S03.E05: Lazarus

[Sakura12]

In his aftermath with his fight with Nightwing, anti-heroes Red Hood and Jonthan Crane reteam for the first phase of their fearsome plan. Then, through a series of flashbacks, Red Hood's origins are revealed.   

[Sakura12]

That synopsis shows that this this show is not about the Titans. And besides a random Donna appearance none of the Titans were even in it or mentioned. 

With that Donna appearance was Jason dreaming about her or is she walking around the afterlife visiting the Titans?

I've heard from the reviews that this was the best episode, but since I'm not a fan of Jason's sob story of why he became a killer. I wasn't that impressed. And wow, this Batman just sucks at every thing. How am I supposed to believe this version did anything amazing.

With all the Ra's al Ghul mentions I'm guessing we'll be meeting Damian next season. Might as well get all the Robin's on this show. Also how convenient and nice of Ra's to leave a Lazarus pit in Gotham. 

[Nellise]

I know it's been said before, but the people making this show have always seemed to want to make a Batman series, not a Titans one, so they must've been overjoyed to make this episode. And yet they've managed to make one of the most annoying and dumb versions of Batman I've ever seen.

The reviews must grade this show on a massive curve if they thought this was good. My expectations are so low already for this show and yet it continues to surprise me with its ineptness. They still didn't explain how Jason could go from one of the worst fighters ever to someone that can take over the crime world and who can now apparently teleport. Scarecrow is just embarrassing to watch.

 

 

 

[cdnalor]

Wow, long hair, pot, and Iron Butterfly?  I didn't know Crane was a boomer.  And apparently, you can set up a Lazarus pit any old place.  I always thought you had to trek out to some ancient sacred location to find it.

I didn't hate this Red Hood origin episode but did they have to use the whole thing to tell it?  Anyway, we should be back to regular Titans programming next week.

[Primal Slayer]

I found this to be rather boring and not interesting at all. Everything that has to do with Jason has been rushed to death and a character that is the bad boy version of Dick has failed miserably. Actor is great, looks great as Robin, even when he showed up it wasnt bad but the way they've done his storylines have not made things any better for him.

Is Crane like Bruce? Wherein they can use Crane but not his Scarecrow persona? because I dont know why we havent seen him all Scarecrowed up....and how does he have so much sway in Arkham that he is able to sneak away and resurrect Jason? A villain finding out Bruces identity should be pretty big but Im guessing it wont mean a thing.

And can they please stop these stupid "lets rear up a storyline only to put it on ice for an episode to explore something else" that they like to do every single season.

[KittenPokerCheater]

There's a lot to like about this episode- I liked how Bruce has learned from his mistakes with Dick and is trying to be better for Jason, who clearly needs a TON of help. 

Who took Jason's body when he was dead?

I'm annoyed with Vincent Katharser because I feel like he's badly imitating the joker from the Chris Nolan movies.

But evening knowing how messed up Jason is, and feeling some sympathy, I still don't forgive him for killing Hank. 

[AngieBee1]

Quote

I liked how Bruce has learned from his mistakes with Dick and is trying to be better for Jason, who clearly needs a TON of help. 

I loved those elements because they came straight from various comics.  When Bruce feared that Jason tossed a pimp off the roof he sent him to Dr. Leslie Thompkins. The difference is that Jason never attended a session.  And when Bruce "died" and Jason watched his video message to him Bruce apologized for not getting him the help he needed.  Also, Jason melting under Bruce calling him son.  

Quote

Who took Jason's body when he was dead? But evening knowing how messed up Jason is, and feeling some sympathy, I still don't forgive him for killing Hank. 

The two headscratchers for me. I assumed Crane and Jason had a fake out planned but no, Jason went in half cocked with no plan and got slaughtered.  I'm assuming Crane had the guy who provides him with his weed and fire at Arkham to transport dead Jason.   

Comics! Jason's motivations make sense to me. He's trying to burn it all down because Bruce didn't avenge him and because he hates how Bruce tiptoes around doing what needs to be done (in his eyes). But in this incarnation he really wants to kill the Titans because they weren't welcoming? Or chaffing at the bit under Bruce because he has the temerity to not want Jason to be a psycho? Madness.

 

 

 

[blackwing]

Pretty much the only thing I liked about this episode was seeing Batman's trophy room of stuff he stole from his rogues' gallery, displayed like in a museum.  We saw a hat/mask from Penguin, Two Face's coin, Joker's cards, Catwoman's goggles and whip, and Scarecrow's formula and burlap sack mask.  I think.  Would have been nice to have seen something from Riddler and Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze.  Was there anything I missed?

23 hours ago, Nellise said:

I know it's been said before, but the people making this show have always seemed to want to make a Batman series, not a Titans one, so they must've been overjoyed to make this episode. And yet they've managed to make one of the most annoying and dumb versions of Batman I've ever seen.

 

Agreed.  I hated just about everything about this episode.  As mentioned above, this show is called "Titans".  It's not "Batman".  This was basically a Batman show.  It was nice to get an explanation of what happened to Jason, but it didn't need to take up the entire episode.

I've said several times now, but it cannot be said enough.  I despise Iain Glen and I can't stand his Bruce Wayne.  Get some dialect coaching to speak properly.  And when Bruce called Jason his "son"... I can't be the only one to have thought, "practically more like GRANDson".  It's completely unbelievable to me that this 60 year old man is on the streets fighting crime as Batman.

I guess this episode confirms that Bruce is basically responsible for Jason turning into Red Hood.  Without Bruce's adamant "you cannot have the keys to the kingdom and your Robin suit", then Jason wouldn't have sought out Jonathan Crane.

11 hours ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Who took Jason's body when he was dead?

I'm annoyed with Vincent Katharser because I feel like he's badly imitating the joker from the Chris Nolan movies.

22 hours ago, cdnalor said:

Wow, long hair, pot, and Iron Butterfly?  I didn't know Crane was a boomer.  And apparently, you can set up a Lazarus pit any old place.  I always thought you had to trek out to some ancient sacred location to find it.

I thought Crane's goon took Jason's body.  We saw a shot of him after he rolled Jason into the Pit.

I don't care for Vincent Kartheiser.  I always found him overrated on "Mad Men".  And here, I agree, it's like he's playing a caricature of Joker.  I am so totally not here for his bad dancing or whatever that was.  He just seems so very pleased with himself.  Like he's thinking "Emmy passed me over year after year for my fantastic nuanced performance as Pete, I'll show them, it worked for Heath Ledger and Joaquin Phoenix, I'm going to be brilliantly unhinged in this role, they can't deny me an award this time!"

 

[Sakura12]

They did make it Batman's fault that Jason turned into Red Hood. Since it looked like Leslie was helping him, if he kept on seeing her he probably wouldn't have turned on to everyone. 

[Affogato]

25 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

They did make it Batman's fault that Jason turned into Red Hood. Since it looked like Leslie was helping him, if he kept on seeing her he probably wouldn't have turned on to everyone. 

It sounded to me that Jason jumped to the conclusion that Leslie had talked to bruce and ‘betrayed’ him. My feeling was that Bruce decided on his own that Jason shouldn’t act as Robin at this time. Which made perfect sense and Bruce is trying to be responsible. Good on Bruce, frankly. 

also no one would have wanted someone with that level of ptsd out there on the front lines.

So not Bruce’s fault. There is no doubt that Bruce, and Dick, did some things wrong with Jason (and should take responsibility) but it can be argued that everyone does somethings wrong sometimes. Bruce didn’t raise Dick to be a supervillain or nudge Barbara in that direction, even as both have problems with things he did. 

Jason has issues. He should have been ‘fired’ a lot sooner  

As an aside i don’t remember Bruce’s status re Jason. It is possible Bruce wouldn’t even have the legal right to talk to the therapist. 
 

How about someone upping the locks on arkham asylum?

Edited August 27, 2021 by Affogato

[Sakura12]

Jason is f'd up and shouldn't be Robin but that is Bruce's fault for taking him and and making him Robin. Jason had issues well before Bruce found him. It just seemed like Bruce thought it worked for Dick so he could try it again with Jason. 

Dick has issues too but I think he turned out somewhat okay because he had Donna to talk too and give him the pep talks that Bruce is incapable of giving. 

[Affogato]

8 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Jason is f'd up and shouldn't be Robin but that is Bruce's fault for taking him and and making him Robin. Jason had issues well before Bruce found him. It just seemed like Bruce thought it worked for Dick so he could try it again with Jason. 

Dick has issues too but I think he turned out somewhat okay because he had Donna to talk too and give him the pep talks that Bruce is incapable of giving. 

Just because  it is Bruces fault doesn’t mean it isn’t also Jason’s responsibility. at some point if he grows up at all he’ll have to face that. 
 

however I do believe that people have free will.  Dick and Jason both made their decisions as themselves. 

jason knew other people including the Titans and Barbara that he could have gone to for help. Look Dick has a lot of hostility towards Batman, but he lets him help when Dick needs it. 
 

Scarecrow was a bad choice.  Also all Jason’s choice. 
 

 

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Just because  it is Bruces fault doesn’t mean it isn’t also Jason’s responsibility. at some point if he grows up at all he’ll have to face that. 
 

however I do believe that people have free will.  Dick and Jason both made their decisions as themselves. 

jason knew other people including the Titans and Barbara that he could have gone to for help. Look Dick has a lot of hostility towards Batman, but he lets him help when Dick needs it. 
 

Scarecrow was a bad choice.  Also all Jason’s choice. 

 

 

 

[blackwing]

 

59 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Jason is f'd up and shouldn't be Robin but that is Bruce's fault for taking him and and making him Robin. Jason had issues well before Bruce found him. It just seemed like Bruce thought it worked for Dick so he could try it again with Jason. 

41 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Just because  it is Bruces fault doesn’t mean it isn’t also Jason’s responsibility. at some point if he grows up at all he’ll have to face that. 
 

however I do believe that people have free will.  Dick and Jason both made their decisions as themselves. 

jason knew other people including the Titans and Barbara that he could have gone to for help. Look Dick has a lot of hostility towards Batman, but he lets him help when Dick needs it. 
 

Scarecrow was a bad choice.  Also all Jason’s choice. 

I think all involved bear some responsibility... but I hold Bruce the most responsible, since he is the experienced adult.  His cold demeanour left Jason feeling helpless and alone.  Bruce's solution was to have Jason talk to Leslie Tompkins.  However, the way he went about it was to make it into a threat - "you're not going back on the streets as Robin until she says it's ok".  That was poor.  I thought it seemed evident that Jason's issues stemmed from fear, and from not being in control of his life.  So for Bruce to force him into a position where he wasn't in control of his decisions was not good.

Then Tompkins made the mistake of mentioning Jonathan Crane, which intrigued Jason.  Jason knew that Scarecrow's big thing was fear.  I don't necessarily think Bruce talked to Tompkins about whether Jason was ready, or whether he made the decision himself, but in the end, it didn't matter.  Bruce and Tompkins weren't helping him, so he decided to go to the source to try to get information he needed to be able to recreate the fear formula so he could take it and not feel fear.

I think Bruce is responsible for pushing Jason down this path.  I think there are others he could have talked to, like Dick.  I'm not sure why Jason saw Donna in his dream but he must have been affected by her death.  And I forget what happened to Rose after she killed Deathstroke but it seems clear she left the team and he misses her a lot.  Maybe he felt like he had nobody left to turn to.

 

 

Edited August 27, 2021 by blackwing

[Sakura12]

Did Jason dream about Donna or did she just show up from the afterlife? She also looked a little surprised to see him. 

Donna and Dick were friends in the super hero buisness, she would go talk to him or he would go to her. Jason doesn't have anyone like that in his life.  

I'm not saying Jason isn't responsible for his choices. He killed Hank just because and there is no coming back from that. That was his choice. But Bruce took in an f'd up kid and sent him out in the streets to beat up criminals with him. That was Bruce's choice. 

 

[Affogato]

58 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

 But Bruce took in an f'd up kid and sent him out in the streets to beat up criminals with him. That was Bruce's choice. 

 

Yes this show is showing us the consequences for Bruce. It looks like a big arc for the season and I’m okay with that. 
 

we are shown Jason has this girl to talk to, so their is her as well. 
 

it is well to remember when criticizing him that Bruce was a traumatized child as well. He clearly took in Dick and Jason because he felt a bond. In this episode he takes Jason to where his (bruce’s) parents were killed  

i blame a lot on the asylums open door policy too.

if I remember Jason sees a picture of graduate student crane and brings him up, not the therapist. 

Edited August 27, 2021 by Affogato

[Sakura12]

43 minutes ago, Affogato said:

we are shown Jason has this girl to talk to, so their is her as well

That girl doesn't know he's Robin though, so he can't talk to her about what he does. Dick and Donna were both Justice League side kicks. 

[blackwing]

48 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Yes this show is showing us the consequences for Bruce. It looks like a big arc for the season and I’m okay with that. 
 

we are shown Jason has this girl to talk to, so their is her as well. 
 

it is well to remember when criticizing him that Bruce was a traumatized child as well. He clearly took in Dick and Jason because he felt a bond. In this episode he takes Jason to where his (bruce’s) parents were killed  

i blame a lot on the asylums open door policy too.

if I remember Jason sees a picture of graduate student crane and brings him up, not the therapist. 

Molly didn't know he was Robin.  He went to try and find out what happened to her friend, and got beat up.  Then at the end he returns the kid to her when he is Red Hood, and she knows him now, but it's too late.  He has already been lost to the dark side.

Jason saw the picture of Crane but Tompkins shouldn't have talked about him.  She says herself that they shouldn't be talking about her but she did it anyways and elaborated.

[Affogato]

33 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Molly didn't know he was Robin.  He went to try and find out what happened to her friend, and got beat up.  Then at the end he returns the kid to her when he is Red Hood, and she knows him now, but it's too late.  He has already been lost to the dark side.

Jason saw the picture of Crane but Tompkins shouldn't have talked about him.  She says herself that they shouldn't be talking about her but she did it anyways and elaborated.

Hindsight is 20 20. Leslie knew he was Robin do it was a mutual acquaintance.

People were doing their best. Not perfect people but Jason was actively hiding his fear and feelings of inadequacyvv

[Sakura12]

Why would Jason go talk to a random woman he's never heard of? He only did that because he was forced too. 

I was only saying Dick probably turned out slightly better because he had a friend with a shared life experience to talk too. 

[Affogato]

16 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Why would Jason go talk to a random woman he's never heard of? He only did that because he was forced too. 

I was only saying Dick probably turned out slightly better because he had a friend with a shared life experience to talk too. 

I'm not criticizing you, just commenting.

Leslie, the therapist, was open with Jason when he asked her about the picture. In therapy terms that is an invitation for him to be open with her, it seems to me to be part of having therapy. I don't think she would have expected him to open the floodgates, but it is probably one of the details that made him consider coming back to see her.

The toxic male masculinity is laid on pretty thick. Dick didn't necessarily turn out better. He makes a mistake and immediately tries to commit suicide by his fellow prisoners, and headbat is really really brutal to him and Dick isn't going to therapy or even opening up to his friends (even if he had friends to talk to at one time). Bruce and Jason are also swimming in toxic masculinity. Jason commits suicide by Joker and The Bat kind of does the same thing. Come to think of it Bruce talks to Lex on the phone--another example, along with the scarecrow.

I just think that Dick and Bruce are trying to do better. Jason really isn't at this time, Jason wants to be the toxic male ideal he is pretending to be.

No wonder Barbara is just pissed off all the time.

[Affogato]

I think this version of Scarecrow would be less scary in a mask or costume. The references to the different Hannibal Lecter movies (silence of the Lambs, Manhunter) is well done.

I get that Bruce can get into Arkham if he wants, but why is security so bad?

[tennisgurl]

So many episodes feel like Backdoor pilots to a Batman show, you can really tell that the show runners wanted to make a Batman show but couldn't so now they're trying to add as much Batman stuff as I can. I like Batman mythology too, but I came here to watch Titans, not "Batfam and also some other people". 

So we get some of why Jason became the Red Hood, and its not awful but I really need this season to slow the fuck down, I seriously need to stop and catch my breath we're moving so fast. I do feel sympathy for Jason and I can see why he's become so messed up, but I wish we had spread this backstory out, and I still am not in the mood to be forgiving towards Jason after he blew Hank up.

I do like how Bruce is trying to be a better mentor after ruminating on how things went with Dick, but he still hasn't quite nailed it.

[AngieBee1]

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I get that Bruce can get into Arkham if he wants, but why is security so bad?

I think it's indicative of how lawless Gotham is. A place rife with crime and desperation is going to have people on the take: cops, politicians, prison guards.

[Hanahope]

Really I’m supposed to feel sympathy for Jason?  A lot of people have fucked up lives but they don’t seek out or become criminals 

[millennium]

On 8/27/2021 at 9:44 AM, blackwing said:

Pretty much the only thing I liked about this episode was seeing Batman's trophy room of stuff he stole from his rogues' gallery, displayed like in a museum.  We saw a hat/mask from Penguin, Two Face's coin, Joker's cards, Catwoman's goggles and whip, and Scarecrow's formula and burlap sack mask.  I think.  Would have been nice to have seen something from Riddler and Poison Ivy and Mr. Freeze.  Was there anything I missed?

I would have liked to see the mechanical T-Rex and the giant penny.

[Ottis]

This was a really interesting episode. I skipped the prior one, Hawk and Dove, because of lack of interest. Loved the psychological study of Bruce and Jason and Scarecrow and the psychologist. No stupid “who wuvs who” crap.

 Made me more sympathetic to Jason, which I would not have thought possible. And impressed by the Joker here, just dispatching Robin post haste. Wasn’t a fan of the secret pool, though.

The actress who plays Barbara has a terrible actress laugh.

[CletusMusashi]

Two main thoughts left with me from this episode.

1. I hate non-linear narrative. Oh, I don't mean an occasional flashback to give you some inormation that you didn't even know you needed yet, but when they time-jump around between episodes just to glaringly withhold explanations because they think that's being mysterious... it's just insulting to the viewer. Why couldn't they have just told the story of Jason's descent in chronological order. Okay, sure, maybe once he turned evil we wouldn't have as much to wonder about any more, but how is that worse than having to stand around "Um... when did all this resurrection shit happen?' until they finally decide to bother explaining it? Just try telling the story in order, and if the lack of mystery really hurts it that much, then perhaps also try telling the story better. and

2. Molly knew where Jason was staying when he was with the Titans? How do any of these people have secret identities? I mean, at least Superman pretends to have a different address than Clark Kent...

[Quark]

Not such a fan of this episode and nothing was particularly surprising. It still doesn't make sense that Jason has become so evil that he would kill Hank in the way he did.

I need more Starfire.

[moonshine71]

On 10/5/2021 at 3:43 PM, Quark said:

Not such a fan of this episode and nothing was particularly surprising. It still doesn't make sense that Jason has become so evil that he would kill Hank in the way he did.

I need more Starfire.

Everyone seems to draw the line of "beyond redemption" at killing Hank.

He already murdered a like a dozen innocent, random civilians with the woman who he forced to bomb a building. There is no redemption from that, imo. He should never get out of a prison cell once he is caught, anything else is just spitting in the face of the orphans and widows of all those people.