S01.E06: Guest

[shapeshifter]

For a minute I was scared it was going to get weird at the conference but I'm happy they didn't drag out the impersonator.

Actually they did drag her out. Sorry, I couldn't resist the play on words. ;)

I wasn't crazy about the gun scene either, but for a different reason: If it had been edited out, you probably wouldn't have known it was missing.

It served to demonstrate how much she was willing to pay and risk to be relieved of her pain so the scenes with Wayne would later be believable.

They also did a great job of moving from her gasp (as she regained consciousness after having the wind knocked out of her by the bullet) to the similar facial expression on the angry man in the opening credits ceiling fresco.

What if there was a keylogger running on that laptop ?  Because PayPal is known for its shitty security, I bet they cleaned out Nora's account

I was freaking out over that, but then it also serves to show she was willing to risk it all --like risking the shaky hand hooker accidentally shooting her in the throat, or, worse yet, in the hand.

Great, was almost to the end of this very interesting episode when I realize my PVR was triple-booked and cut off the last few minutes.  Last thing I saw was the teacher (I'd presume the one Nora's husband was sleeping with) looking around and realizing Nora wasn't there.  Anything happen after that?

Hot Cop came over to let her know he didn't take the "fuck your daughter" remark "personally," and to suggest they get dinner sometime before running off to Florida.

Would the hotel have a security camera that would have filmed Impostor Nora throwing whatever it is she threw in the bar?

It was probably a good thing Nora doesn't watch enough crime shows to know to ask about the camera since the imposter looked so much like her.

Nice low-key references to Nora's boatloads of money this episode. How much could she be sitting on?

She might have, say, $10,000 in savings, which isn't enough to retire on or even buy a new car when she needs one, but since she didn't have anything to lose, she was willing to wager it on an attempt at peace of mind.

Nora was not going to change her last name with the divorce, she likes the notoriety that comes with being a 3 times legacy, she wanted the name badge with her 3 orange stickers. I did however allow her to see what the other side felt, the people that haven't lost anyone close to them, I bet some are sick of bowing and scraping and saying how sorry they are whenever they meet one.

I totally missed that the woman at the playground was the woman her husband was having an affair with. I just thought she was watching kids around her kids ages.

I missed both of these points. This was a really tightly written, acted and directed episode, without a wasted moment. I haven't seen anything like this since Breaking Bad.

[ganesh]

If you have three people in your family besides you, and a 2% taken rate, the probability that you are not taken and they each are:

(98/100)*(2/100)^3 = 0.00000784=1/127551.

 

The 2% isn't a rate because there's no per time basis because this was a one time event, and it's not a probability. 2% of the world population vanished. It's not the likelihood that any one given person vanished is 2%. Assuming equally distributed around the world and a 7 billion population, 140 million people vanished. The probability any one given person vanished is 1 in 140 million. The probability that you *and* you *and* you, or three people I know directly, is 1/140 million times 1/140 million times 1/140 million; 10^-33. It's not a conditional probability because the vanishings should be independent events and from what the show has shown, it looks like it might be random. If it's not actually random, then this is not correct. The show hasn't established otherwise, however. 

 

It doesn't mean that someone couldn't have lost 3 people. People win the lottery, but the likelihood is very small. I don't have a problem that Nora lost three people, but they just should have said, "yeah, I got a better chance of getting hit by lightning." There's no reason to assign an actual number. Again, the show is sloppy. 

 

Now the town is large enough to have pages of escorts?

 

I don't have anything against escorts. It could be argued that they'd be in more demand because people are living in the moment. It seems the world is bending to fit whatever they need to do at the time. 

 

A detail missed here and there isn't that big a deal, but there's a large collective body of wtfery that it's just egregious.

[Latverian Diplomat]

 

Why not just buy a silencer?

 

Sorry, don't mean to pick on you. It's a fair question. Silencers are illegal in New York State, and not as effective as commonly believed:

 

http://www.cracked.com/article_18576_5-ridiculous-gun-myths-everyone-believes-thanks-to-movies.html

[Latverian Diplomat]

The 2% isn't a rate because there's no per time basis because this was a one time event, and it's not a probability. 2% of the world population vanished. It's not the likelihood that any one given person vanished is 2%. Assuming equally distributed around the world and a 7 billion population, 140 million people vanished. The probability any one given person vanished is 1 in 140 million. 

I'm afraid you are just mistaken about this. You can't compute a probability just from the raw number of people taken. Think of it this way. If the population of the earth were 140 million and 140 million people were taken, then your probability of being taken was 1, a sure thing. If 140 million people were taken out of a population of 140 billion, you would expect your chances of being taken would be less than a world of seven billion. The population of people who could have potentially been taken has to be part of the equation.  

 

If the odds were 1/140 million, you would expect less than a handful of Americans to be taken, and only about 50 people worldwide.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Latverian Diplomat

[benteen]

The 2% isn't a rate because there's no per time basis because this was a one time event, and it's not a probability. 2% of the world population vanished. It's not the likelihood that any one given person vanished is 2%. Assuming equally distributed around the world and a 7 billion population, 140 million people vanished. The probability any one given person vanished is 1 in 140 million. The probability that you *and* you *and* you, or three people I know directly, is 1/140 million times 1/140 million times 1/140 million; 10^-33. It's not a conditional probability because the vanishings should be independent events and from what the show has shown, it looks like it might be random. If it's not actually random, then this is not correct. The show hasn't established otherwise, however. 

 

It doesn't mean that someone couldn't have lost 3 people. People win the lottery, but the likelihood is very small. I don't have a problem that Nora lost three people, but they just should have said, "yeah, I got a better chance of getting hit by lightning." There's no reason to assign an actual number. Again, the show is sloppy. 

 

I don't have anything against escorts. It could be argued that they'd be in more demand because people are living in the moment. It seems the world is bending to fit whatever they need to do at the time. 

 

A detail missed here and there isn't that big a deal, but there's a large collective body of wtfery that it's just egregious.

 

Good point about the escorts.  That's another business I see booming in the years since the disappearance.

[ganesh]

You can't compute a probability just from the raw number of people taken.

 

Yes, you can, by definition of probability. You have observed a singular event in a defined population. This was stated in E1. 2% of the world's population vanished on 10/14. It's not any one given person had a likelihood of 2% of vanishing. 

 

Think of this way...if 140 million people were taken out of a population of 140 billion, you would expect your chances of being taken would be less than a world of seven billion. 

 

You are inherently assuming that the vanishing in and of itself is not an independent event. The likelihood of vanishing on another planet of 140 billion is independent of this planet. If I have a 12 sided die, the likelihood of rolling a 4 is 1 in 12. If I have a 6 sided, it's 1 in 6. The one doesn't have anything to do with the other.

 

Again, this assumes that any one vanishing is a random event and any given person is a random variable. I know the 2% is made up and that's fine, and I don't have any issue with Nora's situation, but the proposed odds just don't describe the physical conditions. Technically, the probability density function for vanishing, if it's actually random, with 2 outcomes is going to be a binomial distribution over a population of 7 billion. The problem is the show won't give us more information to this end. Because surely, if people are analyzing data then they're trying to fit density functions to it too. And I'm fine with an uneven distribution, but they have to show us that.

 

They've said nothing about the event beyond the 2%; therefore, by definition, all outcomes are equally likely, which means it's random and you just have 1/140 million. 

 

I don't have a problem with the 2%. The show was trying to be cutesy with laying out actual odds, but they're just mathematically incorrect. Not to mention that 1 in 128000 isn't odds. They've been sloppy with the details of this show and in this case, where they didn't need to get into details, they got them wrong. Which is sloppy too. 

 

The show is trying to have its cake. They don't want to address the event, but one of the main characters is involved with collecting data about it, but they don't actually say anything about that. They throw in some ill-thought out numbers to make like they know what's going on, but they don't intend to focus the show on that, and it ends up actually being wrong. I'm sure that the 140 million people weren't uniformly distributed over the planet, but they won't say anything more definitive. So why bother actually making a computation for the "odds" at all? Of all things, this is completely unnecessary. It's highly unlikely. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It bugs me more they tried to put a number on it. 

 

Silencers are illegal in New York State, and not as effective as commonly believed:

 

That's fair enough. Is Mapleton supposed to be in New York? 

Edited August 5, 2014 by ganesh

[stillshimpy]

There's no reason to assign an actual number. Again, the show is sloppy.

Au contraire, Mon frere, there exists another possibility. Damon Lindeoff , having spent many years on Lost accurately calculated the odds for the percentage of the audience that would actually pay attention to the number and its accuracy as being , "In all likelihood, the same bunch that made me answer questions about whether or not a Shark's Butt had a Dharma Logo on it in ever single interview for seven stinkin' years. Mwhahahahaha. Commence with Operation Turnabout! Mwhahahaha."

Also, just in passing, I wanted to mention that a lot of people have a Paypal account with limited funds available to it, specifically because of the risk of cyber crime.

The other possibility is that it is math Nora is supposed to have done, so she calculated the likelihood.

And that Shark totally had a logo.

[KaveDweller]

I question why Nora or anyone needs to do those interviews in person.  Why not just have people fill it out online, where they don't have to be sitting face to face with the interviewer asking such personal questions?

 

Also, if they do it online it is a lot easier to analyze the data.  Does someone manually go through all those paper surveys and enter them into some other system? Do they do it by hand? That seems like a really inefficient way to do them.  This show is supposed to be in the future right?

 

There's no reason to assign an actual number. Again, the show is sloppy.

 

I think they wanted to show that Nora had gone to the trouble to calculate it out, as a sign of depression or obsession or something.

[canter]

The probability that you *and* you *and* you, or three people I know directly, is 1/140 million times 1/140 million times 1/140 million; 10^-33.

Forgive me, I'm not a math person, but I don't get this. It makes it sound like it'd be extraordinarily unlikely for a person to know multiple "departeds," but didn't 2 out of every 100 people on the planet vanish? That makes it seem plausible that lots of people would know several of the departed -- if you know 200 people, you probably know 4 of the departed. Three from a single household seems far less likely, but your wording of "people I know directly" is throwing me.

[phillychick33]

Also, if they do it online it is a lot easier to analyze the data.  Does someone manually go through all those paper surveys and enter them into some other system? Do they do it by hand? That seems like a really inefficient way to do them.  This show is supposed to be in the future right?

 

 

Well from what fake-Nora said, they get tossed into an incinerator!  Unfortunately right alongside GR members ousted by their ilk.. HEE! 

 

Ok seriously... :)  Originally the form was most likely online or paper.  In the earlier ep interviewing the couple, Nora mentions videotaping in person is now a requirement because people "had trouble understanding the questions" or some such.. She completes the paper form as they answer.

 

Someone suggested she could've been completing #121 as Yes for everyone.. I believe this is the case, and most likely why (along with other "patterns" detected) the videotaping became a requirement.  Funny how she gets her first "No" after being hugged by Holy Wayne!  So was she really fudging the answers, or did she stop projecting the hope she held and finally accepted she'd never know what kind of place her Departures ended up in.. good or bad.. and wishing wouldn't make it so?

 

Also, found it amusing that question 121 is blurred out when she looks at it (and she appears to actually read over question 120 with her finger!) when confronted by her boss-- (yes I notice things like this! lol)-- and we don't find out till episode end what the question is that she "..answered yes.  All three times."  All the more sadder when you finally find out.  Pretty good acting by "Nora" this ep.. shame for all those missing out!

[Blakeston]

After the first or second episode, I tried to do the math on Nora losing all of her family members, and I came up with 1 in 125,000.

 

The odds of a specific person disappearing were 1 in 50. The odds that two specific people would both disappear would be 50 times greater, or one in 2,500. The odds that three specific people would all vanish would be 50 times greater, or 1 in 125,000.

 

So the answer to the question, "What are the odds that Nora's husband, son and daughter would all vanish?" would be 1 in 125,000.

 

I'm guessing whoever came up with the 1 in 128,000 odds was looking at it differently, though. As in, "What are the odds that Nora would stay, and her husband, son, and daughter would all vanish?" I think the odds for that would be 1 in 127,551, which could be rounded up to 128,000.

 

I don't remember her asking the question on the show. She fills out the form, so I thought she might be always checking it yes (perhaps subconciously), unable to think of her family members not being in a better place.

 

Here's my take on the question 121 thing:

 

Her coworker asked her if she was telling people about losing her family before asking them the questions. His theory was that people were inclined to say, "yes, I believe my loved one is in a better place now" - because it would be dickish to say the opposite to someone whose family disappeared. It would imply that her loved ones aren't in a better place now, either.

 

Nora made it clear that she doesn't tell people her story before asking the questions. But I think the implication of the end was that the interview subjects could tell that Nora was grieving, because her grief was that obvious. And then after her encounter Wayne, she felt unburdened, and people no longer got that vibe from her. So they answered honestly.

[ganesh]

Au contraire, Mon frere, there exists another possibility. Damon Lindeoff , having spent many years on Lost accurately calculated the odds for the percentage of the audience that would actually pay attention to the number and its accuracy as being , "In all likelihood, the same bunch that made me answer questions about whether or not a Shark's Butt had a Dharma Logo on it in ever single interview for seven stinkin' years. Mwhahahahaha. Commence with Operation Turnabout! Mwhahahaha."

 

This is the most correct answer, of course.

 

I think they wanted to show that Nora had gone to the trouble to calculate it out, as a sign of depression or obsession or something.

 

Also correct, which is why saying "I had a better chance of being struck by lightening" is a better way of expressing this concept. I get that most viewers wouldn't latch on to the math of this, so it's not a big deal. It bothers me because this is lumped into the shit with the dogs; with being kind of sloppy. I'd rather they avoid the numbers and focus on Nora just collecting data. Maybe they shouldn't have made the show 3 years out. If it's earlier, information isn't as reliable so you don't have to deal with it being as accurate. 

 

Forgive me, I'm not a math person, but I don't get this. It makes it sound like it'd be extraordinarily unlikely for a person to know multiple "departeds," but didn't 2 out of every 100 people on the planet vanish?

 

The odds of a specific person disappearing were 1 in 50.

 

I really don't think it is 1 in 50. Though I understand that 1/50 = 0.02. 2% is a way to express normalization and to provide context. In E1 in one of the first news voice overs, they were listing the aggregate amount of people per country that vanished. There's obviously a lot of variability over the planet and a ton of statistical analysis over these numbers would be done by just about every world government. And that's my problem. It's clear that the show doesn't want to get into the actual event too deeply, but in their effort to avoid it, they gum it up worse for me.

 

I'm still not sure if Mapelton is above or below average. Or why they seem to have a chapter of the GR. Because it's a small town. Or is it? Why would the GR have a house and buy a church in a small town, when we've seen them in Random City and now NYC. How many people are in the GR that this could happen?

 

They arrived at the 1 in 128000 by assuming that the vanishings were conditional probabilities; or, that the fact any one person vanished is dependent on the vanishing of another. I think the vanishings are all independent events, so that wouldn't be the case. I don't even know why I'm on it. It's not like they're going to call me tomorrow to clarify. 

 

I can at least give the episode some props because they had people who were kind of over having to be all "zomg, so so sorry thoughts and prayers" about the whole thing. That I can buy. 

[stillshimpy]

I can at least give the episode some props because they had people who were kind of over having to be all "zomg, so so sorry thoughts and prayers" about the whole thing. That I can buy.

I also liked the detail that the people expressing this sentiment in the hotel suite were all people at a conference for people who profit from The Departure, so the necessity of expressing sympathy would be part of their daily lives. Sort of like customer service representatives for the utility companies will, pretty guaranteed, spend at least part of a day having someone read them the riot act about how much food has spoiled in a fridge deprived of electricity.

They were all people in the industry, so it was like a mortician complaining about having to deal with all those irksome mourners. It was both believable and sort of the mark of a carpetbagger.

[Blakeston]

This is the most correct answer, of course.

 

I really don't think it is 1 in 50. Though I understand that 1/50 = 0.02. 2% is a way to express normalization and to provide context. In E1 in one of the first news voice overs, they were listing the aggregate amount of people per country that vanished. There's obviously a lot of variability over the planet and a ton of statistical analysis over these numbers would be done by just about every world government. And that's my problem. It's clear that the show doesn't want to get into the actual event too deeply, but in their effort to avoid it, they gum it up worse for me.

 

I'm still not sure if Mapelton is above or below average. Or why they seem to have a chapter of the GR. Because it's a small town. Or is it? Why would the GR have a house and buy a church in a small town, when we've seen them in Random City and now NYC. How many people are in the GR that this could happen?

 

They arrived at the 1 in 128000 by assuming that the vanishings were conditional probabilities; or, that the fact any one person vanished is dependent on the vanishing of another. I think the vanishings are all independent events, so that wouldn't be the case. I don't even know why I'm on it. It's not like they're going to call me tomorrow to clarify. 

 

I think we're just supposed to believe that 2% of the world's population vanished, and that the disappearances appeared to be random. With the exception of very small countries, I wouldn't expect that the percentage would vary all that much from country to country. (Unless the numbers they said in the pilot suggested otherwise - in which case the writers probably just messed up.)

 

And I don't see where conditional probabilities come in. To come up with the 1 in 128,000 figure, the writers would be assuming that the disappearances were random, not conditional. If all people had a 1 in 50 chance of disappearing, then the odds that 2 specific people would both disappear would be one in 1 in 2,500.

 

As for the Guilty Remnant, I don't think we're supposed to believe that all of the members living in Mapleton are from Mapleton. Their house is probably for members from all over the region.

Edited August 5, 2014 by Blakeston

[Constantinople]

Nora was not going to change her last name with the divorce, she likes the notoriety that comes with being a 3 times legacy, she wanted the name badge with her 3 orange stickers.

 

There are pragmatic reasons for not changing one's name.  The judge may think it's a simple matter of filling out a form, but you'll have to go through a bunch of rigmarole with various corporate and government bureaucracies.  Also, once you're known by a certain name professionally, many people don't want to go through the trouble of rebranding themselves.

 

Nora does seem to like the attention to some extent, otherwise I'm not sure she pushed the mug off the table in the coffee shop (I could go either way about her decision to speak at the park commemoration).  I think printing the fake badge with the 3 stickers is part of that, but part of it also have been a feeling on Nora's part that she wouldn't let her family be taken from her again.

[stillshimpy]

There are pragmatic reasons for not changing one's name.  The judge may think it's a simple matter of filling out a form, but you'll have to go through a bunch of rigmarole with various corporate and government bureaucracies.  Also, once you're known by a certain name professionally, many people don't want to go through the trouble of rebranding themselves.

 

I think the reason Nora didn't change her name was sort of implied by the judge.  The Judge went out of his way to make sure she understood that even if Sarah's husband reappears -- which is one of the few times the show has acknowledged that since they don't know what happened to these people, there exists a possibility that they will all come the hell back just as abruptly -- the divorce will stand.  

 

Presumably part of the reason Nora kept her last name is that it is also her children's last name.  She's divorcing the putz who boinked a pre-school teacher, even if it is just to declare her emotional freedom to herself, but she is not divorcing or moving away from her identity as the mother of two vanished children. 

[Shermie]

I really don't think it is 1 in 50.

 

Actually, it is. Not that you could gather people in groups of 50 before 10/14 and pronounce that one person in each group would "depart". But statistically, one person out of every 50 on Earth departed. That is a fact within this show. 

 

It's like cancer statistics. They say you have a one in four chance of getting cancer in your lifetime. That doesn't mean that in my workplace of 12 people, 3 of them will definitely get cancer. Maybe it will be six, maybe one. Who knows? But the statistics are that one person in four in North America will get cancer. How it's distributed among the population has a lot of variables - including shit luck and complete randomness. 

 

The departing is the same. One person in 50 disappeared, so a town of 5000 probably lost 100 people. Maybe it was 150, and the next town over of 5000 lost only 50, but it averaged out to one in 50. Until we learn differently that there was something all the departed had in common, we have to assume it was just as random as cancer (and I know, cancer is preventable in some cases).

 

All that said, I still dislike the GR. Their purpose makes no sense - "We don't want anyone to forget". As if anyone would forget the most world-changing event in history. As if dressing in white, not talking, stealing photos of loved ones and chain smoking helps people remember. Idiots.

[ganesh]

I think we're just supposed to believe that 2% of the world's population vanished, and that the disappearances appeared to be random.

 

I know. I'm harping on it because the overall sloppiness of the show bothers me. And honestly, I don't have much else going on. However, if in fact the vanishings are random, and they very well can be, one still has to apply rigorous statistical analysis to prove this as well. My problem is that this is an easily solvable problem: Hey, can we call a stats professor and just tell him how we could fit the numbers to make sense?

 

Part of my point with the math is that I'm trying to think about variability and how that would be included in the stats. And whether it's truly random or not. We can assume what we want, but that doesn't mean we're correct. I'm well aware that this singular paragraph is more thought than TPTB put into it. This should be described by a binomial distribution, which should give some insight into the whole thing. I'll get off the math if it's getting to be a pain in the ass topic though.

 

It's indicative of the show: they've got some decent ideas on paper, but they aren't being executed well, and I'm expected to swallow a ton of incredulity. 

 

As for the Guilty Remnant, I don't think we're supposed to believe that all of the members living in Mapleton are from Mapleton. Their house is probably for members from all over the region.

 

When we're at the point when it's "I don't think we're supposed to believe this or that" then the show is really doing a poor job and expecting the viewers to fill in all the details is just poor execution of show. There's no indication of this. In fact, the GR recruited a local member, Liv Tyler, and we know that the chief's wife is obviously from Mapleton. Either situation is equally likely though because they haven't shown us one way or the other. 

 

What I still don't know is that whether it's supposed to be a small town v city. 

[goodogcarl]

I kept yelling for Nora not to go in that door. I do that at the movies too.

Well, stop it.

[iMonrey]

When Nora followed that woman into the restroom and confronted her, the first thing I thought when she came out of the stall was that she was Laurie Garvey in a wig. Whoever that actress was looked a lot like Amy Brenneman, I thought. The whole scene confused the hell out of me until I realized that wasn't her.

 

I agree this episode was more watchable than most, thanks to Carrie Coon. But the other thing that bugged me is the way Question 121 was deliberately blurred out at the beginning of the episode, when her boss asked her about it. I knew we'd be seeing the question and learning its significance at the end of the episode, so that felt overly manipulative and telegraphed. (Then again, "overly manipulative" seems to be the hallmark of this show._)

Edited August 5, 2014 by iMonrey

[shapeshifter]

I know. I'm harping on it because the overall sloppiness of the show bothers me....

I'll get off the math if it's getting to be a pain in the ass topic though....

Well, maybe it would just be better in its own thread where all of you who still remember how to do this stuff can hash it all out, and then report back to us with the results. I have a daughter who does amazing things with formulas in spreadsheets if you need it.

If this show takes off as much as Lost did, it would make a great topic for a stats course.

...But the other thing that bugged me is the way Question 121 was deliberately blurred out at the beginning of the episode, when her boss asked her about it. I knew we'd be seeing the question and learning its significance at the end of the episode, so that felt overly manipulative and telegraphed. (Then again, "overly manipulative" seems to be the hallmark of this show._)

Yeah, it was like they wanted us to think it was the suicide question--or was that only me who thought that? But they blurred it, which was actually a cool way of conveying that we shouldn't be so sure. When people commit suicide, often it is an attempt to be in "a better place," or at least not in this place.

[ganesh]

I got a religious connotation from the question. Which, doesn't mean it's not a legit question to ask. But, for some reason the show features a pastor who disproves the rapture, has religious opening credits, but refuses to address how the event affected religion.

[shapeshifter]

I got a religious connotation from the question. Which, doesn't mean it's not a legit question to ask. But, for some reason the show features a pastor who disproves the rapture, has religious opening credits, but refuses to address how the event affected religion.

The question was philosophically loaded as it fit within the episode, but if we look at it as a "real" question on a "real" survey being given to people after such an event, it would likely be coded to measure how the respondents felt about the departed and also whether the respondent was religious. Then they could determine what percentage of the goners came from homes with religious leanings and/or had positive relationships with their household members. I'm simplifying this, of course.

Where's that damn stats thread, anyway? just kidding.

[goodogcarl]

I watched this episode again last night . . . because i kept dozing off while watching it the first time . . . and I'm nearly positive Angel freaked and ran out of the house without her $3000.

[A Boston Gal]

Since we could read part of #121 ("Do you believe......?" ) My initial thought on what Question 121 was "Do you believe in God?"

 

Obviously, I was wrong.

Edited August 6, 2014 by A Boston Gal

[Sofie Fatale]

Oh Angel took her money all right. That working girl was freaked but not THAT freaked ;)

[HitchcockBlonde]

I watched the the behind the scenes video on the show, and I think it answered some questions that keep coming up in the forum. Regarding the town of Mapleton, it is described as a small New York suburb, and the cast describes it many times as a "small town" so we are to assume it has a hamlet feel, but is not that far from New York city. This is common on the East coast, where small towns exist very close to major cities. Mapleton lost 100 people on 10/14, and that is a higher percentage for the town than the 2% worldwide.

 

Regarding the Guilty Remnant, the cult is described as a "new" cult just "starting to form" all over the world, so it is not local only to Mapleton and it has not been around for that long. The GR is described as non-crazy people/business people/parents who made a choice to join. Their premise is that life is over as they know it. There is no meaning in the way they used to live, and they will not offer distractions or allow people to carry on as if nothing happened. They want to remind people of what happened because there is peace in the truth, and everything else is utter nonsense. They judge people who want to return to their lives, and they want to provoke as much aggression and hatred as possible. 

 

Holy Wayne is not considered "new," and is much more well known in this world. When the show starts, he is at the height of his powers and a fugitive. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by BostonBelle

[ganesh]

This is a huge huge peeve for me with modern tv. If TPTBs feel the need to disseminate information about the show outside of the aired episodes, then they aren't doing their job. I shouldn't have to consult outside sources, especially for world-building details. That's just not playing fair with the viewers. 

 

I speculated that the town might have a higher than average number of people who vanished, but the chief or Nora could have easily conveyed this on the show. Or in E1 at the memorial. I don't remember them saying this, so ok, if I forgot. 

 

So, they're saying the town has less than 5000 people? But a paper that has multiple ads for escorts? 

 

The chief said he was investigating the GR for maybe a little over a year iirc, but there isn't anything on the show to indicate that they're new, and there's a lot of members just in the town, so "just starting to form" is a bit much. We did see the GR twice now in other locations than the town.

 

I'm skeptical how "all over the world" would work, since we haven't been shown much of this world for one, and these members seem to be largely white and middle class; i.e., american and christian, from why I've watched. There's an Indian GR? Japanese? They seem to assuming a very homogeneous world culture and not taking into account how a buddhist or shinto or hindu might have interpreted the event.

 

So in short, again, it seems like these bits of information weren't really thought through. I know it's paradoxical, but I don't really care what TPTBs say off screen. Unless it's shown or said in an episode, it's amounts to speculation for me. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by ganesh

[izabella]

Regarding the Guilty Remnant, the cult is described as a "new" cult just "starting to form" all over the world, so it is not local only to Mapleton and it has not been around for that long. The GR is described as non-crazy people/business people/parents who made a choice to join. Their premise is that life is over as they know it. There is no meaning in the way they used to live, and they will not offer distractions or allow people to carry on as if nothing happened. They want to remind people of what happened because there is peace in the truth, and everything else is utter nonsense. They judge people who want to return to their lives, and they want to provoke as much aggression and hatred as possible.

 

This is so freaking contradictory.  Provoke aggression and hatred as much as possible, but there is peace in the truth?  Life is over as they know it and no one should return to their lives; however, they are buying up property and buying cigarettes and whatnot...how would that happen if people didn't continue with normal lives?  Where would the money for survival come from if everyone just stopped doing their thing and hung out smoking?  Where would electricity and food and fuel and cigarettes and notepads and pencils come from then? 

 

Survival is not a distraction.  They offer nothing, nothing, nothing yet they do take and take. 

[HitchcockBlonde]

I got a religious connotation from the question. Which, doesn't mean it's not a legit question to ask. But, for some reason the show features a pastor who disproves the rapture, has religious opening credits, but refuses to address how the event affected religion.

 

The behind the scenes video I watched discussed this too. They said that religion has been affected, in that people are turning away from religion in large numbers. They say it's tempting to think that after such an event, people would turn towards religion, but this show wants to explore the human capacity for unbelief and indifference to religion. In this world, the majority of people feel there is no belief system that can explain what happened. The pastor believes this was not the Rapture, and thinks God has selected him as a shepherd to lead people to the truth, and he thinks of himself similarly to Job, where he will be forced to endure many trials as a test.

[ganesh]

Would it be all right if we have a separate thread for alt media stuff like this? Because I honestly don't want to know anything outside of what's in the episode. 

Edited August 6, 2014 by ganesh

[HitchcockBlonde]

This is a huge huge peeve for me with modern tv. If TPTBs feel the need to disseminate information about the show outside of the aired episodes, then they aren't doing their job. I shouldn't have to consult outside sources, especially for world-building details. That's just not playing fair with the viewers. 

 

I speculated that the town might have a higher than average number of people who vanished, but the chief or Nora could have easily conveyed this on the show. Or in E1 at the memorial. I don't remember them saying this, so ok, if I forgot. 

 

So, they're saying the town has less than 5000 people? But a paper that has multiple ads for escorts? 

 

The chief said he was investigating the GR for maybe a little over a year iirc, but there isn't anything on the show to indicate that they're new, and there's a lot of members just in the town, so "just starting to form" is a bit much. We did see the GR twice now in other locations than the town.

 

I'm skeptical how "all over the world" would work, since we haven't been shown much of this world for one, and these members seem to be largely white and middle class; i.e., american and christian, from why I've watched. There's an Indian GR? Japanese? They seem to assuming a very homogeneous world culture and not taking into account how a buddhist or shinto or hindu might have interpreted the event.

 

So in short, again, it seems like these bits of information weren't really thought through. I know it's paradoxical, but I don't really care what TPTBs say off screen. Unless it's shown or said in an episode, it's amounts to speculation for me. 

 

I am not a fan of having to look outside the show for information, either, but I though this would be helpful because the same questions keep being asked over and over again in the thread. 

 

Regarding the newspaper, I think she could have been reading a "big city" paper if they are close to NYC. In Massachusetts, everyone for about 100 miles will read the Boston Herald or the Boston Globe. 

[ganesh]

Mainly by me. I can be a broken record. It's worse when I'm drunk. I have an irrational fury when TPTBs have to tell us things outside of the show. It's not personal.

 

TPTBs may have wanted to explore a show how people turned away from religion, but I'm just not buying it. Just saying so doesn't mean it is. You still have to explore from different religious povs in order to do that. Not just not cover that in the show. It's not really tempting to think that people would turn to religion; it's what a lot of people would do. They would act like people. Just saying "these people don't" doesn't make it true.

 

The opening credits are certainly religious-based. The monument was seemingly religious based, and question 121 had religious connotations. 

 

I find it baffling when TPTBs for any show say what the show is about, but when you watch the show, it's not really that.

Edited August 6, 2014 by ganesh

[shapeshifter]

Since we could read part of #121 ("Do you believe......?" ) My initial thought on what Question 121 was "Do you believe in God?"

 

Obviously, I was wrong.

Not entirely. Answering yes, that you believe your lost ones are in better place, is the answer most people who believe in a hereafter would give, and most of them would likely believe in God (except for maybe someone who believes an abusive family member is rotting in hell).

I think the opposite is likely too--that someone who does not believe in a hereafter and/or God would say no (except for those whose lost ones were suffering with a terminal illness, etc.).

So the question's purpose could have been to cross-check for validity another question that more overtly asked if the respondent believes in God.

I almost wonder if someone working on props or a writer designed a mock survey that would actually be useful in such an event to gather statistics.

[ganesh]

I'm over course over doing it, but if Nora works for a federal agency, they might be prevented from asking about religion directly. The government wouldn't want to get sued if it was implied that people could only receive benefits if they confirmed that they believed in some god; i.e., in the USA that could imply only christians would get benefits.  

 

I almost wonder if someone working on props or a writer designed a mock survey that would actually be useful in such an event to gather statistics.

 

I this show, I'm highly doubtful since much of what we have seen are half baked concepts at best. Since I'm not sure why visiting Brazil would be relevant. I'm doubtful there's a show bible.  

 

That's something I think is what online extra content is good for. Have a real survey that people can go online and fill out, pretending they are in the show universe and show all the demographics of the results. 

[HitchcockBlonde]

I find it baffling when TPTBs for any show say what the show is about, but when you watch the show, it's not really that.

I think it makes sense that the credits are religious based. Like the people in this world, we don't know what caused the event, and we may never know, but the majority of people in the world believe it is some sort of religious rapture. Religion and religious themes are central to the show. Some people think they didn't pass God's test, so they turn against religion, assuming a damned life and afterlife. Some people become fanatical and join cults to repent/make sure they are selected the next time people are taken by God. Some people feel they this is a test by God, thinking the departed are people so bad that God has already damned them, and doesn't feel the need to "test" them, as they have already failed the test. I certainly do not have a problem with the religion in the show - I think that's what makes it interesting. 

[ganesh]

I think it makes sense that the credits are religious based. Like the people in this world, we don't know what caused the event, and we may never know, but the majority of people in the world believe it is some sort of religious rapture.

 

That's over 3 billion people thinking this is the rapture. The rapture is a christian concept, and not actually in the bible anyway. I'm highly doubtful that the asian continent thinks it's the rapture and that's upwards of 3 billion people ish. 

 

Forgetting whatever the drivel TPTBs are spouting, the pastor seemed to clearly disprove that it's the rapture. The show showed that. So, it's reasonable to extrapolate there's other people who have done something similar. I find it disingenuous that the show went out of the way in the first episode to say it's not the rapture, but yet has rapture like opening credits. 

 

This is the problem. We're filling in more than just the blanks, we're basically doing the world building. The stuff that we need to know in order to understand how this world works just isn't being covered. They're trying to have it both ways from what I've watched. And to not include povs from other religions seems way way short sighted to me. 

[HitchcockBlonde]

That's over 3 billion people thinking this is the rapture. The rapture is a christian concept, and not actually in the bible anyway. I'm highly doubtful that the asian continent thinks it's the rapture and that's upwards of 3 billion people ish. 

 

Forgetting whatever the drivel TPTBs are spouting, the pastor seemed to clearly disprove that it's the rapture. The show showed that. So, it's reasonable to extrapolate there's other people who have done something similar. I find it disingenuous that the show went out of the way in the first episode to say it's not the rapture, but yet has rapture like opening credits. 

 

This is the problem. We're filling in more than just the blanks, we're basically doing the world building. The stuff that we need to know in order to understand how this world works just isn't being covered. They're trying to have it both ways from what I've watched. And to not include povs from other religions seems way way short sighted to me. 

I never said EVERYONE thinks it's the rapture. I said that the the majority of people think it's a religious rapture like event. Basically, not everyone on the planet, but a majority, feel this is an event tied to religion/God/a higher being in some way. 

 

When in the pilot did the show say that this was not the rapture? The whole point of the show is that no one knows what it is, That is the state of the world. It doesn't need to be built. The people in the world don't know, and neither do we. And I don't think we will ever know. That's why so many cults are springing up, because people feel it is related to religion or a higher power, not just some scientific black hole or accident of some kind. I am very interested in the experience of people not knowing what the event was.  

[Constantinople]

So, they're saying the town has less than 5000 people? But a paper that has multiple ads for escorts?

 

 

Regarding the newspaper, I think she could have been reading a "big city" paper if they are close to NYC. In Massachusetts, everyone for about 100 miles will read the Boston Herald or the Boston Globe.

In addition, sometimes a suburban area will have a chain of small newspapers that share common ownership and are essentially the same paper with different names and the stories re-arranged. A story relating to Town X might be on the front page of the Town X edition, but the second page of the Town Y edition. Along with common ownership, comes common advertising, so if you buy an ad, you're buying it for the entire chain.

 

 

I'm over course over doing it, but if Nora works for a federal agency, they might be prevented from asking about religion directly. The government wouldn't want to get sued if it was implied that people could only receive benefits if they confirmed that they believed in some god; i.e., in the USA that could imply only christians would get benefits.

Possibly, but it does seem the Constitution has either been amended or interpreted differently since people vanished. The kids were praying in school in the first episode, and no one's mentioned it was a private school. AFTEC also has a pretty dim view of the 1st, 4th and 6th Amendments, and probably others.

Edited August 7, 2014 by Constantinople

[BooBear]

Weighing in late... this episode was actually a good one. Though I was rolling my eyes at the hooker shooting Nora *** see writers try too hard **** the rest of the episode had just the right touch of elements.  Nora works for me over Kevin because she clearly has suffered a tragic loss while Kevin seems to be having a much greater reaction to much less. Essentially his story is that his wife left him. I particularly liked the party and the people there making fun of all of the departure related insanity. It wasn't like a glib making fun of it, but more like a weary, come on... we need some fun. I totally would have kissed Mr. "what do you do" just because he made me laugh and smile a lot during the episode.  I also liked that Nora joined in.

 

Crazy eyes Wayne drives me crazy. I think it is the actor. So I don't want to believe Nora was cured by him. I just feel like what happened at the conference was that "end point" / "bottom" where she had offically had enough of all of it. And though she will write it off to Wayne and he maybe allowed her to realize her feelings... I think her experiences at the conference really did it. Did you see how upset she got when the nametag was gone? I think on some level she realized how angry she got over someone taking her place of pity. There was like this moment when she was talking to the security guy where she said being a legacy tended to bring a lot of sympathy where like she knew and kind of felt ashamed to know how much she had come to rely on that identity.

 

I do think the show is improving but I am disappointed that I don't think they do have any book or idea about the word they created.
 

[shapeshifter]

That's something I think is what online extra content is good for. Have a real survey that people can go online and fill out, pretending they are in the show universe and show all the demographics of the results.

We could sort of do that here by starting a topic "The Survey" (but more clever/descriptive) and use the poll option.

...Nora works for me over Kevin because she clearly has suffered a tragic loss while Kevin seems to be having a much greater reaction to much less. Essentially his story is that his wife left him.

Now that you mention it, maybe that is a point they are trying to make. Divorce is right near the top of life events that cause degrees of stress. And divorce is someone leaving for whom one rarely gets closure, unlike many deaths. Of course some people never get over the death of a loved one, and some people happily get divorced, but in general, both divorce and the disappearances on this show cause never-ending grief--which is why it's going to be hard to keep an audience.

I like the show because it makes me think--especially after I read the posts here.

Edited August 7, 2014 by shapeshifter

[Michell3]

I think I've found my "hero" YAY!  One of my big problems with this series has been that I wasn't really connecting with any of the characters on any level.  Yes, HotCop is hot, but who cares.  Anyhow, I love Nora and the actress who plays her is fantastic.  The scene with Holy Wayne was the first time this entire series where I felt any kind of emotional suspense.  Really, thank goodness.  I was starting to wonder if I had been wasting my time watching this.  Now I wonder a little less.

 

a few thoughts:

 

I'm disappointed that the Nora impersonator was just some nut job protestor.  The whole thing seemed to have been built up and then fell flat.  I thought there would be some sort of surprise but nope. One reviewer said FakeNora was screaming about plasma rays being shot from space and making people disappear...did anyone else hear this?  I didn't, but the scene was noisy. I'll have to rewatch.  

 

It's really fascinating to read everyone's interpretations of the whole hooker-with-a-gun scene.  My own impression was that she feeling numb with despair and needed to feel something, anything at all, and needed to do something crazy and extreme to get there.  Also fascinating have been people's impressions of Nora's grocery shopping habits.  The camera seemed to linger for a loooong time on that empty paper towel roll.  My thoughts were that she was trying so hard to maintain some semblance of family life in her home, filling the cabinets with cereal that she doesn't eat etc, that she was neglecting the practical things she actually needs, like paper towels...perhaps symbolizing her clinging so hard to her grief that she's neglecting her own well being.  

 

i found the scene where Nora was thrown out of the hotel just....unlikely.  Do people not carry around drivers licenses for ID?  What about cameras?  Witnesses?  Surely the bartender would remember a crazy lady tossing some glassware around the bar.  On the other hand, perhaps this was to build suspense about Nora's state of mind.  She almost didn't remember yelling at that lady at the last conference, perhaps she blacked out after those almost-FDA-approved drugs and really did smash up a bar?

 

Also unlikely: the DROP conference rep blowing off Nora, here have a "GUEST" badge, who cares if someone is parading around as someone else?  It's not like people are protesting outside, passing out dead grenades.   

 

Anyway, more Nora please!

Edited August 7, 2014 by Michell3

[ganesh]

I never said EVERYONE thinks it's the rapture. I said that the the majority of people think it's a religious rapture like event. Basically, not everyone on the planet, but a majority, feel this is an event tied to religion/God/a higher being in some way.

 

The majority of people on the planet is about 3 billion. The rapture is a christian concept, of which are about 1 billion or so. There's 1 billion muslims at least that I don't think believe in the rapture, plus jews, hindus, buddhists, shinto, atheists, all of whom do not believe in the rapture, nor have a rapture like event in their pantheon. Could all these people change their mind and think it is a rapture like event? Certainly. Did the show, show that? Not from what I've watched. This is a problem because the show make up is pretty homogeneous, and we're not privy to other povs. And it seems the show is going out of its way not to show us other povs. I don't think there's 3 billion people who accept that the rapture occurred. 

 

When in the pilot did the show say that this was not the rapture?

 

The pastor said, literally, "this is not the rapture" in E1 at the town gathering. Which of course is conjecture on his part. Then we saw him handing out information about people who did bad things to prove his point. Similarly, in E1, in the news VO when the chief was at the bar, they ran through a list of people who vanished, which ranged from the pope to Gary Busey. It's my speculation, but I think it's reasonable to assume that the intent of this was to point out that not only "good" people vanished. So, just from the first episode, concluding that this wasn't the rapture, isn't that unreasonable. 

 

In the episode that featured the pastor, he told Nora that her vanished husband was having an affair. Assuming that's true, and I have no reason to think he was lying to her, that's adultery, which violates one of the ten commandments. Presumably, such a person would not qualify for being raptured. The pastor also got his face punched in, in the beginning of the episode, because someone related to a vanished person didn't like a flier he put out which had information that the vanished person wasn't so good. Additionally, iirc, he was also printing out another flier in that episode about someone else who was a bad person. 

 

Based on all that, I think the show is telling us that this isn't the rapture. 

 

Do the GR think it's the rapture? They haven't said anything to this end on the show, and we don't know how many people are in the GR. From what we have seen in the episodes, the GR is known at the federal level, so it's probably USA-wide, but they haven't said anything outside the USA. So I don't think there's 3 billion people in the GR at this point. 

Edited August 7, 2014 by ganesh

[fandomfatale]

One reviewer said FakeNora was screaming about plasma rays being shot from space and making people disappear...did anyone else hear this?  I didn't, but the scene was noisy. I'll have to rewatch.  

I watched that scene with subs on, and I remember thinking that no one would be able to hear what she was saying. 

 

Here's what she said: "In 2005, the Israeli Mossad was experimenting with a plasma ray that could target all human matter and leave almost no residue. Where are your experts and panels on that?"

 

I figure the fact that it was barely audible means it's not important at all. I think the take-away was that there are a lot of conspiracies out there. That's what I would expect to see more of - people protesting the governments because they think the governments know what happened and are keeping it secret, and more than anything I would expect to see a bunch of UFO nuts (so to speak). Since the event defies known science, it was either aliens with advanced technology or it was supernatural/religious in nature. 

 

I loved the announcement over the intercom for the panel about the Brandenburg Carousel. It reminded me of the excitement I felt watching the pilot, thinking we would learn more about anomalies like that. How wrong I was.

 

I was so relieved they didn't "spin" at the party.

 

I agree that this episode and the third one that focused on Revered Jamison were strong. The strongest, probably. All the same, I'd prefer that none of the episodes were only about one character. I've never liked it when shows have done that, Lost especially. I'd be happy to never see any of the GR characters again but I did miss the others.  I wish they would take the great details from this episode - the impostor Nora with her conspiracy theories, the partyers who were tired of their masks of sympathy, Nora and the paper towel roll - and incorporate that kind of quality into the storylines of the rest of the characters. I really do love Kevin but some of his stuff is getting repetitive. Bagels and shirts disappearing, angsting about Laurie,  being late for town council meetings, Jill being sullen, etc.

 

I feel like I'm in such an odd place with this show because I agree with all of the criticisms I've seen on here but I still really love it and look forward to it so much.

[ganesh]

I'm disappointed that the Nora impersonator was just some nut job protestor.  The whole thing seemed to have been built up and then fell flat.  I thought there would be some sort of surprise but nope. One reviewer said FakeNora was screaming about plasma rays being shot from space and making people disappear...did anyone else hear this?  I didn't, but the scene was noisy. I'll have to rewatch.

 

I think the take-away was that there are a lot of conspiracies out there. That's what I would expect to see more of - people protesting the governments because they think the governments know what happened and are keeping it secret, and more than anything I would expect to see a bunch of UFO nuts (so to speak). Since the event defies known science, it was either aliens with advanced technology or it was supernatural/religious in nature.

 

I would be more interested in this. Since the show imo went out of its way in the pilot to say NOT RELIGIOUS. I would think there's a ton more nutjobs out there.

 

Not for anything, and the show didn't know this at the time, but it's not like is outside of the realm of speculation, but there's an ebola out break in Africa. The One World Government released a plague to control world population and make sure only white people survived. <-- as a possible conspiracy.

 

Because people just don't vanish.

 

Stuff like this is why I don't think TPTB really thought this through. From what I've seen, the GR is the most likely reaction to what happened? This seems the most unlikely. I mean, *everyone* would be blaming Obama.

Edited August 7, 2014 by ganesh

[Constantinople]

Nora works for me over Kevin because she clearly has suffered a tragic loss while Kevin seems to be having a much greater reaction to much less. Essentially his story is that his wife left him.

 

 

Now that you mention it, maybe that is a point they are trying to make. Divorce is right near the top of life events that cause degrees of stress. And divorce is someone leaving for whom one rarely gets closure, unlike many deaths. Of course some people never get over the death of a loved one, and some people happily get divorced, but in general, both divorce and the disappearances on this show cause never-ending grief--which is why it's going to be hard to keep an audience.

As for whether Nora or Kevin has suffered a greater loss, one can easily flip it around and argue that Nora's family didn't choose to leave her, but Laurie choose to leave Kevin, his step-son Tom has essentially chosen to leave him and his daughter Jill is ignoring him as much as possible. Moreover, people like Kevin aren't being put on a pedestal the way people like Nora or the author of the book are.

I think there must be some significance that Nora didn't seek to divorce her husband until after she found out about his affair. The affair, unlike his vanishing, represented a conscious choice by Nora's husband.

[stillshimpy]

The majority of people on the planet is about 3 billion. The rapture is a christian concept, of which are about 1 billion or so. There's 1 billion muslims at least that I don't think believe in the rapture, plus jews, hindus, buddhists, shinto, atheists, all of whom do not believe in the rapture, nor have a rapture like event in their pantheon.

 

ganesh, I think that's why the original poster was using the term "rapture-like" meaning only that when all those people disappeared, there would be a percentage of the population who would attribute it to an unseen force (God, gods, unseen forces, up to and including aliens, perhaps not excluding a divinity as yet undiscovered) not a Christian concept, but a divine one.  In almost all belief systems there exists an unseen force.  There's a relatively small belief system in Japan that believes God is manifested entirely through inanimate objects found in nature (stones as an example) so that belief system would likely be thrown into a bit of chaos.  

 

If I'm wrong as to your meaning,  BostonBelle, please correct me, but I didn't get the sense you meant anything tied to Jesus by the term "rapture-like" just rather "evidence of an unseen power" , but here's the thing with that, when it falls outside of a belief system (the Japanese system I just mentioned, as a for instance) it would be as likely to cause despair, I think, then to serve as any sort of comforting proof.  For most, including Pastor Not The Rapture, it stands a very good chance of throwing a belief system into chaos, vs. providing a reason to run to church (temple, mosque, statue or rock garden as the case may be).  

 

Candidly, I'm an agnostic, so I'd likely not be as freaked out because although there are versions of agnosticism that are interchangeable with atheism, in my case I skew more towards, "Maybe there is something that exists in the universe that I simply don't understand, but I believe that organized religions are just working from a fictional text they made up long ago to try and explain that"... meaning I believe in a possibility of something I don't understand or comprehend, but I'm an unbeliever in organized expressions of it as a sole access to whatever that might be.   

 

Outlining that because people like me might very well be all "Holy crow! Merciful Zeus! Fancy cats and a possible holy spirit! There IS something?  Interesting...and possibly terrifying because man is it ever arbitrary and seemingly capricious!" It's impossible to say what reaction that might spark in me, if I'd spend all my time trying to figure it out ,or essentially NONE of my time trying to figure out something that baffling.  I'm fairly certain that either way, I'd worry a lot less about diet and exercise and would be more likely to be buying ganesh a round over an inaccurate spreadsheet ;-)  

 

So even theorizing that "well, perhaps a majority of people would take this as evidence of an unseen and divine force" it's still baffling as hell because the one thing we can be certain of globally is that no matter what you believed prior to the 14th, that played no part in any scripture beforehand.  The random nature of the departed , across a huge canvas of human belief systems (including those who believe in nothing, hell, the poor atheist would likely be the most freaked the hell out of all as an atheists certainty runs in the direction of NO forces unseen exerting influence....so maybe they'd believe in plasma rays and aliens more easily than people of Faith might, not sure).  

 

As for TPTB revealing important information in supplemental interviews and extras, I have to admit, this sort of irks me too.  Either it is important enough to be included in the  show (and should be) or it is unimportant to understanding the show (in which case, not worth mentioning).   So much of this story is structured around the damned GR that an explanation of what they are being available to people who watch exterior videos, but not within the narrative, is a little maddening. 

 

That's stuff I think the story should include and whereas a Star Wars style intro might be the lazy writers device, sometimes the stage needs to be set more than I think the show has.  For instance, my sympathy for Kevin would be greater if I'd known that Laurie left him not for a higher-calling, but to believe in the power of nothingness and meaninglessness with no end goal other than to drag the rest of the world into apathetic, defeatist smoking.   I mean, that's a kick in the slats if ever there was one.  It also puts an entirely different spin on that letter she had read to him and that he didn't freak the hell out and scream his head off at her is remarkable. 

 

If the GR believes there is no family, there is no point to this life, this is all a pretense then her connection to him shouldn't matter and that letter is all a lie.  His feelings would have no meaning.  Being a good husband, being a good father, being the sort of man to raise another man's son would have no meaning and she's just placating him by pretending to give a damn about it.  Worse still, if she does give a damn about it ?  Then she's left him for something she doesn't believe and that makes it worse, not better.  

Edited August 7, 2014 by stillshimpy

[ganesh]

ganesh, I think that's why the original poster was using the term "rapture-like" meaning only that when all those people disappeared, there would be a percentage of the population who would attribute it to an unseen force (God, gods, unseen forces, up to and including aliens, perhaps not excluding a divinity as yet undiscovered) not a Christian concept, but a divine one.

 

I understand that. I'm disputing that over 3 billion people subscribe to this concept. Rapture-like is a very specific religious based concept, attributed to one religion. Maybe there are people that 'switched' and said, 'well, I guess it is the rapture.' But I don't think the majority of the world holds this opinion, which was the original statement. Simply because a majority of the world wasn't brought up within that culture. Wouldn't there be people who might think that the vanished people have been reincarnated? There's no evidence for this on the show. It's more likely to me that there would be millions of different hypotheses, rather than the majority of the world only thinking one thing. 

 

Furthermore, the show said in the first episode that it's not the rapture pretty definitively. Has anyone on the show said, "I think it's the rapture?"

 

Another problem I have with the show. People can be willfully ignorant, sure, but I think it's more likely people would be doing something to at least make a reasonable guess. Like the department Nora works for. It's hard to draw any definitive conclusions beyond one or two things because the show just hasn't provided much information at all. And I'm really having a hard time stomaching that these people would react how people would. 

 

As for TPTB revealing important information in supplemental interviews and extras, I have to admit, this sort of irks me too.  Either it is important enough to be included in the  show (and should be) or it is unimportant to understanding the show (in which case, not worth mentioning).   So much of this story is structured around the damned GR that an explanation of what they are being available to people who watch exterior videos, but not within the narrative, is a little maddening.

 

It's just bad television. It's very simple though. If it's not included onscreen, then it's not canon. I'm not opposed to online content either that supplements canon. Like, if they have an extended scene of Nora where we watch her interview all sorts of people and asking questions from the survey. It would show us all kinds of people were affected by the event and give us some insight into the survey/data collection efforts. 

 

There's a huge problem with not knowing people's pre 10/14 lives. We don't know the state of the chief's marriage, for example. Or whether the pastor was actually a good pastor and the church was always crowded. There's no context for anything. By E6, you need to answer some questions.

[stillshimpy]

I understand that. I'm disputing that over 3 billion people subscribe to this concept. Rapture-like is a very specific religious based concept, attributed to one religion.

 

Which is why I just tried to remove the Christian connotation from it, because I'm considering the remark in the context of spiritual belief and beliefs systems, vs. a specific one and how it might impact them.  Apparently not very successfully from your standpoint, but that's cool.  I think it's an interesting concept, made all the more so because pretty much no matter what someone believed -- up to and including nothing -- this would be a mindscrew.  For all the people that would say, "Proof, proof of....something?"  there seems like there would be equal numbers of "Proof, proof that the belief system I cherished was wrong, wrong, wrong....I am in a tailspin."  and still others who would embrace the "Fuck it, we don't understand anything so I'm going to eat hot fudge sundaes and not pay my taxes and fail to vote..." and still others that would wake up and say, "Every moment is precious, this proves that."  

 

Basically that there is no universal response to something this challenging, in my opinion. 

 

The only person on the show that has said the word Rapture with a Christian connotation is the Pastor who has run around saying it isn't.  Christianity obviously survives because of the manger stuff with the stolen baby Jesus, but I don't think that indicates anything about a global conversion.  

 

Just saying, despite the use of the term "Rapture" I don't think it was meant by the poster as "Christian event!" to be greeted as such, but rather "religious ...of any stripe, variety or essence....event"  but that what happened didn't actually fit with any interpretation of a religious ascension because -- for starters -- clearly not all the departed shared the same belief system (if any) and that, right there, shoots down a possible religious affiliation.  They weren't all Christians.  They weren't all Jewish people.  They weren't all Buddhists.  They weren't all Muslims.  They weren't Bahai.  Or pagan.  Or non-believers, or unbelievers.  The only thing they have in common is that they are gone, baby, gone."  

So whereas it might convince some that there is an unseen force, it doesn't fit with any religious beliefs. For any type of religion...which is a pretty important part to the entire concept of all these cults forming.  Trying to sort out meaning from the meaningless (by all known standards and belief systems, thus far).  

 

I think that would about fit if this were to really happen, because no one would get to run around saying, "We were right!"  Everybody was wrong, or wrongish.  So what happens then?  That seems to be the question posed.  

 

Now, Pastor Not the Rapture (Matt?) handing out leaflets yelling that this was not the rapture and the statue with angelic wings on the baby flying away does have a religious connotation.  So it is implied that some people took that "Wow this fits with nothing anyone believes....so we'll just pretend it fits the majority of the belief systems in this area...."  which would kind of imply that (it seems) that other belief systems would similarly search through their own scripture and decide "Uh maybe if we turn this sideways and look it while standing on our heads we can pretend it fits with what we believe?  It will just involve ignoring the living hell out of everything we've ever known and told ourselves we believed so....ha...no biggie. " 

 

Heh, presumably Unitarians are the only people saying, "We just need to expand the unity concept and we're fine!? Okay, not really?" 

 

Heh, maybe those who practice Theism are pretty jazzed, but they'd be about the only ones likely to do the dance of "we were right!" but that wouldn't be that big of a deal because Theism is not based on....well, anything other than a belief in gods or a God with no affiliation, or action by that divinity in this world.  Hell, I've just realized even Theism would take a terrible blow because there goes the non-interactive part of that ;-)  

[ottoDbusdriver]

All of the escort adds in the Mapleton Penny Saver (or whatever local paper that was, full page Samsung Galaxy product placement ad not withstanding) had 914 or 212 area codes in the adds, which places fictional Mapleton somewhere in or nearby Westchester County vs. the real Mapleton, New York  which is a hamlet located in Niagara County near Niagara Falls.  Fictional Mapleton appears to be located in its own fictional Mapleton County (one of the ads indicates outcalls to Mapleton County and Upstate).

 

One odd thing about that add for Angel -- the ad copy contains the phrase 'gabota outcalls', I've got no idea what that means.  Did a Google search on that phrase and you get absolutely nothing.

Edited August 7, 2014 by ottoDbusdriver