cut to Joyce apparently beating on a now-vanished zombie with a baseball bat…while Xander and Willow watch from behind the far side of the bed.  I mean, cute Xillow moment, I suppose, but you're just going to hide and let Joyce face the danger?  No wonder Buffy barely stops to grab her lint brush if this is how you're gonna hang her mom out to dry.  I mean, seriously.

Ingrates. 😝

It's call the 'United Kingdom' for a reason!

On 3/24/2020 at 12:09 AM, lembergwatcher said:

Good observation.

But I wonder what did they tell Pat's family about the poor woman's whereabouts? And I hope Buffy & Joyce didn't have to bury the party guy, whose neck was snapped by zombie, in their backyard, right next to "Giles' cat".

I guess Pat just joins the large ranks of Sunnydale's missing and the police conclude the party was gatecrashed by a gang on PCP?