The Winchesters Anticipation

[DeeDee79]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

I can't count how many times I've seen the audience saying a great idea for a prequel would be John after Mary's death.

Or people that wished that Amara had brought John back instead of Mary just to see his relationship improve with his sons. 

[Myrelle]

16 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

But young John and Mary were not.   Its like watching The Star Wars prequels and seeing Anakin Skywalker be the complete opposite of Darth Vader.  They are different characters

ITA that young John and Mary were different characters from the John and Mary that we were given from the Pilot onwards and In The Beginning  and The Song Remains the Same gave us brief glimpses of those characters, so there's no complete re-writing of the characters/story involved here. Not if one has followed the show from beginning to end, that is.

It's canon that John and Mary were once young, hopeful, and madly in love with each other. The why(which could also have been a lie because let's not forget "writers lie" is canon also on this show)doesn't and shouldn't matter as much since angels hadn't walked the earth for two thousand years and apparently weren't even thought of by most humans, except in normal, passing conversations(not unlike many conversations people often have in real life); and as for the hunting aspect, and as many have already pointed out, mind wipes are also a well established canon on this show.

They are expanding on the early versions of the characters AND on the later versions of the characters too.

And I think it's smarter of Jensen and co. to have the prequel go with the younger, earlier, and more likable versions of the characters-especially if their aim is to somewhat soften the ones who came later.

And yes, the Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader example is apropos here because, even at their worst, John and Mary never achieved villain status to rival that example, and yet, it still worked even so. 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

TA that young John and Mary were different characters from the John and Mary that we were given from the Pilot onwards and In The Beginning  and The Song Remains the Same gave us brief glimpses of those characters, so there's no complete re-writing of the characters involved here. 

Exactly.  IMO, a complete re-write of the character would have been Dabb's version of Mary, who went from hating hunting and wanting out to abandoning her husband and son to go hunting and one who didn't even seem to like her children.

 

[Myrelle]

Just now, ILoveReading said:

Exactly.  IMO, a complete re-write of the character would have been Dabb's version of Mary, who went from hating hunting and wanting out to abandoning her husband and son to go hunting and one who didn't even seem to like her children.

 

This! So much!!

 

[tessathereaper]

On 4/11/2022 at 3:36 PM, Casseiopeia said:

Up until the prequel was announced John and Mary were two of the most despised characters in the series. Besides that the series is supposed to deal with a very short period of time in John and Mary's life that we all know about. It does seem like Robbie is going to try to reinvent the characters into more likeable people but I can't see how they are going to make a long term series about a guy who turns into an abusive ass who dumped his issues on one son and a mom who betrayed the other son and who continued to betray and abandon them when she was resurrected.

I would have been a lot more excited if they had chosen a different story.  I'm still going to watch it and if it does go to series I'm also sure it will be a huge success.

 We met young John and Mary, just TWICE, for what mounted to a total or 2 or 3 days.  And you know what?  Young John and Mary were VERY likeable people. People liked young John and Mary a lot.  We don't "know" about their lives, we know about a few days of their lives and we know a few short anecdotes.  That leaves nearly 2000 days of their lives we know very little about during the 5 year period the show could possibly cover.

People change and not always for the better, it doesn't mean their stories aren't worth knowing or aren't interesting.  

 

Also for what's worth some of the crew have posted little bits of outdoor and building scenery and it looks like it's going to be atmospheric and gorgeous.  We've got Jay Gruska on music, which should give a vein of continuity between the mothership and the new show.

Edited April 13, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Smad]

Wonder if they will touch on the big part the angels played in regards to their relationship or if the show will just ignore that and retcon it. It wouldn't surprise me if they did. After all this is Supernatural where retcons have retcons have retcons. But it's a fact that John and Mary actually hated each other (when they had free will) and the angels send a cupid to them to force them to fall in love so they could give birth to Sam and Dean.

[Myrelle]

16 hours ago, Smad said:

After all this is Supernatural where retcons have retcons have retcons. But it's a fact that John and Mary actually hated each other (when they had free will) and the angels send a cupid to them to force them to fall in love so they could give birth to Sam and Dean

And again I must call attention to the worst enemy this show ever made into a showrunner-one Andrew Dabb(or Andre Badd to some of us). When he decided to turn the all knowing but invisible God and creator of the SPN world into nothing more than just another bad writer who lies when it suits his purposes to lie, he basically rendered everything that came before moot; and as for "facts"-well, tbh, that's no longer a thing if one accepts S12-15 as being part and parcel of the mothership. Anything can be said to have simply been one of God the Bad Writer's lies-even the business of the angels making/forcing John and Mary to love one another or that they ever really "hated" each other. 

I just wonder if Dabb in his quest to undo all that came before his reign ever realized that that particular re-write of his might just turn out to be something that could also be cleverly used to restore the show to what it was meant to be from the beginning. 

Somehow, I don't think or feel that he saw that ever happening. 

 

[tessathereaper]

17 hours ago, Smad said:

Wonder if they will touch on the big part the angels played in regards to their relationship or if the show will just ignore that and retcon it. It wouldn't surprise me if they did. After all this is Supernatural where retcons have retcons have retcons. But it's a fact that John and Mary actually hated each other (when they had free will) and the angels send a cupid to them to force them to fall in love so they could give birth to Sam and Dean.

It's not actually a "fact", it's the word of a single, never seen before or again Cupid who was NOT even the Cupid who "got John and Mary together". His story was basically hearsay.  It could easily turn into they decide to "make sure John and Mary get together" and actually everything they do managed to just get them angry at each other, despite their natural attraction to each other, and then in the end they end up getting together because even the inept heavenly interference can't squelch their love. So they get together in spite of heavenly interference instead of because of it.

Plus what the cupids do is actually pretty much left up for interpretation. There are Enochian sigils as a mark but we don't exactly what they do, just that they are mark meaning an angel was involved, but otherwise nothing is really explained, it's mostly unexplained assumptions. 

If they just mostly create situations that put the destined couple together until the situation hits on the things that causes them to fall in love, then it's still free will, just free will given some extra nudges.

[Casseiopeia]

 

[tessathereaper]

A nice interview with our new Mary is here, she mentions the show in answer to a couple of questions.  She seems very sweet.

https://www.jejunemagazine.com/home/meg-donnelly

 

[Casseiopeia]

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[gonzosgirrl]

2 hours ago, Hana Chan said:

I don't doubt that Jensen loves SPN. What I question is the judgement of using John and Mary as the focus for the first major post-SPN series. We know their story and it sounds far too much like in order to make the series work that a bunch of things are going to be retconned. If the John and Mary story doesn't flow neatly into the canon series and the mature characters as we know them, then it's just not going to work for me. I don't have a problem with Jensen's production company playing in the SPN pool, but trying to rewrite a story that we already know just feels like bad fanfic.

I would be much more interested in exploring the SPN world through new characters and a different setting (the world of Samuel Colt would have been fascinating), but we'll have to see how this plays out. The SPN universe has so much potential and I'd love to see it actually expanded and not just revisiting the same characters.

 

Brought over from Public Appearance thread for topic.

It's been said/implied many times, and IMO proven by the failure of the two previous attempts at a spin-off,  but TPTB were never going to be interested in a spin-off that doesn't involve the Winchesters. Jensen has repeatedly said that they have created a story that uses canon* as their tent-poles, but finds interesting ways to get to those points. This weekend, he referenced Kim Manners' lesson of giving people what they want, but in a way they don't expect it. I was skeptical of a John and Mary story, since canon has made me dislike the characters entirely - but I'm confident enough in Jensen and Robbie to tell a story that maybe changes/softens the 'canon' that Dabb destroyed.

 

*canon went out the window when they allowed Dabb to re-write Mary's story. If they 'ret-con' that hatchet job, I'm 100% okay with that.

[Casseiopeia]

22 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Brought over from Public Appearance thread for topic.

It's been said/implied many times, and IMO proven by the failure of the two previous attempts at a spin-off,  but TPTB were never going to be interested in a spin-off that doesn't involve the Winchesters. Jensen has repeatedly said that they have created a story that uses canon* as their tent-poles, but finds interesting ways to get to those points. This weekend, he referenced Kim Manners' lesson of giving people what they want, but in a way they don't expect it. I was skeptical of a John and Mary story, since canon has made me dislike the characters entirely - but I'm confident enough in Jensen and Robbie to tell a story that maybe changes/softens the 'canon' that Dabb destroyed.

 

*canon went out the window when they allowed Dabb to re-write Mary's story. If they 'ret-con' that hatchet job, I'm 100% okay with that.

It does sound like WB is bringing in some pretty heavy hitters to make sure the spinoff is a success.

[gonzosgirrl]

52 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It does sound like WB is bringing in some pretty heavy hitters to make sure the spinoff is a success.

Such as?

[Aithne]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Brought over from Public Appearance thread for topic.

It's been said/implied many times, and IMO proven by the failure of the two previous attempts at a spin-off,  but TPTB were never going to be interested in a spin-off that doesn't involve the Winchesters.

I mean, I'm not either. That's why it was moronic to kill both of the leads off in the finale. I'm not interested in the hunter world, I'm not into Samuel Colt, I don't need a side character spinoff. 

Know the prequel I *really* want? Dean and John, the Stanford years, done with JA and JDM deepfakes. It won't happen, but I'd be there with bells on.

Because at the end of the day, this family is what hooked me on this show. Their tragedy, and how they found meaning in it, and those endless Midwest roads with small towns and monsters lurking. Is this a perfect idea for a spinoff, to me? Eh. I care waaaaay more about Dean than I care about either of his parents. But I care waaaaay more about his parents than I care about most other characters on this show. So of the possible spinoff ideas, it's one of the few I'm actually gonna give a try to. 

[Hana Chan]

 

On 4/13/2022 at 2:40 PM, tessathereaper said:

We met young John and Mary, just TWICE, for what mounted to a total or 2 or 3 days.  And you know what?  Young John and Mary were VERY likeable people. People liked young John and Mary a lot.  We don't "know" about their lives, we know about a few days of their lives and we know a few short anecdotes.  That leaves nearly 2000 days of their lives we know very little about during the 5 year period the show could possibly cover.

We might have only met young John and Mary a few times, but their histories are very solidly established in the SPN lore. Maybe we don't know precisely how they met or where they went on their first dates or what they had for dinner, but we know the end point. We know that Mary was raised as a hunter while John had no clue about the supernatural until long after Mary's death. We know that Mary made the deal with Azazel to save John (condemning Sam as a result) and that she broke ties with her family. We know that John knew nothing about his heritage as a Man of Letters and that he didn't start learning about monsters and hunting until after Mary died and he spent the rest of his life trying to kill the thing that killed her. Sure, there are a few small blank spots to fill in here and there, but I can't see how you're going to create a series that spans an extended period without risking making the new storyline a bad fit with what we know these characters will end up as.

I would not have minded a John-centric show with young Dean and baby Sam in tow as he started discovering the supernatural world and unraveled the mystery about Mary's death. Actually seeing what happened to John and how he evolved from the loving family man to a hardened hunter is a spinoff that I wouldn't mind watching. Retconning John's and Mary's history in order to make a series isn't.

And that is a huge problem for Jensen. The interest in this series by SPN fans is lukewarm (to be generous) and I think that he knows it. Telling fans at the NJ con that he's okay if people "hate watch" The Winchesters because that means more viewers doesn't imply that he's got a ton of confidence about it. He knows that he needs to capture a large portion of the SPN audience and try to get viewers who never saw or liked the original show. To me, it seems like we're being set up for diminishing returns. I'm not hoping that the show fails because that hurts the chances for more SPN content in the future. I'll give it a chance, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm at all enthusiastic about it. And I do wonder that if Jensen weren't the one trying to get the show off the ground if there would be even a fraction of the interest, or if it would join Bloodlines and Wayward Sisters as another failed spinoff idea.

[Aithne]

Of course the interest would be minimal if this was another Dabb pilot. Imo he ran the original show into the ground - I'll never check out another project of his again. 

[tessathereaper]

59 minutes ago, Hana Chan said:

 

We might have only met young John and Mary a few times, but their histories are very solidly established in the SPN lore. Maybe we don't know precisely how they met or where they went on their first dates or what they had for dinner, but we know the end point. We know that Mary was raised as a hunter while John had no clue about the supernatural until long after Mary's death. We know that Mary made the deal with Azazel to save John (condemning Sam as a result) and that she broke ties with her family. We know that John knew nothing about his heritage as a Man of Letters and that he didn't start learning about monsters and hunting until after Mary died and he spent the rest of his life trying to kill the thing that killed her. Sure, there are a few small blank spots to fill in here and there, but I can't see how you're going to create a series that spans an extended period without risking making the new storyline a bad fit with what we know these characters will end up as.

I would not have minded a John-centric show with young Dean and baby Sam in tow as he started discovering the supernatural world and unraveled the mystery about Mary's death. Actually seeing what happened to John and how he evolved from the loving family man to a hardened hunter is a spinoff that I wouldn't mind watching. Retconning John's and Mary's history in order to make a series isn't.

And that is a huge problem for Jensen. The interest in this series by SPN fans is lukewarm (to be generous) and I think that he knows it. Telling fans at the NJ con that he's okay if people "hate watch" The Winchesters because that means more viewers doesn't imply that he's got a ton of confidence about it. He knows that he needs to capture a large portion of the SPN audience and try to get viewers who never saw or liked the original show. To me, it seems like we're being set up for diminishing returns. I'm not hoping that the show fails because that hurts the chances for more SPN content in the future. I'll give it a chance, but I'm not going to pretend that I'm at all enthusiastic about it. And I do wonder that if Jensen weren't the one trying to get the show off the ground if there would be even a fraction of the interest, or if it would join Bloodlines and Wayward Sisters as another failed spinoff idea.

LOL Please every single prequel ever pretty much starts with a story that has a known endpoint.  YES the point of a prequel is the journey, not the destination.  So that right there is a non-argument IMO.  Because that is the same argument for John hunting with the kids, we know MORE about Dean and Sam's childhood than we do about Mary and John's pre-child years.  So how is that not the same argument?

As for other characters, gee they've tried that already and no one gave a damn, so I wonder why they don't try that route again?  Hmmm...what could be the reasons?

Actually what Jensen's comment says is that he knows how the fandom bullies are acting, you know the ones who are hating just to hate and NOTHING will change their minds and he literally was giving back EXACTLY what they do. The fact that most of those people aren't self-aware to see that he was literally just turning around what they say back on them is kind of hysterical.  He was joking around, which unsurprisingly went over their heads, as it usually does. 

Haters gonna hate but it also means no one has to worry about pleasing them either.

Edited April 25, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Such as?

Glen Winter a director that was part of the pilot's of Smallville (probably how Jensen knows him), Arrow, The Flash among others. I guess he is known for helping to launch pilots for the CW. 

The WB/CW expect this to be a huge success. A lot of funding and effort is going into this project to make sure it is. I really expect it to be very successful. No matter how many reservations I might have personally.

5 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

LOL Please every single prequel ever pretty much starts with a story that has a known endpoint.  YES the point of a prequel is the journey, not the destination.  So that right there is a non-argument IMO.  Because that is the same argument for John hunting with the kids, we know MORE about Dean and Sam's childhood than we do about Mary and John's pre-child years.  So how is that not the same argument?

Actually what Jensen's comment says is that he knows how the fandom bullies are acting, you know the ones who are hating just to hate and NOTHING will change their minds and he literally was giving back EXACTLY what they do. The fact that most of those people aren't self-aware to see that he was literally just turning around what they say back on them is kind of hysterical.  He was joking around, which unsurprisingly went over their heads, as it usually does. 

Haters gonna hate but it also means no one has to worry about pleasing them either.

I also think he was trying to reassure fans who have doubts about the prequel. Not all of us hate the idea of the prequel it's just the subject matter. But most fans are not going to "hate" watch the show. Most of us really want to love it.

Edited April 25, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Actually what Jensen's comment says is that he knows how the fandom bullies are acting, you know the ones who are hating just to hate and NOTHING will change their minds and he literally was giving back EXACTLY what they do. The fact that most of those people aren't self-aware to see that he was literally just turning around what they say back on them is kind of hysterical.  He was joking around, which unsurprisingly went over their heads, as it usually does. 

Haters gonna hate but it also means no one has to worry about pleasing them either.

This was one of the best things that came out of the con this weekend, AFAIC.

He was clearly joking about the hate watching, IMO; and in everything that came after that, too; and ITA with the rest of this, too.

And gosh, it was just so good to see him not kow tow to that one small and very annoying segment of fandom after everything they've done to try and sabotage this project. They've dogpiled negatively on every article that comes out about it and bring up Prequelgate whenever they can, too(and it kind of makes me wonder if MC's little quip about them threatening to burn his house down was real too).

Yeah. He knows things and he's had enough of it was the vibe that I got from him at this con and as far as that's concerned.

And I say good for him, if that's the case because I seriously doubt that their approval(which he likely knows he will never get, no matter what he says or does, at this point)will make or break this show.

I think the "tent pole" allusion was a great and terrific way to try and give some insight into what their plan is without giving too much away and he added that once people see what they've created, he'll be more than happy to expand on that premise.

And yes, having him attached to this makes a great deal of difference because as he also said at this con-he's not some random dude with an idea for this show. He knows this show inside and out, knows the canon, knows the characters, was there from the very beginning until the end. He is a huge fan of the show, too. That has to be obvious to even his biggest detractors, IMO, and if all of that isn't enough to encourage someone to just give it a try, well, then that's that.

Not much else a person can do other than give it your best and your all, which many of us know this man has always strived and tried to do with everything in him and with everything and anything he's ever taken on-so yes, having Jensen attached to it makes a world of difference to no few of us.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2022 by Myrelle

[catrox14]

I was thinking about John not knowing about the Men of Letters..I think that could be an easy one to cover.  John lies. John knew about Sam being the target of Azazel...if IIRC or at least something happened to him..that he did t tell Dean about until he made the deal with Azazel..  so maybe he did know about the MoL all along and died before he told the boys. It think that is the easiest one to "fix".

[ahrtee]

3 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I was thinking about John not knowing about the Men of Letters..I think that could be an easy one to cover.  John lies. John knew about Sam being the target of Azazel...if IIRC or at least something happened to him..that he did t tell Dean about until he made the deal with Azazel..  so maybe he did know about the MoL all along and died before he told the boys. It think that is the easiest one to "fix".

Apparently there was no active chapter of the MoL in America after the Abbadon massacre in Kansas, or I would think at the very least Bobby or the Campbells would have known of them.  But we know the British version was still around.  So I could imagine them sending people over to find out what the hell happened, and (possibly) looking up the "legacies," including John.  And, if that version of the BMoL was as obnoxious as the later version, I can also see John deciding not to have anything to do with them, much less letting them have any contact with his kids.  And especially wanting to keep them away from Sam, since we know how the MoL would have dealt with children tainted with demon blood.  

Other parts of canon that are problematic--why John said he was a "mechanic from a family of mechanics," why the guy in Lawrence said to "say hi to your old man," when we learned (later) that John's father had abandoned him as a child (and why he was told he'd been abandoned rather than that his father had died in a fire in the "gentleman's club" his wife obviously knew about)--those can be explained without any real retcon. 

My favorite idea:  while Henry's wife knew about the club, when they counted bodies after the fire and Henry and Josie weren't among them, she might have assumed they ran off together; or, to be kind, if she knew about the MoL, that something supernatural had happened to Henry; and when he didn't return, eventually remarried a mechanic.  Whether or not she told John about the MoL, John did believe Henry had abandoned him and wanted nothing to do with him or his "legacy."  All that can fit in with what we've been hearing about Millie and John knowing about the MoL in the prequel.

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by ahrtee
Henry, not John.

[DeeDee79]

29 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Apparently there was no active chapter of the MoL in America after the Abbadon massacre in Kansas, or I would think at the very least Bobby or the Campbells would have known of them.  But we know the British version was still around.  So I could imagine them sending people over to find out what the hell happened, and (possibly) looking up the "legacies," including John.  And, if that version of the BMoL was as obnoxious as the later version, I can also see John deciding not to have anything to do with them, much less letting them have any contact with his kids.  And especially wanting to keep them away from Sam, since we know how the MoL would have dealt with children tainted with demon blood.  

Other parts of canon that are problematic--why John said he was a "mechanic from a family of mechanics," why the guy in Lawrence said to "say hi to your old man," when we learned (later) that John's father had abandoned him as a child (and why he was told he'd been abandoned rather than that his father had died in a fire in the "gentleman's club" his wife obviously knew about)--those can be explained without any real retcon. 

My favorite idea:  while John's wife knew about the club, when they counted bodies after the fire and John and Josie weren't among them, she might have assumed they ran off together; or, to be kind, if she knew about the MoL, that something supernatural had happened to Henry; and when he didn't return, eventually remarried a mechanic.  Whether or not she told John about the MoL, John did believe Henry had abandoned him and wanted nothing to do with him or his "legacy."  All that can fit in with what we've been hearing about Millie and John knowing about the MoL in the prequel.

 

All really interesting ideas! Personally I wanted to know more about John's side of the family during SPN. What we found out about Henry was interesting and I was curious as to why his wife was never even mentioned. Outside of the MOL the show went into more depth with the Campbells but I would have liked to learn more about the Winchesters as well. I'm looking forward to seeing how the family history is fleshed out in the prequel.

[Aithne]

Could Millie could be the mechanic he was referring to?

[ahrtee]

4 minutes ago, Aithne said:

Could Millie could be the mechanic he was referring to?

I thought about that.  It's possible, though still doesn't address the "say hi to your dad" quote.  The Henry we met doesn't really seem the type to even know mechanics, of course...

[TheView]

In the leaked script that briefly circulated, John finds out about Mary's hunting right off the bat. And Deanna is portrayed incredibly unsympathetically. And Mary is a complete brat. It was NETWORK DRAFT #4. 

Edited April 25, 2022 by TheView

[DeeDee79]

19 minutes ago, TheView said:

In the leaked script that briefly circulated, John finds out about Mary's hunting right off the bat. And Deanna is portrayed incredibly unsympathetically. And Mary is a complete brat. It was NETWORK DRAFT #4. 

Interesting. 🤨

[gonzosgirrl]

1 hour ago, TheView said:

In the leaked script that briefly circulated, John finds out about Mary's hunting right off the bat. And Deanna is portrayed incredibly unsympathetically. And Mary is a complete brat. It was NETWORK DRAFT #4. 

Jensen debunked this 'leak' at the con this weekend.

It starts around 3:20 here. Of course people are free to believe whatever they wish. I believe Jensen.

Edited April 26, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[Aithne]

47 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jensen debunked this 'leak' at the con this weekend.

It starts around 3:20 here. Of course people are free to believe whatever they wish. I believe Jensen.

Oh, very interesting! 

[tessathereaper]

11 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Jensen debunked this 'leak' at the con this weekend.

It starts around 3:20 here. Of course people are free to believe whatever they wish. I believe Jensen.

He sort of debunks it, he never actually says it's fake. There's some wiggle room in the language he uses.  Either way, I liked the "leaked' or fake script, keeping in mind it wasn't the final project, and I'm sure I will like the final script that ends up as the pilot even if that other script didn't have a spec of truth in it besides the names even better.  I mean we still have the genuine character descriptions and they all sound really good, and interesting.

[Bergamot]

19 hours ago, Aithne said:

Know the prequel I *really* want? Dean and John, the Stanford years, done with JA and JDM deepfakes. It won't happen, but I'd be there with bells on.

Yes! I would absolutely be there too! 😃 That would be a fascinating story to see.

20 hours ago, Aithne said:

Because at the end of the day, this family is what hooked me on this show. Their tragedy, and how they found meaning in it, and those endless Midwest roads with small towns and monsters lurking.

Yes! This is an excellent summation of what pulled me into the show as well.

20 hours ago, Aithne said:

Is this a perfect idea for a spinoff, to me? Eh. I care waaaaay more about Dean than I care about either of his parents. But I care waaaaay more about his parents than I care about most other characters on this show. So of the possible spinoff ideas, it's one of the few I'm actually gonna give a try to. 

Me too. I hope we get a chance to see it.

 

18 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

every single prequel ever pretty much starts with a story that has a known endpoint

Yes, this is pretty much the last thing I would be concerned about in regard to The Winchesters. As a big fan of genre shows and movies, I don't find this to be a problem. The X-Men movies, the Star Trek universe, the Star Wars universe, among others -- they are full of prequels. I am used to this way of telling a story.  For me that would be like saying that I can't watch the new Obi-Wan Kenobi series on the Disney channel because "we already know how the story ends" for him. I have known how the story ends on Tatooine since 1977, and I am still looking forward to seeing it!

I don't know if this is a good metaphor or not, but for me it is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. You know from the picture on the box exactly what the final result will look like, but the pleasure comes from seeing how all those pieces get fit together to make that picture. It can be very satisfying!

 

[tessathereaper]

7 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes! I would absolutely be there too! 😃 That would be a fascinating story to see.

Yes! This is an excellent summation of what pulled me into the show as well.

Me too. I hope we get a chance to see it.

 

Yes, this is pretty much the last thing I would be concerned about in regard to The Winchesters. As a big fan of genre shows and movies, I don't find this to be a problem. The X-Men movies, the Star Trek universe, the Star Wars universe, among others -- they are full of prequels. I am used to this way of telling a story.  For me that would be like saying that I can't watch the new Obi-Wan Kenobi series on the Disney channel because "we already know how the story ends" for him. I have known how the story ends on Tatooine since 1977, and I am still looking forward to seeing it!

I don't know if this is a good metaphor or not, but for me it is like putting together a jigsaw puzzle. You know from the picture on the box exactly what the final result will look like, but the pleasure comes from seeing how all those pieces get fit together to make that picture. It can be very satisfying!

 

That IS a great metaphor.  I've used the Star Wars example too!  LOL  Knowing how something ends, knowing parts of the story, it's like "and...so...?" to me.

[gonzosgirrl]

43 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

He sort of debunks it, he never actually says it's fake. There's some wiggle room in the language he uses.  Either way, I liked the "leaked' or fake script, keeping in mind it wasn't the final project, and I'm sure I will like the final script that ends up as the pilot even if that other script didn't have a spec of truth in it besides the names even better.  I mean we still have the genuine character descriptions and they all sound really good, and interesting.

First he responds with the 'reel them in' thing and says 'they floated that stuff for a reason', which implies they did some leaking of their own. But in the very next sentence he says 'there was a script that hit... perfect (sarcastically)... that's nothing like what it.. that's nothing like the real script'. To me, there doesn't seem to be much wiggle room in those words. So either it was 'real' and they tested the waters then changed it (unlikely, IMO) or it was never real to begin with. Either way, it's not the script for the pilot.

Edited April 26, 2022 by gonzosgirrl

[Casseiopeia]

5 hours ago, tessathereaper said:

That IS a great metaphor.  I've used the Star Wars example too!  LOL  Knowing how something ends, knowing parts of the story, it's like "and...so...?" to me.

It's not just about knowing how the Star Wars prequel ends in the og movies. It's  about not changing the narrative of the original trilogy. The subsequent movies just fleshed out the history of the stories already hinted at. They didn't turn Luke into a character that already knew his father was Darth Vader then had to be Jedi mind wiped.

When I say the story of John and Mary are already known I meant why change it? Having John already know about hunting long before Dean is born is a pretty big left turn from what we know.  There were so many other stories they could have told.

[gonzosgirrl]

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

When I say the story of John and Mary are already known I meant why change it? Having John already know about hunting long before Dean is born is a pretty big left turn from what we know.  There were so many other stories they could have told.

There really weren't if it is to be related to the Winchesters. They could have told the story of the years between Mary burning and Sam going off to Stanford, I suppose - but I know I wouldn't be interested in 'child' Dean and Sam, and telling stories about John meeting Bobby, Rufus, the Harvelles etc., would pretty much be rehashing the same things that happened in the mother-ship and even more hamstrung by 'canon'. 

[tessathereaper]

17 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

It's not just about knowing how the Star Wars prequel ends in the og movies. It's  about not changing the narrative of the original trilogy. The subsequent movies just fleshed out the history of the stories already hinted at. They didn't turn Luke into a character that already knew his father was Darth Vader then had to be Jedi mind wiped.

When I say the story of John and Mary are already known I meant why change it? Having John already know about hunting long before Dean is born is a pretty big left turn from what we know.  There were so many other stories they could have told.

No there really isn't, imo.  It's been explained why this is the story they went with.  You act like CW was just going to say "yes" to anything, they were not going to say yes to another show that had nothing to do with the Winchester(or Winchester/Campbell) family, that's pretty much all there is to it. 

John and Mary's story isn't being changed, not if it ends up in the same place, In between the 3 or 4 days and maybe 4 or 5 anecdotes we know about their pre Dean and Sam life(something 1800 days between 1972 and 1977) a lot can happen.  As long as everything we DO know, what little there is, is in place and happens as we know it, nothing has been changed beyond they don't match up with people's headcanons on what happened on the +/-1800 days we don't know about the original show.

Plenty of Star Wars complained about how the prequels "changed things"  "Waaaaah Midichlorians!!!!! Waaah the Force is supposed to be spiritual and anyone can do it". Yet the Midichlorians went against literally NOTHING except their own headcanons(and perhaps EU materials but the EU were never claimed as canon).  Now? Almost no one cares about there midichlorian explanation anymore. 

Edited April 26, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Aithne]

 

36 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

When I say the story of John and Mary are already known I meant why change it? Having John already know about hunting long before Dean is born is a pretty big left turn from what we know.  There were so many other stories they could have told.

Being totally honest with you here, there aren't that many stories I'm interested in. I would've followed Dean into his later years - how he transitioned from active hunting to mentoring or whatever he ended up doing. 

But aside from that and my Stanford years impossible dream spinoff, I don't think there's much I would've wanted to watch. None of the side characters are enough to sustain a show imo. Sam's kid? Nah. A totally recasted Weechesters series? Nah. Mary and John with  Dean narrating is as close as they can get to the actual family I care about, within the confines of what they did in the main show.

Edited April 26, 2022 by Aithne

[tessathereaper]

1 minute ago, Aithne said:

Being totally honest with you here, there's no one 

I would've followed Dean into his later years - how he transitioned from active hunting to mentoring or whatever he ended up doing. 

But aside from that and my Stanford years impossible dream spinoff, I don't think there's much I would've wanted to watch. None of the side characters are enough to sustain a show imo. Sam's kid? Nah. A totally recasted Weechesters series? Nah. Mary and John with  Dean narrating is as close as they can get to the actual family I care about, within the confines of what they did in the main show.

Yeah I have zero interest in the Weechesters or in fact any show that has Dean and Sam played by anyone other than Jensen and Jared.  I'm not that interested in the other characters, Bobby and Rufus?  Love them, because they are Jim Beaver and Steven Williams mainly.  I seriously doubt I'd have any interest in a show where they were played by other people.

[Aithne]

8 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Yeah I have zero interest in the Weechesters or in fact any show that has Dean and Sam played by anyone other than Jensen and Jared.  I'm not that interested in the other characters, Bobby and Rufus?  Love them, because they are Jim Beaver and Steven Williams mainly.  I seriously doubt I'd have any interest in a show where they were played by other people.

Yeah, it's the "played by other people" thing that's the sticking point. I don't mind as much for John and Mary as I would for Dean and Sam, because I don't feel like I have a major headcanon about who they are at these ages. For Bobby and Rufus, I feel like their appeal is 80% because they're crotchety old men. Young Bobby and Rufus probably wouldn't do it for me. 

[tessathereaper]

6 minutes ago, Aithne said:

Yeah, it's the "played by other people" thing that's the sticking point. I don't mind as much for John and Mary as I would for Dean and Sam, because I don't feel like I have a major headcanon about who they are at these ages. For Bobby and Rufus, I feel like their appeal is 80% because they're crotchety old men. Young Bobby and Rufus probably wouldn't do it for me. 

LOL I was going to say the same thing, but then didn't, about crotchety old men being a major part of their appeal for me.  

And yeah while JDM is obviously set for middle aged John, I don't have any major sticking points for John and Mary.  Loved Matt and Amy when they played the roles but again, it doesn't have to be THEM.  No one for me is so associated with John and Mary that I have an issue with them being played by someone else for their younger selves.  As long as they have roughly the right look, blond and light eyes for Mary, dark hair and dark eyes for John and Meg and Drake probably bare a bit more resemblance to Jensen and Jared then Matt and Amy did so.

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by tessathereaper

[Bergamot]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

They didn't turn Luke into a character that already knew his father was Darth Vader then had to be Jedi mind wiped.

Since the equivalent happening to John (his learning the truth about the supernatural before Mary's death) actually occurred on the show, I don't see how this could be considered a violation of Supernatural canon. Having your memory wiped by an angel is very much a part of the show's canon.

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

It's  about not changing the narrative

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Having John already know about hunting long before Dean is born is a pretty big left turn from what we know. 

I am pretty sure that the idea behind The Winchesters is that we will basically end up back at the same place where the original show started. 

But just to play the devil's advocate, even if it didn't, if this is the sticking point, let's ask that question. How would it change the show? What really important aspect of the show would be altered or "ruined" somehow? In other words, how would it damage the narrative of the show if John knew about hunting before the night Mary died?

I'm not talking about all the fanfiction stories of John learning to hunt right after Mary's death. I'm talking about what was actually on the show.  We saw flashbacks to John hunting when Dean and Sam were children, but do you think that no longer would have happened? Would John not have become obsessed with getting revenge for what happened to Mary? Would he not have traveled from place to place with Dean and Sam, living on stolen credit cards, staying in crappy motels, hunting and searching for answers and raising his sons to be warriors?

I think he would have. I think he would have become the same obsessed, embittered, secretive man we saw on the show after Mary's death. I think he would have fought with Sam when Sam went away to college, and I think he would have left Dean behind to track down the demon the way that we saw at the beginning of the show. I think that John, Dean and Sam would have still been the same characters that we knew.

 On the other hand, if we were shown that something else, something that actually made Supernatural the show it was, would be changed because of what happens on The Winchesters -- for example if we were told that John was now going to save Mary when Azazel came that night, or if we were told that John was going to settle down and work as a mechanic after Mary's death, or if we were told that he was going to put his children in an orphanage before he went off to hunt -- then yeah, I would say that it was changing the narrative in a way that I find unacceptable.  But I have seen nothing at all to indicate that this is what they have in mind. And especially considering who is making the show, I am not worried that it is going to happen. 

 

Edited April 26, 2022 by Bergamot

[gonzosgirrl]

Brilliant post, @Bergamot I wish I could like it a hundred times.

Also kudos to whoever it was that suggested that explaining that John knew about the supernatural and Mary and MOL could be as simple as John lies. 

[MAK]

55 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

  3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

They didn't turn Luke into a character that already knew his father was Darth Vader then had to be Jedi mind

 

55 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

But just to play the devil's advocate, even if it didn't, if this is the sticking point, let's ask that question. How would it change the show?

Nothing so far is pointing to anything that would change who Dean and Sam grow up as. Jensen seems to be very careful about situating the show in an era that would not change anything that happens after Mary burns. 

Even if John knew about the MoL, he might not know about the bunker, and he didn't have the key. If the BMoL had approached him, they could have told him the location and given him a key. (That would be retconned because supposedly the bunker was untouched since the 1950s when Dean and Sam found it.)

As for other stories,  I agree with most people that the interest was always the Winchesters. Side characters were interesting too, but that had a lot to do with casting. 

[tessathereaper]

19 hours ago, Bergamot said:

Since the equivalent happening to John (his learning the truth about the supernatural before Mary's death) actually occurred on the show, I don't see how this could be considered a violation of Supernatural canon. Having your memory wiped by an angel is very much a part of the show's canon.

I am pretty sure that the idea behind The Winchesters is that we will basically end up back at the same place where the original show started. 

But just to play the devil's advocate, even if it didn't, if this is the sticking point, let's ask that question. How would it change the show? What really important aspect of the show would be altered or "ruined" somehow? In other words, how would it damage the narrative of the show if John knew about hunting before the night Mary died?

I'm not talking about all the fanfiction stories of John learning to hunt right after Mary's death. I'm talking about what was actually on the show.  We saw flashbacks to John hunting when Dean and Sam were children, but do you think that no longer would have happened? Would John not have become obsessed with getting revenge for what happened to Mary? Would he not have traveled from place to place with Dean and Sam, living on stolen credit cards, staying in crappy motels, hunting and searching for answers and raising his sons to be warriors?

I think he would have. I think he would have become the same obsessed, embittered, secretive man we saw on the show after Mary's death. I think he would have fought with Sam when Sam went away to college, and I think he would have left Dean behind to track down the demon the way that we saw at the beginning of the show. I think that John, Dean and Sam would have still been the same characters that we knew.

 On the other hand, if we were shown that something else, something that actually made Supernatural the show it was, would be changed because of what happens on The Winchesters -- for example if we were told that John was now going to save Mary when Azazel came that night, or if we were told that John was going to settle down and work as a mechanic after Mary's death, or if we were told that he was going to put his children in an orphanage before he went off to hunt -- then yeah, I would say that it was changing the narrative in a way that I find unacceptable.  But I have seen nothing at all to indicate that this is what they have in mind. And especially considering who is making the show, I am not worried that it is going to happen. 

 

Absolutely, nothing would change what happens to them or THEIR experiences.  Nothing changes who they are.  

[MAK]

On 4/25/2022 at 12:51 PM, Hana Chan said:

We might have only met young John and Mary a few times, but their histories are very solidly established in the SPN lore. Maybe we don't know precisely how they met or where they went on their first dates or what they had for dinner, but we know the end point.

I know the OP didn't mention Bobby, but to all those who say they would prefer a spin-off/prequel about Bobby, isn't this argument applicable to Bobby's story too?  He grew up in an abusive household, killed his Dad, kind of shunned by Mom, had a blue collar life, got married, intro to supernatural things and had to kill wife, became a hunter, and then died in SPN S7. We already know his whole life. Why would we need to know the details about how he got his salvage yard, or how he met his wife, or the hunts he went on, etc. A show about Bobby/Rufus would just be MOTW episodes with no over -arching mythology. So the they could be any two random hunter partners. 

It would be interesting if Jensen had Bobby/Rufus interact with young John and Mary, in MOTW episodes. Little easter eggs for those who know their significance to the story in the future. 

 

[tessathereaper]

Do we know what year Bobby had to kill his wife? Would he even have been hunting in 1972?

[MAK]

24 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Do we know what year Bobby had to kill his wife? Would he even have been hunting in 1972?

Bobby would only have been  22 in 1972, so he might not even be married, let alone a hunter.

He could still some how cross paths with them. Was Bobby in the military? 

 

[Casseiopeia]

I don't think this is a spoiler but it is a cool shot...

 

[Aithne]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I don't think this is a spoiler but it is a cool shot...

 

Between this and the shot from JA's insta, I get the impression this is going to be a very pretty, atmospheric show. 

[gonzosgirrl]

Danneel actually tweeted that herself. ❤