S12.E09: First Blood

[catrox14]

“First Blood” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

THE HUNTERS BECOME THE HUNTED – After being arrested for the attempted assassination of the President of The United States, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) must find a way out of an underground, government-run, detention facility in the middle of nowhere. Determined to find her sons, Mary (guest star Samantha Smith) and Castiel (Misha Collins) seek assistance from an unlikely source. Robert Singer directed the episode written by Andrew Dabb (#1209). Original airdate 1/26/2017.

[Mick Lady]

And what else happens on Thursdays catrox?? 3...2...1...

[catrox14]

 

[catrox14]

Also, this their 250th episode. What a milestone!

[Mick Lady]

Really?! I had no idea!

[Morrigan2575]

Wow. 250 episodes unbelievable. So proud of my little show.

I really enjoyed this episode. Loved seeing the boys being total BAMFs out in the field. I spent the whole episode wondering what spell they did to to fake their deaths. Should have known Billie would be involved, after all they put her in the previously for a reason, LOL.

I loved Castiel's speech at the end, it was perfect.

I don't understand why Dean/Sam made the Deal with Billie but, didn't call for Crowley. Although, I could fanwank that they didn't want to deal with the King of Hell but, thought Billie would at least keep them out of hell.

I loved Dean delivering the line from Cool Hand Luke. I also enjoyed the BMOL, not Mr Ketch (sp?) But the other guy, he's got personality. Mr. Ketch looks a lot like John Barrowman, it was freaking me out the entire episode.

Edited January 27, 2017 by Morrigan2575

[Jediknight]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

Also, this their 250th episode. What a milestone!

But more importantly it was the episode before the premiere of Archie Twin Peaks!  Did you know Riverdale was premiering tonight?  It came as a shock to me, so much so that when I heard we were a minute away I must have blacked out or something, because I missed the preview for next week's episode.  Because they obviously wouldn't have had no preview and used that time to promote Riverdale.

So, the Winchesters and Castiel are told that not honoring the deal will cause chaos on a universal scale, and Castiel kills Billie to stop the deal from being honored.  Stop breaking the world for crying out loud.  That's why the British Men of Letters want to work with them, they want to stop them from breaking the world repeatedly.

With how much she was in the previews, I was expecting the return of Lady Bevill.

[Diane]

Really enjoyed this one, it went to fast. We had BAMF's and smart at the same time. They worked together to get out. Call back to Usual Suspects (smart Sam and Dean), yay! Loved that Mary wasn't going to let her boys die and that Cas saved her. Can't say I am sorry to see Billie go I was so very tired of her threatening the boys.  Going to have to rewatch, I was on the edge of my seat the whole time.

[MysteryGuest]

It was good to see the boys as competent hunters again.  I guess we now know what the issue will be with the BMOL...they'll kill all monsters and any humans who happen to get in the way.  That's not going to sit too well with Sam and Dean.

I know I keep saying the same thing, but my God it's hard to watch these episodes with commercials when you're used to streaming.  The ads seemed endless and they totally ruin the continuity of the episode.  I honestly think I need to go back to watching on the 2nd night when I can watch with no commercials.  I think my appreciation of the show will benefit greatly.

[Morrigan2575]

5 minutes ago, Jediknight said:

 It came as a shock to me, so much so that when I heard we were a minute away I must have blacked out or something, because I missed the preview for next week's episode.  Because they obviously wouldn't have had no preview and used that time to promote Riverdale.

 

Oh good it wasn't just me. I actually thought I lost it for a minute there. I waited for the preview and then nothing but Riverdale. 

3 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I know I keep saying the same thing, but my God it's hard to watch these episodes with commercials when you're used to streaming.  The ads seemed endless and they totally ruin the continuity of the episode.  I honestly think I need to go back to watching on the 2nd night when I can watch with no commercials.  I think my appreciation of the show will benefit greatly.

If you have a DVR, you can record the show, wait 15-20 minutes and then start watching the show from the beginning. It's enough of a buffer that you can FF through all the commercials.  

[MysteryGuest]

No, no DVR unfortunately.  I barely have cable.  This silly show is the only thing I watch on actual TV.  Everything else is streamed.  

[Mulva]

So which one was willing to die?

[2Old2BAFangirl]

So happy to have the boys back!!  I hate hiatus.

I liked this one.  "We're not trapped with you, YOU are trapped with us" was awesome.  I'm looking forward to re-watching this one!

And no preview at the end sucked!!

[companionenvy]

Loved the episode, as a whole. Sam and Dean being BAMF, Cas and Mary teaming up, a plot that kept me guessing. Cas doing something surprising and genuinely interesting for the character. But, there were still some things that bugged:

1. I know they wanted to set up the ending, but Cas has been way too pathetic for way too long. He let the pregnant woman escape last week, he can't complete a hunt on his own, even (mostly) angeled up, and his big plan is to contact the shady guys, which is obviously going to come back to bite them. While, as I said, I liked Cas killing Billie (For dramatic/character purposes), I don't like that it comes on the heels of him being the perpetual screw up -- who has now killed another quasi-angel for dubious reasons, not that I feel too bad for Billie, who is taunting the Winchesters at this point.

2. It should have been blatantly obvious to the Winchesters that the BMOL weren't going to let the soldiers go, yet they totally shrugged it off.

3. The BMOL are much more interesting (in theory) if they are ruthlessly offing supernatural beings than they are once they devolve into killing innocent LE for the greater good (in theory). 

4. And this is the biggie: I liked the Billie plot, but I actually don't believe Dean and Sam would have made that deal. Not after six weeks. And no, I don't buy that six weeks in isolation is worse than hell, which is literally designed to torture you in the most horrific way possible. And it took Dean thirty years to break there. In any case, even though I'm sure Dean intended to sacrifice himself, not Sam, if there's one thing that I really believe is worse than hell for Dean Winchester, it is being responsible for Sam's death. And there was a not-insubstantial chance that that's how things would have gone, as presumably Sam was planning on sacrificing himself for Dean as well, even if Dean didn't anticipate the Mary possibility. 

Also, I don't accept that the Winchesters had no other cards to play. Off the top of my head, they should have at least tried talking to the Feds at a certain point - which has worked for them in the past. Even if no convenient demons showed up to verify their story, I have to believe, after six weeks of isolation, they'd figure out a way that they could at least have a chance of convincing at least one Fed that they were telling a version of the truth. Heck, before they'd make a deal that had a chance of resulting in the other brother's death, I think they'd even risk giving the authorities the contact info of someone who could provide backup - Cas, Mary, Jody or another hunter. I mean, Cas has angelic powers. Mary could be proven to be their mother - who is known to be dead, and isn't as old as Mary Winchester should be. That seems like a better play than the route they went.

So, I liked the episode a lot, but it required turning my brain off. 

[MysteryGuest]

6 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

Not after six weeks. And no, I don't buy that six weeks in isolation is worse than hell, which is literally designed to torture you in the most horrific way possible. And it took Dean thirty years to break there.

I agree with this.  While I'm sure it was no picnic being locked in there by themselves, I can't imagine it's worse than actual hell, especially with as much guilt as Dean has over actually torturing people, himself.  I just don't see them being on a par.

I missed the very opening of the episode, so did they explain why the dark-haired agent was so hell bent on killing the Winchesters?  Was he just carrying out the president's orders, or was there something else going on? It seemed personal to him.

[bmoore4026]

And now it's time for our annual "Winchester Bros in Jail" episode.  And they were able to get themselves out by themselves in their own fashion.  Lovely.  I mean, yeah, Castiel killed Death and the British Men of Letters killed those soldiers and agents, but still.  Also, it looks like Mommy Winchester is heading for the dark side.  Mommy dearest murder by season's end!  Yay!!!!

[AwesomO4000]

7 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

2. It should have been blatantly obvious to the Winchesters that the BMOL weren't going to let the soldiers go, yet they totally shrugged it off.

Agreed. Unless they just couldn't conceive of that happening. Though even I have to admit that I was surprised that they killed the lab tech and periphery people also.

11 minutes ago, companionenvy said:

3. The BMOL are much more interesting (in theory) if they are ruthlessly offing supernatural beings than they are once they devolve into killing innocent LE for the greater good (in theory). 

Oh, I already don't like that they are ruthlessly offing all supernatural beings. That poor girl who had accidental powers was bad enough, but if they start killing beings like the Xana (sp?) - and especially Sully - I'll be pissed.

[Ninamags]

What a fantastic episode.  Finally seeing Sam and Dean being all bad-ass was great.  

 

Now I get the episode title.  I told myself they were going all Rambo on the soldiers. Loved it!!

The Brits do tie up ALL loose ends, don't they?? ??

[catrox14]

14 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I agree with this.  While I'm sure it was no picnic being locked in there by themselves, I can't imagine it's worse than actual hell, especially with as much guilt as Dean has over actually torturing people, himself.  I just don't see them being on a par.

I feel like is to reinforce the fucked up idea of brodependency . That being all alone for a liitle while is more than Dean can stand. Well he was willing to go into the Empty twice to save the universe and then to save Sam and I presume this would have been another trip to the Empty. So that's just bullshit IMO

Edited January 27, 2017 by catrox14

[bearcatfan]

Interesting how the one guy was so sure that Sam and Dean were blood thirsty killers even after they merely put the lab guy in a drawer rather than killing him. In fact, Sam and Dean didn't kill anyone, yet he was still sure they were the bad guys. I don't think there would have been any reasoning with him but maybe with the older guy. He probably would have listened if they had been able to get Cas or Crowley to do some magic to prove that they weren't crazy.

[ZennyKenny]

I was denied critical, need-to-know information on the SPN time-change (and if you get that reference, I love you), so I only caught the 2nd half of it.

Ok, I have to admit that I'm starting to warm up to the British MoL. I think this is because of the variety in characters. I'm pretty sure that I'd be hating the concept if it was all just Lady McNugget.

Billie's death was very unsatisfying after teasing the idea that one or more Winchester may get stuck in the Empty; I really wanted to see what that was like, and watch them figure out a way to break the rules and escape from even that.

Speaking of letdowns... I feel like I should brace myself for there being absolutely NO cosmic consequences whatsoever for Castiel breaking that pact that the Winchesters made with Billie. I would be pleasantly surprised if I were wrong though.

Also, +1 for no Lucifer this week.

[companionenvy]

Quote

Oh, I already don't like that they are ruthlessly offing all supernatural beings. That poor girl who had accidental powers was bad enough, but if they start killing beings like the Xana (sp?) - and especially Sully - I'll be pissed.

I agree with you, and that would be quite enough to label them as evil in my book, but there's still a level of complexity to the argument that the supernatural beings are simply too dangerous to exist - at least, enough so that your villain is somewhere above the level of Mustache McTwirlerson. But there wasn't even all that much of a risk to leaving the guards alive - in fact, there wasn't any risk to the world, unless you believe (as Cas apparently does) that the Winchesters are so super-duper vital to all of reality that anything that threatens them must be taken out for the Greater Good. The BMOL don't seem to believe that, to say the least, so they essentially committed mass murder to make sure Sam and Dean were no longer at risk of capture.

[MysteryGuest]

I wonder how the show will do in the ratings for tonight.  How many people remembered it was coming on an hour earlier?  I guess we'll know tomorrow. 

Edited January 27, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[SueB]

To quote Han Solo.... "I have a bad feeling about this."

That "cosmic consequences" was not a throwaway line IMO. I think this will have an impact beyond the BMoL.  But, OTOH, Yay! for Cas who basically said 'f*ck that shit, no Winchester is gonna die on my watch'.  

Frankly, the entire episode I was almost as worried about Cas as I was the boys.  He's spiraling again. BIG TIME.  He feels like everything he does just winds up bad.  And it's NOT TRUE.  But that's where his head is at.  So Sam and Dean are going to have to manually extract his head from up his butt.  Because Cas is good and wonderful and provides value to this world.  

Loved, LOVED the  'we're not trapped with you, you're trapped with us.'   For the 250th episode, I thought having it be the Winchester Brothers go Rambo was a really great idea.  They were SO smart.  Once they got out, this was a no brainer for them.  I bet Dad put them through ALL sorts of survival/paramilitary exercises.  And they Macguyvered up several things: the bear trap (!), the light, the use of the map, the guns, the knife, etc...   

ETA: I had no problem with Crowley refusing Cas.  It wasn't cosmic (as far as he knew) and he has ultimate faith in the brothers.

Bits that I noticed:
- Dean consulted with Sam but Dean was in his usual leadership role with the call to Billie
- I think the 6 weeks was there way of saying 'if no one has rescued us now, we're going to have to make our own way'.  PLUS I think they were pretty sure that being off the books in a secret facility and being considered a threat to POTUS meant they were going to end up dead anyway.  I'm not saying I AGREE with the logic but that was what they were selling.  But the decision to make a deal WAS the weakest part of the story IMO.
- Geez, is Mary a Winchester or WHAT.  Insta-sacrifice, making a deal with BMoL.  I'm thinking she got this bad DNA from her Dad and passed it onto the boys.  
 

Headcanon:  They were gonna rock, paper, scissors for it and winner got to die.  And Dean, IMO, has often lost at rock, paper, scissors, but he may have lulled Sam into a false sense of security all these years -- he would have won this one.  

Edited January 27, 2017 by SueB
To fix who the writer was

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, SueB said:

This was a B-L episode.

It was written by Dabb

[SueB]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It was written by Dabb

I'll correct.  Still... I have a bad feeling about this.  

[SueB]

And another thing... when Cas killed Billy, I immediately thought of Meg "What?! Somebody had to."  

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, SueB said:

I'll correct.  Still... I have a bad feeling about this.  

I'm not gonna say anything about Misha's credit change as being a harbinger of doom....

[Wynne88]

Love it when Sam and Dean are tough and smart.  Loved the episode as a whole despite a few nitpicks which I just plan to ignore.

[catrox14]

Just now, SueB said:

And another thing... when Cas killed Billy, I immediately thought of Meg "What?! Somebody had to."  

kinda pissed about Billie...it does open up a possibility that Death returns

[Mick Lady]

I just tried to "Like" a post from catrox, and was told: "I'm not allowed to like a post fro this user" What's that about? Am I kicked of this site?

Okay, but I wish I had been PMed.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I just tried to "Like" a post from catrox, and was told: "I'm not allowed to like a post fro this user" What's that about? Am I kicked of this site?

Okay, but I wish I had been PMed.

Don't worry. That is a weird blerp I get from time to time.

[AwesomO4000]

30 minutes ago, Mick Lady said:

I just tried to "Like" a post from catrox, and was told: "I'm not allowed to like a post fro this user" What's that about?

It means it thought you tried to like it twice. It happens to me often, because sometimes I have a mouse that's overenthusiastic.

Edited January 27, 2017 by AwesomO4000
Quoted the wrong line.

[bethy]

Overall, I think I liked it. The tone was somber throughout and I like how that foreshadowed the deal the boys had made. 

I also loved seeing Dean and Sam take out all the soldiers so effectively and how well they worked together. They spoke very little to each other but were in pretty perfect synch throughout their escape.

The Cass and Mary stuff, for me, was kind of boring. I honestly don't remember where Cass is being-wise. Is he human? He seems to have no powers. He's not a successful hunter on his own. I just don't remember when or how he became so ineffectual. He's gotten so mopey and sadsack.

The BMoL letter writer had what I think of as a working-class English accent. Lady what's her name obviously didn't and as MoL, I would assume they would be fairly elite, like the American MoL, who looked down on the hunters as sort of blue collar Joes. I don't know. I just thought it was interesting.

[catrox14]

Man, the more I think about it, the more I say "fuck you" show for making Dean be the one who says being alone is worse than Hell. That really pisses me off.

[7kstar]

Much to like and much to have a check off.

Check off

Make us think Mary will die.

Reason to have the boys locked up so they can escape and use Billie

Kill Billie

Have the boys needing help from the bad guys but hopefully confuse them into accepting them as good guys

I'm sure there is more but all I can think of for now.

That said I did enjoy and found myself liking and wanting to watch again.  Happy with it all of course not!

[catrox14]

I really wanted to LOVE this episode but upon further review, I find it unsatisfying ultimately. It's only saved from being in the dislike category because of Jensen face acting in the prison and Misha's acting when Cas saves them all. That was fantastic.

I could buy Dean and Sam's decision to make a deal with Billie if the episode had bothered to give us insight into Dean and Sam's frame of minds.  How bout chopping down overly long opening with Mick and the grumpy hunter recruiting conversation that exists solely to set up the same pitch to Mary at the end. Also they 100% ripped off using a typewriter to communicate with someone else from Fringe.   Drop the 6 scenes of the boys getting their 3 squares a day to show time passing, and show Dean and Sam's mental deterioration by showing some kind of internal thoughts that would lead Dean and Sam to make a deal with Billie. 

Drop the on screen convo with Cas and Mary and the BMoL. They could have had that convo on the phone. So unnecessary and again too much time spent on that rather than internal monologues of the boys.

No explanation for why Dean wasn't praying to Cas at least ONCE.

No explanation for why Agent Stephen Lobo seemed to really have it out for Dean personally.  So weird.

I would have watched the whole episode be the cat and mouse of Dean and Sam getting out and setting the traps for the feds. 

I wish I liked it more.

Edited January 27, 2017 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

53 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

No explanation for why Dean wasn't praying to Cas at least ONCE.

Or Sam for that matter.

Does prayer not work anymore? I don't remember them establishing that, and it wouldn't make sense anyway, because even after the angels fell, prayer still worked. So yeah, that was a large logic/canon fail there.

[ahrtee]

2 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Does prayer not work anymore? I don't remember them establishing that, and it wouldn't make sense anyway, because even after the angels fell, prayer still worked. So yeah, that was a large logic/canon fail there.

That was one question that really bothered me.  Why couldn't Cas hear them?  He said he could hear Claire, and could find her that way.  I'd assume that Dean tried to call Cas before Billie, because she would be the last resort.  So is it just one of those "he can hear prayers/find people except when he can't" based on what the story needs?  Some explanation would have helped.   

Once they got out of jail and they had no idea of where they were:  they had a working cellphone.  Wouldn't it have some kind of GPS or location service to tell them where they were?  (Well, maybe the agents had disabled it so the lab tech couldn't find out, though they didn't even try...)  But even if the van was low-jacked, it could have given them a head start (with that 45-minute window before the agents found the lab tech).  It would at least have gotten them out of the immediate vicinity so they wouldn't have had to run so much.  The badguys already knew where they were.  Getting a little further away, even if they could track them, would have helped delay, especially since they only had to evade for about 6 hours.  (I assume they didn't want the agents to catch up with them even after Billie showed up, because there would still be one Winchester left to re-capture...)  

I also have to applaud Sam's amazing map skills, if he can stand in the middle of a forest surrounded by mountains, take a quick look at a map and immediately know which mountain is which--especially in the rain, so he couldn't even tell direction by the sun.  The mountains around me aren't labeled so clearly.

My other  big question (and I'm actually being serious for this one) is:  were they deliberately trying to lead the agents to them so they could incapacitate them?  Maybe that was their plan, to give time for whoever survived Billie to escape?  It doesn't seem like a good plan, but otherwise, choosing to hole up in the first building they came across when they knew the badguys were right behind seems kind of...silly.   And they had no way of knowing there would even be a cabin there, much less with anything they could use, because....they had no idea where they were.  

But if they weren't deliberately trying to get caught, and as SueB pointed out:

3 hours ago, SueB said:

 I bet Dad put them through ALL sorts of survival/paramilitary exercises.  And they Macguyvered up several things: the bear trap (!), the light, the use of the map, the guns, the knife, etc...   

Then they were being pretty obvious with their trail.  Anyone who's *ever* watched a TV show or read a book that involves tracking someone through the woods knows (a) you should at least try to cover your footprints (ie, stay to rock or grass or at least try not to leave large, obvious prints in mud.)  Granted, there was a lot of mud and it was hard to avoid, but,  (b) when you're trying to lose someone in the wilderness and you go through a stream, YOU DON'T JUST GO STRAIGHT ACROSS TO THE OTHER SIDE...you go up or downstream to at least give yourself a head start while they search the riverbank to find out *where* you got out.  At the very least, you can double back.  They were either very careless or deliberately leading them on.

The other things Sue mentioned: the bear trap, the map, the weapons...were all things they came across through sheer serendipity, not anything they had to figure out or rig for themselves.

So, a big survivalist skill/logic fail for me.  But having said that, I did enjoy Dean's attitude and I wasn't bored.  I actually liked the Mary/Cas scenes.  And I liked the BMoL setup that was showing Ketch's dark side.  I think Dean and Sam noticed the "you left them alive?" question and that will probably come into play later, but did Mary?  I don't remember.  

So, as an ep, massive logic fail/plot holes for me, but a win for acting.  Which is better than many eps so far, and I did enjoy it.    

What do you think Dabb was apologizing for in his tweet?

[mertensia]

Total unexpected isolation is how I would break Dean if I had to.  He's not like, say, Gil Grissom from CSI who would do very well in isolation. So, yeah, I can see that his being unexpectedly in isolation-realizing this was possibly forever- and just going "can't cope".

I think God put a "you save the boys" imperative into Cas.

Please, Mary, don't fall for the BMoL.

[Demented Daisy]

I think Dabb was apologizing for how poorly written this episode was.  People spend years in solitary confinement.  Sam and Dean can't stand six weeks? Puh-leez.  Worse than hell.  Yeah, okay, whatever.  

I assume Sam never read The Hunger Games.  Would have given him everything he needed to know about running/hiding from attackers.

I didn't mind the episode -- I won't say I loved it, mainly because I thought we were supposed to be going back to "bad-ass Cas" this season -- but the ending ruined it for me.  I agree with @ahrtee -- way too many logic/plot holes.  And the coincidences!  Lazy, lazy writing.  

[SueB]

4 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That was one question that really bothered me.  Why couldn't Cas hear them?  He said he could hear Claire, and could find her that way.  I'd assume that Dean tried to call Cas before Billie, because she would be the last resort.  So is it just one of those "he can hear prayers/find people except when he can't" based on what the story needs?  Some explanation would have helped.   

Once they got out of jail and they had no idea of where they were:  they had a working cellphone.  Wouldn't it have some kind of GPS or location service to tell them where they were?  (Well, maybe the agents had disabled it so the lab tech couldn't find out, though they didn't even try...)  But even if the van was low-jacked, it could have given them a head start (with that 45-minute window before the agents found the lab tech).  It would at least have gotten them out of the immediate vicinity so they wouldn't have had to run so much.  The badguys already knew where they were.  Getting a little further away, even if they could track them, would have helped delay, especially since they only had to evade for about 6 hours.  (I assume they didn't want the agents to catch up with them even after Billie showed up, because there would still be one Winchester left to re-capture...)  

I also have to applaud Sam's amazing map skills, if he can stand in the middle of a forest surrounded by mountains, take a quick look at a map and immediately know which mountain is which--especially in the rain, so he couldn't even tell direction by the sun.  The mountains around me aren't labeled so clearly.

My other  big question (and I'm actually being serious for this one) is:  were they deliberately trying to lead the agents to them so they could incapacitate them?  Maybe that was their plan, to give time for whoever survived Billie to escape?  It doesn't seem like a good plan, but otherwise, choosing to hole up in the first building they came across when they knew the badguys were right behind seems kind of...silly.   And they had no way of knowing there would even be a cabin there, much less with anything they could use, because....they had no idea where they were.  

But if they weren't deliberately trying to get caught, and as SueB pointed out:

Then they were being pretty obvious with their trail.  Anyone who's *ever* watched a TV show or read a book that involves tracking someone through the woods knows (a) you should at least try to cover your footprints (ie, stay to rock or grass or at least try not to leave large, obvious prints in mud.)  Granted, there was a lot of mud and it was hard to avoid, but,  (b) when you're trying to lose someone in the wilderness and you go through a stream, YOU DON'T JUST GO STRAIGHT ACROSS TO THE OTHER SIDE...you go up or downstream to at least give yourself a head start while they search the riverbank to find out *where* you got out.  At the very least, you can double back.  They were either very careless or deliberately leading them on.

The other things Sue mentioned: the bear trap, the map, the weapons...were all things they came across through sheer serendipity, not anything they had to figure out or rig for themselves.

So, a big survivalist skill/logic fail for me.  But having said that, I did enjoy Dean's attitude and I wasn't bored.  I actually liked the Mary/Cas scenes.  And I liked the BMoL setup that was showing Ketch's dark side.  I think Dean and Sam noticed the "you left them alive?" question and that will probably come into play later, but did Mary?  I don't remember.  

So, as an ep, massive logic fail/plot holes for me, but a win for acting.  Which is better than many eps so far, and I did enjoy it.    

What do you think Dabb was apologizing for in his tweet?

It WAS a setup the whole time.   They wanted to send a 'back off' message.  But they needed to find the right place for a trap.  They didn't find it until the cabin ("that'all work).  So the 'crap' was because they came close too quickly.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, mertensia said:

Total unexpected isolation is how I would break Dean if I had to.  He's not like, say, Gil Grissom from CSI who would do very well in isolation. So, yeah, I can see that his being unexpectedly in isolation-realizing this was possibly forever- and just going "can't cope".

Except he was ready to take on total sudden unexpected isolation in s10 when he learned about the Darkness and that he would be sent somewhere alone so that he never hurt anyone ever again and still be the lock and key. And that he would not put that burden on anyone else. It was only after he was given the directive to kill Sam and Sam put the pictures of Mary in front of him that Dean chose to kill Death, because he couldn't kill Sam. Not because he couldn't bear to be alone.  And no I don't think it was the Mark that let Dean be that brave.

Again in s11 he sought to make a deal with Billie to save Sam, he knew  after death he would be in the Empty which it has been implied is something he would never come back from and it's not Heaven or Hell or Purgatory.

In this case it wasn't truly total isolation. He was visited at least 3 times a day by the soldier delivering food. That 10 seconds of human interaction would have been enough for Dean to start saying hello to him everyday and make a game of it. It's complete bs that Dean would have given up after 6 weeks when he KNEW it was six weeks without being shown praying to Cas, or even Amara for help after that short amount of time. The only way that Dean gives up in that short amount of time is if he believed Sam was dead which can't be the case because he told Billie to talk to him about a deal so he knew Sam was still alive. 

If they wanted it to be the case for Dean they needed to make a much clearer, stronger argument for why he opted out after such a short time vs what he's been through in his entire life. Dabb did not present any compelling argument for Dean to make a deal because he had been broken after 6 weeks in isolation. Making that deal as a strategic move to make sure that Sam was left in the world to fight would have been in character for Dean if repetitive and annoying. But adding the line that Dean found it worse than Hell and THAT is why he made the deal is infuriating and reductive for Dean.

What would have sold the whole thing and even some justification for killing off Billie is to have her double cross Dean by trying to take all the Winchesters and to tie it back to whatever promises he made to her back in the Asa Fox episode to let him back in the house to save Sam.

[bethy]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the stupidity of the whole "this was worse than hell" thing gets dumber and dumber. We KNOW that their time in solitary wasn't worse than hell, Show. We KNOW that - you showed us in great detail how bad hell is, not just for Dean, but also for Sam. So to an extent it makes me feel like both of them were just willing to give up, like they're just tired of life and the fight and that whatever argument they were eventually going to have over who went back to being dead would be less about "I want to sacrifice myself for you" and more about "I'm tired and I don't want to do this anymore. You stay."

On another note, I do think that they were intentionally trying to lure the Army guys into the cabin so they could deal with them. Though, yes, they were incredibly careless about leaving footprints for the guys to follow in the first place. That I didn't think was intentional.  

[DittyDotDot]

WOW, inoffensive, but boring and really lazy, if you ask me. It was okay, I guess...I don't know. It's not a good sign when halfway through the episode you start laughing uncontrollably at something--not in a good way either--and by the end of the episode can't even remember what was so funny. Whatever. 

I kinda spent the whole episode thinking I would've preferred to see Castiel try to work that case.

11 hours ago, SueB said:

And another thing... when Cas killed Billy, I immediately thought of Meg "What?! Somebody had to."  

Me too!! Too bad Cass had to be such a sad sack throughout the episode in order to pull it off. 

7 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Does prayer not work anymore? I don't remember them establishing that, and it wouldn't make sense anyway, because even after the angels fell, prayer still worked. So yeah, that was a large logic/canon fail there.

Yeah, why Dean would summon and make a deal with Billie that would end with his death before he would try prayer is a bit of a stretch. I mean, I know Dean's not a prayin' man exactly, but come on. And seriously, they had to use a satellite to find Sam and Dean...do tracking spells not work anymore either? 

2 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

I assume Sam never read The Hunger Games.  Would have given him everything he needed to know about running/hiding from attackers.

I bet Dean saw the movie, though? ;)

[Aeryn13]

For a Dabb-episode, it was okay-ish but certainly nothing special. Pretty boring, I thought.

Belittling Dean`s hell experience is almost a sport now, that is, if they even remember he went there. So of course six measly weeks in isolation are now "worse than hell".

It was also a stupid deal. They have other supernatural beings they could call first, namely Cas. Calling for Billie again was just so random. At least this time she asked for actual payment. Usually she comes, spouts the same sassy one-liners, helps anyway and then leaves. This time Cas fixed it by killing her. I don`t care one iota.

IMO the problem was that everything here was really super-small-potatoes but the story needed to play out like it was big, dramatic stuff. They were willing to make such a ridiculous deal for something as little as getting out of a government prison? After only six weeks? That stuff is all good and well for apocalypse scenarios but compared to that, I found this to be like a broken toenail. So the move with Billie looked like unnecessary hysterics.

Then their escape, it was supposed to be dramatic and bad-ass, I guess. And yet I saw a pretty incompetent team of soldiers very easily taken down. Like taking candy from a baby really.   

Brit!MOL were pretty unnecessary and Mary listening to them makes her seem like a huge idiot. 

Everything just seemed a big ado about nothing.

[Demented Daisy]

I keep forgetting to ask -- when the angels fell, were the Reapers already on earth, so they got to keep their wings?  I assume that's why Billie is able to teleport?

Speaking of Billie, didn't she teleport Dean inside the house in the Asa Fox episode?  Why couldn't she have done the same thing in this episode?  Except out, of course.  But then they wouldn't have to traipse through the woods, of course.

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Demented Daisy said:

I keep forgetting to ask -- when the angels fell, were the Reapers already on earth, so they got to keep their wings?  I assume that's why Billie is able to teleport?

Speaking of Billie, didn't she teleport Dean inside the house in the Asa Fox episode?  Why couldn't she have done the same thing in this episode?  Except out, of course.  But then they wouldn't have to traipse through the woods, of course.

Silly Demented One, you know logic and reason do not belong here. ;)

Don't even get me started on reaper lore. I guess they could've already been on earth when the angels fell, but I still prefer to think of them as a species unto themselves. So, that's my explanation for why Billie can teleport, reapers aren't angels. You only have to ignore one episode to make that work. But,, hey, I'm pretty sure the show ignored at least 10 episodes to make this one not work, so... . ;)

[Demented Daisy]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Silly Demented One, you know logic and reason do not belong here. ;)

True enough.  Because if it did, then I would have to wonder why Billie would agree to a deal that broke them both out, but postponed reaping one of them until midnight.  Giving them the opportunity to double cross her or find a way out.  

I really think they came up with the ending of the episode first and worked backwards from there.  Ignoring plot holes and canon in the process.

[DittyDotDot]

7 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

True enough.  Because if it did, then I would have to wonder why Billie would agree to a deal that broke them both out, but postponed reaping one of them until midnight.  Giving them the opportunity to double cross her or find a way out.  

Well, since she appeared to have made a deal with both of them, I'm still wondering why she wasn't getting two Winchesters? I know, it doesn't really matter since all they needed was a reason for Cass to kill her and he only needed one.