S04.E10: The Wilderness

[Bannon]

15 hours ago, dmc said:

Rita was never friends with Serena.  Serena is shitty to Rita in Season 1.  Rita is her servant or Martha.  She's expected to be subservient.  

Go back and watch the scene where they think June is pregnant the first time.

Serena asks June if her breasts are tender and Rita says that wouldn't happen for while

Serena says " is the cake ready for the Putnams"

Rita says "yep it's all ready to go I just need to wrap it up"

And Serena says "then it's not ready yet" in other words don't contradict me and dismissed.

 

She's basically a house slave closer to the family, but still property.  They treat her slightly better because in their caste system she is up a rung.  

Rita is not nice to June at first but I suspect this is because their other handmaid killed herself and she doesn't want to get attached.  

 

I agree. I'l just pushing back against the notion that there is insufficient evidence to keep Serena locked up, now that Fred's or June's testimony regarding her rape instigation may not be available. She quite obviously enslaved and abused Rita, so unless the writers ridiculously write Rita as being unwilling to testify, or that Rita's testimony would obviously trump any denial by Serena, for any sane and sober judge or jury, Serena's going to be found guilty. Yes, governments sometimes let guilty people off the hook, for even the most horrid crimes, if the guilty have something valuable to trade. Sammy The Bull murdered 18 people, but he was needed to convict John Gotti, so he walked. I don't know what Serena has of value to trade at this time, to overcome the value of convicting a Gilead Commander's wife of enslaving people and abusing slaves.

[EllaWycliffe]

25 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I agree. I'l just pushing back against the notion that there is insufficient evidence to keep Serena locked up, now that Fred's or June's testimony regarding her rape instigation may not be available. She quite obviously enslaved and abused Rita, so unless the writers ridiculously write Rita as being unwilling to testify, or that Rita's testimony would obviously trump any denial by Serena, for any sane and sober judge or jury, Serena's going to be found guilty.

I happen to agree but I am not impressed with the show's writing, so there's the first problem. Second, June's already existing testimony and Fred's as well, should do the job but again, poor writing is an issue..

The bigger arguing point is this - would they have considered prosecuting Serena if she had crossed the border by herself and said she was facing oppression if she returned to Gilead? And based on facts - amputated finger, being beaten by the husband, likely to be handmaided if returned, would she have been denied entry? The answer is no, even if she is a Wife who engaged in unpleasant activities. I mean, they were letting an Aunt walk around free as a bird and you can't tell me an Aunt isn't guilty of physical assault, enslavement, and assisted rape. 

Plus, they did make a deal with Serena originally and reneged it on the claims of the bigger fish to fry, Fred. Then they made a deal with history's greatest monster, Fred, that got him off scot free... and then reneged that deal when they realized he wasn't being honest. Serena was originally promised immunity from prosecution because it was undersrtood her crimes as a Wife were essentially accepted law in Gilead. Her deal was only reneged because of the coerced rape of June and Nick... which frankly is a bit of a reach. The US/Canada is never going to get a Wife to betray her husband again if this is how they handle deals

42 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I don't know what Serena has of value to trade at this time, to overcome the value of convicting a Gilead Commander's wife of enslaving people and abusing slaves.

I'd actually argue she's likely to have a deep insight into the upper structure of Gilead life and the command structure. We know she was essentially functioning as Fred while he was recovering from being shot. It's likely she's full of info... but since she's a Wife, thats being discounted and ignored by the US and Canada as not worth bothering with.

Which is an interesting commentary all on its own.

[Bannon]

46 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I happen to agree but I am not impressed with the show's writing, so there's the first problem. Second, June's already existing testimony and Fred's as well, should do the job but again, poor writing is an issue..

The bigger arguing point is this - would they have considered prosecuting Serena if she had crossed the border by herself and said she was facing oppression if she returned to Gilead? And based on facts - amputated finger, being beaten by the husband, likely to be handmaided if returned, would she have been denied entry? The answer is no, even if she is a Wife who engaged in unpleasant activities. I mean, they were letting an Aunt walk around free as a bird and you can't tell me an Aunt isn't guilty of physical assault, enslavement, and assisted rape. 

Plus, they did make a deal with Serena originally and reneged it on the claims of the bigger fish to fry, Fred. Then they made a deal with history's greatest monster, Fred, that got him off scot free... and then reneged that deal when they realized he wasn't being honest. Serena was originally promised immunity from prosecution because it was undersrtood her crimes as a Wife were essentially accepted law in Gilead. Her deal was only reneged because of the coerced rape of June and Nick... which frankly is a bit of a reach. The US/Canada is never going to get a Wife to betray her husband again if this is how they handle deals

I'd actually argue she's likely to have a deep insight into the upper structure of Gilead life and the command structure. We know she was essentially functioning as Fred while he was recovering from being shot. It's likely she's full of info... but since she's a Wife, thats being discounted and ignored by the US and Canada as not worth bothering with.

Which is an interesting commentary all on its own.

I agree that the writing is so all over the place that it makes anything possible, and not in a good way. It's really unfortunate, because it's so unnecessary, and again, I think it happens so frequently in heavily serialized drama when writers fundamentally don't trust the audience to stick with a realistic portrayal of human beings in a complex setting.

With regard to the former Aunt in Canada, I may be wrong, but I thought she was portrayed as having entered Canada under a different identity. That would make a lot more sense, for a change.

[Umbelina]

Serena, if they bothered to charge her, would just start quoting bible scripture about the handmaid having her husband's child, and how this was their religion in Gilead, and those Gilead rules all wives had to follow included holding the hands of the handmaid as she rested her head against her pelvic bone.  (I always wondered about that placement frankly, was that supposed to stimulate the wife?)

Anyway, she might get it on the Nick thing, but quite a few people know June was romantic with Nick, not to mention more testimony about Nick might not be good for him, and Serena is smart enough to really play that up.

On the other hand she could plead for asylum, and say the only reason she's been snot to everyone in Canada is that she knew Fred would get off, and was afraid of him, or some such bullshit.  

My guess is that a compromise is reached, she's a criminal, but they will simply deport her back to Gilead after she has the baby, taking the baby or not will be her decision, although, since it's born on Canadian soil, there is a small chance they might keep the baby there, but since it's a boy, perhaps not.

The biggest plot hole that DOES actually bother me, in spite of generally looking for the good, actually enjoying the hell of the show, and going with the flow this season about the small shit?  Nick.  Nick's named in that international court, broadcast and with transcripts.  Nick, technically a driver, though now the Commanders know he was also an Eye, had sex with a Commander's handmaiden and probably impregnated her.  (That can be iffy now that Fred's actually sired a child though.)  

Nick could just deny it all however, or say he was following Serena's orders, a man's word against two women?  In Gilead that would probably stand...but...why haven't we seen any repercussions from that?  Maybe we will.  Well, that, and Gilead is still short of Commanders now.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Umbelina

[dmc]

2 hours ago, Bannon said:

I agree. I'l just pushing back against the notion that there is insufficient evidence to keep Serena locked up, now that Fred's or June's testimony regarding her rape instigation may not be available. She quite obviously enslaved and abused Rita, so unless the writers ridiculously write Rita as being unwilling to testify, or that Rita's testimony would obviously trump any denial by Serena, for any sane and sober judge or jury, Serena's going to be found guilty. Yes, governments sometimes let guilty people off the hook, for even the most horrid crimes, if the guilty have something valuable to trade. Sammy The Bull murdered 18 people, but he was needed to convict John Gotti, so he walked. I don't know what Serena has of value to trade at this time, to overcome the value of convicting a Gilead Commander's wife of enslaving people and abusing slaves.

The rape Serena was arrested for was not the ceremony.  It was what she orchestrated with Nick not sanctioned by Gilead.  June and Fred’s testimony is already on the record.  That technically is enough to try her.  Also when Tuello mentions it to her, she acknowledges it.  Her response is they had a relationship (June and Nick) after that.  To my knowledge, Rita may know from June but she wasn’t there or did not witness it.  But Tuello was going off of Fred’s say so because he didn’t witness either.  Serena told him Fred.  By that logic if Fred’s hearsay was acceptable so is Rita’s.  You know the show plays fast and loose with the law. 

Edited June 19, 2021 by dmc

[Hathaway]

They also had Serena for insisting Fred rape June when she was nine months pregnant.

[The Mighty Peanut]

3 hours ago, Umbelina said:

Serena, if they bothered to charge her, would just start quoting bible scripture about the handmaid having her husband's child, and how this was their religion in Gilead, and those Gilead rules all wives had to follow included holding the hands of the handmaid as she rested her head against her pelvic bone.  (I always wondered about that placement frankly, was that supposed to stimulate the wife?)

 

 

I don't think Gilead observes female sexual pleasure unless they're lopping parts of or killing them. The head placement from what I understand is supposed to be symbolic of the fertility coming forth from the womb of the wife, making it "her" child. That she may keep the HM from running away is an added perk.

I remember S1 when Lydia is explaining the ceremony in these cutsey terms and poor  Janine is like "We're flowers!" and Moira was like wait just a damn second and asked point blank if she meant they would have to have sex with the commanders. So Lydia says more biblical nonsense and flowery language, crap about pearls and blossoms, but like everything else in Gilead it was carefully planned.

Edited June 19, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[Helena Dax]

I just realized that for all that Gilead is some sort of theocracy, we've never seen them attending religious ceremonies. They don't seem to go to Church and the only time they read the Bible is during the Rape Ceremony. How is the religious side of Gilead supposed to work?

[MochaJay]

On 6/18/2021 at 6:52 PM, FierceCritter said:

I'm trying to understand something about the logistics of the end.

1) Fred is handed over at the USA/Gilead border. So he's now in Gilead.
2) Fred is driven in a Gilead vehicle by Gilead personnel to some forest
3) Former handmaids also drive to this forest to kill Fred.
4) Fred is killed and strung up against a wall.

All that considered, where the hell were they?  Gilead personnel and a Gilead vehicle indicates Gilead. Canadian refugees with personal vehicles indicates Canada.

If they were in Canada, then Fred's body will be found in Canada, not Gilead. If they were in Gilead, how did these handmaids get there, and why the hell would they risk that?

As I figure it, Canada maintains its claim to its original borders. The women parked in Canada, and somewhere in the woods crossed the old, unmarked, unguarded US-Canada border into former US territory. They did not travel so far to reach the fenced / guarded hard border maintained by Gilead - which in that area might have been a few miles further in for logistical reasons - eg a forest is harder for the Guardians to patrol than a natural barrier like a river. Gilead is a new unsettled state without treaties and still at war with the US, so they only claim land they physically occupy; wherever that falls short of the old US border there is a no-mans land.

At the bridge where the exchange took place there isn't a no-mans-land. The new Canada-Gilead hard border aligns to the old Canada-US soft border. Nick's vehicle travelled from the exchange for several hours within Gilead, then crossed into the no-mans-land without ever leaving US land or entering Canada. They were able to do this because Nick is an Eye Commander who can command Guardians to let him pass, but common escapees would be lucky not to be shot or recaptured by the Gilead border patrols before reaching no-mans-land.

 

On 6/18/2021 at 8:47 PM, The Mighty Peanut said:

Can we talk legality? I am going to take a wild guess that Gilead did not agree to give up 22 resistance fighters in exchange for a corpse. If Fred was going to get dead it would have been by their hands. So I wonder what happens to Nick and Lawrence now--neither of them seem too worried, which strikes me as odd. Perhaps they were in no man's land where Fred had no rights, but he was brought there by Nick and the Eyes, am I correct? Are we to assume they are all rebels or rebel sympathizers? 

I think Gilead permitted Lawrence to make the exchange, so he did his job and would expect no trouble.

Possibly Fred was tried in absentia and the Eyes were ordered to execute him,  which Nick kinda did. But if Nick had no orders or authority to arrest Fred, he's still secret police and it's hard to follow up when secret police disappear people. All the Guardians at the border can report is that the Eyes took Waterford. Which Eyes? - they don't know and weren't going to ask. Lawrence could identify Nick, but he has enough on Nick to make him a useful ally - so he'd be more likely to amuse himself by suggesting that Commander Blaine be set in charge of the investigation.

 

7 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

I just realized that for all that Gilead is some sort of theocracy, we've never seen them attending religious ceremonies. They don't seem to go to Church and the only time they read the Bible is during the Rape Ceremony. How is the religious side of Gilead supposed to work?

Econopeople have to go church, that's why June was alone in the apartment block during her Season 2 escape attempt.

 

I think Commanders are meant to be in charge of the religious instruction of their household - like with the Bible reading at the Ceremony. We have just never spent much time in a truly devout household.

Edited June 20, 2021 by MochaJay

[dmc]

16 hours ago, Hathaway said:

They also had Serena for insisting Fred rape June when she was nine months pregnant.

Fred didn't tell them this so they don't know unless June does.

[EllaWycliffe]

5 hours ago, dmc said:

Fred didn't tell them this so they don't know unless June does.

True but I really don't see June leaving that tidbit out ;)

[dmc]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

True but I really don't see June leaving that tidbit out ;)

True but they never filed additional charges as of yet.  Maybe they will honestly June has had so many crimes committed against her I am surprised she hasn't forgotten some.  

Edited June 20, 2021 by dmc

[chaifan]

Didn't June mention being raped while pregnant during her testimony scene?  I don't recall if she mentioned Serena's involvement in that.

I have to assume that June has been fully, completely, totally debriefed, and every incident that occurred to her personally or that she knows of has been documented, including who was responsible.  Same with Rita and everyone else who was on that plane or otherwise got out of Gilead. 

 

[dmc]

30 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Didn't June mention being raped while pregnant during her testimony scene?  I don't recall if she mentioned Serena's involvement in that.

I have to assume that June has been fully, completely, totally debriefed, and every incident that occurred to her personally or that she knows of has been documented, including who was responsible.  Same with Rita and everyone else who was on that plane or otherwise got out of Gilead. 

 

We don't see her mention it, she may have but we don't see any other charges filed against Serena either.  It just the not sanctioned rape with Nick currently.  

[Anela]

On 6/16/2021 at 2:35 AM, aghst said:

Well that was something.

Some kind of feminist revenge fantasy realized?

Barbaric things were done to these women so they get to resort to barbarism themselves?

June covered in Fred's blood smears her baby daughter with it.

I am surprised, figured that Fred and Serena would last until the end of the series but really his story lines had gone stale for awhile now.

It wasn't just that the women participated.  They hung him on the wall and then sent his severed finger to Serena, who certainly deserves comeuppance, because she's now smug and very demanding, wanting to go see probably some palatial homes.

That is like Ariya paying back Waldor Frey for the Red Wedding by feeding him his own sons.  Or like the Romans salting Carthage.

Yeah I don't get how Joseph and Nick trade 22 Handmaids for 1 commander and then turn him over to escaped Handmaids.  Sure they both want to help June but aren't they under suspicion?

This show is now all about mindfucking -- it was there in the beginning but it seems to be all that's left.

 

I’m good with feminist revenge fantasies.  I don’t think you should have to be a feminist, to be good with what they did. What they were taught to do with philanderers and rapists, under the very laws that he wrote.  Who knows how many women he raped, let alone put into that misery, after he helped to murder the politicians, and overthrow the government in the first place.  He got off too easy.  

Edited June 20, 2021 by Anela

[Anela]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:38 AM, Stephanie23 said:

Yes, Serena and Fred (and Lydia) deserve to be punished by Gilead, the monster they created.

Fred was punished by the monster that he created.  

[Emily Thrace]

On 6/18/2021 at 6:12 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

More specifically Fred was handed over ON A BRIDGE at the US/Canadian border. Therefore it had to be upstate NY.

Fred is driven around a bit. 

Former handmaids drive to the kill site but there's no way they can just cross the bridge/bridges over the St. Lawrence River because its been previously established that those bridges are heavily guard. So the handmaids had to drive from Toronto up to the border at the top of New York, drive into Quebec and then cross the land border in Vermont/New Hampshire that for some reason is apparently unguarded, into "no man's land". Its ridiculous in that coordinating the meet up would be insane, its a ridiculous drive where June would not have time to get back to Toronto in the early morning. But it was Gilead, not Canada, likely Vermont or New Hampshire, and I can tell you from experience its not hard to find an abandoned stone structure out there. 

If they're magically revealed to be in Canada, I will be really annoyed, and yes, there's all sorts of problems with this considering how locked down the border previously was depicted as. Not to mention handmaids taking that huge of a risk of being captured. 

There really isn't a way to completely lock down the Canada-US border. There are too many old roads and woodlands. You can make it impossible to leave Gilead by having rings of security around where the people that makes it impossible to reach the border. Which is effectively the same thing.

[Anela]

On 6/16/2021 at 7:23 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

So, deeper thoughts. I do love that Fred is dead and while I can quibble over whether I prefer Fred getting it from his Gilead buddies is better than Fred torn apart by wronged female victims... gotta be honest, both satisfy for different reasons. Fred on the wall, with the latin phrase, was emotionally satisfying.

That said, the writing really has fallen apart. I'm sorry but we've been told repeatedly that Gilead is shut down, no info coming in or out, the borders locked up tight. The initial capture of Fred I can hand wave at as a one off border weirdness exploit. But are we really supposed to believe that knowing that a high level official defected/was captured simply by driving across the border, that the border on Gilead's side wouldn't be wrapped up double tight since?

The casual movement of Lawrence, a high level official, across the border to make deals on Gilead's behalf just boggles. Likewise Nick magically being in enough communication to organize a prisoner transfer of women, and to divert Fred to... some magical no man's land that not only isn't locked up tight on both sides, but has plenty of space for June to run her version of the Hunger Games with 20+ fugitive handmaids willing to risk recapture to kill Fred. Have these people ever been to Canada and the border? If you cross the border by going over a bridge and you're in Ontario - then you're crossing the St. Lawrence river. Which is fine but you then have to account for how June and her handmaid posse got across the river. It's not "no man's land", it's Gilead proper. The border is so super guarded, Emily was lucky to cross alive... but now handmaids can cross for murder parties in the woods? Murder parties that were *hardly stealthy*, I might add. 

Fred's info was inaccurate and he was not being a willing participant in his debrief. I know Serena is a bitch but her high handedness was incredible considering that Fred had agreed willingly to betray Gilead. I'm also calling bullshit on the need to be questioning Fred on how the oncologist died at Jezebel's - not that the family doesn't deserve closure but because Fred is apparently a font of wisdom on Gilead, and our most important need isn't info on the government but how a specific woman died? He's been given full immunity in exchange for info that is vitally important, and this is what's being asked? And he's allowed to blow off the question?

I still don't understand why June assumed Luke would want her to leave and to be blunt, I see utterly no reason why she can't take her daughter by a different man with her. 

This was the only thing that bothered me, too.  Their sudden freedom to run around the woods, as though people aren’t doing whatever they can to get them back to gilead, since they’re seen as property.  I also think that’s why they were asking him about specific women: they still needed justice, instead of being fobbed off as another “poor thing, shame really” after he’d destroyed this woman’s life, and then taken it completely, at a sex club.  
 

I briefly thought that Serena knew that Fred wasn’t going to get to Geneva, when she stepped away from him, but she didn’t really love him anymore, she was just using him, too.  I can totally understand the rage at the injustice of these two sociopaths getting to live in a nice house, and resume normal lives with their own baby.  Now for them to follow through and have Serena’s baby taken somehow.  I wouldn’t want him in gilead. 
 

I’ve made the trip to Canada before, through NE Ohio and Erie, PA, then Buffalo, NY.  We had to cross a long bridge there. 

Edited June 21, 2021 by Anela

[Anela]

On 6/16/2021 at 5:32 PM, Bannon said:

Engaging in positive thinking crap is nothing like not having the courage to stand and fight a totalitarian regime. Yes, people say stupid crap. They've just written this character to say and do stupid crap with great frequency. Yes, people like that exist. They are tedious. In my opinion, it is a mistake to give a lot of screen time to characters like that, except for purposes of comic relief. Which is why I want to see Luke sing his version of...

The bunny could have come in handy, too, if they really wanted to take him by suprise.  
 

 

[Cornhusker12]

Tuello is one of the most boring people I've ever seen on a tv show

[Baltimore Betty]

15 hours ago, Anela said:

Fred was punished by the monster that he created.  

I remember when Aunt Lydia brought a man in to a circle of handmaids, she said he had raped a girl and asked the HM's to serve the justice that was due him as in stomp him to death, when the HM's went after Fred that is what I flashed on, he truly died by the sword he forged for himself in Gilead.

[Cornhusker12]

46 minutes ago, Baltimore Betty said:

I remember when Aunt Lydia brought a man in to a circle of handmaids, she said he had raped a girl and asked the HM's to serve the justice that was due him as in stomp him to death, when the HM's went after Fred that is what I flashed on, he truly died by the sword he forged for himself in Gilead.

I wish they would've reminded us viewers about that somehow instead of focusing on the Jezebel's bit and the "biting", I totally forgot and didn't make that connection in the moment.

[Cornhusker12]

2 hours ago, Cornhusker12 said:

Tuello is one of the most boring people I've ever seen on a tv show

More random Tuello thoughts because he is such a strange character, simultaneously dreadfully boring and insanely powerful:

• I'm still unsure who he works for or in what capacity. He can arrest people and put them in custody of USA, Canda, and/or the International Criminal Court.
• As someone else mentioned, he also seems to have certain diplomatic decision-making powers and responsibilities normally reserved for the US Secretary of State. He mentioned having a "boss" for the first time in this episode, was he referring to the exiled US President??
• He can apparently arrange phone calls/meetings with any and all major players in Gilead, a locked down authoritarian fascist state, inside or outside of the country, with ease.
• He also happens to be one of the most boring/monotone/personality-free tv characters since Gunther on Friends, only with him it isn't a comedic persona it's just... Tuello. The only time he's shown any sort of liveliness was when he whined to June about finding him on his jogging route.

[The Spinster]

I wonder if they are going to show the experience/events through the eyes of Hannah/the children. Her eyes are always so void/vacant/joyless/expressionless. I would like to know how the children in Gilead are coping. What are they told?

[The Spinster]

54 minutes ago, Cornhusker12 said:

More random Tuello thoughts because he is such a strange character,

• He also happens to be one of the most boring/monotone/personality-free tv characters since Gunther on Friends, only with him it isn't a comedic persona it's just... Tuello. The only time he's shown any sort of liveliness was when he whined to June about finding him on his jogging route.

I agree. He really is about as exciting as watching paint dry - a perfect example of a cowardly bureaucrat. He even whined about his safety when meeting with Commander Lawrence. I don't get the attraction everyone is talking about between him and Serena. The man is unbearably dull. Perhaps he supposed to be void of any fire in his belly.  But to what purpose? 

[The Spinster]

June smearing blood on baby Nichole,,, the Warrior returns to the cave and smears her child with the blood of the dragon she has slain. Celebratory and unapologetic. This was my favorite moment. 

She is now beyond Victim, beyond Survivor - she has become a Warrior Woman.

Luke's grief and horror: he still does not grasp what is at stake, not truly. She represented his old, easy life and wants her back in that with him to complete the picture.

My heart broke for him. He isn't bad for wanting what was, but he remains immensely naive ( and I must admit I feel some resentment towards his character that he has this luxury. I find it cowardly. And intellectually and emotionally dishonest of him. At some point here it is a willful blindness, and I think we've just about reached it).

Their mutual recognition that there is no place in Canada (in all that Canada represents) for her.  - or intensely angry women at all, for that matter. All that rage just makes everyone so uncomfortable. 

They are comfortable with the traumatized victims that process their experiences neatly, nicely, - just tell your story in therapy, tell your story in court, just testify one more time for the camera. Be grateful. Be quietly grateful. Be nice. You could fly to Geneva next. Aren't you grateful? Luke says we all need to be grateful and focus on that. Never mind that the Dragon is soon to be free to continue his systematic ravaging of all that is good. Can't you just be grateful??? (Message: The problem is your ingratitude, June - not the dragon!)

Her later musing on the porch about what a "good Mother" would do - grieving the loss of that old role not being enough to truly protect her child or herself. Realizing it never really was enough. The pain of it -the courage of facing the truth of it. So brave.

June's action said "I am the Warrior Mother - I go out, I lay the trap, I hunt the Dragon and I kill the Dragon. One less dragon out there - it's a good day. Now I will show my daughter that the love of a Mother has many faces."  

And I love her for her it. 

[chaifan]

1 hour ago, The Spinster said:

I agree. He really is about as exciting as watching paint dry - a perfect example of a cowardly bureaucrat. He even whined about his safety when meeting with Commander Lawrence. I don't get the attraction everyone is talking about between him and Serena. The man is unbearably dull. Perhaps he supposed to be void of any fire in his belly.  But to what purpose? 

Tuello has, and is supposed to have, the ultimate poker face.  He's constantly playing people, so he can't let them know what he truly thinks/believes.  That's his job. I think the scene with Serena making her list of demands was a perfect example of this.  He just stood there, emotionless, instead of saying what all of us were thinking.  His outburst at June was the rare exception we've seen of his normal composure.  (It was a well deserved outburst, glad to see he actually has emotion.)  I don't find him dull, but I wish we saw a little behind the scenes with him - talking to a boss or co-worker about all this so we see how he processes this.

I also don't get the shipping of him and Serena.  I think he's intrigued by her - a successful, intelligent woman who (seemingly) willfully gave up almost every ounce of her freedom for this new society.  But I don't think he's hot for her in any way.  I think he's been intentionally over the top kind, accommodating to her because she responds well to that and he gets what he wants/needs from her that way.  Again, that's his job. 

 

[Cinnabon]

22 minutes ago, The Spinster said:

June smearing blood on baby Nichole,,, the Warrior returns to the cave and smears her child with the blood of the dragon she has slain. Celebratory and unapologetic. This was my favorite moment. 

She is now beyond Victim, beyond Survivor - she has become a Warrior Woman.

Luke's grief and horror: he still does not grasp what is at stake, not truly. She represented his old, easy life and wants her back in that with him to complete the picture.

My heart broke for him. He isn't bad for wanting what was, but he remains immensely naive ( and I must admit I feel some resentment towards his character that he has this luxury. I find it cowardly. And intellectually and emotionally dishonest of him. At some point here it is a willful blindness, and I think we've just about reached it).

Their mutual recognition that there is no place in Canada (in all that Canada represents) for her.  - or intensely angry women at all, for that matter. All that rage just makes everyone so uncomfortable. 

They are comfortable with the traumatized victims that process their experiences neatly, nicely, - just tell your story in therapy, tell your story in court, just testify one more time for the camera. Be grateful. Be quietly grateful. Be nice. You could fly to Geneva next. Aren't you grateful? Luke says we all need to be grateful and focus on that. Never mind that the Dragon is soon to be free to continue his systematic ravaging of all that is good. Can't you just be grateful??? (Message: The problem is your ingratitude, June - not the dragon!)

Her later musing on the porch about what a "good Mother" would do - grieving the loss of that old role not being enough to truly protect her child or herself. Realizing it never really was enough. The pain of it -the courage of facing the truth of it. So brave.

June's action said "I am the Warrior Mother - I go out, I lay the trap, I hunt the Dragon and I kill the Dragon. One less dragon out there - it's a good day. Now I will show my daughter that the love of a Mother has many faces."  

And I love her for her it. 

Great post! Without these fighters throughout history, where would any of us be? Especially women. 

7 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Tuello has, and is supposed to have, the ultimate poker face.  He's constantly playing people, so he can't let them know what he truly thinks/believes.  That's his job. I think the scene with Serena making her list of demands was a perfect example of this.  He just stood there, emotionless, instead of saying what all of us were thinking.  His outburst at June was the rare exception we've seen of his normal composure.  (It was a well deserved outburst, glad to see he actually has emotion.)  I don't find him dull, but I wish we saw a little behind the scenes with him - talking to a boss or co-worker about all this so we see how he processes this.

I also don't get the shipping of him and Serena.  I think he's intrigued by her - a successful, intelligent woman who (seemingly) willfully gave up almost every ounce of her freedom for this new society.  But I don't think he's hot for her in any way.  I think he's been intentionally over the top kind, accommodating to her because she responds well to that and he gets what he wants/needs from her that way.  Again, that's his job. 

 

He held a lot in when she started making demands for a house and security. I wouldn’t have been able to not laugh in her face.

[Trudilu]

This is my FIRST time posting here; and I chose Handmaids Tale to see what others are thinking!  I didn't realize I was watching the LAST episode of season 4, until it was finished; and I thought -  how are they going to follow this up??

My first feeling was WOW just WOW.  This was not what I expected.  But I undestimated June's anger as well as the other womens anger.  The way she said to Emily - I want him to be AFRAID; and her look of YES! I do too.  I knew something was going to happen but didn't know what.  I thought this was a very powerful ending. 

But my friend asked me a question that I don't know the answer to.  She also loved the finale - but she says to Luke - give me 5 minutes - and then I'll go!  Where is JUNE going?????  Where does she think she is going?  does anybody have any answers?

[Cornhusker12]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I wish we saw a little behind the scenes with him - talking to a boss or co-worker about all this so we see how he processes this.

Yeah I definitely agree. There are tons of fascinating characters in tv/movie history who are supposed to be vague/mysterious/buttoned up/poker-faced, but through the writing and acting we as the audience somehow learn and understand WHY they are that way and for what purpose. I just get nothing from Tuello haha it just feels like a wasted character so far.

[The Spinster]

I keep wondering if Nick is also the real father of Serena's baby.

[Umbelina]

21 hours ago, The Spinster said:

I keep wondering if Nick is also the real father of Serena's baby.

The showrunner confirmed Fred is the daddy of Serena's baby.  In the EW article.

On 6/21/2021 at 1:32 PM, The Spinster said:

June smearing blood on baby Nichole,,, the Warrior returns to the cave and smears her child with the blood of the dragon she has slain. Celebratory and unapologetic. This was my favorite moment. 

She is now beyond Victim, beyond Survivor - she has become a Warrior Woman.

Luke's grief and horror: he still does not grasp what is at stake, not truly. She represented his old, easy life and wants her back in that with him to complete the picture.

My heart broke for him. He isn't bad for wanting what was, but he remains immensely naive ( and I must admit I feel some resentment towards his character that he has this luxury. I find it cowardly. And intellectually and emotionally dishonest of him. At some point here it is a willful blindness, and I think we've just about reached it).

Their mutual recognition that there is no place in Canada (in all that Canada represents) for her.  - or intensely angry women at all, for that matter. All that rage just makes everyone so uncomfortable. 

They are comfortable with the traumatized victims that process their experiences neatly, nicely, - just tell your story in therapy, tell your story in court, just testify one more time for the camera. Be grateful. Be quietly grateful. Be nice. You could fly to Geneva next. Aren't you grateful? Luke says we all need to be grateful and focus on that. Never mind that the Dragon is soon to be free to continue his systematic ravaging of all that is good. Can't you just be grateful??? (Message: The problem is your ingratitude, June - not the dragon!)

Her later musing on the porch about what a "good Mother" would do - grieving the loss of that old role not being enough to truly protect her child or herself. Realizing it never really was enough. The pain of it -the courage of facing the truth of it. So brave.

June's action said "I am the Warrior Mother - I go out, I lay the trap, I hunt the Dragon and I kill the Dragon. One less dragon out there - it's a good day. Now I will show my daughter that the love of a Mother has many faces."  

And I love her for her it. 

Fantastic post! 

Thank you!

I agree with every single word.  

June is the person who fights for freedom, for justice, for the rights and dignity of everyone, doesn't simply accept her own lucky escape and sit back on her ass and say, "so is there some kind of fund I should contribute to?"  No.  She knows what must be done, and is willing to do it.

She never expected to live when she drew fire away from the kids, the Martha's, and the other handmaid's that were supposed to be on that plane to Canada, she just did it.  People blame her for those deaths, but rarely ever credit her for how very many she's helped escape, for how many commander's she's eliminated, for wanting to join the rebels in the fight, not just hide or escape.

People can unexpectedly become leaders, especially in times of great peril, or war.  Audie Murphy was just a kid who lied about his age to join the forces in WWII, and became a medal of honor winner back before medals were handed out like candy, why?  Because there was something inside him that made him not give up, made him not give in, made him protect what may now seem to be obscure values about right and wrong, and his country.

I don't know why some have such a hard time picturing a woman in the hero role, a woman who is not the most attractive thing out there, or strong looking.  Murphy was only 5'5" tall by the way, not your typical he-man hero, but hero he was, and he had much less reason to be that brave.  June has all the reasons, and her ability to win people over, Lawrence (I think he mostly appreciates her sheer audacity, and that she's not the same-ol' same ol',) and Nick, a jaded man who has done horrible things, and has no way out, but will still do what he can for this unusual woman he admires, is a huge asset for the resistance cause.

June speaks truth to power, at this point, after all she's been through, she speaks truth to all power, even her best friend that would just prefer to hide in Canada and rejoice in the fact that she's out, and maybe march or sign a petition to help all those left behind.  June KNOWS it will take much more than that to bring Gilead down, to "save all the children" not just her own, and to eventually free everyone still stuck in Gilead.  She will do whatever it takes.

She gets responses for that, from Lawrence, from Nick, from the other women in that support group, from the handmaids that gave up their own chance at freedom to follow her when she acted as bait to ensure that plane full of kids, Marthas, and (she thought) handmaids were escaping.  Now, she even has Tuello's respect.  She's building a power base, because of who she is, not what she says, but what she has done, and will do.

But sure, let's talk about her close ups some more, and ignore that we are watching an incredible female force of nature defy incredible obscenity and horror to do what is right, no matter the cost.  Let's blame her for deaths, even though she coerced no one.  Let's ignore her accomplishments and want her dead because other characters are more palatable.

June isn't supposed to be palatable.  True heroes are best viewed from the future.  In the present, they may not be all that likable.  Bringing down repressive, horrific regimes isn't tidy or clean or nice, it's messy.  June's a mess, a needed, vital mess.  She's the kind of mess that makes things happen, that does NOT say "that can't be done" and instead says "Why not?"  She uses whatever she has, including her experience with the black market in Jezebels, risks her life to make that contact, and trade for that plane, talks Joseph into bailing for his wife's sake, is willing to let that wife take her own life to protect the project, the goal of rescuing 86 kids and 9 Martha's in spite of her affection and feelings.

Fred was going to skate, she couldn't have that.  It was wrong.  Many former slaves of Gilead agreed with that, and they gave him Gilead justice for his crimes, didn't allow Gilead secret justice for spilling secrets.  Many women got justice that night, Fred represented all of their abusers, the people who stole their children, raped them, used them, treated them as nothing.

Right now I can see a few on screen who will continue to fight for their former country, but mostly for justice and simple decency.  June, Emily, perhaps Janine, and a few of the other women in that Canadian support group.  I think Emily will be a force.

Moira and Luke?  Happy to be safe themselves, would rather write letters and sign petitions, maybe lead a march, but will they ever get their hands dirty?  Doubt it. 

ETA fixed baby daddy response.  

Edited June 22, 2021 by Umbelina

[Anela]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He is.  The showrunner (in the EW article confirmed it.  I never doubted (I've read Testaments) but I can see how others did.

Fantastic post! 

Thank you!

I agree with every single word.  

June is the person who fights for freedom, for justice, for the rights and dignity of everyone, doesn't simply accept her own lucky escape and sit back on her ass and say, "so is there some kind of fund I should contribute to?"  No.  She knows what must be done, and is willing to do it.

She never expected to live when she drew fire away from the kids, the Martha's, and the other handmaid's that were supposed to be on that plane to Canada, she just did it.  People blame her for those deaths, but rarely ever credit her for how very many she's helped escape, for how many commander's she's eliminated, for wanting to join the rebels in the fight, not just hide or escape.

People can unexpectedly become leaders, especially in times of great peril, or war.  Audie Murphy was just a kid who lied about his age to join the forces in WWII, and became a medal of honor winner back before medals were handed out like candy, why?  Because there was something inside him that made him not give up, made him not give in, made him protect what may now seem to be obscure values about right and wrong, and his country.

I don't know why some have such a hard time picturing a woman in the hero role, a woman who is not the most attractive thing out there, or strong looking.  Murphy was only 5'5" tall by the way, not your typical he-man hero, but hero he was, and he had much less reason to be that brave.  June has all the reasons, and her ability to win people over, Lawrence (I think he mostly appreciates her sheer audacity, and that she's not the same-ol' same ol',) and Nick, a jaded man who has done horrible things, and has no way out, but will still do what he can for this unusual woman he admires, is a huge asset for the resistance cause.

June speaks truth to power, at this point, after all she's been through, she speaks truth to all power, even her best friend that would just prefer to hide in Canada and rejoice in the fact that she's out, and maybe march or sign a petition to help all those left behind.  June KNOWS it will take much more than that to bring Gilead down, to "save all the children" not just her own, and to eventually free everyone still stuck in Gilead.  She will do whatever it takes.

She gets responses for that, from Lawrence, from Nick, from the other women in that support group, from the handmaids that gave up their own chance at freedom to follow her when she acted as bait to ensure that plane full of kids, Marthas, and (she thought) handmaids were escaping.  Now, she even has Tuello's respect.  She's building a power base, because of who she is, not what she says, but what she has done, and will do.

But sure, let's talk about her close ups some more, and ignore that we are watching an incredible female force of nature defy incredible obscenity and horror to do what is right, no matter the cost.  Let's blame her for deaths, even though she coerced no one.  Let's ignore her accomplishments and want her dead because other characters are more palatable.

June isn't supposed to be palatable.  True heroes are best viewed from the future.  In the present, they may not be all that likable.  Bringing down repressive, horrific regimes isn't tidy or clean or nice, it's messy.  June's a mess, a needed, vital mess.  She's the kind of mess that makes things happen, that does NOT say "that can't be done" and instead says "Why not?"  She uses whatever she has, including her experience with the black market in Jezebels, risks her life to make that contact, and trade for that plane, talks Joseph into bailing for his wife's sake, is willing to let that wife take her own life to protect the project, the goal of rescuing 86 kids and 9 Martha's in spite of her affection and feelings.

Fred was going to skate, she couldn't have that.  It was wrong.  Many former slaves of Gilead agreed with that, and they gave him Gilead justice for his crimes, didn't allow Gilead secret justice for spilling secrets.  Many women got justice that night, Fred represented all of their abusers, the people who stole their children, raped them, used them, treated them as nothing.

Right now I can see a few on screen who will continue to fight for their former country, but mostly for justice and simple decency.  June, Emily, perhaps Janine, and a few of the other women in that Canadian support group.  I think Emily will be a force.

Moira and Luke?  Happy to be safe themselves, would rather write letters and sign petitions, maybe lead a march, but will they ever get their hands dirty?  Doubt it. 

I don't hate her, but I also don't think that Moira is doing nothing. She's doing valuable work, when she could just walk away, and do something else, if she really didn't want to be involved anymore. She travelled with fake papers, back to a place where they could kidnap her, if they recognized her, in order to help others. 

Emily has been timid, since she's been in Canada, but June was wrong to force her to talk to the woman, when she set boundaries. She was finally able to say "NO" and June shut her down. Emily only felt better, when the woman hung herself. 

[Umbelina]

Well, Emily is not timid anymore, and she looks much happier.

ETA Gilead beat Emily down, but even when they did?  She fought.  She joined Mayday before June knew what it was.  She stole a car and ran over two soldiers.  She tried, and nearly succeeded in beating Lydia to death.  She personally killed a "wife" in the colonies.  

She started out a powerful college professor, ended up in Moira's support group listening to clap trap about forgiveness and moving on.  Then June arrives, and Emily remembered who she was before.  A strong woman who takes crap from no one.

She's ready to fight, and fighting is what it's going to take.  This wasn't her first step into fighting, but it was a well needed reminder of who she is.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Umbelina

[The Spinster]

On 6/20/2021 at 12:38 PM, chaifan said:

Didn't June mention being raped while pregnant during her testimony scene?  I don't recall if she mentioned Serena's involvement in that.

I have to assume that June has been fully, completely, totally debriefed, and every incident that occurred to her personally or that she knows of has been documented, including who was responsible.  Same with Rita and everyone else who was on that plane or otherwise got out of Gilead. 

 

Fred turned Serena in for her part in that rape when he realized Serena had traded him/betrayed him for her passage in to Canada to be with Nichole.

[Umbelina]

Maybe if June was a man people would applaud her, especially if she was a handsome man, imagine the support if you just switch genders and cast a hunk.

[dmc]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Maybe if June was a man people would applaud her, especially if she was a handsome man, imagine the support if you just switch genders and cast a hunk.

This!!!!!!!  

[chaifan]

@Umbelina, double check your post above responding to @The Spinster's theory as to the father of Serena's child.  I think you may have misread it.  Either that, or I read a totally different article than you!  😁

[Umbelina]

29 minutes ago, chaifan said:

@Umbelina, double check your post above responding to @The Spinster's theory as to the father of Serena's child.  I think you may have misread it.  Either that, or I read a totally different article than you!  😁

Fred's the daddy of Serena's child.  Ooops!  Will fix!  THANK YOU!

Edited June 22, 2021 by Umbelina

[Anela]

37 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Well, Emily is not timid anymore, and she looks much happier.

ETA Gilead beat Emily down, but even when they did?  She fought.  She joined Mayday before June knew what it was.  She stole a car and ran over two soldiers.  She tried, and nearly succeeded in beating Lydia to death.  She personally killed a "wife" in the colonies.  

She started out a powerful college professor, ended up in Moira's support group listening to clap trap about forgiveness and moving on.  Then June arrives, and Emily remembered who she was before.  A strong woman who takes crap from no one.

She's ready to fight, and fighting is what it's going to take.  This wasn't her first step into fighting, but it was a well needed reminder of who she is.

Yes, but Moira is doing what is right for herself - something she couldn't do, when she was at Jezebels, or at the red centre. She isn't worse than June, because she doesn't want to tear a man apart, or cut his dick off.

I had no problem with what June did - you don't need to fight me. I wouldn't be applauding if a man forced Emily to face someone she did not want to talk to. Binge-watching this, to catch up, actually brought up certain things for me. I haven't been raped, but I've dealt with violence before, and I was extremely emotional. I remember when I  was told that i should shake the hand of my sexual harasser, because it would make his wife (a family member) feel better, and I was expected to move on. I told them they shouldn't have told me to do that - I shook his hand, and I just wanted to get out of there, and wash my hand. To get away from him, and I've dealt with a fraction of what they put these women through. 

28 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe if June was a man people would applaud her, especially if she was a handsome man, imagine the support if you just switch genders and cast a hunk.

 No. I've never been one to excuse someone, or cheer them on, because they're a good-looking man. 

28 minutes ago, dmc said:

This!!!!!!!  

As I said, that wouldn't work for me, and I totally agreed with your post in this thread from the other day, when I saw it after I posted my own reaction last night.

[Anela]

On 6/16/2021 at 11:24 AM, dmc said:

They have been living in a barbaric world.  I don't think it's feminist fantasy to see someone who stole your life pay.  I am fairly certain if you talk to male victims, they probably have the same fantasies.  Especially when the justice system fails them.  June had every intention of letting the government try Fred.  And they screwed her over.  Not only did they screw her over, but they screwed her in the most callous way possible.  June tells Tuello...the weakness of men in power she means him.  She came to Canada expecting justice from men like Tuello and he basically again placed a male over the women hurt.  It is what it is.  Gilead is largely a place that places men over women and then she came to Canada to have the same.  I can understand not condoning this but the fact that people cannot understand the rage of not being able to control your own body and having your child stolen from you 

 

 

This is the post that I agreed with, after I'd posted my own reaction. You don't see people looking down on John Wick, for running around and shooting people. People cheered when Rick tore out a man's throat with his teeth, on The Walking Dead. We've seen women be pushed off buildings, by men. Lose their eyes, for speaking out. Children were threatened by an ass who wanted handmaids back, just for his ego. I don't like Lawrence. 

[Umbelina]

On 6/18/2021 at 8:56 PM, BrindaWalsh said:

I'd like to know how they found a wall in the woods on such short notice.

From the photo, it looked like part of an old bridge.  Nick would have known June wanted him on the wall, she certainly made it clear to everyone else, so he could pick the right place.

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, Anela said:

Yes, but Moira is doing what is right for herself - something she couldn't do, when she was at Jezebels, or at the red centre. She isn't worse than June, because she doesn't want to tear a man apart, or cut his dick off.

I didn't say Moira was worse, or better for that matter.  I'm saying that Moira is settling for a false security, trying to do as much good as she can, she's worked hard with refugees for a long time.  Is that valueless?  Absolutely not, except when she tries to direct their feelings instead of listening to them, and what THEY need.

What Moira won't do though?  Is stop Gilead.  That's June's goal and she will continue to fight it until she dies or helps bring it down.

Moira thinks she's safe now, but really?  She's a refugee living in a rather powerless country VERY close to Gilead.  As long as Gilead exists, and she is still a citizen of that country, based on her being a US citizen and them taking it over?  She's not really safe.  

No one is while Gilead exists.  I think June gets that.  I think Emily gets that.  I think a lot of the refugees, especially those that were handmaids get that.

False security is no security at all.

16 minutes ago, Anela said:

I had no problem with what June did - you don't need to fight me. I wouldn't be applauding if a man forced Emily to face someone she did not want to talk to. Binge-watching this, to catch up, actually brought up certain things for me. I haven't been raped, but I've dealt with violence before, and I was extremely emotional. I remember when I  was told that i should shake the hand of my sexual harasser, because it would make his wife (a family member) feel better, and I was expected to move on. I told them they shouldn't have told me to do that - I shook his hand, and I just wanted to get out of there, and wash my hand. To get away from him, and I've dealt with a fraction of what they put these women through. 

I'm so sorry.

I've had a similar experience, and it's kind of on going, since it's my best friend's husband and my God children's dad.

ETA

Ex husband now thank God.  Oh, and no, I don't forgive him, I don't forget, I think he should be grateful he's not dead.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

BTW, Maybe it's that I'm older, but I'm not really the June type either, not that fearless, not that willing to give up my life for a cause, no matter how great.

I know one thing though, I'd be long gone from Canada if I were the pacifist type.  Hawaii maybe, but more likely someplace in Europe that I could be sure wouldn't extradite me, or that would allow me to become a full fledged citizen.  At the very least, some place further away than a short car or boat ride from Gilead.  

If I was going to flee rather than fight?  I'd flee further away.

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

She personally killed a "wife" in the colonies.  

In fairness, the Wife's crimes against the state of Gilead were never mentioned and knowing that wives really aren't getting much choice in being wives or in being raped or gangbanged by their husband's buddies, I'm not sure Emily really deserves applause for cold bloodedly murdering a woman who may have been guilty of nothing but pissing off her husband. 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

In fairness, the Wife's crimes against the state of Gilead were never mentioned and knowing that wives really aren't getting much choice in being wives or in being raped or gangbanged by their husband's buddies, I'm not sure Emily really deserves applause for cold bloodedly murdering a woman who may have been guilty of nothing but pissing off her husband. 

I used that as an example of who Emily really is.  I didn't mention applause or criticism for that.

She was part of the regime, she held women down so they could be raped.  For Emily?  That was enough.

[Anela]

20 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

BTW, Maybe it's that I'm older, but I'm not really the June type either, not that fearless, not that willing to give up my life for a cause, no matter how great.

I know one thing though, I'd be long gone from Canada if I were the pacifist type.  Hawaii maybe, but more likely someplace in Europe that I could be sure wouldn't extradite me, or that would allow me to become a full fledged citizen.  At the very least, some place further away than a short car or boat ride from Gilead.  

If I was going to flee rather than fight?  I'd flee further away.

She's there to help women like her. She also wanted to find her best friend. They are all fighting and helping in their own ways. 

I also think that Luke needing a minute, after he walks into the bedroom, half-awake, and sees his wife covered in blood, is a perfectly natural reaction. 

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Anela said:

She's there to help women like her. She also wanted to find her best friend. They are all fighting and helping in their own ways. 

Maybe so.  

I don't think she's thinking clearly though.  A clear and present danger is one footstep away from the country where she's hiding out and thinking she's safe.

ETA

I don't know how much she's helping now.  She certainly did help in the beginning.   That group seemed to turn on her pretty fast, they wouldn't have done that if she was meeting their needs or helping them.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I used that as an example of who Emily really is.  I didn't mention applause or criticism for that.

You're holding her as an example of a good fighter against Gilead. My point is that her rage isn't necessarily productive. Killing people because they're oppressing you? I'm down with that. Killing someone who might have been an oppressor because you're so enraged you don't bother to find out any details because you just want to explode your rage on a target? Not such a good thing. 

And you were citing this as an example of how Emily stood up to Gilead by fighting. My point is that by just rage murdering someone, we really have no idea if this was a good act or not. Emily's ease in killing versus Moira's hesitance is a trade off. The overall disturbing aspect of this, if we take it a step further, is that the handmaids who are willingly participating in tearing a man apart are in danger of becoming exactly the thing they hate. Nietzsche said it - "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

That's what June and to a lesser extent Emily and the other handmaids are risking.

[Umbelina]

11 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

You're holding her as an example of a good fighter against Gilead. My point is that her rage isn't necessarily productive. Killing people because they're oppressing you? I'm down with that. Killing someone who might have been an oppressor because you're so enraged you don't bother to find out any details because you just want to explode your rage on a target? Not such a good thing. 

And you were citing this as an example of how Emily stood up to Gilead by fighting. My point is that by just rage murdering someone, we really have no idea if this was a good act or not. Emily's ease in killing versus Moira's hesitance is a trade off. The overall disturbing aspect of this, if we take it a step further, is that the handmaids who are willingly participating in tearing a man apart are in danger of becoming exactly the thing they hate. Nietzsche said it - "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you."

That's what June and to a lesser extent Emily and the other handmaids are risking.

No.

I specifically mentioned it was about who Emily WAS, and was from the beginning, before she ever met June.

I'm saying that petitions will not bring down Gilead. 

The goals are different.

Moira just wants peace and happiness and safety, and that's fine for Moira.  What's not fine is trying to force those beliefs on others when you've made yourself a leader of a support group.

June, and I think Emily?   Want more.  They want Gilead gone, and everyone imprisoned in hell there free.  That will not, IMO, happen peacefully.  That's why Emily joined Mayday, to fight.  That's why Emily recruited June.  To fight.

They win?  They are heroes.

They lose?  They are terrorists.

Victors write history.

ETA

Which type do I admire?  Probably those who fight for justice, and for others, not just for themselves, and their own personal safety.

Edited June 22, 2021 by Umbelina