On The Page: S&L Comic Talk

[scarynikki12]

Your thread for comic questions, answers, and related discussion.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I was wondering if there should be a separate thread for the various other portrayals of Superman/Lois -- the movies, the cartoons, the various TV series, as well as the Arrowverse or if everything should just be rolled up in one. 

I could see it making sense that there's a thread purely for the comics history, another one just for Arrowverse stuff and a third to compare/contrast this with such things as Smallville, Lois & Clark, Superman:TAS, etc.

[Lantern7]

The Kent twins reminds me of this story from the Silver Age (1964). I found it in a collection of "imaginary" stories put out by DC Comics a few years ago. Basically, Superman and Lois have twin sons, only one of whom has powers.

Lois's new friend at the Smallville Gazette is named Chrissy Beppo. Her last name is familiar to hardcore fans. Here's a profile of Beppo the Super Monkey. Yes, he actually was a thing. Because the Silver Age.

Finally, here's a profile of the Lex Luthor of Earth-3. He's more well known for being the father of Alexander Luthor: plot device of Crisis of Infinite Earths, asshole in Infinite Crisis. It's a stretch to think he's a direct inspiration of Capt. Luthor, but they have the armor and helmet thing working for them.

[Lantern7]

Lady with the heat vision at the end of tonight's episode . . . I'm thinking that's a variation of Power Girl. In the 1970's, DC Comics basically gave Earth-2 (the home of the Justice Society) their version of Supergirl: Kara Zor-L. The other potential inspiration is Galatea from Justice League Unlimited. She was a clone of Supergirl created by Cadmus.

Thinking about it further, the idea of "evil Superman" might have been inspired by the Injustice video games . . . which we saw Jordan play in the pilot. Now, as to how Superman would be in an intense video game in the Arrowverse? It doesn't bother me, but I'd like to see the writers explain that. Just for giggles, of course.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Lantern7

[BaggythePanther]

1 hour ago, Lantern7 said:

Lady with the heat vision at the end of tonight's episode . . . I'm thinking that's a variation of Power Girl.

No, they revealed her character in a casting announcement a few months ago. She’s 

Spoiler

Leslie Larr. I believe she’s typically a Supergirl villain but since Supergirl stole so many Superman characters, turnabout is fair play.

 

[miasth]

I read many fan theories that Edge is H'El and I am hoping that is who he is.  I think that would be a very interesting and a different way to go.

I feel like the show is heading to a point with Jon. They specifically showed him getting turned down by that girl which would seem small in the grand scheme. However, that just adds to all the other not great things he has experienced which makes me think the show is going somewhere with him. 

Speaking of Sarah too bad Jordan couldn't have face timed her or whatever they do in this universe when he was literally looking like death so she could see he had a legitimate reason to bail. Then again he would have had to come up with  a plausible lie to explain what was wrong with him and why he miraculously recovered.

The fortress scenes between Jordan and Clark hit me with the feels. Tyler Hoechlin is very young looking and he could have easily come off as more brother than Dad with the boys.  However he is very believable and I love Dad Clark scenes.  Lois and Jon also great. This show hit gold not only with a great cast but the fact they have great chemistry.

 

Edited June 12, 2021 by miasth

[Chris24601]

3 hours ago, miasth said:

I read many fan theories that Edge is H'El and I am hoping that is who he is.  I think that would be a very interesting and a different way to go.

I’ve been leaning that way as well; though I’m hoping they simplify it from the comic version as there was a lot of needless details added to him because the event he showed up in was a crossover with Supergirl and the then current Kon-El/Superboy so they tossed in details to make him relevant.

The straight forward version would be Jor-El’s lab assistant/“adopted” son who was sent into space by Jor-El on a mission to preserve and protect Kryptonian culture by any means necessary (which fits with the slightly dickish Jor-El AI we met in prior episodes).

This also would align with John Henry’s Earth... Superman on that Earth was more distant from Humanity because he didn’t meet Lois and have a family. He had the sense of duty, but not the sense of belonging to Earth that our Superman has. Then an adopted older brother who remembers Krypton and offers up family and a way to restore Krypton.

I think this may have been partially shown too in that JH’s Superman was always in black. There was no “what is Superman wearing?” associated with him just before the attacks. A common trend in depictions of Krypton starting with the Donner films has been as a cold and reserved society that favored a white/black color pallet. Post-Crisis they were basically emotionless monsters who wore black bodysuits and everything good about Superman’s nature and heroism (and his bright costume) came from the Kents. The DCEU similarly featured the main Kryptonians wearing muted colors over black bodysuits and Clark’s blue, red and gold version was a relic from Krypton’s golden age of exploration.

In other words, John Henry’s Superman in black could be a way of referencing that he always identified more with his Kryptonian heritage than humanity on that Earth and, in keeping with the show’s title, the difference that saves this world is Superman AND LOIS (and kids).

 

[kickingnames]

15 hours ago, miasth said:

I read many fan theories that Edge is H'El and I am hoping that is who he is.  I think that would be a very interesting and a different way to go.

I’m in favor of this, simply because it lines up with the “facepalm” moment I earlier this week, when I realized that all the major “L” characters in Superman’s story are connected to “El” characters (mostly Superman himself, but still).

[arc]

From the ep 11 thread:

32 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

From some quick Googling I don't think this is all that accurate.

Here's one link: https://www.cbr.com/judge-rules-dc-comics-owns-superboy-rights/

[...]

I'm not seeing any indication that the ending of Clark Kent Superboy as a character in the 80s was a legal maneuver or out of spite or anything like that. The fact that DC has had the right to do Clark Kent Superboy from 2013 and haven't revived him despite,rebooting suggests to me it is an editorial decision that they prefer to have Superboy be a different character than Clark Kent. 

Wikipedia backs me up:

Quote

The television show Legion of Super Heroes, which aired from 2006 to 2008, was originally meant to be titled Superboy and the Legion of Superheroes, but because this ongoing lawsuit left the ownership of Superboy in doubt, Warner Bros. Animation changed the title and replaced the character of Superboy with Superman (although he remained a teenager).

So it's been a thing for some time.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, arc said:

From the ep 11 thread:

Wikipedia backs me up:

So it's been a thing for some time.

There's a difference between DC not calling young Clark Kent "Superboy" out of legal concerns, as this link shows, and DC not using young Clark Kent as a character to cheat the Siegel family out of profits. which is what I thought the allegation was that they had done. 

As the link showed, they went ahead with the Legion cartoon and a young Superman despite the issue.

DC comics stopped generally using young Clark Kent doing superstuff in a costume in 1986ish with the Man of Steel/Crisis on Infinite Earths era reboot. There's no reason to believe that was to swindle the Siegel family rather than a decision that they wanted a different kind of Clark who was relatively new at using his powers on a Superman scale. 

[Trini]

 

[Lantern7]

Not sure where else to share these. This is a sketch of Superman that I got from artist Scott Hanna last summer . . .

. . . . and this is his bizarre counterpart, as drawn by Khoi Pham. I got this a few months ago.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 minutes ago, Affogato said:

The prime directive is an issue, though  it is clear that helping humans by suddenly fixing their issues with advanced technology, benign or weapon technology, is something superman usually tries to avoid.  This superman has mentioned it, I think. Moving soil  and water en mass could cause more harm than good to the environment.  Making food drop offs during famine is something I think he would do. So you don’t need to set these things aside and ignore them to enjoy the story. 
 

I have read and watched a lot of Superman over more than four decades of fandom, and can't remember any more than passing references to Superman expressly saying "The reason I don't end/minimize famine/poverty/homelessness/many illnesses etc. would be because that would be interfering with the natural development of society." Ironically, the main times that come to mind are times when Superman did ignore any sort of parallel to the Star Trek's Prime Directive and set himself up as a kind of overlord in the Injustice video game and the Kingdom Come series.

Anyway, there is a lot of daylight between Superman working to minimize these pervasive problems and becoming the sort of dictator that he is in Injustice/Kingdom Come.

I would also say that in the face of worldwide suffering that could be ended as easily as Superman could end it, any sort of Prime Directive style argument strikes me as kind of BS.

 

Edited March 22, 2023 by Chicago Redshirt

[cambridgeguy]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I have read and watched a lot of Superman over more than four decades of fandom, and can't remember any more than passing references to Superman expressly saying "The reason I don't end/minimize famine/poverty/homelessness/many illnesses etc. would be because that would be interfering with the natural development of society." Ironically, the main times that come to mind are times when Superman did ignore any sort of parallel to the Star Trek's Prime Directive and set himself up as a kind of overlord in the Injustice video game and the Kingdom Come series.

Anyway, there is a lot of daylight between Superman working to minimize these pervasive problems and becoming the sort of dictator that he is in Injustice/Kingdom Come.

It's often Jor-El who says Clark shouldn't interfere too much - he's supposed to inspire humanity, not do the job for them.   Delivering food in a famine?  Well, plenty of good people want to help out, but they can't get the food there as quickly as he can, so he'll step in.  However, he wouldn't unilaterally clean out a bunch of warehouses because people are suffering and he refuses to wait for people to get off their asses.

I'm not sure if they'll go there, but it would be interesting if the Fortress COULD cure Lois's cancer - would it be fair to use it for Lois but not everyone else?  If he did decide to share it with the world, then think of all the people who could have taken advantage of it, but unfortunately for them Lois didn't get cancer years ago.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

It's often Jor-El who says Clark shouldn't interfere too much - he's supposed to inspire humanity, not do the job for them.   Delivering food in a famine?  Well, plenty of good people want to help out, but they can't get the food there as quickly as he can, so he'll step in.  However, he wouldn't unilaterally clean out a bunch of warehouses because people are suffering and he refuses to wait for people to get off their asses.

I'm not sure if they'll go there, but it would be interesting if the Fortress COULD cure Lois's cancer - would it be fair to use it for Lois but not everyone else?  If he did decide to share it with the world, then think of all the people who could have taken advantage of it, but unfortunately for them Lois didn't get cancer years ago.

Yes, Jor-El in Superman: The Movie told Clark something along the lines of "It is forbidden for you to interfere in human history." 

But what does that mean, and why should Clark agree to do it? 

Isn't rescuing people from natural and manmade disasters, or supervillains, or intergalactic threats "interfering in human history"? Superman clearly does that stuff all the time. 

Is it just some kinds of interfering in human history, like those, are OK, but solving more mundane human problems like people starving to death, genocide, famine, disease and the like are not?

And of course, Superman I the very same movie in which Superman turns back time to save Lois.

IMO once you permit yourself to literally reverse the flow of time because you want to save one person, it seems like saying "But I'm going to allow world hunger, poverty etc. when I could relatively easily end or eliminate those ills because AI Space Dad told me I should" doesn't make much sense.

And to literally be able to hear sounds from around the world (as the Superman & Lois version can) and to be able to ignore or downplay the cries of anguish that he must hear despite having the ability to fairly easily help kinda would make someone something of a monster IMO.

Anyway, I suppose I should carry any additional discussion on this point to another thread and more closely talk about the stuff in the episode. 

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

At one point in time I thought I knew that Metropolis was New York, Gotham was Chicago, Bludhaven was Detroit. Star City, I don't know, maybe St Louis?  It makes more sense, particularly since New York exists, for Metropolis to have been originally Washington DC (and the daily Planet the Washington Post). What I mean by this is that the correspondences haven't been clear for a while. 

In any case, in this show, metropolis is  in Kansas. I thought it was more than a 2 hour drive, though, or they should have visited Martha more.

I've always thought Metropolis was where Chicago is.  In the Batman vs. Superman movie, Gotham and Metropolis were right across the bay from each other.  But that obviously can't be the case in the TV universe.  And now we are being told that Metropolis is only a "couple hours drive" from Smallville.  Even if Smallville is where Kansas City is, on the eastern edge of Kansas, there's no way that Metropolis can be Chicago.  So it seems things have changed again.

I agree that if it was only a 2 hour drive, that they would have visited as a family more often.

When Clark grabs Lois and they zip away quickly... how does Lois breathe?  Or is the journey so quick that it's over before she even needs to take a breath?  Seems like when we see him flying that there are definitely times when he goes on longer and/or slower flights.

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I've always thought Metropolis was where Chicago is.  In the Batman vs. Superman movie, Gotham and Metropolis were right across the bay from each other.  But that obviously can't be the case in the TV universe.  And now we are being told that Metropolis is only a "couple hours drive" from Smallville.  Even if Smallville is where Kansas City is, on the eastern edge of Kansas, there's no way that Metropolis can be Chicago.  So it seems things have changed again.

I agree that if it was only a 2 hour drive, that they would have visited as a family more often.

When Clark grabs Lois and they zip away quickly... how does Lois breathe?  Or is the journey so quick that it's over before she even needs to take a breath?  Seems like when we see him flying that there are definitely times when he goes on longer and/or slower flights.

Well, gotham's politics are most like Chicago and if Bludhaven isn't detroit I personally will nibble on the brim of my hat. I think my assumptions are both made a long time ago, and had to do with what the cities resembled. I have trouble remembering any details from any snyder movie, except a little from Watchman (and that is mostly because I found the actors memorable). Right next to each other? And on what river? Minneapolis/St Paul? Actually, I'm completely off base, but it still doesn't make sense, but there is a wikepedia entry.

Maybe we assume that Kansas City is Metropolis. I think Smallville is in the southern part of Kansas, with the lead mines.

I don't know about the breathing. I think one of the theories, not just re superman, is that there is a forcefield that would expand to cover her and provide air and warmth (why don't they freeze to death) during the trip. Probably the speed he left the newspaper office was fast enough to blow paper, but not that fast. You would think more people he grabbed would have heart attacks.

It was cute that he was eager to investigate with her.

[Affogato]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolis_(comics)

The subject of where Metropolis is came up. The answer is not clear.

[cambridgeguy]

5 hours ago, Affogato said:

Maybe we assume that Kansas City is Metropolis. I think Smallville is in the southern part of Kansas, with the lead mines.

We know where it was meant to be before they split the show off from the Arrowverse.  An east coast location makes the lack of visits to Martha more understandable.

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

We know where it was meant to be before they split the show off from the Arrowverse.  An east coast location makes the lack of visits to Martha more understandable.

Hmm so that graphic shows that Metropolis is roughly where New York is and Gotham City is roughly where Chicago is.  Star City is where Green Arrow operates... I cannot tell if the dot is underneath the girl's arm on the right, which would place it roughly in Kansas, or underneath her hair on the left.  The way the words are shifted over makes me think the dot is on the right.  But I always thought Star City was somewhere on the west coast, like Portland, Seattle or San Francisco.

I guess the short answer is, nobody knows for sure.  And even on "S&L" they seem to have moved Metropolis.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

We know where it was meant to be before they split the show off from the Arrowverse.  An east coast location makes the lack of visits to Martha more understandable.

It does. It absolutely does. But smallville is definitely in kansas.  Right?  

[norcalgal]

3 hours ago, Affogato said:

It does. It absolutely does. But smallville is definitely in kansas.  Right?  

Yeah, I thought that was supposed to be the one constant about Smallville, that it’s located in Kansas.  Has this show changed that too?

[rmontro]

53 minutes ago, norcalgal said:

Yeah, I thought that was supposed to be the one constant about Smallville, that it’s located in Kansas.  Has this show changed that too?

I think over the years there have been two schools of thought about Smallville.  One that it's in Kansas (or thereabouts), and the other that it's in the NY countryside near Metropolis.  Different writers choose whatever they find more convenient.  But I'm sure this show isn't the first place to suggest Smallville is near Metropolis.  I'm including comics in that statement though, I'm not sure about all the different Superman TV shows...

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:13 PM, GHScorpiosRule said:

ETA: my only knowledge of Manheim is from DCAU and Smallville, and I came away that he’s always been a screw up and minion of Darkseid.

Here, it’s the opposite. Which is the more accurate portrayal?

"More accurate" is a hard thing to say because the guy has apparently been around since 1971, and of course different creators will have different takes on him.

He has always been a crime boss, AFAIK, so he always had to have something going on upstairs. Whether this version is directly or indirectly connected to Darkseid remains to be seen. 

This version is more reminiscent of Marvel's Kingpin in that he has managed to create a veneer of respectability while maintaining a vast criminal empire. Because this show has a more serious tone than Smallville and the cartoon Justice League, it seems to me fitting that Mannheim is more than just a Darkseid flunky/patsy and more than just a rando thug to be outmanuevered by the Big Dumb Alien.

[moonshine71]

On 3/21/2023 at 9:00 PM, scarynikki12 said:

The somber music in the opening scene let us know it was bad news before Lois got her test results. 

Go to Bali Lois.

I like Natalie and Sarah going to the party but Metropolis is not a good idea since Natasha and her family are there.

If we can't have flashbacks to Lois and Clark reporter fun then I at least want a story in each episode. They're fun when they reminisce. Agreed on the paperweights Crissy but there's still a chance Clark's speed will make them fall off the surfaces.

I'm calling our current Bad SpiralFace until we get an actual name. Damn, George, you were mixed up in whatever SpiralFace has going on?

Clark's enthusiasm at working with Lois in Metropolis again is adorable.

So SpiralFace killed George in Smallville. Why did I think he'd gone to Metropolis?

I want to reiterate Nat's Travis and this Travis are not the same...ok looks like this one is a douche so that's done. Go find someone new Nat!

Eliza's dress is super cute. If I were still in high school or college I'd want it.

Sarah and Nat have great friendship chemistry. HA! I love Sarah just flat out calling herself Nat's WingWoman. The direct approach is the right one.

Aw, Jordan's social awkwardness is endearing. He's not usually this bad in Smallville so maybe there's something in the Metropolis air that enhances it? Like Clark's dorkiness which also seems greater in the city.

I really love how Clark gives Lois space when she needs it. Too many real and tv husbands pressure their partner because they're too  impatient to know what's going on.

Uh oh, he thinks you're Natasha. LEAVE NOW NAT!

I like Sarah offering Jordan her shirt. Nice reversal of the trope.

Is Lana going to date Irons??? Tortellini does sound good though.

Careful, Supes, SpiralFace is in his employ so he may have access to something that can hurt you.

How Jon didn't realize Eliza was ready to make a move I don't know. She was practically wearing a sign.

I'm always impressed by people who can give out clues seconds before they die/are killed. I doubt I'd be able to do anything other than sputter in real life, not that I'm eager to find out.

Man SpiralFace has some serious power. Nice to leave Lana and Irons alive.

It's good for Supes to hear some harsh truths. It makes him a better person and better at superheroing.

Yep Lois has cancer. If it's not pregnancy it's always cancer. Now I'm wondering if she'll die and get resurrected by Dr Frankenstein.

Surely someone is watching or filming this hug between Lois and Superman? 

Tyler is doing a fantastic job showing Clark's heart shattering and Bitsie's channeling Lois' own fear perfectly. 

Ok SpiralFace is clearly a woman so...maybe this Earth's Iron's ssi

Onomatopoeia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Onomatopoeia_(comics)

[scarynikki12]

I know who Onomatopoeia is but the show hasn't said the name yet. I think it's been mentioned in Closed Captions but not in spoken words.

[Affogato]

On 3/28/2023 at 9:25 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I know who Onomatopoeia is but the show hasn't said the name yet. I think it's been mentioned in Closed Captions but not in spoken words.

It really sucks as a call name.