S04.E06: Vows

[Ms Blue Jay]

47 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

No - remember, Moira said in the flashback that Luke leaves his wives when they can't reproduce. And there was a series of flashback scenes in a previous season where Annie finds out about Luke and June's affair, and after Luke has left Annie for June, they show Annie seeing Luke and June and baby Hannah in a restaurant. June sees that Annie sees them (Luke doesn't see her) and rubs her relationship with Luke and their baby in Annie's face, making eye contact with Annie and making a show of snuggling with Hannah. Annie leaves upset.

Thank you so much for all of this :) 

[aghst]

I think in reality there would be a lot of defections.

I know the terrain in many places is rough but it's a very long border, longer than the border with Mexico.

Gilead has its hands full with other borders and it doesn't have the manpower to patrol all of it.

Think of the Underground Railroad in the 19th century.  Again, shorter borders but people made it out of the Confederacy.

I would think escapes like Luke's and Emily's would be far more common.

They showed at times Guardians on almost every corner.  But obviously not all the times or else June's schemes would never have gone anywhere.

Even the part of the country that Gilead controls is huge, so they can't keep Handmaids and Marthas from getting out of a city.  Hell look at Chicago.  The reason they can't control it is it's too big and they'd have to constantly search door to door to secure it.  

They don't have the manpower to search all of it once, let alone on a regular basis.  They could use their air power to level the whole city but it won't kill everyone

So they can't occupy whole cities and they can't patrol the whole border.  Gilead should be a sieve.

[Kel Varnsen]

14 minutes ago, aghst said:

So they can't occupy whole cities and they can't patrol the whole border.  Gilead should be a sieve.

The whole logic of Gilead's security forces and military doesn't make much sense. Like they have a large enough force to patrol I guess like Michigan or Huron,  for people crossing to Canada even though Chicago (and I assume west) is territory they haven't taken over. But at the same time the Waterfords were able to drive into Canada on a paved road (so like into Quebec I guess) without a single person or checkpoint stopping them.

[SourK]

 

8 hours ago, ReganX said:

The oppressive regimes aren't necessarily going to be in a position where they can afford to lose people's labour, education and skills. Somebody who doesn't like the regime but who keeps their head down, does their job and gets on with their life as best they can because they're afraid of being imprisoned or executed is useful to the regime.

In the case of Gilead, they have a vested interest in keeping children and fertile women in the country.

Yes. By their nature, oppressive regimes need to oppress someone in order to function. No one wants to be oppressed so, if they're able to freely leave that situation, they will. If Gilead let its entire oppressed class leave, it would have to create a new one by downgrading people from the ruling class... who would then ALSO not want to be oppressed, and also leave. The only way oppressive regimes survive is through keeping people there by force.

[Black Knight]

23 hours ago, SourK said:

The only way oppressive regimes survive is through keeping people there by force.

Indeed. And additionally, for someone to leave they have to be able to go somewhere. But other countries generally have rules: Refugee caps, applications for asylum that may be rejected, and so forth. When you look at the number of refugees countries around the globe accept versus the number of people living in oppressive regimes, it's clear there isn't a path for most of the latter.

Canada's current policy of accepting anyone (apparently) who makes it over the border from Gilead is probably because there are few people making it over to begin with. How many people are living in terror and oppression in Gilead? Even with the reduced land area Gilead controls and the population decrease from the low birth rate for years plus all the people who have been killed, it still must run into the millions. There is no way Canada would accept millions of refugees from Gilead even if it wasn't afraid of Gilead's military might.

One of the greatest analogous moments in history was during WWII when the resistance in Denmark managed to smuggle virtually all of the Danish Jews by boat to neutral Sweden. But that number was only 7,220 Jews plus a few hundred non-Jewish spouses, as it was a very small Jewish population in Denmark, only 8000. Sweden could easily take in that number of refugees without blinking. Meanwhile, six million Jews died in the death camps.

[ReganX]

27 minutes ago, Black Knight said:

Canada's current policy of accepting anyone (apparently) who makes it over the border from Gilead is probably because there are few people making it over to begin with. How many people are living in terror and oppression in Gilead? Even with the reduced land area Gilead controls and the population decrease from the low birth rate for years plus all the people who have been killed, it still must run into the millions. There is no way Canada would accept millions of refugees from Gilead even if it wasn't afraid of Gilead's military might.

The exiled United States government seems to have control of Hawaii but that's not going to be able to hold all of the refugees from Gilead.

It would be interesting to learn if any other countries accept refugees from Gilead.

I'm Irish, and under our citizenship laws, anybody with an Irish grandparent is entitled to claim Irish citizenship. That would probably apply to a fair number of people in Gilead.

[tvgoddess]

1 hour ago, Black Knight said:

One of the greatest analogous moments in history was during WWII when the resistance in Denmark managed to smuggle virtually all of the Danish Jews by boat to neutral Sweden. But that number was only 7,220 Jews plus a few hundred non-Jewish spouses, as it was a very small Jewish population in Denmark, only 8000. Sweden could easily take in that number of refugees without blinking. Meanwhile, six million Jews died in the death camps.

Quick off topic: Early last year, I went to see the Holocaust survivor speaker, Rabbi Bent Melchoir, the son of the Rabbi who stopped his Rosh Hashanah services to warn his congregation about the upcoming arrests of Danish Jews by the Nazis. So amazing and powerful.

Back to the show, I saw something that talked about how June's moving boxes were from the publisher of that book editing firm that she used to work for prior to Gilead. Pretty cool to have that kind of continuity.

Edited May 22, 2021 by tvgoddess

[Zonk]

On 5/20/2021 at 11:01 PM, The Mighty Peanut said:

Even plot armor wouldn't have kept June safe.

You severely underestimate June's plot armour. It is made from unobtainium, gathered from a dying star, forged into form in the fires of mount doom. Never has there been plot armor the likes of this one.

On 5/19/2021 at 2:50 PM, ReganX said:

Better still, keep June's arrival in Canada quiet for at least a few weeks, and then drop her off at a location on the border to be "found" by Canadian border patrol.

I've read this sentiment a few times in this thread.

You guys need to think a bit more like an intelligence service would. You don't need to give a convincing story. You just need to obfuscate the real one.

Of course you swear all the people on the boat to secrecy, but in case there is a blabbermouth in there, you start a bunch of rumours at the same time.

"I heard Mayday smuggled her out on a fishing boat."

"I heard she was actually on the angel flight and the government kept it a secret." (Gilead would know this one is fake, because of the timeline, but it adds to the noise.)

"I heard she had contacts in Gileads trade ministery, that's how she knew about the flight that would become the angel flight. They must have gotten her out on a cargo transport."

"I heard after the angel flight she was a hero to the common people of Gilead and they banded together to smuggle her across the border."

etc.

Maybe get a few good stabs at the regime in there at the same time.

Then have June just show up at a Toronto hospital so none of these are more plausible than the other.

I mean who would believe the real story? Wanted criminal in Gilead, Moira Strand, went back to Gilead under an assumed name, as an NGO worker and just happened to stumble upon her best friend in bombed out Chicago, a war zone, when they both were from Boston and had never left the general area as long as Gilead had existed? Nobody would believe that story. It's bonkers!

Edited May 22, 2021 by Zonk

[AngelaHunter]

4 hours ago, Zonk said:

You severely underestimate June's plot armour. It is made from unobtainium, gathered from a dying star, forged into form in the fires of mount doom. Never has there been plot armor the likes of this one.

That's what I was thinking when Moira was so terrified that if June goes back, she'll die. I may have even said out loud, "Don't be silly. Of course she won't die."

Maybe I just don't remember, but have we ever heard June mention her other daughter? Moira mentioned her but got no reaction.

Not sure why June was apologizing to Luke. He skedaddled and left his wife and daughter to be enslaved, abused, and raped in that hell on earth.

[Kel Varnsen]

8 hours ago, Black Knight said:

There is no way Canada would accept millions of refugees from Gilead even if it wasn't afraid of Gilead's military might.

Maybe not millions but I can easily see them accepting a ton of refugees and possibly even setting up agreements with other allies to send refugees there. Because if birth rates are down significantly, developed nations like Canada are going to need a pretty steady flow of immigrants to keep the economy running. Immigrants from Gilead would likely be working age, and would likely already speak english. If they were former handmaids the fact that they might have kids would be an added bonus.

[Black Knight]

33 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Because if birth rates are down significantly, developed nations like Canada are going to need a pretty steady flow of immigrants to keep the economy running.

It would be logical, but there are already a number of countries dealing with the issue of an older populace and that's not how they have reacted, because logic does not always drive policy decisions. In the world of THT, we've already had references to Canadians complaining about refugees from Gilead even though, as I noted, the number of refugees coming over can't be all that many. It was a big deal early in the show when a Martha who had gotten over the border was talking shit about Gilead, it was a big deal when letters were smuggled out of Gilead into Canada that demonstrated the abuse of women in Gilead, and the Angels' Flight was a big deal. This episode made sure to emphasize the latter.

Speaking of, I didn't mind that they spent an episode on June getting from Chicago to Canada. Yes, that could have been done in 15 minutes or so. But it's such a monumental shift for the series to have June make it to Canada, and to have that initial step off the boat into Canadian territory deserved to be an episode ender (no matter how old hat ending on an Elisabeth Moss close-up has gotten). I honestly didn't think it was going to happen; I thought June would cast off from the ship in a lifeboat, to keep the NGO from being risked and/or to continue her attempts to retrieve Hannah. Such a monumental shift deserves an episode, even if it was a short one. (I'm firmly of the belief that streaming services especially should let episodes be the running time that is warranted, instead of insisting that it has to be X length. A show like 13 Reasons Why suffered so much from that when there was no reason for it.)

Janine won't be dead. With June and Emily in Canada, and Alma and Brianna dead, she's the only one left to represent the point of view of the Handmaid in Gilead. I'm guessing she'll be recovered by Gilead forces and handed over to Aunt Lydia. So when they feel the need to show the Handmaid POV, they can go to Janine.

[Black Knight]

On 5/22/2021 at 12:11 PM, ReganX said:

I'm Irish, and under our citizenship laws, anybody with an Irish grandparent is entitled to claim Irish citizenship. That would probably apply to a fair number of people in Gilead.

Gilead doesn't have official diplomatic relations with most countries, though, I think. And it also doesn't seem like there is normal regular travel happening - it was a big deal when the representatives from, um, Mexico? were coming and the Handmaids had to scrub the blood off the wall to hide the stuff that Gilead does to its people. And obviously Gilead has no interest in allowing anyone to leave.

So someone can claim Irish citizenship, but with no Irish embassy to help process the claim and really no way to get to Ireland other than a sanctioned-by-Gilead flight, and other countries treading carefully because of Gilead's nukes, I don't think it helps much. Being able to claim Canadian or Mexican citizenship would be more helpful because at least people making a land escape over the north or south border is possible, and with Canadian/Mexican citizenship they could be absolutely secure of not being deported back to Gilead because they would have citizenship status rather than refugee/asylum status. I don't really see how they could get access to the kind of airplane or boat that can make a transatlantic journey to Ireland.

If people stuck in Gilead could start the process of claiming citizenship in another country as a way of getting out, I'd have to think that Emily would have tried that after she wasn't allowed to leave Gilead. Her marriage entitles her to apply for Canadian citizenship. Gilead doesn't recognize her marriage but Canada does; Canada would likely have approved her application for citizenship, especially given the circumstances (her wife could have made a massive public stink if the Canadian government hesitated). Gilead is just not letting people leave, and with no official diplomatic relationships and being the military heavyweight, they don't have to play nice with other countries on this score.

[ReganX]

5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

Gilead doesn't have official diplomatic relations with most countries, though, I think. And it also doesn't seem like there is normal regular travel happening - it was a big deal when the representatives from, um, Mexico? were coming and the Handmaids had to scrub the blood off the wall to hide the stuff that Gilead does to its people. And obviously Gilead has no interest in allowing anyone to leave.

I was thinking more in terms of easing the burden on Canada, given that there would be a limited number of refugees that they would have the capacity to host. If some of those who make it from Gilead to Canada have the option of going elsewhere, and avail of it, Canada is less likely to be in a position where they turn away refugees at the border because they can't cope with the numbers.

[EllaWycliffe]

3 hours ago, ReganX said:

I was thinking more in terms of easing the burden on Canada, given that there would be a limited number of refugees that they would have the capacity to host. If some of those who make it from Gilead to Canada have the option of going elsewhere, and avail of it, Canada is less likely to be in a position where they turn away refugees at the border because they can't cope with the numbers.

Actually when Moira was getting the "Welcome to Canada" talk, it was mentioned that some refugees get sent to other countries. 

[LBS]

Full picture of June on the boat

[Anela]

Oh god damn it June, RUN! I know you’re in shock, but all of those handmaids haven’t died so that you could get caught get again!

Moira is the best friend that anyone could have.  Aside from Janine.   
 

whew.  

[mostlylurking]

On 5/13/2021 at 8:37 PM, mamadrama said:

They should've sneaked her in, drove further east once they got to Canada, and had someone "find" her like they did Emily. Then they could've offered political asylum. 

This is what I was thinking too. Everyone already knew she was on the run. I’m sure refugees attempt to cross the border every day so it doesn’t seem like it would be that hard to stage. 

That said, I did tear up at Moira and June in the truck. I can of course see why Moira wouldn’t want to leave her behind (again). These humanitarian workers are put in such impossible situations. It was even more poignant to watch the scene where all the people were storming the fence, as this is literally happening in our world right this second. Frightening.

Edited August 17, 2021 by mostlylurking

[Beatriceblake]

I'm catching up and boy was this episode grim. Moira tanking her relationship with Oona to save running on fumes, survivor's guilt ridden June. I do think the most important and effective part was seeing the people trapped behind the gates in Gilead. Anybody who lives, not in a war zone, blocks that reality out and goes about their life.

It's a horrible irony that the people who do want to help others to the point of going into danger also have to learn to ignore the real and present cries for help from hundreds of people because they can't save all of them.

I thought the episode could have used more restraint in the writing though. As other people have said, once June has snuck onto the boat, it's not realistic (just melodramatic) that they would consider giving her up. Also pragmatically if the authorities realise June is on the boat, there's no way she saves the rest of them by going "oh I snuck on without their knowledge".

Best case scenario Gilead now has a fun NGO full of prisoners/bargaining tools and worst case scenario, they are all publicly executed in Gilead for crimes against the state and for being complicit in what Gilead sees as the kidnapping of the children of its most powerful citizens.

Edited January 3, 2022 by Beatriceblake

[mmecorday]

Jeez, I have been binge watching this series with my girlfriend and I was hoarse from yelling at the screen, "June, you can't help Hannah if you are dead!" I thought for sure she was going to get into that lifeboat. Thank gawd Moira was there to stop her and talk some sense into her.