The Winchesters Anticipation

[ahrtee]

11 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

I guess even if someone discovers the MOL per se, depending on the info you can still get the wrong (or right) picture od them.

I remember this one episode where Dorothy? the hunter from Oz was in the bunker and kept needling the brothers about being pencil-pushers etc. And there they stood in all their plaid-ed glory, looking exactly like hunters and she appeared dumber by the second for not getting it.  

Especially if John's picture of the MOL comes from hunters.  Although it might be interesting if John finds Henry's journal (I assume he had one before the one he'd ordered came in) and has to compare Henry's version with the hunter's version (though we do know which side he chose...)  

[ahrtee]

5 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

The Hunter group is kind of full of uber-female characters.  And since it has been established in the Dabb years that Mary was the best Hunter who ever Hunted it seems to be right in Robbie's wheelhouse. 

Also the series starts off with Dad's missing and hasn't been home in a few days. Samuel Campbell goes missing.

That's the problem--that it *is* in Robbie's wheelhouse.  Because the female uber-hunters in the SPN verse (other than Charlie) were just as flawed and obnoxious as the male hunters, which made them more real.  But Charlie was lovable, uber-intelligent, could find any answers in 5 minutes or less, and could do no wrong, even when she fucked up.  That's classic Mary Sue, and that's (more or less) what Dabb etc. did to OldMary.  I really don't want to see it in YoungMary.

Edited February 13, 2022 by ahrtee

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

I remember this one episode where Dorothy? the hunter from Oz was in the bunker and kept needling the brothers about being pencil-pushers etc. And there they stood in all their plaid-ed glory, looking exactly like hunters and she appeared dumber by the second for not getting it.  

Ha! I remember that, Aeryn! She actually called them "pencil-necks" at one point, as if they were nerdy-looking weaklings, even though they were standing right there in front of her and it was obvious what a ridiculous insult this was. It really did make her look stupid.

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

One thing I wouldn’t have minded would be going with Gumenick and Cohen for the roles as I liked them both. However since they are going for 19year olds now and a lot of time has passed already since they played the young versions, it is no longer feasible. And at this point a new cast will give the project more of its own identity.

Good point. It's too bad though that those actors wouldn't fit any more. I especially liked Amy Gumenick as young Mary. I liked the way the character was written too. I remember thinking when Mary was resurrected that I wish that Amara had brought her back as young Mary. I guess it would have been weird for her to be so much younger than her sons, but I think that might have actually made their interactions more interesting. I loved some of the scenes with Dean and young Mary that we did get, like the one where he convinces her that he really is her son by telling her that she used to make him tomato-rice soup when he was sick and sing him to sleep with "Hey Jude".

[Bergamot]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

The Hunter group is kind of full of uber-female characters. 

Do you mean the Hunter group in Supernatural in general, or in The Winchesters? In the prequel there are only two female characters listed so far out of four characters, so I don't think I would describe it as being full of uber-female characters. The first is Mary, who has been hunting all her life. Like Dean and Sam, she was raised as a warrior, so it wouldn't be surprising if she is a tough, expert hunter. And the other is Latika, who is described this way:

Quote

fiercely intelligent, and braver than she knows. She is a young Hunter in training who is still skittish when battling monsters face to face, but her research and problem-solving skills are where she really shines.

At least as far as this description goes, I don't have a problem with the character. She kind of sounds more like a Willow to Mary's Buffy, if you know what I mean. Carlos doesn't sound much like Xander though, so I don't think that they will end up being the Scooby gang.

 

[Casseiopeia]

In all fairness to the speculation I am only seeing this description of Winchesters in this one article. The whole article might not be based in any reality.

[Aeryn13]

I'm not sure Robbie Thompson had a Mary Sue problem so much as he had a definite Charlie problem. He certainly lost all boundaries with making the character the uber-wonderful geek-badass-self insert. I can't really remember other characters from him because it tended to be all Charlie, all the time. So I don't know how he would do with new characters.

I do not think Jensen would appreciate John bring made into some butt of the joke. And with a focus being the romance, I reckon the John-character would have to be played as a viable romantic interest. Even if you have a strong, powerful female part, the man is usually kept competent and brave in that scenario or else the audience will not want to see them together. Personally I could go for a couple like Fringe's Peter and Olivia.

Edited February 13, 2022 by Aeryn13

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

This is part of it. Mostly the basic premise....

"All over the world, incredible and brave individuals known as Hunter fight an unseen battle against darkness in order to protect humanity. In 1972, we meet a ragtag group of new and experienced Hunters that discover a deadly threat that their predecessors have been trying to prevent for years. Mary Campbell was raised to fight by her parents, and John Winchester, kept in the dark his whole life, team up to save the world while discovering their true legacy in the process."

It really sounds like John (at 19) somehow discovers he is a MOL's legacy?

I think the part some of us are getting stuck on is that John discovers who he really is (MOL's?) and joins the Hunter group to save the world.

He could have joined a Hunter group and has his memories erased by the angels, because they did it in Song Remains the Same... I think anything John and Mary do in prequel gets reset by the angels to get it back to the beginning of SPN.

[Casseiopeia]

57 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He could have joined a Hunter group and has his memories erased by the angels, because they did it in Song Remains the Same... I think anything John and Mary do in prequel gets reset by the angels to get it back to the beginning of SPN.

I really hope not. I would rather they just  told  a straight forward story.  The mind wipe thing is always problematic. There are usually tons of other people involved that would need to be reset as well.

[Casseiopeia]

The prequel leaked script. It may be real. I read the leaked script of Walker and they stayed pretty close in the premiere to what was leaked.

 

[Aeryn13]

15 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I really hope not. I would rather they just  told  a straight forward story.  The mind wipe thing is always problematic. There are usually tons of other people involved that would need to be reset as well.

But it's all just bad fanfiction by Chuck anyway till the bestest little Jackie Stu takes over. 

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I really hope not. I would rather they just  told  a straight forward story.  The mind wipe thing is always problematic. There are usually tons of other people involved that would need to be reset as well.

Which is no different than when Dean went to the past and saw Young Mary and when they did it in Song remains the Same.  Or when Cas wiped Lisa's memory. Or it means that John never told  the boys or Mary about his MOL past which there is wiggle room for him to lie about it if he just wanted to leave it behind.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Which is no different than when Dean went to the past and saw Young Mary and when they did it in Song remains the Same.  Or when Cas wiped Lisa's memory. Or it means that John never told  the boys or Mary about his MOL past which there is wiggle room for him to lie about it if he just wanted to leave it behind.

Then John going to see Missouri means he already knew about the monster world? Why wouldn't he tell Sam and Dean about the MOL's?  Why would he hate his father for dying/disappearing for the good fight? That would mean a large conspiracy in the hunter world to keep Sam and Dean in the dark about a lot of stuff they really needed to know about.  And Cass wiping Lisa and Ben's memories was full of holes. What happens when she goes home and sees all those photos of that random guy who put her in the hospital?  Mind wiping is just too full of plot holes....I never liked it.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Which is no different than when Dean went to the past and saw Young Mary and when they did it in Song remains the Same.  Or when Cas wiped Lisa's memory. Or it means that John never told  the boys or Mary about his MOL past which there is wiggle room for him to lie about it if he just wanted to leave it behind.

I honestly feel as if Dabb pretty much rendered any kind of canon a complete joke with his Chuck the Bad Writer nonsense/storyline(?).

And now we're seeing why, much to the chagrin of those who just want to hate the prequel, sight unseen, for whatever their reasons.

And just to put things into a bit more perspective-I thought that the premise of Supernatural sounded absolutely ridiculous and like nothing I would ever be interested in, not in a million years. 

So I have to echo those who think that it's going to come down to the actual writing of each episode(and I couldn't give a fig about any writers' physical appearance/gender/race/whatever-not in all honesty because good writing is good writing to me, that's all-no matter who or where it comes from).

And while Thompson became very hit or miss to me on the mothership(and yes again, mainly because of his OTT writing of his Charlie Sue), he did give us some better than well written episodes at times also, IMO.

But I honestly feel that, like almost all CW shows, it's going to come down to the casting of the actors and their ability to somehow make the writing work, that will make or break the series.

And in that, I don't think there is anyone from this show that I would trust more than Jensen Ackles to understand that concept and, as such, no one I could or would trust more to make anything even remotely attached to the mothership,  work, in any way at all.

I'm excited for him and this project and feel very optimistic that with him as an EP chances are much better for success than if anyone else had tried to do the same thing.

And I mean anyone, even and including Kripke.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Myrelle

[Myrelle]

24 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Then John going to see Missouri means he already knew about the monster world? Why wouldn't he tell Sam and Dean about the MOL's?  Why would he hate his father for dying/disappearing for the good fight? That would mean a large conspiracy in the hunter world to keep Sam and Dean in the dark about a lot of stuff they really needed to know about.  And Cass wiping Lisa and Ben's memories was full of holes. What happens when she goes home and sees all those photos of that random guy who put her in the hospital?  Mind wiping is just too full of plot holes....I never liked it.

Many in the fandom believe that Castiel created a whole new reality when he wiped Lisa's and Ben's memories, and there's canon and precedence for AUs everywhere, throughout the series, but especially and most specifically as it pertains to that scenario in My Heart Will Go On.

[DeeDee79]

I agree with @catrox14 that the description of John is pretty accurate to what we've seen of young John as well as Mary's description of him. I don't see it as a retcon in the slightest and I'm going to give it a shot rather than be pessimistic before we even get a chance to view it. I'm happy for Jensen that he's gotten the opportunity to get his project on the air.

[7kstar]

9 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I think the part some of us are getting stuck on is that John discovers who he really is (MOL's?) and joins the Hunter group to save the world.

That's my issue since he starts Supernatural in the dark. Now could they explain it sure.  My biggest issue, being retired and making less, I have limited funds for streaming.  I'm not a big horror fan anyway, so I'm on the fence if I will give it a shot. 

I have no problem with girl power if they allow the guys to match it.  I not a Mary Sue fan. 

[PAForrest]

21 hours ago, Myrelle said:

I honestly feel as if Dabb pretty much rendered any kind of canon a complete joke with his Chuck the Bad Writer nonsense/storyline(?)

To complain about "canon" after the Drabb years is a bad joke since Drabb rendered almost everything that came before his reign of incompetence as utterly meaningless - down to the guys not even being heroes in their own right, but instead bumbling fools who apparently were never trained to throw a punch or shoot a gun like normal humans actually are. No, it was all Chuckles, like every little thing that ever happened for 15 years, and without him they couldn't even walk through an open door on their own.

Of all Drabb's LOL!canon sins, that was the worst, the one that destroyed anything left standing about the series anyway. So at this point whatever Jensen and RT want to do will pale by comparison. But at least those two actually like the series, where Drabb and Berens didn't, and made it known.

Honestly, even without Chuckles writing/rewriting everything - the easiest out hand-delivered to the fandom by Drabb himself - the angels and their penchant for manipulating reality was already a thing, all the way back to In the Beginning, when Castiel wasn't Dean's bestie and was instead trying to get Dean to do what the angels wanted him to do. Nothing that happened in that episode, orSong Remains the Same is set in stone, IMO, due again to angel interference (aka Michael and Anna).

Drabb sold the long-standing Supernatural audience that 15 years of the show was all due to Chuckles, and not to believe our own eyes anyway. So, sorry, but it's open season on anything remotely resembling "canon", or whatever you want to pick and choose as the canon you like - mostly because according to Drabb and Chuckles, there is no canon, never was.

Edited February 14, 2022 by PAForrest

[Casseiopeia]

I get it. The prequel will likely not have any real connection to the original story that we knew from the years before "writers lie". But I remember how furious fans were that Dabb blew up all canon and lore.  And I do understand the Jensen is pretty confidant that fans are going to just go along with all the inconsistencies.  But the very first scene that is described in the script is going to turn off at least half the fans. It just is.

[Aithne]

11 hours ago, 7kstar said:

I have no problem with girl power if they allow the guys to match it.  I not a Mary Sue fan.

I think of Mary Sue or Gary Stus as characters who are great at everything, always right, loved by everybody and shoehorned into everything, even when it doesn't make sense. 

A person who was trained from a young age in a particular skillset being more competent with that skillset than a person without the same training isn't a Mary Sue, to me. Otherwise, Dean and Sam would be Sues/Stus. We know John eventually catches up with time, just as Sam was eventually considered Dean's equal even though Dean had many more years of experience to start than Sam did. 

PAForrest, that's kind of where I am too, re: canon. What is canon, in the context of Chuck writing this story? Was any of the backstory of Mary and John actually legit, or was it part of the tale being spun for the boys about their special destiny? How could we ever know for sure? The alleged script has Dean narrating this post-5.19, and talking about setting the record straight - is this a discovery of how it all *really* happened, and not just the archangel vessel narrative that they were sold by Chuck and his minions? Because frankly, I never liked the idea that Mary and John were brainwashed into being a breeding pair to produce the boys, and I don't mind at all if that was just mindgames being played by Heaven against the brothers. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Aithne

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

I get it. The prequel will likely not have any real connection to the original story that we knew from the years before "writers lie". But I remember how furious fans were that Dabb blew up all canon and lore.  And I do understand the Jensen is pretty confidant that fans are going to just go along with all the inconsistencies.  But the very first scene that is described in the script is going to turn off at least half the fans. It just is.

I've been reading some chatter on the Tweet machine that it's a fake script, which makes a lot more sense wrt what was in it.  My suspicion is that someone wrote that to screw around with fandom.

That said, if the scene with Dean writing at his desk is in fact part of the actual pilot script, it could be that Dean is in heaven and writing what he wants to say about his parents and it could be that Sam isn't dead yet. Or Jensen always intended to give JP a cameo or something.  Personally, I don't think that is THE real script.

[Aithne]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I've been reading some chatter on the Tweet machine that it's a fake script, which makes a lot more sense wrt what was in it.  My suspicion is that someone wrote that to screw around with fandom.

That said, if the scene with Dean writing at his desk is in fact part of the actual pilot script, it could be that Dean is in heaven and writing what he wants to say about his parents and it could be that Sam isn't dead yet. Or Jensen always intended to give JP a cameo or something.  Personally, I don't think that is THE real script.

I kind of like the idea that Dean was working on this in the months before his death, rather than from Heaven - I thought it was definitely going to be from Heaven previously, but it actually doesn't make a lot of sense that he'd be narrating, if that were the case. Why wouldn't John or Mary be telling the story instead?

This as a journey of the brothers to uncover the truth after Chuck's meddling in their lives has ended is a rather bittersweet concept, especially knowing how quickly Dean's life is going to end after - and I like that he's the one putting it to paper, so to speak, because it's slightly subversive (you'd peg the college boy as the one who would be putting it all together), but also suitable (because Dean was the one, growing up, who put their family first). 

[ILoveReading]

How can Dean be at his desk in the bunker when they dismantled it.   Dean's room no longer exists.

I thought Jensen was just doing voice over and not actually appearing on screen.  As much as I want to see Dean, I will cry if he cuts that pretty hair for one scene. 

As a fan of the show since Day 1, I never liked the whole angels manipulating John and Mary together, but if this doesn't happen at the start it doesn't mean it can't happen later.  The story starts several years before Dean is born.   It doesn't mean Mary and John won't have a massive falling out later on the angels decide they need to intervene. Just because the waypoints may happen different initially doesn't mean they can't fit in at some point later in the story. 

TBH, I hated a lot of Dabb's disregard for canon.  In particular Hero's Journey.  It literally destroyed the entire show to say Sam and Dean's story was just God's fan fiction.  I hated the intro of the AU worlds because Dabb had enough trouble keeping one timeline straight and i felt like it made Sam and Dean even less special.  So if Jensen's prequel makes some of that invalid, I'm nore than cool with it.  I don't care if it makes me a hypocrite. 

[tessathereaper]

Yeah I think it would be amazing if Jensen and Robbie were able to use Dabb's disregard of canon to fix some of the things that generally seemed like bad ideas or dead ends.  I mean let's be real they never really did anything with that stupid idea that "oh it was just some Cupid who got them together" anyway.  In fact until the prequel was announced it seemed like most people didn't even remember that and they only dug it up as a way to say "no you can't do that because this one time 5 minute character who wasn't even the Cupid who was supposed to have done it, said it was said they hated each other" so wasn't really a reliable narrator anyway.  Absolutely everything else we were shown was two flawed, imperfect people who maybe didn't make a perfect married couple but who loved each other.  

And Dabb's "everything was just a Chuck storyline and he could make changes and do whatever he wanted at any time" is the perfect canon excuse to tell "the real story".  When John and Mary were left to their own devices this happened, before Chuck intervened and changed it all. Or something like that.

[ahrtee]

28 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

Yeah I think it would be amazing if Jensen and Robbie were able to use Dabb's disregard of canon to fix some of the things that generally seemed like bad ideas or dead ends.  I mean let's be real they never really did anything with that stupid idea that "oh it was just some Cupid who got them together" anyway.  In fact until the prequel was announced it seemed like most people didn't even remember that and they only dug it up as a way to say "no you can't do that because this one time 5 minute character who wasn't even the Cupid who was supposed to have done it, said it was said they hated each other" so wasn't really a reliable narrator anyway.  Absolutely everything else we were shown was two flawed, imperfect people who maybe didn't make a perfect married couple but who loved each other.  

Actually, the cupid story can fit in with the new show (assuming everything is going to get wiped anyway...)

According to "old" canon, Mary met John in 1972.  They got engaged in April 1973, but didn't get married till 1975.  If you rethink things, they could have been hunting together from 1972-75, starting out hating each other but ending up in love, with or without Cupid's help.  

They could use Mary's parents' deaths as a spur to get Mary hunting again (maybe getting the whole Campbell family involved), with John helping this time.  When they finally did get married, they had another 4 years before Dean was born and Mary (supposedly) retired.  The mind wipe/reset could have been at any time before Sam was born, maybe to stop her from remembering Azazel's deal.  

[Casseiopeia]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

I've been reading some chatter on the Tweet machine that it's a fake script, which makes a lot more sense wrt what was in it.  My suspicion is that someone wrote that to screw around with fandom.

That said, if the scene with Dean writing at his desk is in fact part of the actual pilot script, it could be that Dean is in heaven and writing what he wants to say about his parents and it could be that Sam isn't dead yet. Or Jensen always intended to give JP a cameo or something.  Personally, I don't think that is THE real script.

I posted up thread a ways that it might be fake. However twitter removed the post for copyright infringement. If it was all fan made I doubt anyone would care. Hard to say.

[ILoveReading]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

I posted up thread a ways that it might be fake. However twitter removed the post for copyright infringement. If it was all fan made I doubt anyone would care. Hard to say.

They could also get a copy right infringement for using the Winchester IP without permission.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think that person and that whole business stinks. I've never seen a 'copyright infringement' notice on Twitter before (not saying it doesn't exist, just have never seen it). But he/she/it already accomplished their goal in putting this out there, and this only lends them credence - must be real if they have been forced to take it down - meanwhile, everyone who wanted to join in the mock/hatefest already saved it. 

If people don't like the idea on its own merit, so be it, but these 'fans' spewing their crap at it solely because their hero got his feelings hurt and threw a public fit - well that makes me angry.

You know, I don't care what happened with the announcement or subsequent conversations between Jensen and Jared. Jared *knows* he scuttled any chance this had with his fandom faction, and he is the only one who could even possibly call them off. If he was any kind of friend, brother, man, he would throw his support behind Jensen and his project and help make up for the shitstorm he caused. Jensen has been nothing but publicly supportive and a cheerleader for Jared and his projects. Jared could barely manage a smartass comment on Jensen's post congratulating *him*.  After all the years of Jensen covering Jared's ass on SO many occasions, he owes his 'brother' better than this.

[Aithne]

I mean, I had a raging headache and only read the first act and the last scene (meant to sleep and read the rest when I got up and it was already gone), but I liked it a lot. Reminded me of early SPN - small interactions between people (John and his mom, John and Lata, Mary and Samuel) that told a lot about them, personal and small-scale goals (John finding out more about his dad, Mary searching for hers). 

If that's the real script, I'll be watching for sure. And what a pleasant surprise that we would actually see Dean on screen again!

[Casseiopeia]

12 hours ago, ILoveReading said:

They could also get a copy right infringement for using the Winchester IP without permission.

How would that be any different than using Supernatural or any other fan made post about any show?  

If this is real that would mean that twice now information about the prequel has been leaked from someone close to project. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[ILoveReading]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

How would that be any different than using Supernatural or any other fan made post about any show? 

I don't know all the ins and outs but i'm guess its under 'fair use'  Fan fic usually has to have a disclaimer that they they don't' own the IP or are affiliated or making any money.  Technically, the WB could shut it down if they want,

Real or fake, the script it was an unauthorized leak.   I'm guessing NDA's were probably broken if its real, and copy right was broken if it wasn't.  There are probably different rules for developing,  unaired projects. 

[Bergamot]

On 2/14/2022 at 9:26 AM, Aithne said:

I think of Mary Sue or Gary Stus as characters who are great at everything, always right, loved by everybody and shoehorned into everything, even when it doesn't make sense. 

A person who was trained from a young age in a particular skillset being more competent with that skillset than a person without the same training isn't a Mary Sue, to me. Otherwise, Dean and Sam would be Sues/Stus.

Yes. It was evident from her very first episode that Charlie was a Mary Sue, an authorial insert by the writer of his dream self. I wanted to like her (it is hard for me to dislike a character who showed love to Dean as she did), but she was just so special and sparkly and perfect in a fanfictiony kind of way. The worst mistake they made with her, as far as I'm concerned, is that somehow, quite unbelievably, she instantly became an expert hunter, apparently just by Googling it. It invalidated the whole story of Dean and Sam's lives.

But Mary being a skilled hunter in The Winchesters does not necessarily make her a Mary Sue. The problem with Resurrected Mary is not that she was a Mary Sue, but that she was just so poorly written. They showed her making mistakes and hurting people, but then kept glossing over what this showed about her. They kept telling us that she was not just a good hunter, but that she was the best one ever -- but they never showed us anything that proved this. They kept insisting that Mary loved her sons, while all we saw was the evidence that she didn't. Too much telling and not showing with the character.

So I think that both Charlie and Resurrected Mary were failures as characters, but for different reasons. I liked Young Mary, though, so I would be willing to give her a chance and see what they do with her.

19 hours ago, ahrtee said:

The mind wipe/reset could have been at any time before Sam was born, maybe to stop her from remembering Azazel's deal.  

With all the mind wipes and time-traveling that we saw, I admit that it is hard for me to keep things straight. But I would really like it if the prequel could explain this aspect of the original story that you mention: why after making the deal to bring John back (not exactly something that would slip your mind), Mary was so unprepared and taken totally by surprise when Azazel showed up on the night of her death. Once we found out about her background, that didn't make sense any more.

 

[Casseiopeia]

3 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think that person and that whole business stinks. I've never seen a 'copyright infringement' notice on Twitter before (not saying it doesn't exist, just have never seen it). But he/she/it already accomplished their goal in putting this out there, and this only lends them credence - must be real if they have been forced to take it down - meanwhile, everyone who wanted to join in the mock/hatefest already saved it. 

If people don't like the idea on its own merit, so be it, but these 'fans' spewing their crap at it solely because their hero got his feelings hurt and threw a public fit - well that makes me angry.

You know, I don't care what happened with the announcement or subsequent conversations between Jensen and Jared. Jared *knows* he scuttled any chance this had with his fandom faction, and he is the only one who could even possibly call them off. If he was any kind of friend, brother, man, he would throw his support behind Jensen and his project and help make up for the shitstorm he caused. Jensen has been nothing but publicly supportive and a cheerleader for Jared and his projects. Jared could barely manage a smartass comment on Jensen's post congratulating *him*.  After all the years of Jensen covering Jared's ass on SO many occasions, he owes his 'brother' better than this.

If it makes you feel any better Hellers and AA's mounted a campaign on IMDB and Rotten Tomato's in order to torpedo Walker. It didn't work and the pilot episode had the best ratings the CW had for years. It's still the most watched show on the network. Winchesters will be just fine. All the online drama is just that drama.  Fans of Supernatural still way outnumber stans of the actors. As many reservations as I may have I will be tuning in and hoping that Robbie delivers a great pilot to set the tone for the rest of the series.

[ahrtee]

16 minutes ago, Bergamot said:

Yes. It was evident from her very first episode that Charlie was a Mary Sue, an authorial insert by the writer of his dream self. I wanted to like her (it is hard for me to dislike a character who showed love to Dean as she did), but she was just so special and sparkly and perfect in a fanfictiony kind of way. The worst mistake they made with her, as far as I'm concerned, is that somehow, quite unbelievably, she instantly became an expert hunter, apparently just by Googling it. It invalidated the whole story of Dean and Sam's lives.

I don't think Mary is/has been a Mary Sue per se.  As @Aithne said above, she was trained as a hunter.  If RT can keep her from becoming *too* special/super, I can believe her as an excellent hunter. 

What I worry about are the original characters.  Much as I loved RT's way with Dean and even the boys together (see: Slash Fiction, Time after Time, Baby, First Born, and even Dean's interactions with Charlie) I don't think he writes women very well.  Maybe he was trying to allay the misogynist claims about SPN, but his women tend to be, well, Special (he also was responsible for Eileen, who was superhunter despite being deaf as well as Sam's love interest; and remember, he also wrote Bitten and Angel Heart.)

Maybe the whole show was a little paranoid about the misogynist claims, because it seems in later years, they tended to make female characters rather one-note: either victim or Hero.  All the Wayward Sisters were, IMO, budding Mary Sues (if not completely); and even Donna and Jody, who I LOVED, were heading that way when, after one brief introduction to the SPN world, they both became expert hunters within the space of a season or so.  Police background notwithstanding, it's still a stretch to me.  

 

 

[Aeryn13]

35 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

If it makes you feel any better Hellers and AA's mounted a campaign on IMDB and Rotten Tomato's in order to torpedo Walker. It didn't work and the pilot episode had the best ratings the CW had for years. It's still the most watched show on the network. Winchesters will be just fine. All the online drama is just that drama.  Fans of Supernatural still way outnumber stans of the actors. As many reservations as I may have I will be tuning in and hoping that Robbie delivers a great pilot to set the tone for the rest of the series.

I think "fans of SPN" are pretty much the divided stan groups. Casual watchers is probably the much larger group. And those may or may not check out a spin-off  depending on if it strikes their fancy. Overall I'd say if the Winchesters goes forward, it might find its own audience, apart from SPN. I mean the premise wouldn't require a watch of the mothership.

[Lastcall]

I read the character synopsis and read a few reactions to the script that may be fake and I'm seeing a few red flags. This is an uphill battle for a lot of reasons. I'm a John fan but hate Mary after Dabb. There are also some Mary fans that hate John and others that hate them both. Mary's description sounds like the Bad Ass Ice Queen that Dabb pushed which ruined the character for many fans. John sounds ok as long as they make him a badass too, he was cutting his arm and learning Angel banishment spells immediately after learning the supernatural was real...they need to maintain that.  The other two sound like CW mandates to win over the twitter crowd that never showed up for Charmed, Batwoman or Legacies. 

They blocked the script before I could read it but I got the gist. If they go with "Dad's on a hunting trip" I will be a bit disappointed but it's not a deal breaker. It sounds like Dean's side is before the series finale which surprised me as I figured he would get the story from John and Mary in heaven when they got their memories back. I do think Jensen will be on camera now and then. If it's filmed in America and he is involved as much he appears then it will happen maybe even with a Jared cameo. 

Aside from all that, there's a very good chance this will get picked up and once you get on the CW you are on forever. Maybe the leaked script address how this connects to the main show but I don't see how. They have one year before they have to mind wipe for Dean in 73. There is just so much they have to set up for this to make sense. 

[Aithne]

7 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I read the character synopsis and read a few reactions to the script that may be fake and I'm seeing a few red flags. This is an uphill battle for a lot of reasons. I'm a John fan but hate Mary after Dabb. There are also some Mary fans that hate John and others that hate them both. Mary's description sounds like the Bad Ass Ice Queen that Dabb pushed which ruined the character for many fans. John sounds ok as long as they make him a badass too, he was cutting his arm and learning Angel banishment spells immediately after learning the supernatural was real...they need to maintain that.  The other two sound like CW mandates to win over the twitter crowd that never showed up for Charmed, Batwoman or Legacies. 

They blocked the script before I could read it but I got the gist. If they go with "Dad's on a hunting trip" I will be a bit disappointed but it's not a deal breaker. It sounds like Dean's side is before the series finale which surprised me as I figured he would get the story from John and Mary in heaven when they got their memories back. I do think Jensen will be on camera now and then. If it's filmed in America and he is involved as much he appears then it will happen maybe even with a Jared cameo. 

Aside from all that, there's a very good chance this will get picked up and once you get on the CW you are on forever. Maybe the leaked script address how this connects to the main show but I don't see how. They have one year before they have to mind wipe for Dean in 73. There is just so much they have to set up for this to make sense. 

I read the first act of the leaked script, and I would say Mary's actress will make or break it. The character's understandably not interested in bringing this random dude along on her search, but the actress can probably choose to play that cool and dismissive, or with more of a tone of concern for a civilian who should stay out of it for his own safety. Presumably he's going to grow on her rather quickly and prove to be tough in his own right, but I'd definitely like to see the actress play it warmer rather than cooler in the beginning, more like Gumenick's Mary. (And hopefully that's what will be given to her for background research into who the character already is.)

Edited February 15, 2022 by Aithne

[tessathereaper]

 

 

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

I don't think Mary is/has been a Mary Sue per se.  As @Aithne said above, she was trained as a hunter.  If RT can keep her from becoming *too* special/super, I can believe her as an excellent hunter. 

What I worry about are the original characters.  Much as I loved RT's way with Dean and even the boys together (see: Slash Fiction, Time after Time, Baby, First Born, and even Dean's interactions with Charlie) I don't think he writes women very well.  Maybe he was trying to allay the misogynist claims about SPN, but his women tend to be, well, Special (he also was responsible for Eileen, who was superhunter despite being deaf as well as Sam's love interest; and remember, he also wrote Bitten and Angel Heart.)

Maybe the whole show was a little paranoid about the misogynist claims, because it seems in later years, they tended to make female characters rather one-note: either victim or Hero.  All the Wayward Sisters were, IMO, budding Mary Sues (if not completely); and even Donna and Jody, who I LOVED, were heading that way when, after one brief introduction to the SPN world, they both became expert hunters within the space of a season or so.  Police background notwithstanding, it's still a stretch to me.  

 

 

I liked Eileen, I didn't think there was anything wrong with her. I mean of course as usual pretty much everyone was better and more interesting when they interacted with Dean, even though she was Sam's "love interest" and their interactions were usually cool.   I pretty much liked Charlie too though there was definitely too much unearned expertise there.  The Wayward Sisters yeah they went over board with that, these teenagers who are super hunters but I'm pretty sure that was Dabb and Berens baby and they hated Dean and even Sam and pretty much the entire premise of Supernatural. Wasn't Bitten the original idea for the werewolf spinoff(I always forget that even existed I never watched it LOL).

The premise of Angel Heart wasn't really that bad.  It had a bit of smart Dean(he figured out it was an angel blade that made the cuts etc) and the mini golf game was cute.  

Edited February 15, 2022 by tessathereaper

[ahrtee]

9 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

 

 

I liked Eileen, I didn't think there was anything wrong with her. I mean of course as usual pretty much everyone was better and more interesting when they interacted with Dean, even though she was Sam's "love interest" and their interactions were usually cool.   I pretty much liked Charlie too though there was definitely too much unearned expertise there.  The Wayward Sisters yeah they went over board with that, these teenagers who are super hunters but I'm pretty sure that was Dabb and Berens baby and they hated Dean and even Sam and pretty much the entire premise of Supernatural. Wasn't Bitten the original idea for the werewolf spinoff(I always forget that even existed I never watched it LOL).

The premise of Angel Heart wasn't really that bad.  It had a bit of smart Dean(he figured out it was an angel blade that made the cuts etc) and the mini golf game was cute.  

I didn't say I didn't like Eileen (or Charlie), just that their characters weren't that well written, especially since RT wanted them to be extra special without really showing why. (Sorry, I didn't think  Eileen was that interesting, except that she was deaf, and they never said anything about how that might have impacted/impeded her hunting or how she got around it.  That would have made an interesting story.  But to me, the fact that it didn't seem to make any difference in her hunting skills smacked a bit of Mary-Sue-ism.)

Ditto Bitten and Angel Heart.  The premises weren't that bad, and the Dean scenes were good.  It was the female lead characters that were off (to me, anyway.)    

[Bergamot]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

I think "fans of SPN" are pretty much the divided stan groups. Casual watchers is probably the much larger group. And those may or may not check out a spin-off  depending on if it strikes their fancy. Overall I'd say if the Winchesters goes forward, it might find its own audience, apart from SPN. I mean the premise wouldn't require a watch of the mothership.

I like this idea! I guess it is also possible that The Winchesters might draw some new viewers to be interested in Supernatural. Anything is possible, and I think it would be nice. The Supernatural fandom (the "SPN Family" 🙄) has become so bitter, entitled, and toxic that it would be like a breath of fresh air to have some new voices join in.

 

[gonzosgirrl]

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

If it makes you feel any better Hellers and AA's mounted a campaign on IMDB and Rotten Tomato's in order to torpedo Walker. It didn't work and the pilot episode had the best ratings the CW had for years. It's still the most watched show on the network. Winchesters will be just fine. All the online drama is just that drama.  Fans of Supernatural still way outnumber stans of the actors. As many reservations as I may have I will be tuning in and hoping that Robbie delivers a great pilot to set the tone for the rest of the series.

The difference is, at least in Jensen's case Jared started the hate towards Jensen (both personally and for his, work as regards The Winchesters) with his knee-jerk tweets, and he's done nothing to mitigate the damage. And when he stopped publicly skewering Jensen, he even tried to blame his own fans for 'misunderstanding'.  Jensen has done nothing but support him and his work at every turn. I can't speak for Misha or his fans, as he does tend to encourage them, but I sincerely doubt it was this 'AA' that worked against Walker. Regardless, Jensen has never once done anything like Jared or Misha do to encourage his fanbase towards this kind of nastiness.

[Casseiopeia]

28 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

The difference is, at least in Jensen's case Jared started the hate towards Jensen (both personally and for his, work as regards The Winchesters) with his knee-jerk tweets, and he's done nothing to mitigate the damage. And when he stopped publicly skewering Jensen, he even tried to blame his own fans for 'misunderstanding'.  Jensen has done nothing but support him and his work at every turn. I can't speak for Misha or his fans, as he does tend to encourage them, but I sincerely doubt it was this 'AA' that worked against Walker. Regardless, Jensen has never once done anything like Jared or Misha do to encourage his fanbase towards this kind of nastiness.

My point was that most fans are either unaware of all the drama or don't care.  I doubt very much if all that past history is going to affect Winchesters.  What stans do or don't do on SM is only going to affect their own factions. The vast majority of fans just want to see a good show.

I for one am very interested to see how Robbie fits his story into established canon. Jensen did say that they worked very hard to make sure that happened..."the fun part".

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, Aithne said:

I read the first act of the leaked script, and I would say Mary's actress will make or break it. The character's understandably not interested in bringing this random dude along on her search, but the actress can probably choose to play that cool and dismissive, or with more of a tone of concern for a civilian who should stay out of it for his own safety. Presumably he's going to grow on her rather quickly and prove to be tough in his own right, but I'd definitely like to see the actress play it warmer rather than cooler in the beginning, more like Gumenick's Mary. (And hopefully that's what will be given to her for background research into who the character already is.)

I 100% agree it will all come down to casting. They seem to be doing this as a true pilot where you don't need to know anything about the original show. That's a good thing, it should stand on it's own but without the connection it's a hard sell. They are going for the CW crowd with the teen characters but they are setting it in the 70's. I just don't see kids clamoring for a 70's show. 

I loved Mary before Dabb. I've always been a John fan so as long as he is a badass I will watch. The indian woman reads so much like Charlie that I'm surprised they didn't say she was a lesbian also. Cervantes reads like a stereotypical hippie character so they will need a great actor for him. The two new ones are Robbie characters so he could go dangerously into Charlie self insert territory if he is not careful. I always thought he was fair with Dean in the Charlie episodes and even with the cringe Robbie gave Dean some cool moments. As long as he doesn't sideline John and Mary fans should give them a fair shot. 

I do have a question about what you read, was there any hint at all how this could line up with the main show?

[Aithne]

24 minutes ago, Lastcall said:

I do have a question about what you read, was there any hint at all how this could line up with the main show?

Sort of! It basically is Dean between 5.19 and 5.20 - he and Sam are researching the truth of their parents and he's writing all of this down to set the record straight. He mentions that a journal was kept for every hunt, and they've been gathering every one they could find to piece together the story (or something to that effect). 

My possibly totally wrong take on this is that perhaps, in the aftermath of Chuck, they're realizing that what they were told by the Cupid / "saw" in the past / etc. might not have been 100% accurate - maybe this was manipulated by Chuck to better tell his story. These journals may provide proof that the truth of what happened was somehow different. 

[DeeDee79]

6 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

It's still the most watched show on the network.

Walker isn't the most watched show on the network. From what I've read (just today) All American is the top show, followed by Superman & Lois, followed by The Flash with Walker barely edging out Naomi for the 4th spot. And this was a 2022 article.

[Casseiopeia]

1 hour ago, DeeDee79 said:

Walker isn't the most watched show on the network. From what I've read (just today) All American is the top show, followed by Superman & Lois, followed by The Flash with Walker barely edging out Naomi for the 4th spot. And this was a 2022 article.

Walker brings in the most viewers. Their rating is low because it skews to an older audience.  All American brings in about half the viewers but it's audience is in the coveted 18-35 demo which is why their rating is higher. S&L is a very close second in number of viewers and it does better in the demo.  Supernatural also did better with older audiences in it's waning years but the rating wasn't very high even though the number of viewers were still high. Walker also does better than either S&L and All American in Live+3 and +7. Their increase in viewers is usually the best on the CW.  The demo only shows who is watching not how many viewers there are.

So this is going to be interesting. Winchesters is initially going to appeal to SPN fans who skew older but the premise of the show is trying to appeal to the younger audience. The trick is to get the 18-35 audience to tune in to a spinoff of an older skewing show.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[7kstar]

Haven't watched Walker, but it looks like in season 1 it did really well but has been slipping ever since. 

3 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

What stans do or don't do on SM is only going to affect their own factions. The vast majority of fans just want to see a good show.

I for one am very interested to see how Robbie fits his story into established canon. Jensen did say that they worked very hard to make sure that happened..."the fun part".

I've never kept up with twitter and if they make a strong story that is interesting and fun, it could be a hit.  I don't really have a problem with them having John and Mary fighting together because it does set up for a good story.  I'm guessing they are using either John lied about not knowing anything about hunting prior to Mary's death or angels interfered so it can be tied to cannon of Supernatural. 

For the show to really have a chance, it needs to stand on its own two feet.  Part of me wonders if the so called leaked pilot was a test to see what folks thought about it so they could make changes if needed.  

As far as copyright goes, yes, they could kill all fanfiction.  Some just see fanfiction as a way to help sell their product, others see it as people stealing their characters.  I know one writer of a show complained about fanfiction because they thought they should create their own original stories instead of using theirs.  So there will always be some who believe that fanfiction shouldn't be allowed. 

Right now, they should be protecting their scripts as it is the early stages, but I do believe Jensen knows what he is dealing with.  He's had a tv show get cancelled in the early stages.  I believe he is very aware of the business.  His involvement, even if it is only behind the scenes, may be why it gets a chance vs all the other failed attempts.

Edited February 16, 2022 by 7kstar
pesky spelling

[DeeDee79]

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

Walker brings in the most viewers. Their demo is low because it skews to an older audience.  All American brings in about half the viewers but it's audience is in the coveted 18-35 demo which is why their rating is higher. S&L is a very close second in number of viewers and it does better in the demo.  Supernatural also did better with older audiences in it's waning years but the rating wasn't very high even though the number of viewers were still high. Walker also does better than either S&L and All American in Live+3 and +7. Their increase in viewers is usually the best on the CW.  The demo only shows who is watching not how many viewers there are.

I googled based on your comment that Walker is the most watched show on the network. Whether or not it brings in more viewers or has more viewers within a certain demographic it's not the most watched which is what I was refuting.

[Casseiopeia]

46 minutes ago, DeeDee79 said:

I googled based on your comment that Walker is the most watched show on the network. Whether or not it brings in more viewers or has more viewers within a certain demographic it's not the most watched which is what I was refuting.

I check the ratings every day (it fascinates me what can I say).  There are three different categories for demo or age of viewers-18-34, 18-39 and 25-54 (the category SPN always did the best in) and  one category for number of viewers in total of all demo's. Almost every week Walker brings in the most viewers (around 1 million) overall on the CW and it's best rating is in the 25-54 demo.  Advertisers will spend more money on the 18-34 demo which is why All American and S&L get better ratings even though their viewership isn't nearly as high overall. Advertisers can't make as much money on the 25-54 demo which is why Walker's ratings are lower.  Where Walker shines is in the even more coveted Live+3 and +7 numbers. Those are the DVR viewers which means that the show is retaining viewership 3-7 days out. Walkers viewers increase by 60-150%. When I say most watched I mean number of viewers overall. Walker brings in 1 million viewers or more every week. S&L is closer with about 800-900k viewers every week. All American has much lower viewership overall but it's viewers are extremely strong in the 18-34 demo which advertisers love so the ratings are always better.  They don't really break down how many viewers per demo just the overall total.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Casseiopeia

[DeeDee79]

12 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I check the ratings every day (it fascinates me what can I say).  There are three different categories for demo or age of viewers-18-34, 18-39 and 25-54 (the category SPN always did the best in) and  one category for number of viewers in total of all demo's. Almost every week Walker brings in the most viewers (around 1 million) overall on the CW and it's best rating is in the 25-54 demo.  Advertisers will spend more money on the 18-34 demo which is why All American and S&L get better ratings even though their viewership isn't nearly as high. Advertisers can't make as much money on the 25-54 demo which is why Walker's ratings are lower.  Where Walker shines is in the even more coveted Live+3 and +7 numbers. Those are the DVR viewers which means that the show is retaining viewership 3-7 days out. Walkers viewers increase by 60-150%. When I say most watched I mean number of viewers overall. Walker brings in 1 million viewers or more every week. S&L is closer with about 800-900k viewers every week. All American has much lower viewership overall but it's viewers are extremely strong in the 18-34 demo which advertisers love so the ratings are always better.  They don't really break down how many viewers per demo just the overall total.

Interesting. Walker must have an amazing supporting cast.

Edited February 16, 2022 by DeeDee79