S04.E04: Milk

[Nicmar]

On 5/5/2021 at 2:35 PM, tennisgurl said:

I swear, with all of the super close up shots of June, I feel like I'm more familiar with Elizabeth Moss's pores than my own. June can shut right the hell up about how she wont let anything happen to Janine, she didn't even look back twice at the other handmaidens who all just died. For as much as everyone goes on about how June is everyone's savior and has all of these amazing plans, she tends to mostly let people around her die while her "clever" plans crumble around her. For someone who is always talked up as being so smart, she really hasn't accomplished very much. Most of her plans rely on other peoples bravery and smarts and the fact that she's the protagonist so she's basically bulletproof, so everyone around her dies because of her plans while she lives to stare into the camera another day. 

I love Janine so I liked seeing some more of her backstory, it was so sad seeing how cute little Caleb was and how good Janine was with him, knowing how little time they have together and that Caleb wont live to see ten. As much as June says how Janine needs her or she wont survive and treats her like a child, Janine has survived a whole hell of a lot thanks to her can do attitude and ability to see the beauty in even the worst things, while most everyone June supposedly "helps" tend to die pretty soon after. Especially if this show had the teeth it tries to have and wasn't afraid of killing major characters, in which case no way would Rita, Nick, Emily, or Mr. Lawrence still be alive after they helped her in her oh so clever plans. 

It made me sad hearing how loyal Alma was to June and was insisting they wait for her. No way would June wait for them. 

I am so glad that Rita decided not to help the Waterfords, I was a bit worried for a second, especially as the show still tries to make us give a shit about Serena sometimes. Amanda Brugel plays her with so much quiet dignity, even when she is kindly telling Fred to fuck himself and that she will most certainly not be helping Serena. Rita getting to eat some sushi was such a nice moment, such a small but important moment of freedom. I hope she can find her sister and nephew. I also kind of want follow up on the Catholic counterfeit identity ring, that sounds pretty awesome. 

Why won't Caleb live to see 10 I don't understand that. Did I miss something in the series?

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Exactly. If this was genuinely about fertility, handmaids wouldn't be wasted on men shooting blanks. Even if religion demanded the insemination be "live" as opposed to artificial, if the point was genuinely to produce children, then fertile male donors would be recruited, and the children would be spread around. We already know that high up families in Gilead are raising children they have no biological connection to so its clearly expected that you take the child you get.

Right? I remember the flashback where a bunch of the Sons of Jacobs were conversing about the ceremony in the back of the car and it was clearly made up so they can have their cake and eat it too and something that the wives would swallow (no pun intended).

I seriously wonder if pre-Gilead world was that bad that they just were not content with whatever little power they did have then, better food, living conditions and tons of opportunities to 'whore' around and really no consequences. I mean no one would lose a hand over getting a blow job like the one commander did.  Serena wouldn't be beaten or lose a finger for reading.  Science must have been working on the whole infertility issue. 

[Zonk]

So they ran along the train tracks? I mean that is quite a bit smarter than running along the street, but it's not what was shown last episode... Also they were still in their red outfits and Gilead has drones. So yeah, I'm calling a big buh humbug on them getting away.

If you compare the milk to before and after opening the valve it's pretty clear that it was standing-height the whole time.

Also how crappy swimmers are you that you almost drown after 2 seconds in a liquid that is quite a bit denser than water?

Btw. I call bullshit on Alma being the one who said they should stay at that farm house. She wasn't that stupid. Don't do my girl dirty after you already murdered her. That just adds insult to injury.

So once again June was too prissy to actually get her hands dirty and somebody else had to suffer in her stead. At least Janine didn't get thrown off a roof, hit by a train, shot or tortured, but rape isn't the nicest fate either...

I do love Rita's journey in this episode. Her leaving Gilead behind at the end being symbolised by japanese food was great. But that is about all of it. Everything else was crap as usual.

[Zonk]

On 5/6/2021 at 4:27 AM, chaifan said:

Also, why are there skylights in a milk tank?  Plastic milk jugs are purposely opaque to help preserve the milk. 

I'm actually 99% sure that those weren't just windows but openings. Which would never be the case in a milk tanker, on account of the milk going bad and being contaminated. That was clearly a tanker meant for other liquids they filled that water with white coloring... oh I'm sorry, "milk"... in.

  

17 hours ago, Black Knight said:

In the first season it was revealed that whatever Gilead claimed about it being the Wives' fault, it was known that it was generally the men who were infertile, hence the "arrangements" that would be made with male doctors, men like Nick, and so on.  I don't remember, has there ever been a paternity test done on Nichole? Or has it just continued to be assumed that Nick is the father because Fred wasn't supposed to be able to get women pregnant?

A doctor who tried that line to get into Junes pants is really not a reliable source, so nothing of that nature was "revealed".

If the men were the main problem, Mexico wouldn't have infertility problems. They could impregnate a 100 women with one fertile man's sperm. Yet their problem seems to be even bigger than that of Gilead.

So we have to conclude it's either the women or at least men and women equally, who are the problem.

17 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I feel like they're setting up Aunt Lydia for some kind of redemption arc, or at least that she's playing both sides. I hope not. She and Serena both need to be punished.

I don't think so. They keep hinting at it, but then she turns around and is extra cruel, just to shock the viewer even more. Often even out of character, so. Just look at her being perfectly fine with harming a child last episode.

14 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Interesting that no country has come to the US’s defense. None. If this happened in another country, the US would likely have intervened.

Sure, if it had oil...

Edited May 7, 2021 by Zonk

[LBS]

2 hours ago, Nicmar said:

Why won't Caleb live to see 10 I don't understand that. Did I miss something in the series?

In last season June found out that he died in a car or bike accident (I forgot which one).  She told Janie that he was still alive and happy in California.

[ZenMoonPi]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:26 AM, AntFTW said:

I thought Rita was gonna fall for the trap. I always wished she would have not called them "ma'am" and "sir."

Maybe he did it to drive home that they were not friends.

[ZenMoonPi]

On 5/5/2021 at 12:01 PM, EllaWycliffe said:

At the same time, I really don't think Jeanine would have sacrificed baby Angela... I mean, June has a big streak of cold bitch running down her back but threatening the kid is always going to work. 

Remember this is someone who demanded Luke leave his wife or her. She's always been a cold bitch who wants what she wants.

[EllaWycliffe]

1 minute ago, ZenMoonPi said:

Remember this is someone who demanded Luke leave his wife or her. She's always been a cold bitch who wants what she wants.

Sorry, can't put that entirely on June. Maybe Luke should have been a real man and not a two timing cheater of his wife fucking June on the side and happy to stay married with a girlfriend.  Did she know Luke was married, yes. So who was constrained morally by actual marital vows? If Luke didn't want the cold bitch, he could have kept the dick in his pants for his wife. 

3 hours ago, Zonk said:

So once again June was too prissy to actually get her hands dirty and somebody else had to suffer in her stead. At least Janine didn't get thrown off a roof, hit by a train, shot or tortured, but rape isn't the nicest fate either...

Another sorry, not calling a woman "prissy" for balking at a forced blowjob for food. I actually thought June trying to spare Jeanine was pretty admirable and unselfish, and she was clearly shamed by her own weakness in not being able to complete a forced sex act.  I also felt terrible for Jeanine that she was in a place where she had to suck a man's dick for food and shelter and pitied her for having a life where that wasn't that big of a deal for her. 

[Zonk]

Just now, EllaWycliffe said:

Another sorry, not calling a woman "prissy" for balking at a forced blowjob for food.

I'm calling the "big freedom fighter" prissy for not doing what needs to be done, getting other women and men killed so that she may live out her hero fantasies another day and now getting another woman sexually assaulted, because she can't put her money where her mouth is.

She wants to be the big freedom fighter and she is the reason Janine is there in the first place, when the smart move would have been to try to get to Canada a long time ago.

From me a big SORRY that I stopped feeling bad for her a few seasons ago, when she is getting everybody around her tortured, maimed, sexually assaulted and ultimately killed. As much as I despise that woman, I'm beginning to think aunt Lydia is right. All Junes fault.

[Cinnabon]

18 minutes ago, ZenMoonPi said:

Remember this is someone who demanded Luke leave his wife or her. She's always been a cold bitch who wants what she wants.

I don’t really blame her for that. He needed to make a decision 🤷‍♀️

[Umbelina]

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Do we know that the stockpiles are "huge"? Show World weapons may differ from Real World weapons. We know rebels are still fighting in various parts of the country. If the US has enough to take on the European Union or Russia then why haven't they been able to knock out the rebel fighting? 

It's the USA, and the USA has the most money in weapons and defense in the entire world, many times over.

That doesn't mean Gilead wants to kill the remaining citizens they could have.  Enslaving them is more what they have in mind, women and children are mixed in with the male fighters.  Of course Gilead only considers the MEN the fighters.  I would assume there are just as many female soldiers as men in what's left of the USA.  It's just not what the guys in Gilead want to admit, that woman can be useful for more the cooking, cleaning, sex, and baby making.

8 hours ago, mamadrama said:

The Handmaid thing is theoretically about kids, but in reality is about power and control. 

If it were truly about infertility and population increase then there are at least a dozen things that they could be doing differently to ensure live births. There are better ways than sexual servitude. 

The reality IS that the rules they've made for women are about power and control.  However there is a very real shortage of children, they are dying out.

They killed all the scientists.  Scientists and doctors and professors were among the first on the wall.

The CIA guy was telling Serena the same thing remember?  That if she escaped their doctors in the USA and other places have been working on the fertility issues with some positive results. 

Gilead has none of that.  They don't want it.  They believe science is what ruined everything, which is why they are back to nature and back to faith in God to solve issues.

7 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Exactly. If this was genuinely about fertility, handmaids wouldn't be wasted on men shooting blanks. Even if religion demanded the insemination be "live" as opposed to artificial, if the point was genuinely to produce children, then fertile male donors would be recruited, and the children would be spread around. We already know that high up families in Gilead are raising children they have no biological connection to so its clearly expected that you take the child you get.

I pretty much addressed this in my answer above.

We saw one super commander who had lots of kids, presumably most were stolen, he also seemed to have more than one handmaid with her lips sewn shut.  

They don't have science or the ability to test for fertility or artificially inseminate or grow eggs, swirl sperm, whatever.  They are all dead and the facilities destroyed.  

Men in Gilead will not admit to fertility issues, it's just the women's fault in their view.

6 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

On a side note one somewhat shallow thing about the Janine flashback is I never noticed how attractive Madeline Brewer is before. I have only seen her in this and Orange is the New Black, and it really showed how bad the handmaid uniforms make women look.

She really is so pretty!  It was fun to see her!

4 hours ago, greekmom said:

Right? I remember the flashback where a bunch of the Sons of Jacobs were conversing about the ceremony in the back of the car and it was clearly made up so they can have their cake and eat it too and something that the wives would swallow (no pun intended).

I seriously wonder if pre-Gilead world was that bad that they just were not content with whatever little power they did have then, better food, living conditions and tons of opportunities to 'whore' around and really no consequences. I mean no one would lose a hand over getting a blow job like the one commander did.  Serena wouldn't be beaten or lose a finger for reading.  Science must have been working on the whole infertility issue. 

Scientists are dead in Gilead.  All of them.  

In other parts of the world with this issue (which is quite real) scientists continue to work on it, Gilead rejects all of that.  God and faithful living and subdued women used for their only purpose, having children will eventually right things.

The ceremony being designed was exactly what you say though, finding a way to make their wives accept a horrific thing, raping women who have had children or been pregnant regularly while their wives participate.  Now how much "fun" that is for men is debatable, but it might get them children and prove their fertility (another big deal for them) but they always have a Jezebel's for real fun.

[EllaWycliffe]

Again, not judging June the freedom fighter for balking at a blow job. I have no problem disliking her and I certainly can see why she's seen as selfish (and stupid, frankly she should have gone with Emily and campaigned for Hannah's release from Canada) but maybe the actual freedom fighter shouldn't have been unzipping his pants for oral relief. Blow jobs for food is a form of rape and I am not on the "she deserved rape for her various boneheaded actions". I'm just not.

[EllaWycliffe]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Scientists are dead in Gilead.  All of them.  

Doctors are scientists and we've seen multiple male doctors on the show doing highly scientific things like saving OfMatthew's life for months. It's never been stated that all scientists are dead. Certainly a lot of them were killed, but much like the whole "women NEVER read... except Aunts because society has to function" - there are scientists functioning in Gilead. You can't maintain a military without them and you can't do environmental work without them. 

[greekmom]

16 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Scientists are dead in Gilead.  All of them.  

In other parts of the world with this issue (which is quite real) scientists continue to work on it, Gilead rejects all of that.  God and faithful living and subdued women used for their only purpose, having children will eventually right things.

The ceremony being designed was exactly what you say though, finding a way to make their wives accept a horrific thing, raping women who have had children or been pregnant regularly while their wives participate.  Now how much "fun" that is for men is debatable, but it might get them children and prove their fertility (another big deal for them) but they always have a Jezebel's for real fun.

I think you missed my point. I was saying how bad was life in pre-Gilead that they (SOJ) decided that wrestling power out of the USA and set up their own country (which pretty much sucks for everyone - even the ones in power. Let's be honest) and keep having skirmishes with the remaining US states? If I can make a comparison, would you rather have a beautiful crystal glass with a half full of whiskey or a cracked crystal glass that's full to the brim of waterdowned whiskey?  

22 minutes ago, Zonk said:

I'm calling the "big freedom fighter" prissy for not doing what needs to be done, getting other women and men killed so that she may live out her hero fantasies another day and now getting another woman sexually assaulted, because she can't put her money where her mouth is.

She wants to be the big freedom fighter and she is the reason Janine is there in the first place, when the smart move would have been to try to get to Canada a long time ago.

From me a big SORRY that I stopped feeling bad for her a few seasons ago, when she is getting everybody around her tortured, maimed, sexually assaulted and ultimately killed. As much as I despise that woman, I'm beginning to think aunt Lydia is right. All Junes fault.

I know June is a sucky person but alot of famous freedom fighters were deeply flawed people.  Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Martin King Jr to name a few. Geez even Mother Theresa is rumored to have  suffered from a form of Munchausen by Proxy. Plus, June probably didn't want to become a freedom fighter. Her goal was to get herself (and Hannah) out of Gilead (which she's failed sooo badly at!) The whole freedom fighter thing has been thrusted upon her. 

Edited May 7, 2021 by greekmom

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

23 minutes ago, ZenMoonPi said:

Remember this is someone who demanded Luke leave his wife or her. She's always been a cold bitch who wants what she wants.

I don’t really blame her for that. He needed to make a decision 🤷‍♀️

I blame them both, but Luke a bit more.  He was the one who took the vows.  I understand love sweeping other people away, it's happened, it's powerful.  Still, Luke took the vows, and he should have found a way to be kinder to his wife, even though he was leaving her.

16 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Sorry, can't put that entirely on June. Maybe Luke should have been a real man and not a two timing cheater of his wife fucking June on the side and happy to stay married with a girlfriend.  Did she know Luke was married, yes. So who was constrained morally by actual marital vows? If Luke didn't want the cold bitch, he could have kept the dick in his pants for his wife. 

Another sorry, not calling a woman "prissy" for balking at a forced blowjob for food. I actually thought June trying to spare Jeanine was pretty admirable and unselfish, and she was clearly shamed by her own weakness in not being able to complete a forced sex act.  I also felt terrible for Jeanine that she was in a place where she had to suck a man's dick for food and shelter and pitied her for having a life where that wasn't that big of a deal for her. 

Applause!

Why should June have submitted?  Because she's used to being raped?  So why not just be raped once more?  Used for sex, dehumanized just when she's finally escaped a living hell?  

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Again, not judging June the freedom fighter for balking at a blow job. I have no problem disliking her and I certainly can see why she's seen as selfish (and stupid, frankly she should have gone with Emily and campaigned for Hannah's release from Canada) but maybe the actual freedom fighter shouldn't have been unzipping his pants for oral relief. Blow jobs for food is a form of rape and I am not on the "she deserved rape for her various boneheaded actions". I'm just not.

I don't dislike June.  She's flawed, like all of us are flawed, but she's trying, and she has had amazing success, getting 86 kids and 9 handmaids out of Gilead is something no one else has been able to accomplish.  She personally took several risks to make that happen, from the Jezebel's trip, to leading Gilead soldiers away from the plane so it could take off.  Without her, none of that would have happened.  She's not perfect, but she's not giving up either.

If Hannah could be rescued from Canada, Luke would have done it.  June would have had no chance if she left Gilead.  She had connections with information there, and an Eye sort of on her side, and was connected with the Mayday people there.  It was both brave and stupid to stay.  Stupid, if all she cared about was her own survival, but she cares about more than that.  She wants an end to Gilead, more children and handmaids, and Martha's finally free from that.

3 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Doctors are scientists and we've seen multiple male doctors on the show doing highly scientific things like saving OfMatthew's life for months. It's never been stated that all scientists are dead. Certainly a lot of them were killed, but much like the whole "women NEVER read... except Aunts because society has to function" - there are scientists functioning in Gilead. You can't maintain a military without them and you can't do environmental work without them. 

Yeah, it has.

They saved a few doctors for obvious reasons, but not fertility doctors.  Most scientists were killed in the first wave.  I'm not saying they killed every single one, I am sure they saved those who had God-based science ideas, and probably the military scientists to keep tanks and drones running.  A few.  Not most.  Not many.  They did kill all the professors at Universities remember?  

The "environmental work" they are doing is throwing people into nuclear waste areas and having them dig until they die in a few months.  Then throwing more people in.  If a scientist designed that, then fuck him, but it's certainly possible, we've seen worse in WWII.

They hate nuclear power plants, and killed everyone involved in creating those, but that does make me wonder how they actually feel about nuclear bombs, or if those were disabled first, then the scientists involved hung on the wall?  OR, did they keep the bombs for possible defense?  No idea.

[Umbelina]

16 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I think you missed my point. I was saying how bad was life in pre-Gilead that they (SOJ) decided that wrestling power out of the USA and set up their own country (which pretty much sucks for everyone - even the ones in power. Let's be honest) and keep having skirmishes with the remaining US states? If I can make a comparison, would you rather have a beautiful crystal glass with a half full of whiskey or a cracked crystal glass that's full to the brim of waterdowned whiskey?  

Those who seized power still have it pretty good, except for the woman that helped them make it a reality, Serena Joy, the very famous author and speaker who convinced many that scientists were bad, and women were made to keep house and have babies, not have careers, and casual sex, and abortions.  Serena is the one who brought GOD into everything.  

The Sons of Jacob just capitalized on that, and adopted much of her bullshit into their new society, again to kind of placate many of her very large group of fans.  

Then of course, after it all happened, and they killed everyone in leadership positions of the US government, they went much further.  No reading for women!  Torture camps.  Mass murder.  Serena, go be a wife, we don't need you anymore.

They have their fancy mansions, their booze, the rich men are waited on hand and foot by a group of women, and of course, they have Jezebel's for fun.  They have power, lots of it, and they love it.  No uppity woman can even talk back to them without the risk of pain or death.

ETA

They also created the Econoclass of people.  Basically their version of middle class.  Soldiers to go off and fight endless wars, or be police, or fix trucks, with their wives to have babies to help populated a decimated USA/Gilead.

16 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I know June is a sucky person but alot of famous freedom fighters were deeply flawed people.  Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, Martin King Jr to name a few. Geez even Mother Theresa is rumored to have  suffered from a form of Munchausen by Proxy. Plus, she didn't want to become a freedom fighter. Her goal was to get herself (and Hannah) out of Gilead. The whole freedom fighter thing has been thrusted upon her. 

Fighting against tyranny is rarely pretty, or easy, or even on a moral high ground.  

Her goal about only getting Hannah out dissolved when even Lawrence couldn't locate her anymore, but the goal to "get them all out" solidified when she was forced to be on her knees by that snitch handmaid's bedside for months, and she began to go a bit crazy.  They kept the handmaid alive because she was pregnant, when the fetus was old enough, they cut it out of her, left her to bleed to death.  June went back into the room, her previous hate for her ebbing, even though she was the reason Hannah was now out of reach.  She realized she was just a pawn, a baby maker, like all of them, and eventually realized it wasn't about saving ONE kid, that all of them mattered, the kids, the handmaids, the Martha's.  She, exhausted, finally saw a new goal clearly.  Saving as many as possible, and then ending Gilead completely.  She knew she would probably die trying, but she couldn't play their games anymore.  Death was better, so why not try?

By then she knew quite a bit, her experiences with Mayday through the years, her new relationship with the Martha's in Mayday and Boston, her relationship with Lawrence, and with Nick, even Fred dragging her to Jezebel's all helped her to realize they could try.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Umbelina

[Zonk]

15 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Her goal was to get herself (and Hannah) out of Gilead (which she's failed sooo badly at!) The whole freedom fighter thing has been thrusted upon her. 

That hasn't been her goal for the last season and this one. She has drunk her own coolaid and now thinks that she is a super awsome freedom fighter and I'm judging her accordingly.

Instead of trying to get her mentally ill friend to safety in Canada, she insisted, that they had to join up with some illusive freedom fighter organisation in the western united states and then, I'll say it again, got her mentally ill friend raped because she, the big, strong, independant freedom fighter, who is going to take down the whole bad regime, was too prissy to do what needed to be done.

I wouldn't be so harsh on June if Janine was in full possession of her faculties. But she's not. Her safety should be Junes first concern, especially after she just got four other handmaids killed, because she was too prissy to just hit that war criminal aunt Lydia over the head with a metal rod. Freedom fighter, my ass.

[Cinnabon]

49 minutes ago, Zonk said:

That hasn't been her goal for the last season and this one. She has drunk her own coolaid and now thinks that she is a super awsome freedom fighter and I'm judging her accordingly.

Instead of trying to get her mentally ill friend to safety in Canada, she insisted, that they had to join up with some illusive freedom fighter organisation in the western united states and then, I'll say it again, got her mentally ill friend raped because she, the big, strong, independant freedom fighter, who is going to take down the whole bad regime, was too prissy to do what needed to be done.

I wouldn't be so harsh on June if Janine was in full possession of her faculties. But she's not. Her safety should be Junes first concern, especially after she just got four other handmaids killed, because she was too prissy to just hit that war criminal aunt Lydia over the head with a metal rod. Freedom fighter, my ass.

Why should she have submitted to getting raped, yet again?

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Why should she have submitted to getting raped, yet again?

Exactly.

Also, why should that asshole even demand it?  

June was willing to keep walking, she can see Chicago in the distance, but that prick wasn't even going to give them a change of clothes, rags really, to wear, instead of the "designed to be seen and prevent escape" bright red clothing.

Also, why didn't that woman with the gun stop that shit?  

 

[Umbelina]

Back to Rita.

At first I really wanted her to rage at Serena and Fred, to slap them down for enslaving her all these years, and having the audacity to call her their friend.

In the end though, her quiet dignity, her faith, her kindness, her very nature prevented her from stooping to that kind of level.  It made her final words much more powerful.

I would have enjoyed some rage though.  I think it was a brilliant choice to have her still, after years of being their slave, still automatically call them Ma'am and Sir, even though it grated on me, I get it, and it was a smart writing and directing choice.

Still, I hope sooner or later, someone slaps Serena.

[EllaWycliffe]

51 minutes ago, Zonk said:

I'll say it again, got her mentally ill friend raped because she, the big, strong, independant freedom fighter, who is going to take down the whole bad regime, was too prissy to do what needed to be done.

Jeanine's mental illness reminds me of Sister Monica Joan's dementia on Call the Midwife. When it's going to make things awkward and difficult in whatever the situation is - Jeanine is a crazy flake. When its convenient to the story for Jeanine to  not be a crazy nutjob, she's a real trooper. 

That Jeanine was willing to blow someone for food, and that June couldn't do it, is one of those "its awful and sad for everyone" and not a point where I applaud Jeanine and chastise June for being too prissy.

12 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Why should she have submitted to getting raped, yet again?

She shouldn't but because she's a woman and her clothing defines her as a whore and whores deserve what they get.  Why is this male piece of shit demanding sex? Because he's in a position of power and can make her suck his cock for food. He's armed, she isn't, who wins?

12 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Also, why didn't that woman with the gun stop that shit?  

Because she'd be next if she did. Depending on the nature of the leader, he might even kill her if she interfered. 

 

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, EllaWycliffe said:

That Jeanine was willing to blow someone for food, and that June couldn't do it, is one of those "its awful and sad for everyone" and not a point where I applaud Jeanine and chastise June for being too prissy.

Good point, I also don't think Janine is as 'out' of Gilead now as June.  She lost an eye, but generally, she hasn't recently been through as much stress or torture as June, killing that asshole in Jezebel's, keeping the Mayday group and kids in on the plan, the torture to reveal the handmaid's locations, seeing the Martha's murdered, seeing her child again.  June's OUT, she's DONE (or thinks she is) while Janine has mostly been in "rah rah" along for the ride mode.

It worries me though that Janine said "He likes my eyepatch."  I hope she didn't fall for that guy.  When men are at all kind to Janine, she seems to have romantic ideas pop up like a whack a mole game.

[akr]

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was so afraid Rita was softening when she learned that Serena is pregnant.  So glad she didn't fall for Serena's manipulation.  (I think she was starting to until Serena called her a friend.  That brought Rita back to reality instantly.)

I think what really got her was Serena's assumption that she would be helping her raise the child! She may have some complicated mixed emotions about Serena, and been genuinely happy for her and/or about the prospect of new life, but Serena acted as if she were still a subservient household slave, and had always been content in that role. I thought was similar to Fred assuming that they were on good terms because he'd "never been cruel to her."  (a), define cruel, and (b), not good enough.   

[Zonk]

37 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Why should she have submitted to getting raped, yet again?

Obviously she shouldn't in a perfect world, but in a world where is basically no other option and she is styling herself to be that big badass? Why not her? Why Janine? Why do other people always have to suffer for her decisions? She can get others killed by the boatload, she can have others kill for her without batting an eye (remember the woman forced into prostitution from two episodes ago who got almost certainly killed in retribution?), but once she needs to get her hands dirty, she chickens out. Doing in a woman, who trained and tortured countless women and girls to get raped, was too much for her and sucking a dick so her mentally ill friend didn't have to is too much for her, too. Yet we are supposed to see her as that great heroine and it's pretty clear she thinks of herself that way, too.

I don't think anybody acknowledged it, so I'll say it a little clearer: The only reason they are both even there, with that rapist rebel, is because June just had to hitch a train to rebel country. Janine wanted to get back to Boston, hook back up with the resistance there. People they knew. People who wouldn't rape them. Maybe another option would have been to hitch a train that went close to the canadian border. But no, June just had to go play hero, yet again and yet again somebody else had to suffer for it.

[EllaWycliffe]

9 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Why not her? Why Janine?

She didn't ask Jeanine to do that. She told Jeanine, after refusing, that they had to go. Jeanine made the call to do it so they could stay. June wasn't intending to stay and didn't ask Jeanine to do it.

I want to clarify - I do like June, I just understand why people don't and some of it is that she's often held up while others are sacrificed. This isn't a case where June didn't want to do it and then told Jeanine to suck it up, literally and figuratively. She was planning on leaving when Jeanine came by with the bread.

[EllaWycliffe]

20 minutes ago, Zonk said:

The only reason they are both even there, with that rapist rebel, is because June just had to hitch a train to rebel country. Janine wanted to get back to Boston, hook back up with the resistance there. People they knew. People who wouldn't rape them. Maybe another option would have been to hitch a train that went close to the canadian border. But no, June just had to go play hero, yet again and yet again somebody else had to suffer for it.

Not really a realistic argument. Who does Jeanine know in Boston who is in the resistance? That didn't fly to Canada or get burned in the aftermath? They're in Pennsylvania so traveling back to where they are known and wanted criminals and are being actively searched for seems like as much of a death and rape sentence as going to Chicago. The Canadian border from where they are is equally far away. Chicago's only plus is that it IS a chaotic warzone that two women could probably hide in while Boston is pretty locked down with Gilead in full control. 

If Jeanine was arguing for the Texas republic, at least that would be safer, but a return to Boston guarantees they get caught. 

[Umbelina]

41 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Janine wanted to get back to Boston, hook back up with the resistance there. People they knew. People who wouldn't rape them.

What resistance they know of is now in Canada, or dead.

What are you saying "back with people who wouldn't rape them?"  Back to being a handmaid, face torture, endure that, and then be handed over to yet another commander who WILL rape her?

41 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Maybe another option would have been to hitch a train that went close to the canadian border.

Chicago IS closer to the Canadian border, and with many more rebels/Mayday people who have a much better chance of getting Janine to Canada.  June has no wish to escape to Canada, she intends to fight for her country and all the oppressed people still enslaved there.

 

14 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

If Jeanine was arguing for the Texas republic, at least that would be safer, but a return to Boston guarantees they get caught. 

Yes, and Texas and California would be pretty impossible to reach, look how much peril they've been in even trying to get to Chicago.

14 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Not really a realistic argument. Who does Jeanine know in Boston who is in the resistance? That didn't fly to Canada or get burned in the aftermath? They're in Pennsylvania so traveling back to where they are known and wanted criminals and are being actively searched for seems like as much of a death and rape sentence as going to Chicago. The Canadian border from where they are is equally far away. Chicago's only plus is that it IS a chaotic warzone that two women could probably hide in while Boston is pretty locked down with Gilead in full control. 

Exactly.  You posted while I was still typing.  Well said.

41 minutes ago, Zonk said:

June just had to go play hero, yet again and yet again somebody else had to suffer for it.

June isn't playing hero.  She IS a hero.  She's suffered for it as well, many times.  She just thought up, and carried out the biggest rescue Gilead has ever seen.  She could have gone, but she drew fire and led the soldiers away from the plane, willing and expecting to die for others.  If that's not heroic, then I don't know what is.

ETA

Quote

I don't think anybody acknowledged it, so I'll say it a little clearer: The only reason they are both even there, with that rapist rebel, is because June just had to hitch a train to rebel country.

He's not a rebel, he's just hiding out from Gilead and stealing from them when he can.  A rebel or "mayday" as used by the show are people fighting for the USA against the bastards that stole their country, and made it a living hell.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

52 minutes ago, akr said:

I think what really got her was Serena's assumption that she would be helping her raise the child! She may have some complicated mixed emotions about Serena, and been genuinely happy for her and/or about the prospect of new life, but Serena acted as if she were still a subservient household slave, and had always been content in that role. I thought was similar to Fred assuming that they were on good terms because he'd "never been cruel to her."  (a), define cruel, and (b), not good enough.   

Yeah, exactly.

You can still be my maid and cook and babysitter, only I guess in Canada, I'll have to pay you to do that.  Will you still wear the same outfit though?  After all uniforms are important and that one is so modest and will reflect our Gilead sensibilities, the good ones you know?  The Godly ones...

[mamadrama]

9 hours ago, Nicmar said:

Why won't Caleb live to see 10 I don't understand that. Did I miss something in the series?

When June was at Lawrence's she found some records of the kids and Handmaids. One mentioned Caleb's death, but I can't remember if it gave a cause. 

[mamadrama]

2 hours ago, Zonk said:

Obviously she shouldn't in a perfect world, but in a world where is basically no other option and she is styling herself to be that big badass? Why not her? Why Janine? Why do other people always have to suffer for her decisions? She can get others killed by the boatload, she can have others kill for her without batting an eye (remember the woman forced into prostitution from two episodes ago who got almost certainly killed in retribution?), but once she needs to get her hands dirty, she chickens out. Doing in a woman, who trained and tortured countless women and girls to get raped, was too much for her and sucking a dick so her mentally ill friend didn't have to is too much for her, too. Yet we are supposed to see her as that great heroine and it's pretty clear she thinks of herself that way, too.

I don't see June as a heroine either. I think the word "hero" gets thrown around a lot. Many of the things that she gets applauded for are things that wouldn't have been possible without the help of others. ie, she may have organized the Child Exodus but it never could've happened without the help of the other Handmaids, Marthas, and Commander Lawrence. 

As the series goes on I keep thinking of June as an anti-hero. What I CAN accept is that June is a normal person who regularly gets into abnormal situations and reacts in ways that often benefits the people we're rooting for. 

[EllaWycliffe]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

He's not a rebel, he's just hiding out from Gilead and stealing from them when he can.  A rebel or "mayday" as used by the show are people fighting for the USA against the bastards that stole their country, and made it a living hell.

In fairness we really don't know that he's not a rebel. He could be a rebel and also an asshole rapist and simply running his own separate rebel group that isn't linked to Mayday.  Resistance movements don't always join each other and adhere to one philosophy. 

The Chicago Resistance may have links to the Mayday movement inside Gilead proper, but there could easily be dozens of resistance group who aren't clued in to that link and simply do harassing attacks to stymie the enemy. We simply haven't seen enough to know.

[mamadrama]

10 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

In fairness we really don't know that he's not a rebel. He could be a rebel and also an asshole rapist and simply running his own separate rebel group that isn't linked to Mayday.  Resistance movements don't always join each other and adhere to one philosophy. 

The Chicago Resistance may have links to the Mayday movement inside Gilead proper, but there could easily be dozens of resistance group who aren't clued in to that link and simply do harassing attacks to stymie the enemy. We simply haven't seen enough to know.

And even resistance movements can have assholes and rapists. Being anti-Gilead doesn't automatically make a person good. 

That's kind of the scary thing-not being able to fully trust anyone, not even the "good guys."

[Umbelina]

41 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I don't see June as a heroine either. I think the word "hero" gets thrown around a lot. Many of the things that she gets applauded for are things that wouldn't have been possible without the help of others. ie, she may have organized the Child Exodus but it never could've happened without the help of the other Handmaids, Marthas, and Commander Lawrence. 

A hero to me is someone willing to give their lives, and who risks their lives to save others.  So yes, ALL of them were heroes here.

June went an extra step and drew bullets and soldiers away so the plane could take off, making her even more of a hero.  The handmaid's followed her, making each and everyone of them even more of a hero as well, risking their lives to save another.

51 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

When June was at Lawrence's she found some records of the kids and Handmaids. One mentioned Caleb's death, but I can't remember if it gave a cause. 

It's been mentioned in this thread a few times, but yes, June found out poor Caleb was killed in a car accident.

This was right before the huge escape was being planned, so she lied to the unstable Janine and told her that her son was with great parents and they lived in California now.  Janine went on to fantasize about Caleb playing on the beach and having a tan and a good life.  It calmed her.

Janine was supposed to be on the plane to Canada as well, but when she and the other handmaids saw June run the other way, to distract the soldiers from attacking the plane, unknown to June, they all followed her.  They ended up rescuing her and carrying her to help.

40 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

In fairness we really don't know that he's not a rebel. He could be a rebel and also an asshole rapist and simply running his own separate rebel group that isn't linked to Mayday.  Resistance movements don't always join each other and adhere to one philosophy. 

The Chicago Resistance may have links to the Mayday movement inside Gilead proper, but there could easily be dozens of resistance group who aren't clued in to that link and simply do harassing attacks to stymie the enemy. We simply haven't seen enough to know.

He didn't know what Mayday was.  He kind of laughed at resistance, and pretty much said that he's just there with that group surviving by whatever means possible, including stealing.  He was in no way trying to overthrow Gilead.

27 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

And even resistance movements can have assholes and rapists. Being anti-Gilead doesn't automatically make a person good. 

That's kind of the scary thing-not being able to fully trust anyone, not even the "good guys."

True, very true.

Still from what we've heard on the show, there have been regular military defectors as well as Mayday resistance fighters in Chicago and other places.  Hopefully, since they are fighting Gilead, they don't believe women are "less than" men, or only around or useful for raping.

[mamadrama]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

A hero to me is someone willing to give June went an extra step and drew bullets and soldiers away so the plane could take off, making her even more of a hero.  The handmaid's followed her, making each and everyone of them even more of a hero as well, risking their lives to save another.

 

Yes, I watched the episode and remember it well.

It's highly possible for different people to watch the same thing and walk away with different reactions and conclusions. It doesn't make one person right over the other; the great thing about art is that it's often open to interpretation. If we all agreed on everything then this would just be an echo chamber. 😊

[EllaWycliffe]

10 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He didn't know what Mayday was.  He kind of laughed at resistance, and pretty much said that he's just there with that group surviving by whatever means possible, including stealing.  He was in no way trying to overthrow Gilead.

Not knowing what Mayday is doesn't mean anything. He may simply be a low level operator. Most resistance groups do exactly what he is doing, scraping by and stealing from the oppressors.

Point - you can very well be right, I am not so attached to my theory that I won't say I can't be wrong. At the same time, I'm going to need to see more that we saw before I give you the tip of the hat on this.

Edited May 8, 2021 by EllaWycliffe

[Umbelina]

59 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Not knowing what Mayday is doesn't mean anything. He may simply be a low level operator. Most resistance groups do exactly what he is doing, scraping by and stealing from the oppressors.

Point - you can very well be right, I am not s😉o attached to my theory that I won't say I can't be wrong. At the same time, I'm going to need to see more that we saw before I give you the tip of the hat on this.

I just can't picture someone from Mayday insisting on a blow job, or not understanding what women are forced to do in Gilead.

I mean, I'm sure some of those fighters have never been under Gilead control at all, or had their wives and children stolen from them, but I'd think they have to know what is happening.  

You could be correct as well, but I hope not.  I don't expect of the rebels to be angels, but I am seriously hoping those rebelling against Gilead taking over the USA have at least a bit less misogyny than Gilead.  Or at least get called on it and apologize.

I don't think Steven is a freedom fighter, other than fighting for his own.  Although, he could be recruited I suppose.  Janine's little crush on him bugs me.

[EllaWycliffe]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

I just can't picture someone from Mayday insisting on a blow job, or not understanding what women are forced to do in Gilead.

I would say look up some actual resistance stories from various wars. They aren't saints.

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't expect of the rebels to be angels, but I am seriously hoping those rebelling against Gilead taking over the USA have at least a bit less misogyny than Gilead. 

As ugly as this is - our rapist rebel leader actually gave June the choice and made it clear she was free to leave if she didn't want to.  Thats a ton better than Gilead, although he's still an asshole.

[Umbelina]

20 minutes ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I would say look up some actual resistance stories from various wars. They aren't saints.

As ugly as this is - our rapist rebel leader actually gave June the choice and made it clear she was free to leave if she didn't want to.  Thats a ton better than Gilead, although he's still an asshole.

Again, I don't think he's a rebel, in the way Gilead has used it.  He's not fighting to bring down Gilead, he's just fighting to stay out of Gilead, by stealing from them.

Two very different things.  

It will be interesting to see what the fighters in Chicago call themselves, maybe that will clear it all up, assuming we get there.

ETA yes, as I said above I don't expect people fighting for freedom to be saints.  Fighting to end Gilead though, IF they still treat women as objects?  That will be problematic for me.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Umbelina

[kitkat343]

Quote

Also, why didn't that woman with the gun stop that shit?

The woman with the gun said that June was a walking target and wanted to leave her on the train.  Given the fact that almost everyone who tries to help June winds up dead, she wasn't wrong about the level of danger associated with helping June and Janine.  

Quote

I do wonder though even if she's not intentionally exaggerating, if her testimony wouldn't sink Fred and free Serena.

In additional to the sexual assault charges, we also have seen Serena hit  Rita  (when Serena was angry about all the attention June got at the baby shower).  Serena also hit June when she became enraged after finding out about the visit to Jezebel's  and choked her when she was pregnant, threatening to hurt Hannah unless June kept the baby she was carrying safe.  Serena made June so scared for Hannah's safety that she asked Aunt Lydia and Rita to be the godmother and protect her baby.  An ordinary wife might be able to claim all of these things happened under duress of an abusive husband,  but Serena Joy was a highly visible supporter of Gilead before they came to power, and she will have a harder time playing an innocent victim of Gilead and her husband (although the fact that she's lost a finger will help her chances).    

Edited May 8, 2021 by kitkat343

[Umbelina]

4 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

The woman with the gun said that June was a walking target and wanted to leave her on the train.  Given the fact that almost everyone who tries to help June winds up dead, she wasn't wrong about the level of danger associated with helping June and Janine.  

Well, we could add up the numbers I suppose.

Emily, free, Nicole, free, 85 kids free, 9 handmaids free, the bomb maker, free, I'm sure there are more.  

Against how many dead?  Also, I don't think they died to "help June" in most cases, they died because Gilead killed them for trying to get away from Gilead, or from trying to bring Gilead down (freedom fighters/rebels.)

Also, I didn't see June forcing any of those handmaids out of that van, or ordering them to follow her across those railroad tracks, they could have stayed put.

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Umbelina

[mamadrama]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I just can't picture someone from Mayday insisting on a blow job, or not understanding what women are forced to do in Gilead.

Everyone has an agenda, even resistors. Just because your ultimate goal may be the better of the two doesn't mean that you're the more ethical. There have been plenty of people, people we celebrate, in positions of power who have engaged in abhorrent acts. Conditional help has always been a part of war. In recent history there were Bosnian Muslim women who were literally held captive in rape camps, only to be "saved" by someone who also demanded something sexual. Unfortunately choosing the lesser of 2 evils is common in these situations. 

There are probably some resistors who are genuinely concerned about how the women are being treated in Gilead. There are provably others who don't give a fuck. Any larger group has smaller factions whose goals may not necessarily line up with each other's. Just because they're on the right side of this fight doesn't mean that they're not also capable of evil. 

As @EllaWycliffe pointed out, as awful as that seemed, he DID give them a choice. Granted the choice was terrible-blow him or get blown up-but it was still more agency than what the women had in Gilead. Imo that's one of the reasons Janine did it. Not only did it allow her to 'help" but for the first time in years SHE was the one who got to decide on what was done to her body. 

I mean, the fucker can step on a landmine and get his willy blown off now for all I care (because it WAS a form of rape), but Janine (sadly) felt the return of some power and I gotta root for my girl. 

10 minutes ago, kitkat343 said:

The woman with the gun said that June was a walking target and wanted to leave her on the train.  Given the fact that almost everyone who tries to help June winds up dead, she wasn't wrong about the level of danger associated with helping June and Janine.  

Yep, she wasn't wrong. They do tend to drop like flies around June. 

[Whimsy]

This is a reminder to stay on topic for THIS episode. This thread has gotten way off-track with lots of things discussed that weren’t in THIS episode. There are lots of other threads for this show to discuss other topics. 

[mamadrama]

Someone said that they don't do any more closeups on June's face than they do anyone else's. My 14yo son accepted the challenge.

Grading was on a 4 point scale, points being the forehead, chin, and both cheeks. He only counted it as a closeup if 2 or more points touched the edge of the screen. He'd like to point out that most of June's scenes included Janine, but June got more frames.

June 29
Janine 11
Rita 2
Serena 0
Fred 1/2 
Steven 1
Moira 0

 

[chocolatine]

12 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I just can't picture someone from Mayday insisting on a blow job, or not understanding what women are forced to do in Gilead.

It's not like there's a Mayday HR department that conducts mandatory workplace harassment and sensitivity training with all Mayday recruits.

Everyone has personal motivations for participating in the resistance, some of them more noble than others.

[Pepper the Cat]

How is Rita supporting herself? That is one beautiful apartment she us living in. A place like that on Toronto or anywhere is the GTA would be $$$

[EllaWycliffe]

 

15 minutes ago, Pepper the Cat said:

How is Rita supporting herself? That is one beautiful apartment she us living in. A place like that on Toronto or anywhere is the GTA would be $$$

It was established when Moira was a new refugee and also Emily, that refugees get all kinds of assistance from the government.  She was also shown doing a speaking engagement in a previous episode where its possible it was a paid gig. 

[The Mighty Peanut]

I respectfully disagree that June was being in some way weak or hypocritical in being unable to perform a sexual favor.

June sees it as another rape (and she isn't wrong), another commander, another ceremony to survive after she came all this way and did so much so she would never have to be subservient for another man. 

For Janine, and this is a direct quote from an interview with Ann Dowd, "to perform sexual acts is no longer costly for Janine. That has been ripped away from her." I would even go a step further and say Janine is so tragically broken that provided the man isn't violent it is a means to connect with another human. So, I am glad Janine was finally able to "save" June. I just hope June is grateful. And oh sweet holy mother of god did my blood BOIL at the fake "crisis center". The lady there was so damn good at her job, convincing and "reasonable". So insidious!

I do disagree with what Janine said in the milk truck. If Charlotte was in a glass box terrified and in danger of being gassed or maimed, especially knowing they wouldn't harm her reproductive organs and a "damaged" girl would almost certainly be made a HM....she would have saved her child. 

Where June was wrong and where Janine or anyone really would have acted differently is that they wouldn't have wasted another night in grave danger for the satisfaction of killing a few commanders. I think the show has made it clear everyone knows it's June's fault Alma and the others are dead, and June knows they know. I still question how much she understands herself. Enough to feel remorse? Yes. Enough to learn not to give in to a bloodlusty killing wish? I'm not sure.

Edited May 8, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[Pepper the Cat]

2 hours ago, EllaWycliffe said:

 

It was established when Moira was a new refugee and also Emily, that refugees get all kinds of assistance from the government.  She was also shown doing a speaking engagement in a previous episode where its possible it was a paid gig. 

I understand that. But that apartment would be really really expensive. A 500 square foot apartment in Toronto starts around $1500 a month. Rita appears to have a huge garden suite. I would expect the government assistance would be more along the lines of a shared apartment. 

[EllaWycliffe]

2 minutes ago, Pepper the Cat said:

I understand that. But that apartment would be really really expensive. A 500 square foot apartment in Toronto starts around $1500 a month. Rita appears to have a huge garden suite. I would expect the government assistance would be more along the lines of a shared apartment. 

Agreed but I kinda think its like how on Friends, everyone had huge amazing apartments on waitressing salaries. :)

Also perhaps she has a generous patron, a church or what have you, who wants an oppressed refugee who saved a butt load of children to have a good place to live and recover. 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

Also perhaps she has a generous patron, a church or what have you, who wants an oppressed refugee who saved a butt load of children to have a good place to live and recover. 

Those charity events that Luke is running would be bringing in a ton of money. Especially since helping people who escaped from Gilead would probably be a world wide relief effort. Since she is basically the spokesperson for the people on the plane I could see them wanting to make sure she was set up comfortably. I would also imagine that the CIA guy would be helping out with some cash. I mean if she is living somewhere shitty and has to work long hours to survive the less time (and the less likely) she would speak out against the place she used to live.