S04.E5: Chicago

[Bannon]

I understand the plot armor on June, at every other character's expense, is a little tedious, and the show isn't great at action, in either writing or direction, but I see June simply as a character, who, at this point is simply committed to Total War, for completely plausible reasons. Frankly, I find it more implausible that more characters haven't reached that point. June, like anyone, can still be broken under torture, but perhaps the most implausible event this season is that June didn't efficiently shove the cattle prod down Lydia's throat at the crossing, before running.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I understand the plot armor on June, at every other character's expense, is a little tedious, and the show isn't great at action, in either writing or direction, but I see June simply as a character, who, at this point is simply committed to Total War, for completely plausible reasons. Frankly, I find it more implausible that more characters haven't reached that point. June, like anyone, can still be broken under torture, but perhaps the most implausible event this season is that June didn't efficiently shove the cattle prod down Lydia's throat at the crossing, before running.

Lydia's "plot armor."

[Bannon]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Lydia's "plot armor."

no doubt

[akr]

17 hours ago, chocolatine said:

What kind of person asks a loved one to join them in something so dangerous?

Someone who knows their loved one is committed to the same cause?

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

What a small world it is, June and Moira just happen to run into each other in the middle of recently bombed Chicago . . .

. . . 

The big non Moira shock of the episode was seeing people in Gilead actually doing fun things, with a bunch of the Aunts playing cards, listening to music, working out, etc. I thought that everyone in Gilead except for the Commanders at Jezebels spent every second of the day doing their assigned task or sitting around being sad.

No kidding on the Moira point! That felt utterly implausible.

As for the playing cards, treadmill etc., it made me think of the rec room of a mental hospital (at least as they're portrayed on TV/in movies) - there may be things there to keep you occupied, but I'm not sure I'd characterize it as having fun. I think their assigned task in this instance is waiting for the next assignment; in Lydia's case, maybe she's there while they figure out whether to put her back into commission in some fashion, or get rid of her (do bad Aunts go to the colonies?), or a sort of purgatory while she reflects on her failures, so that she's more controllable in her next outing.  

[EllaWycliffe]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

The big non Moira shock of the episode was seeing people in Gilead actually doing fun things, with a bunch of the Aunts playing cards, listening to music, working out, etc. I thought that everyone in Gilead except for the Commanders at Jezebels spent every second of the day doing their assigned task or sitting around being sad.

Honestly it was nice to see this because I really don't see why anyone is buying into Gilead after the initial fun of being a misogynistic ass  and anti- gay bigot wears off. If you're a woman, you're totally fucked - at best you're allowed to knit and garden. That's if your arranged husband doesn't get his jollies arranging your rape by his buddies since he can't impregnate you. If you're not young aka able to breed, you become a household slave or maybe an "econowife". If you're 14 and able to breed - you're married to whoever happens to need a wife. If you're divorced/slutty in a prior life/ and still fertile, you're a Handmaid where you're raped forcibly.  If you're a man and gay, you're dead. If you're a man and young and straight, you're conscripted into guarding women you can never touch, until you're maybe chosen to marry and then you take what you get. Even a Commander is constrained - if the wife is infertile, he can NEVER have sex with his wife and can only have sex standing up, against a bed, with his wife watching him fuck a handmaid. A commander might have Jezebel's but if he's caught out, he's screwed. There's no music to speak of - it seems forbidden except when its not, art is forbidden, no books, no tv, no movies, no plays, no forms of entertainment. I mean, were the Commanders so desperate for once a month sex with someone not their wife that spending their lives in misery is worth it? Utterly no one is having any fun here.

[ally8620000]

18 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if Moira was there early as a volunteer aid worker, and caught caught in the sudden last minute bombing ordered by the Commanders?

Either way, June and Moira together again, for a while at least!

I was so excited to see Moira but I'm already annoyed because at this point I just want to smack June and say "Just go to Canada with Moira" but we all know that won't happen.  I can't imagine leaving my child behind but at this point she might do more good telling her story to the world and getting other countries to help take down Gilead.  Its going to annoy the hell out of me when she stays. 

[Umbelina]

6 minutes ago, ally8620000 said:

I was so excited to see Moira but I'm already annoyed because at this point I just want to smack June and say "Just go to Canada with Moira" but we all know that won't happen.  I can't imagine leaving my child behind but at this point she might do more good telling her story to the world and getting other countries to help take down Gilead.  Its going to annoy the hell out of me when she stays. 

I was so moved by that scene, even if it was improbable, things like that can happen, and it was just a joy to see Moira and June together again.

June's changed, and not changed.  I doubt she will leave Hannah/Agnes to life in that horrible system.  She's full on a freedom fighter/revolutionary now, intent on bringing down all the bastards in Gilead, even if she dies trying.  If she can't get Hannah out, she will fight to take it all down, and save her that way.

She's just far beyond trying to escape herself now, I think last season when she, as bait, lead the Gilead forces away from that plane full of kids and Martha's (and she thought, handmaids) she's made it clear she's willing to die to save others, and to try to end Gilead. 

[Bannon]

47 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Honestly it was nice to see this because I really don't see why anyone is buying into Gilead after the initial fun of being a misogynistic ass  and anti- gay bigot wears off. If you're a woman, you're totally fucked - at best you're allowed to knit and garden. That's if your arranged husband doesn't get his jollies arranging your rape by his buddies since he can't impregnate you. If you're not young aka able to breed, you become a household slave or maybe an "econowife". If you're 14 and able to breed - you're married to whoever happens to need a wife. If you're divorced/slutty in a prior life/ and still fertile, you're a Handmaid where you're raped forcibly.  If you're a man and gay, you're dead. If you're a man and young and straight, you're conscripted into guarding women you can never touch, until you're maybe chosen to marry and then you take what you get. Even a Commander is constrained - if the wife is infertile, he can NEVER have sex with his wife and can only have sex standing up, against a bed, with his wife watching him fuck a handmaid. A commander might have Jezebel's but if he's caught out, he's screwed. There's no music to speak of - it seems forbidden except when its not, art is forbidden, no books, no tv, no movies, no plays, no forms of entertainment. I mean, were the Commanders so desperate for once a month sex with someone not their wife that spending their lives in misery is worth it? Utterly no one is having any fun here.

The sadists are, which is typical of totalitarian regimes. A martha who beats women all day may be living her ideal life. Perry Como, waterboarding away at the prison, is in heaven. I'm sure there are plenty of sadist commanders who have free reign to torture away.

[EllaWycliffe]

Just now, Bannon said:

The sadists are, which is typical of totalitarian regimes. A martha who beats women all day may be living her ideal life. Perry Como, waterboarding away at the prison, is in heaven. I'm sure there are plenty of sadist commanders who have free reign to torture away.

These people always exist but they aren't that high a number in the population. I agree they exist and are likely happy in Gilead, but they can't exerting the control needed to make Gilead a country conquering juggernaut. 

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

These people always exist but they aren't that high a number in the population. I agree they exist and are likely happy in Gilead, but they can't exerting the control needed to make Gilead a country conquering juggernaut. 

You also need to factor in an important question though.  What will happen to them if they don't?

The wall?  The colonies?  Neither are very good options.  Many people will do whatever it takes to avoid death or torture.  Also factor in the religious fanatic true believers who think they are doing it for a Godly country.  

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

These people always exist but they aren't that high a number in the population. I agree they exist and are likely happy in Gilead, but they can't exerting the control needed to make Gilead a country conquering juggernaut. 

I don't get the impression they are a conquering juggernaut. Many years after seizing power, the regime is still fighting a significant insurgency, and does not control significant tracts of land. It's not been spelled out, but I think Gilead is a lot like present day Russia, stunted, but fearsome militarily, in good measure due to a large remaining stockpile of nuclear weapons.

[EllaWycliffe]

If I recall correctly the show began 3-5 years after the revolution and its been maybe three years in show time since. So America went from America to Gilead in a very short period of time... I'd call it a juggarnaut. I just don't see the show being run by sadists and sociopaths. They're clearly in control enough for the Swiss to be trying diplomacy so its not some fly by night thing. If America now consists of Hawaii, Alaska, maybe Chicago and parts of the West Coast, and Texas has broken off - then Gilead controls most of the former US.

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

If I recall correctly the show began 3-5 years after the revolution and its been maybe three years in show time since. So America went from America to Gilead in a very short period of time... I'd call it a juggarnaut. I just don't see the show being run by sadists and sociopaths. They're clearly in control enough for the Swiss to be trying diplomacy so its not some fly by night thing. If America now consists of Hawaii, Alaska, maybe Chicago and parts of the West Coast, and Texas has broken off - then Gilead controls most of the former US.

I guess that's my point. A nation-state which has designs on being the dominant power of North America, yet still can't take Chicago after several years, is hard to call a conquering juggernaut.

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I guess that's my point. A nation-state which has designs on being the dominant power of North America, yet still can't take Chicago after several years, is hard to call a conquering juggernaut.

Guerilla war is hard to fight.

I doubt Gilead wants to nuke them, they have enough nuclear waste to clean up as it is.

There is also the economic side of things, poisoning the great lakes won't be good for the east coast either.  Economically they are still trying to establish trade, Lawrence's big push that without that Gilead will die.  Dropping a nuke on the border with Canada, contaminating Canada as well, is just beyond stupid, and could bring reaction from other countries, and not just economic.

So they are fighting with other weapons, and they are stretched thin with soldiers, having killed so many of their citizens already.  

ETA I seriously doubt June is the only defector from this regime, it makes sense that soldiers might be fighting for the USA as well, and considering USA troops had many women soldiers as well?  Gilead probably couldn't catch or make handmaids of all of them, since forces are spread out around the country and the world.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Umbelina

[EllaWycliffe]

I dunno - Chicago, and some hold outs on the West Coast = America destroyed. I mean, these yahoos tore down Lincoln at Lincoln's memorial. It doesn't seem like they lost. I understand your point, but the situation in Chicago seems to be more of a mopping up action. But to each their own, I suppose.

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I dunno - Chicago, and some hold outs on the West Coast = America destroyed. I mean, these yahoos tore down Lincoln at Lincoln's memorial. It doesn't seem like they lost. I understand your point, but the situation in Chicago seems to be more of a mopping up action. But to each their own, I suppose.

That map that we glimpsed earlier in this show showed Texas, most of the south, most of the Canadian border, and most of the west coast in revolt or in the hands of the rebels, along with large swaths of disputed territory bordering them.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I dunno - Chicago, and some hold outs on the West Coast = America destroyed. I mean, these yahoos tore down Lincoln at Lincoln's memorial. It doesn't seem like they lost. I understand your point, but the situation in Chicago seems to be more of a mopping up action. But to each their own, I suppose.

My point is Gilead is brittle, not a conquering juggernaut. It succeeded in toppling the US government, but it's a huge distance away from securely holding power. 

What the show never did (I've not read the novel) is adequately explain how the U.S. became so brittle. That's not harsh criticism; they couldn't count on 10 seasons to tell this story.

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Guerilla war is hard to fight.

I doubt Gilead wants to nuke them, they have enough nuclear waste to clean up as it is.

There is also the economic side of things, poisoning the great lakes won't be good for the east coast either.  Economically they are still trying to establish trade, Lawrence's big push that without that Gilead will die.  Dropping a nuke on the border with Canada, contaminating Canada as well, is just beyond stupid, and could bring reaction from other countries, and not just economic.

So they are fighting with other weapons, and they are stretched thin with soldiers, having killed so many of their citizens already.  

Of course. That"s why having a fearsome military largely due to nuclear weapons is of limited utility.

[Umbelina]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Honestly it was nice to see this because I really don't see why anyone is buying into Gilead after the initial fun of being a misogynistic ass  and anti- gay bigot wears off. If you're a woman, you're totally fucked - at best you're allowed to knit and garden. That's if your arranged husband doesn't get his jollies arranging your rape by his buddies since he can't impregnate you. If you're not young aka able to breed, you become a household slave or maybe an "econowife". If you're 14 and able to breed - you're married to whoever happens to need a wife. If you're divorced/slutty in a prior life/ and still fertile, you're a Handmaid where you're raped forcibly.  If you're a man and gay, you're dead. If you're a man and young and straight, you're conscripted into guarding women you can never touch, until you're maybe chosen to marry and then you take what you get. Even a Commander is constrained - if the wife is infertile, he can NEVER have sex with his wife and can only have sex standing up, against a bed, with his wife watching him fuck a handmaid. A commander might have Jezebel's but if he's caught out, he's screwed. There's no music to speak of - it seems forbidden except when its not, art is forbidden, no books, no tv, no movies, no plays, no forms of entertainment. I mean, were the Commanders so desperate for once a month sex with someone not their wife that spending their lives in misery is worth it? Utterly no one is having any fun here.

That's what happens when you throw away rights with both hands, attack the press, want to bring (your) God back, and to hell with all the other God's heathens believe in, cheer on people attacking protesters, cheer on the abolition of a woman's right to choose, decry feminism, and mock/hate the experts and science, and get all blindly patriotic when terrorists supposedly attack your government, but especially when you put your faith in a relatively few men to create some kind of Utopia.

What they thought they were getting (from Serena's books, speeches, and propaganda) was a world where men were men and brought home the bacon, and protected those frail women-folk.  Also a world where women had babies, and kept house, and didn't emasculate the men by working along side them in jobs, or God Forbid!  becoming their bosses at work.  They thought they were getting a "clean" new world, no pollution, no contaminating water or earth or air with chemical or power plants or coal burning, or a bunch of gasoline hogging cars and trucks around.

They were going back to basics, like the pioneers, with God first, and religion taught in schools, not evil science and anti bible heresy.  Homemade bread and no nasty fashion nonsense either, sensible clothing that showed others exactly who you are.  

Be careful what you ask for.  Once it's all in place?  It's too late.

Unless you fight.

 

[greekmom]

Slow paced episode. Just finished it in Ontario.

I don't get what Lawrence's deal is. First he seems that he wants things back they way they were. Then he wants to bomb Chicago before the cease fire.

Nick as well I can't get my head around. He likes the power but he still loves June (whatever love means in his weird twisted way).

Aunt Lydia of course is just evil and I don't believe she can ever change. She likes the power as much as Lawrence and Nick.

Even if Gilead fell tomorrow the States is gone. 

[chaifan]

Aid workers from Canada going to Chicago during a cease fire makes no sense.  They should have made it Detroit.  That makes much more sense geographically.  But I suppose Chicago is "sexier" than Detroit. 

I can't think of any plausible reason for June to stay in Chicago if Moira can get her out.  Yes, she wants to fight, but she can go to Canada, learn more about the resistance, rest up a bit, supply intel to American forces, and then go back and fight if she really wants to.  Oh, yeah, she could actually learn how to fight while resting up in Canada, too.  It's possible the aid workers are strictly monitored and they can't get anyone out, and I'd buy that.  But if June does something stupid that gets Moira caught in Chicago, I'm going to really really really hate June. 

I don't understand Nick's motivation/loyalty in any of this.  OK, he "cares for" June.  But other than that, where does he fall on Gilead, Mayday, etc.?  Back in season 1 and 2 there was speculation he was part of Mayday, but that didn't pan out.  He doesn't seem to buy into the Gilead philosophy/religion BS, but yet he doesn't seem to be doing anything to help undermine Gilead except for when it comes to June.  Lawrence things Gilead took things waaaaayyyy too far, and I think would love for things to go back to the "old ways", but he's in self preservation mode.  So he'll do what he can to help June and other resistance fighters, up to the point of it costing him his own neck.  But I can't figure out Nick's view on all this.  Also, Nick is dull as watching paint dry. 

Does anyone remember the old MASH episode where Hawkeye was under house (tent) arrest, and Burns was chiding him by stepping in and out of the tent?  Then at the end, it was Burns under house arrest, and Hawkeye was all "I can go in, and out.  In and out.  In. Out. In Out."   I want June to return to Canada just so she can recreate that scene with Fred and Serena. 

ETA:  @greekmom, you and I were typing at the same time and were thinking the same thing about Lawrence and Nick! 

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by chaifan

[Quickbeam]

Those traded red handmaid robes will be an issue later on. 

[Umbelina]

7 minutes ago, Quickbeam said:

Those traded red handmaid robes will be an issue later on. 

You are probably right.

I did think they were warm and might make good blankets though.

[greekmom]

27 minutes ago, chaifan said:

Aid workers from Canada going to Chicago during a cease fire makes no sense.  They should have made it Detroit.  That makes much more sense geographically.  But I suppose Chicago is "sexier" than Detroit. 

I agree about Detroit. Going to Chicago from Toronto is 837 kms crossing via Sarnia. Going via Windsor is 898 kms.  I doubt they would have flown to Chicago with all that heavy fighting. It would have been some on land envoy.  Timing wise it looked like they gave the ok for the cease fire and it happened later that day. Even Nick complained that he wouldn't have enough time to pull back troops to do the bombing before the cease fire. 

I still stand by my comments last weekend in regards to who is benefiting from Gilead. Seriously no one. Not even those in charge. Because if they were benefiting they wouldn't have all those shady side deals happening (as Lawrence had).  BTW - who's seat was lost at the table? I think it was the African American Commander?

[SourK]

tktkt

21 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

OMG, damn this show for leaving it a cliffhanger whether Janine lives or dies!

Yeah, I'm afraid for her, but also it would be kind of funny if June immediately got her killed by proximity after her death aura became a plot point.

11 hours ago, mamadrama said:

As far as Lydia? I think she thinks the women are treated well. The have clothing and food and beds AND get to serve a holy purpose. What more could they want?

I don't think she thinks they're treated well -- I think she thinks treating them badly is okay. My reading on Lydia, based on the back story we got, is that she likes to punish people who don't live in the One True Way that she's forced herself to live. The idea behind the Handmaid re- ecducation program seems to be that these women are bad people who can learn to serve a good purpose, so this is ideal for Lydia, because she gets to sit in judgement of others and vent her aggression on them while feeling like she's doing something virtuous.

Believing that it ultimately benefits the Handmaids to learn the One True Way to live and be forced to live that Way is different from thinking that they're being treated well during the process -- I'm sure she's perfectly aware that they're suffering a lot and sees suffering as part of the point.

6 hours ago, goldilocks said:

Ha, Lawrence... “Would your heart glow, or something?” (to Nick’s telling him he’d know if June was near the border).

This was my favourite part! 😍

24 minutes ago, chaifan said:

I can't think of any plausible reason for June to stay in Chicago if Moira can get her out.  Yes, she wants to fight, but she can go to Canada, learn more about the resistance, rest up a bit, supply intel to American forces, and then go back and fight if she really wants to.  Oh, yeah, she could actually learn how to fight while resting up in Canada, too.  It's possible the aid workers are strictly monitored and they can't get anyone out, and I'd buy that.  But if June does something stupid that gets Moira caught in Chicago, I'm going to really really really hate June. 

100% agree. The next episode needs to June joining the refugees in Canada. If they make up some reason why she has to hang around in Gilead, even though she has a 0% chance of rescuing Hannah right now and everybody else she knows is dead, gone, or a traitor, I will lose my mind.

(Also, imagine Moira just gets hit by a missile because she stepped inside June's death aura).

 

[akr]

4 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I still stand by my comments last weekend in regards to who is benefiting from Gilead. Seriously no one. Not even those in charge. Because if they were benefiting they wouldn't have all those shady side deals happening (as Lawrence had). 

At a certain point, it's not about what you gain from the system, it's what you gain from it not being overthrown and you being tried for crimes against humanity or subjected to the wrath of those you abused. Nobody wants to end up like Mussolini, Ceausescu, or Qaddafi, whether they still believe in the ideology of the regime or not, and at lower ranks you don't want to be on the wrong side of a civil war. It's not that the people at the top benefit, vis a vis where they might have been before the system came into place, so much as that they have a lot to lose when it all falls apart.   

[Ms Blue Jay]

22 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

OMG, damn this show for leaving it a cliffhanger whether Janine lives or dies!

As soon as June and Janine had that moment together I figured this show would kill her off because the show is only concerned with giving June big moments and glory.  I hope I'm wrong, but I know better than to really hope.

[jenn31]

30 minutes ago, SourK said:

(Also, imagine Moira just gets hit by a missile because she stepped inside June's death aura).

June’s death aura. Love it! 

[jenn31]

32 minutes ago, SourK said:

The next episode needs to June joining the refugees in Canada. If they make up some reason why she has to hang around in Gilead, even though she has a 0% chance of rescuing Hannah right now and everybody else she knows is dead, gone, or a traitor, I will lose my mind.

How many bets, if she does get to Canada, she takes over the aid workers. Wonder how quickly she’ll get the majority of them killed. 

[mamadrama]

If June stays in Gilead then I'm out. We've had HOW MANY major plots around getting June out? 

It reminds me of the joke about the guy in the flood who's waiting for God to save him. 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Slow paced episode. Just finished it in Ontario.

I don't get what Lawrence's deal is. First he seems that he wants things back they way they were. Then he wants to bomb Chicago before the cease fire.

Nick as well I can't get my head around. He likes the power but he still loves June (whatever love means in his weird twisted way).

Aunt Lydia of course is just evil and I don't believe she can ever change. She likes the power as much as Lawrence and Nick.

Even if Gilead fell tomorrow the States is gone. 

I'm having real problems with the way that Nick and Lawrence are written. I understand playing both sides to stay alive, but they're not being clear about personal or political motivation.

The episode dragged for me. It took June 3 1/2 minutes to fall, slllooowwwly stand, and look around. By the time she saw Moira I was kind of over it.

My son said that if we were playing the drinking game then we'd have to chug at the end; June's face filled the screen for almost an entire minute.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I don't understand Nick's motivation/loyalty in any of this.  OK, he "cares for" June.  But other than that, where does he fall on Gilead, Mayday, etc.?  Back in season 1 and 2 there was speculation he was part of Mayday, but that didn't pan out.  He doesn't seem to buy into the Gilead philosophy/religion BS, but yet he doesn't seem to be doing anything to help undermine Gilead except for when it comes to June.  Lawrence things Gilead took things waaaaayyyy too far, and I think would love for things to go back to the "old ways", but he's in self preservation mode.  So he'll do what he can to help June and other resistance fighters, up to the point of it costing him his own neck.  But I can't figure out Nick's view on all this.  Also, Nick is dull as watching paint dry. 

I've been saying this about Nick. His character just doesn't make sense to me. In S1 he appeared legitimately surprised that June wasn't happy being a Handmaid. He seems to not really care about the ideology or politics one way or the other, but and it looks like he was dragged into this just by luck/opportunity, yet even in private he seems to not be particularly be bothered by what's going on.

Max Mingella is a hottie, but I have no idea if he's a good actor or not. To supposedly have such a pivotal role on the show, he lacks personality. I have zero stakes in him. I'd rather watch Fred who, though a prick and rapist, at least inspires feelings in me when I watch him. 

[aghst]

Nick was a car driver for Waterford and now he's commanding Gilead's forces all over the continent?

In any event, if he cares about June, why did he let her walk towards that van which was going to take her to a breeding farm or whatever?

Whitford says in the little extras segment that bombing Chicago is ultimately a futile act.  But it sure seemed like Lawrence plotted it.  First they ignore his idea because it was "his" handmaid which got all those children escaped -- like do they not suspect he was complicit or allowed the plans to happen under his roof?

So he gets blackmail info. from Lydia, who was blackmailing him to reinstate her.  Again, I thought Lawrence was lucky not to be on the Wall, let alone still having responsiblities.

But his plan is to make a show of Gilead showing grace and mercy but to bomb the rebels when they come out into the open?  Thing is, rebels could hide out in all those buildings.  It would take enormous manpower to search and clear all those buildings and then make sure the rebels don't go back into them after the Gilead military leave.

On the other hand, military strategists could take out key infrastructure for food, fuel, ammo and make sure the rebels can't get to them.  Still to conquer and control a big city requires thousands of occupying troops -- which is why I was skeptical when the show referred to previous battles like New York and so on.

Lydia is put out to pasture -- surprised she wasn't put on the wall for allowing the Handmaids to escape or letting them get killed.  But she has all this blackmail info. on the commanders.  Which is all the more reason she shouldn't be alive but they must think she's a great character.

June wants to fight, wants action!  Stephen isn't enough of a fighter for her.  She wanted him to kill that stray soldier but there were several other in the same block as the building they were hiding in.  So she's going to find the Nighthawks, who are suppose to be more aggressive.  She goes out in a bright yellow hoodie, in the middle of a street in broad daylight, just one woman, with no weapons.

Janine rejoins her -- guess Stephen wasn't all that -- only to hear the jets coming.

Yeah I must have missed the thing about Moira going to Chicago.  Obviously not a secure area so I don't know why relief workers would be going there, though I guess they trusted Gilead not to attack them.

June should get out, go to Chicago.  But of course she has to be able to come back at some point.  Canadians will probably say we can't guarantee that you will be able to go back to look for Hannah.

 

[SourK]

7 hours ago, akr said:

At a certain point, it's not about what you gain from the system, it's what you gain from it not being overthrown and you being tried for crimes against humanity or subjected to the wrath of those you abused. Nobody wants to end up like Mussolini, Ceausescu, or Qaddafi, whether they still believe in the ideology of the regime or not, and at lower ranks you don't want to be on the wrong side of a civil war. It's not that the people at the top benefit, vis a vis where they might have been before the system came into place, so much as that they have a lot to lose when it all falls apart.   

This is a really good point, and I think it helps explain why a lot of the dudes, including Nick, are committed to this, now. There are some choices you make where you just can't back down. These guys jumped on board with terrorists to overthrow the government and set up a dictatorship -- they need the dictatorship to stand; it's all over for them, if it falls.

My reading of Nick is that he was basically okay jumping on board with the terrorists and doesn't feel super bad about the world they've created, but he's also fond of June, and he wishes there were a way that he could keep her for himself. And, to that end, he's trying to stop her from getting killed, but he's not super into the idea of helping her escape.

[ReganX]

7 hours ago, SourK said:

100% agree. The next episode needs to June joining the refugees in Canada. If they make up some reason why she has to hang around in Gilead, even though she has a 0% chance of rescuing Hannah right now and everybody else she knows is dead, gone, or a traitor, I will lose my mind.

Agreed. June staying in Gilead would be ridiculous. There is no way that she is going to be able to track Hannah down from within Gilead. At least if she is in Canada, she would potentially have access to information about the various Commanders, including Commander McKenzie.

[ReganX]

22 hours ago, mamadrama said:

S1 Aunt Lydia: if a man looks at you or a group gang rapes you then you brought it on yourself, and it's YOUR fault you 'hos!

S4 Aunt Lydia: come, my precious ones, I'm here to save you and protect you from all those things those horrid, evil men might try to do to you!

Aunt Lydia's attitude seems to have evolved, at least to an extent. Instead of tarring all Handmaids with the same brush, she sees some of them as better than others. She described Ofandy as "such a good girl", and thought more highly of her than June. Perhaps her protectiveness towards her "good girls" could lead to more compassionate treatment for all of the Handmaids.

[mamadrama]

12 hours ago, aghst said:

Nick was a car driver for Waterford and now he's commanding Gilead's forces all over the continent?

In any event, if he cares about June, why did he let her walk towards that van which was going to take her to a breeding farm or whatever?

 

Those are problems I have with Nick. My chief complaint is that he seems dissociated with what's going on around him. Why send her off to a breeding camp? Normally I'd say he doesn't have a choice and it's either that or get killed. But then I keep thinking about S1 when June was losing it and Nick was all "what's wrong, why are you unhappy here, why don't you like this?" (Weird on many levels, especially considering he's a small part of the rape ceremony.) Either he's dense and really doesn't get that women are being abused, separated from their families, basically held hostage, and forced into sexual slavery or he's way into Gilead shit more than he lets on. He KNOWS most of this is bullshit. He was there in early meetings when the men were creating the ceremony and laughing about how the wives would love it. He knows this is about power and not so much religion ideology and yet he just seems to go with the flow. A lot of his character choices don't make a lot of sense.

Edited May 13, 2021 by mamadrama

[BodhiGurl]

Moira's GF was heading to "Thunder Bay" Canada in the last episode, Thunder Bay is above the UP of MI, so I guess they got to Chicago from there - but how, who knows... a boat across Lake Superior and down through WI, or over to Lake MI and then to Il/Chicago?

ETA Spoiler tag just in case.

Spoiler

Guess we might get an idea in the next one since the previews show them on a boat. I do think June goes to Canada begrudgingly because of Moira's insistence, plus the season teaser shows her testifying, yelling at Serena, and briefly in an elevator with various peeps including Luke, and she seems to be wearing the same clothes she had on in Chicago.

 

I'm salty we didn't get any idea of whether or not Janine survived in this episode, hopefully we do in the next.

Edited May 13, 2021 by BodhiGurl
spolier tag

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

Those are problems I have with Nick. My chief complaint is that he seems dissociated with what's going on around him. Why send her off to a breeding camp? Normally I'd say he doesn't have a choice and it's either that or get killed. But then I keep thinking about S1 when June was losing it and Nick was all "what's wrong, why are you unhappy here, why don't you like this?" (Weird on many levels, especially considering he's a small part of the rape ceremony.) Either he's dense and really doesn't get that women are being abused, separated from their families, basically held hostage, and forced into sexual slavery or he's way into Gilead shit more than he lets on. He KNOWS most of this is bullshit. He was there in early meetings when the men were creating the ceremony and laughing about how the wives would love it. He knows this is about power and not so much religion ideology and yet he just seems to go with the flow. A lot of his character choices don't make a lot of sense.

Nick is poorly written. When it's convenient, he's just a driver. When his being a lowly driver and maybe an Eye but nothing more is inconvenient, why then he's a highly decorated well known war hero to both sides who did something so awful the Swiss feel soiled by his prescence. Now he's a Commander with a huge amount of power except that he can do nothing but divert June's van for a fun little smooch while Aunt Lydia and a zillion other witnesses see them, But then he's helping turn the screws to get a cease fire in Chicago... Honestly why not just ask for June as his official Wife? This society is all about men doing favors for each other - it could even be couched as a a "reward" for June's service in producing babies - they're already ignoring the various kidnappings.

eta - I really don't need a reminder on how inflexible Gilead is about who gets to be a Wife vs who gets to be a Handmaid. They really aren't that inflexible and we've seen people get special favors in the past

Edited May 13, 2021 by EllaWycliffe

[Bannon]

24 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Nick is poorly written. When it's convenient, he's just a driver. When his being a lowly driver and maybe an Eye but nothing more is inconvenient, why then he's a highly decorated well known war hero to both sides who did something so awful the Swiss feel soiled by his prescence. Now he's a Commander with a huge amount of power except that he can do nothing but divert June's van for a fun little smooch while Aunt Lydia and a zillion other witnesses see them, But then he's helping turn the screws to get a cease fire in Chicago... Honestly why not just ask for June as his official Wife? This society is all about men doing favors for each other - it could even be couched as a a "reward" for June's service in producing babies - they're already ignoring the various kidnappings.

eta - I really don't need a reminder on how inflexible Gilead is about who gets to be a Wife vs who gets to be a Handmaid. They really aren't that inflexible and we've seen people get special favors in the past

Entirely agree. Nick's character is mostly a vehicle for plot advancement, and not a real person whose own experiences and thoughts have something to illuminate for the viewer. It's a shame, b/c it wasn't necessary. He could have been written as a Oskar Schindler type; a mercenary who is surprised to learn he has a conscience. Of course, writing a real person would have foreclosed the ridiculous lightspeed rise from driver to making important strategic decisions. I just think writers so often don't fully trust an audience to take the time to tell the story right, but to be fair, I think it likely that studio executives more frequently force that unfortunate outcome.

 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Nick is poorly written. When it's convenient, he's just a driver. When his being a lowly driver and maybe an Eye but nothing more is inconvenient, why then he's a highly decorated well known war hero to both sides who did something so awful the Swiss feel soiled by his prescence. Now he's a Commander with a huge amount of power except that he can do nothing but divert June's van for a fun little smooch while Aunt Lydia and a zillion other witnesses see them, But then he's helping turn the screws to get a cease fire in Chicago... Honestly why not just ask for June as his official Wife? This society is all about men doing favors for each other - it could even be couched as a a "reward" for June's service in producing babies - they're already ignoring the various kidnappings.

eta - I really don't need a reminder on how inflexible Gilead is about who gets to be a Wife vs who gets to be a Handmaid. They really aren't that inflexible and we've seen people get special favors in the past

I was thinking the same. At this point just make June a wife. It would be great PR for Gilead: Looky here! She's done X,Y, & Z but she wasn't punished! See, we're not the monsters people say we are!  

[EllaWycliffe]

6 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I was thinking the same. At this point just make June a wife. It would be great PR for Gilead: Looky here! She's done X,Y, & Z but she wasn't punished! See, we're not the monsters people say we are!  

It would also hurt June's credibility as a witness. Win/win.

[Bannon]

Just now, EllaWycliffe said:

It would also hurt June's credibility as a witness. Win/win.

I do think this discounts how frequently moronic ideology drives totalitarian regimes into suboptimal decisions. Did it really make sense for Mao to force engineers and doctors into shoveling sh*t during the Cultural Revolution? No, but when you have a stupid belief system about the importance of class consiousness, relative to other values, you take the path of the imbecile. Gilead's idiotic ideology says that the most important things, really the only things, to note about June Osborne is that she is fertile and was an adulterer. Thus the regime misses the chance to do something tactically, perhaps even strategically, optimal.

[Umbelina]

While I completely agree that, for the most part, Nick is not well written and not a compelling character?  For the record, Nick was never just a "driver."  He was, as we know now

1.  instrumental in the mass murders of USA officials and representatives in the capitol, so involved with TPTB from the beginning
2. never just a driver, that was his cover as a spy, an Eye, spying on Fred and Mayday, and others and reporting to the commander that died (in the bomb blast?)
3. that commander told him he was on the fast track to becoming a commander and something like "keep up the good work and it will be sooner than you think"
4. as a new commander, his first assignment in that role is to command the forces in Chicago

I honestly don't remember him asking June why she isn't happy, that's just insane.  I'm not doubting that it happened though.  He is so poorly written, and with a couple of exceptions, I'm usually pretty bored when he's on screen.  I did like his acting during the whole storyline when he was assigned a wife, his first reward, to be followed soon by his promotion.  

Some enigmas are compelling.  Nick is not.

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Umbelina

[Ceindreadh]

20 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I was so moved by that scene, even if it was improbable, things like that can happen, and it was just a joy to see Moira and June together again.

 

I'm not embarrassed to admit that I was sobbing my heart out when I realized that Moira had found June. 

I just hope that (a) June agrees to leave with Moira and (b) that whatever organization that Moira is there with is allowed to bring refugees out of Gilead. 

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

 

I honestly don't remember him asking June why she isn't happy, that's just insane.  I'm not doubting that it happened though.  He is so poorly written, and with a couple of exceptions, I'm usually pretty bored when he's on screen.  I did like his acting during the whole storyline when he was assigned a wife, his first reward, to be followed soon by his promotion.  

Some enigmas are compelling.  Nick is not.

 

It was hard to know whether he was genuinely surprised or trying to minimize the situation. Sometimes it feels like he's just tone deaf. At one point Serena Joy did something to June (I can't remember what) and when June tells Nick he's all "what do you mean she did that, I thought she could be decent." Read the room, Nick. "Decent" people don't hold down women while their husband forcibly rapes them. Or when she's on the run and hanging out in the newspaper building and she wants to take off for Canada. Nick's all "What's going on here, June? Why?" Like, seriously? He has to ask WHY she wants to leave Gilead? He just seems to flip back and forth. 

I can see what they're trying to do with Nick as a character, but I just don't think they're there. Sometimes if I wonder if it even matters to the writers. The men aren't nearly as fleshed out as the women. I'm okay with that in general, but if they ARE trying to give Nick some big romantic role then I need to see substance, not Sybill.

[BeatrixK]

June's only choice is to go to Canada -- at this point, good uterus doesn't save her and she pulled WAY too much shit to be allowed to live:  She serves as a warning way more now than she ever did, AND becomes a 'victory' for Gilead in they got the leader of MayDay.  June gets a very public execution if she doesn't go to Canada.

In Canada...she not only gets to serve as a high profile witness against the Waterfords, but she also can give Canada more intel.  She's got one Choice given where the story needs to go and it's Ohh,,,Caaaannnaaaaadaaaaa.

We didn't actually SEE Jeanine die -- so she's just gonna be super injured come next episode.  They can't let Jeanine die without showing us a really gawdawful death scene.

[Kel Varnsen]

Man bombing Chicago while aid workers are on their way, and just before a ceasefire is about to start seems like a great way to get the rest of the world's militaries on the side against Gilead. Although it is interesting that the remaining US military has apparently given up on Chicago

Also really June you are actually going to our run a jet? They could have at least filmed the scene where they found cover in a basement and it still got bombed.

On 5/12/2021 at 6:56 PM, akr said:

Someone who knows their loved one is committed for the playing cards, treadmill etc., it made me think of the rec room of a mental hospital (at least as they're portrayed on TV/in movies) - there may be things there to keep you occupied, but I'm not sure I'd characterize it as having fun. 

I would have thought that Gilead would have gone full Ned Flanders and outlawed all games of chance. Also did Lydia's treadmill say blessed day or something?

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

I can see what they're trying to do with Nick as a character, but I just don't think they're there. Sometimes if I wonder if it even matters to the writers. The men aren't nearly as fleshed out as the women. I'm okay with that in general, but if they ARE trying to give Nick some big romantic role then I need to see substance, not Sybill.

Well, there definitely is a tone of "all men suck" on this show, which is unfortunate. One significant reason I see Gilead's world building not working is that men don't universally hate women. Do none of these men have sisters or mothers or daughters? Does Nick not have a mom? Or a sister? What about Fred?

A lot of why Nick sometimes comes off like a creepy sociopath is his whole disconnect with June on how she's not happy. Really Nick? You were raised in modern America and you wonder why June doesn't like being raped? You participated various war situations so horrific that you're pretty much black listed, all you can do is blink and stare, and you still can't figure out why women are unhappy? I mean Jesus Christ, Nick. 

[mamadrama]

16 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Well, there definitely is a tone of "all men suck" on this show, which is unfortunate. One significant reason I see Gilead's world building not working is that men don't universally hate women. Do none of these men have sisters or mothers or daughters? Does Nick not have a mom? Or a sister? What about Fred?

A lot of why Nick sometimes comes off like a creepy sociopath is his whole disconnect with June on how she's not happy. Really Nick? You were raised in modern America and you wonder why June doesn't like being raped? You participated various war situations so horrific that you're pretty much black listed, all you can do is blink and stare, and you still can't figure out why women are unhappy? I mean Jesus Christ, Nick. 

Yes! That's what I've been trying to say. I loved it when he acted like what the Waterfords did to her wasn't that bad because sometimes Serena was "decent" and June replies with, "Do YOU get raped every night? Does someone come upstairs and go up YOUR ass?" I rooted for her saying that.

This is the first scene that I've found myself liking Luke. I disliked him in some and was indifferent in others. O-T, however, is awesome.