S33.E09: Rock Bottom

[survivinmt]

Also and I understand if this gets edited, but the Weavers said "God must have not spent any time creating Utah." while driving through Monument Valley and the mountains, and the salt flats and the city. Just because it doesn't look like Florida doesn't mean its not beautiful. And who are you to judge God, for heaven's sake?

[Zonk]

On 2/28/2022 at 1:15 AM, Shermie said:

Well, there’s not much racing skill in bungee jumping or zip lining or dancing or eating a bowl of foreign food or many other activities that have been done on TAR in the past. There’s more to this show than just moving the quickest from point A to point B. That’s called track and field.

At least bungee jumping or zip lining shows us some nice vistas. And you are right, there is no skill to it, but it also doesn't shuffle the placing, so there is also no luck involved. I don't like when winning or losing the race comes down to pure dumb luck. In some situations it can't be helped, like with taxis, and you could even argue that picking a good driver and knowing when to bail, is actually a skill. But building it into the race on purpose is just a horrible idea either way.

Dancing and eating challanges require skill and fortitude. Those were a really bad example.

6 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

But you can edit to overemphasize something, which is how I view this.

Yes you could, but not to that extend. Dusty is always all over the place. If it was just from time to time they wouldn't have enough footage to edit it that way.

[grandmabegum]

22 hours ago, kili said:

It's circular and you can't mark anything, so grids are tough to mentally maintain.

The only way I could see sort of making a "grid" would be to start at one of the pillars and do small circles around it. Of course, this also gets messed up when other players show and get in "your grid."

 

9 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Kim and Penn got there 45 minutes ahead of Raquel and Cayla. Had Kim moved stones, she makes the search easier for herself but also Cayla. Dusty and Ryan showed up 30 minutes after Cayla and Raquel. Had Raquel and Kim being removing stones, it is far easier for Dusty. Arun and Natalia arrived 10 minutes after Dusty and Ryan. 

I absolutely agree with this. Needle and a haystack was hard, but also showing up later was sort of an advantage cause there were less bales to choose from. Though if I do recall correctly one team unrolled a bale that had a clue in it and missed it and I think the team that lost (bless their souls for continuing until Phil had to come and get them] showed up mid pack and just could not find the right bale.

By making them leave the rocks as is and not marking them, they didn't make it easier for late arriving teams. But your point that someone could have missed a coin (As Kim did] discarded it and other teams wouldn't think to look there.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

I don't like when winning or losing the race comes down to pure dumb luck. In some situations it can't be helped, like with taxis, and you could even argue that picking a good driver and knowing when to bail, is actually a skill. But building it into the race on purpose is just a horrible idea either way.

I think of it as a Race Around the World, not a Race Around a Carefully Prepared Track.

You can prepare a track in advance so as to rule out the chance of dumb luck affecting racers negatively or positively. But if you are racing on real-world roads, racers can hit a pothole, run over a tire-busting nail, make all the lights right on green or find a gas pump just when they need one. 

The race should be a ball-buster. There's a million bucks at stake. If your cab gets lost in one episode, hopefully a few episodes later the first rock you turn over has a coin under it. Swings and roundabouts. Hopefully your luck averages out OK, over the course of the race. And over the course of life.

 

 

 

[Leeds]

On 2/27/2022 at 10:39 AM, Ducky said:

  Came here wondering if I was the only one not being a fan of Dusty/Ryan (Mainly Dusty- now that I know which one does the howling/hooting/screaming)....10x worse when you have a pair of hearing aids that amplifies sounds- loudly. Ouch.

I've never liked Crusty Dusty and particularly after his petulance on this episode.

1 hour ago, Zonk said:

At least bungee jumping or zip lining shows us some nice vistas. And you are right, there is no skill to it, but it also doesn't shuffle the placing, so there is also no luck involved. I don't like when winning or losing the race comes down to pure dumb luck. In some situations it can't be helped, like with taxis, and you could even argue that picking a good driver and knowing when to bail, is actually a skill. But building it into the race on purpose is just a horrible idea either way.

Dancing and eating challanges require skill and fortitude. Those were a really bad example.

 

There have been challenges that have been very selectively judged though.  The Globe Trotters (I think it was) were appalling at a dance challenge but were very leniently judged compared to others.

[Zonk]

3 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

You can prepare a track in advance so as to rule out the chance of dumb luck affecting racers negatively or positively. But if you are racing on real-world roads, racers can hit a pothole, run over a tire-busting nail, make all the lights right on green or find a gas pump just when they need one. 

The race should be a ball-buster. There's a million bucks at stake. If your cab gets lost in one episode, hopefully a few episodes later the first rock you turn over has a coin under it. Swings and roundabouts. Hopefully your luck averages out OK, over the course of the race. And over the course of life.

Yeah no argument there. (although it has been less and less a race around the world in recent years). I don't love it when it comes down to taxi luck, but it's something that can't be helped and if you see it as a race around the world as in "around the world in 80 days", that's just part of it. And like I said, there is even some skill to the "taxi-luck". But throwing in "challanges" that are just luck of the draw, that's where it gets super annoying. I don't want to see racers go out on what is essentially a coin flip. That's not good TV, imo. At that point we can just not do the rest of the leg at all and might as well eliminate one team at the starting line by random number generator.

I completely agree that the race should be a ball-buster and has often been too easy in recent years. But just because the racers suffer while looking for the right rock, doesn't make it good TV. I want them to suffer while they are trying to figure something out, or try to find a place in a crowded city (granted that couldn't be a thing this season for obvious reasons), or go to the edge of their physical capabilities. Best case if some of those things are combined. Like when Floyd had to ride that bike for way longer than necessary because it wasn't correct how he loaded it.

1 minute ago, Leeds said:

There have been challenges that have been very selectively judged though.  The Globe Trotters (I think it was) were appalling at a dance challenge but were very leniently judged compared to others.

I don't remember that one. Were they in the back of the pack? "The judges", aka producers behind the camera, usually loosen the requirements for passing when the team is very far behind.

[Leeds]

5 minutes ago, Zonk said:

 

I completely agree that the race should be a ball-buster and has often been too easy in recent years. But just because the racers suffer while looking for the right rock, doesn't make it good TV. I want them to suffer while they are trying to figure something out, or try to find a place in a crowded city (granted that couldn't be a thing this season for obvious reasons), or go to the edge of their physical capabilities. Best case if some of those things are combined. Like when Floyd had to ride that bike for way longer than necessary because it wasn't correct how he loaded it.

I don't remember that one. Were they in the back of the pack? "The judges", aka producers behind the camera, usually loosen the requirements for passing when the team is very far behind.

I don't remember, I'm afraid.  (I'm not even sure it was the Globe Trotters!)

I hated the rock turning challenge, but mainly because I felt they showed us way too much of it and and it got boring to watch really quickly.

 

Edited March 1, 2022 by Leeds
Added a comment.

[Maverick]

 I agree that random setbacks are part of what make the Race.  And I would argue that if you're a good team, you should be far enough ahead so that if you run into a bad taxi or a task you're having trouble with or a needle in haystack that you're still not eliminated and can have room to recover.  That's less applicable in the final few legs, but overall as with most things in life it's not what's throw at you but how you face it.  

[Cotypubby]

I love the needle in a haystack challenges. Those are the ones that can totally shake up the placement of teams. I hate tasks that are just “Show up. Jump off this thing. Get clue.” Bungee jumping, skydiving, zip lining, etc. Not only do they take no skill but there’s rarely any way to ever pass a team so it’s just boring to watch. I can only remember once a team actually being scared enough to not do it.

[grandmabegum]

The only thing that bothers me about the finale taxi luck is it can give an advantage to a team that is from/visits the finale city and knows there way around.

Spoiler about this season finale location in case people don't watch the previews.

Spoiler

If I was in this race and got to the finale I would have the best taxi luck as I have season tickets to the Galaxy. Getting to those games is a massive clusterf*** but through the years we've learned every dead end, shortcut and alternate routes that I could put on a blindfold and guide a taxi there.

 

[Zonk]

1 hour ago, Cotypubby said:

I love the needle in a haystack challenges. Those are the ones that can totally shake up the placement of teams. I hate tasks that are just “Show up. Jump off this thing. Get clue.” Bungee jumping, skydiving, zip lining, etc. Not only do they take no skill but there’s rarely any way to ever pass a team so it’s just boring to watch. I can only remember once a team actually being scared enough to not do it.

So next season we should just have a task where the teams throw a D100 and then have to wait out a number of minutes equivalent to the number that comes up? Because that would certainly "totally shake up the placement".

52 minutes ago, grandmabegum said:

The only thing that bothers me about the finale taxi luck is it can give an advantage to a team that is from/visits the finale city and knows there way around.

I don't think that ever helped. In season 1 it even cost the team, that was from the final city, the win. The New Yorkers were so sure that they knew New York better than the taxi driver, that they fell behind another team so far, that they missed a train and never recovered from that.

Their backstreet driving might have even been a good call, if it had been rush hour, but it was like 5 in the morning and so the main streets were way faster.

[Netfoot]

12 minutes ago, Zonk said:

So next season we should just have a task where the teams throw a D100 and then have to wait out a number of minutes equivalent to the number that comes up? Because that would certainly "totally shake up the placement".

Needle/haystack tasks are not usually purely random like rolling a poly-die. It may appear so at first, but teams do have some control over the outcome.

If searching for a gold coin or a red bean, the team that takes a logical, methodical approach to the task will usually win out over the team that randomly flaps about, looking here and there, running hither and yon, without any rational plan to follow.

Now, it is obviously possible that the logical, methodical search fails while the drunken sailor grabs up the first random rock and finds a coin. And it is possible that a team adopt an ill-conceived search methodology that fails to produce results as successfully than some other strategy. But on the whole, the smarter search will pay better dividends than the random stick-a-pin-in-it-with-both-eyes-closed type of search. So better racers/searchers stand to improve their chances over worse racers/searchers.

And as viewers, we get to bite our nails while waiting to see whether smarts beats dumb luck or vice versa.

[Zonk]

1 minute ago, Netfoot said:

If searching for a gold coin or a red bean, the team that takes a logical, methodical approach to the task will usually win out over the team that randomly flaps about, looking here and there, running hither and yon, without any rational plan to follow.

You are right. It's not the same. At least with a D100 everbody would have the same chance. With a needle task the chance of winning gets exponentially lower, the more clues other teams find. So if you are not one of the first teams to find one, you are SOL.

Every team goes at these tasks methodically. They all have a modicum of intelligence. Attributing success or failure to how methodical a team was, is just just-world fallacy.

So in fact, just rolling a dice would be much fairer than having a needle challange.

5 minutes ago, Netfoot said:

And as viewers, we get to bite our nails while waiting to see whether smarts beats dumb luck or vice versa.

No, we get to be annoyed waiting to see which team has dumb luck.

There can't be any skills with 5000 rocks. There is no way you won't overlook some if you aren't allowed to mark them. With hay bales you have no idea where the clue could be, there is no method that could work. It's always just dumb luck.

[Netfoot]

12 hours ago, Zonk said:

Every team goes at these tasks methodically. They all have a modicum of intelligence. Attributing success or failure to how methodical a team was, is just just-world fallacy.

But not every team will go about it with the same methodology. So, I attribute success (or more accurately, an increase in the chance of success) to the team with the best methodology. You could study search techniques before the race, same as driving a manual transmission.

12 hours ago, Zonk said:

There can't be any skills with 5000 rocks. There is no way you won't overlook some if you aren't allowed to mark them.

We know that they were required to replace the rocks unmarked. But we don't know what else the rules mandated. So, were they barred from using a leaf or stick (say) to mark the amphitheater? Something that would allow them to know how far around the perimeter they had already progressed, to avoid duplication of effort? We can't know from here. My initial idea (assuming it wasn't specifically banned) would be to lay a piece of string across the stones, moving it forward as I checked stones, so it always marked the leading edge of my search. Failing this, something else.

Which is why I maintain that a team might have been able to devise a way of increasing their chances above that of pure chance. Which is why I maintain that this was more than a random task.

Let me just finish by saying, the race tasks are not (or should not) be designed so everyone has an equal chance of success. They should be designed so as to give teams that are better at some skill, the edge.

But obviously, you aren't convinced, so I will say no more about it and let you have the last word.

Edited March 1, 2022 by Netfoot

[ProfCrash]

They were barred from any type of marking of the rocks. All the racer podcasts have been clear that they could not mark the rocks in any way.

[Taeolas]

Right, but what was proposed above would not involve marking rocks. It would be a way of marking the floor/space to know where you started and/or to tell how far around you've searched. 

I would probably have had my partner sit at one edge and start sliding around as I searched to indicate what I've searched so far. Or (as suggested) use a stick at the edge of the theatre to mark which section I've started in. 

[proserpina65]

16 hours ago, Zonk said:

Dusty is always all over the place.

That is what I disagree with.  He is not always all over the place, imo.  He had a couple of tasks which made him really frustrated and got hyper about those, but mostly he is upbeat, not angry.  But again, this is an agree to disagree thing because we are not going to agree.  So that's my last word on the subject.

 

[Tango64]

39 minutes ago, Taeolas said:

I would probably have had my partner sit at one edge and start sliding around as I searched to indicate what I've searched so far. Or (as suggested) use a stick at the edge of the theatre to mark which section I've started in. 

I think the partner not doing the task is prohibited from helping in any way, so that sliding around probably wouldn't be allowed. But if they were allowed to mark sections in any way, that might have helped.

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, Taeolas said:

Right, but what was proposed above would not involve marking rocks. It would be a way of marking the floor/space to know where you started and/or to tell how far around you've searched. 

I would probably have had my partner sit at one edge and start sliding around as I searched to indicate what I've searched so far. Or (as suggested) use a stick at the edge of the theatre to mark which section I've started in. 

The partner may not assist in the task, so, there's no way to arrange for them to move to  keep track of where you'd looked.  If production realized what was happening, there would be a penalty.

I think if they were allowed to place sticks or other objects around the ring to indicate where they'd already looked, someone would've done so.  Since no one did, I expect that the instructions were clear that they weren't allowed to remove any rocks nor were they allowed to add anything.

[ProfCrash]

Dusty mentioned in his Podcast that he wasn't sure he was allowed to go up and look at the view with Ryan but said screw it, they would take the penalty if need be. So the rules have to be pretty strict on what type of communication is allowed during the task. I would guess supportive comments, handing off water, handing over gloves and that type of thing is fine. Being told to move in a specific pattern or suggesting what to look for or anything along those line is not. 

Honestly, I know that we all come up with how we would do it at home but the Racers are not dumb, if they are not doing something obvious it is because it is in the pages of rules that they have that we do not see. 

Kim had a plan and it fell apart once other people showed up because the other people got in her way. Arun said he was going to go around in a circular pattern but that got screwed up because people got in the way. The Racers mentioned their different approaches and then saw the approaches tossed out. 

The hay bales task was different because the unrolled bales were left unrolled so the number of possibilities decreased as people came and went. The task actually became easier because bales were unraveled. Yes, clues were found but the number of potential hay bales diminished. I don't think too many people found their clue in the first bale or even two bales. The losing team was stupid unlucky but every bale they unrolled was another bale eliminated for the teams that came after them, making it easier for those teams. 

The rocks task was different because the number of rocks with coins went down but the number of rocks remained the same. It was an ugly, brutal task and we don't need to see anything like it again. 

[ByaNose]

The suspense is killing me for tonight’s Finale. I assume the first hour will be an elimination and the Final hour will be the Final 3.  I’m curious to see how it plays out and if it will be hard or not. The only challenge I thought was hard was the rock challenge and that was basically a “luck” challenge. I know Kim has been seen taken notes throughout the race. I wonder if she’ll need them. See everyone tonight, 

[UncleChuck]

On 2/25/2022 at 5:30 PM, bankerchick said:

On 2/25/2022 at 2:40 AM, SVNBob said:

In his time, Diogenes was likened to and connected with dogs quite often.  He basically stalked (or dogged) a student of Socrates named Antisthenes and begged to become his student.  Antisthenes had to literally beat Diogenes with a stick, but Diogenes said that no wood would be hard enough to keep him away, as long as Diogenes thought Antisthenes had something worth teaching.  Thus, Diogenes was known as "Antisthenes' hound".   He also referred to himself as a dog, saying that "I fawn on those who give me anything, I yelp at those who refuse, and I set my teeth in rascals."  One of the rumored causes of Diogenes' death was an infected dog bite, and statues in his honor at both his birthplace of Sinope, Turkey, and place of death in Corinth feature dogs.   As does this popular painting of him by Jean-Léon_Gérôme from 1860 (which also features his jar and his lantern):

Expand  

I'm sure I'm not the only one who would have liked to see that Diogenes waiting with Phil!

Also, Diogenes was such a rebel that he not only slept/lived in his big urn, but often walked about stark naked and urinated in the street.  Now that would have made a memorable TAR greeter!

[Guest]

1 hour ago, UncleChuck said:

Also, Diogenes was such a rebel that he not only slept/lived in his big urn, but often walked about stark naked and urinated in the street.  Now that would have made a memorable TAR greeter!

That would also have made a fun clue at the final leg's memory challenge: "He peed on your feet at the mat."

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:02 PM, mojoween said:

I was actually hoping for an Arun elimination because he was such a jerk.  Is Killer Fatigue a thing this year?  “Dad it’s to the right.” “You have to tell me left or right!”  “It’s to the right!”  “You have to give me clear directions!”

I don’t know why, but this ep was very underwhelming to me.  Two needle in a haystack challenges?  No thank you.

Although Socrates was amusing.

I really wanted Natalia to ask her father does he know his left from his right? She couldn't be any clearer which way he was supposed to go. I'm amazed that such a poorly navigational team was able to come so far after being rightly eliminated the first time!