Envisioning What's Next: Speculation With Spoilers

[Cobalt Stargazer]

Since @Morrigan2575 suggested it, I decided to kick off a speculation thread. Hope this suits the mods. Insert theories, ideas, possibilities here.  🙂

[ProudMary]

@Cobalt Stargazer  Nice job on the thread title!

[swanpride]

Yeah, great thread title...

To start the discussions: I currently have three theories...one: Wanda has a mind break and Sword is trying to reach her. Two: Wanda tried to reach whatever is left of Vision on Shuri's computers and now doesn't want to leave vision again. Thee: Someone else is manipulating Wanda.

Or it is a combination of all three. Currently I am leaning towards one, maybe learning that she was pregnant of Vision caused the break.

[Guest]

@Cobalt Stargazer thanks for starting this thread and I love the title. 

I was rewatching the trailers and realized we can get an idea of pacing from the sitcoms eras.

Spoiler

There’s that clip with Monica and Wanda where Monica says she doesn’t know who she is and one where Monica goes flying and lands surrounded by SWORD. She has the same outfit on and it’s in The Brady Bunch house. I’m guessing Monica breaks through the spell and Wanda sends her flying out of Westview. If they stick with a decade an episode next week is going to be very interesting. 

 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Guest

[Morrigan2575]

Excellent thread title.

My first thought was Wanda went crazy with grief and this is the result.   However, I'm not sure the MCU would go that dark with Wanda or any of their characters. 

It would be really interesting to me if they did show Wanda losing it with her grief. She lost her parents at 10, her twin was killed a handful of years ago (from her perspective) and then she was forced to kill her love to save the universe only to have that ripped away and watch him die again. 

 

[swanpride]

In terms of trauma we have first the stark bomb which killed her parents, then the time with Hydra, then the realisation that she helped Ultron to destroy the world, then Pietro dying, than her accidentally killing all those people in Lagos (and for the record, not her fault, she most likely also rescued a lot of people in the process), than her time in the raft, and finally Vision dying. Not sure if getting snapped counts as another trauma.

[Sakura12]

I think they might go with someone befriending Wanda when she's at her lowest and manipulates her into creating this reality.

She falls deeper into because it gives her everything she wants, a happy life with Vision. While the other person is doing something to her. Katherine Hahn's character is definitely involved, she's there to make sure Wanda stays in this reality. She popped up to distract her from the Sword helicopter. Which Wanda or her turned into a toy. 

The rest of the neighbors are most likely Sword or Hydra agents (that's why there are no children) that tried to get her and ended up mind controlled or they captured her at one of their facilities and she took over that. 

[Kromm]

Here's my unified theory, inclusive of all we've seen till the end of Episode 2, but with far more speculation, far more extensive, than I posted in the Episode 2 thread. I wanted to construct a whole possible narrative, not just pick at parts of it.  So I've done just that.  Not little bits, but an attempt at pasting it all together. Big parts of which I'm sure may be quickly squashed a mere week from now by information from a new episode.

 

The events of Infinity War and Endgame have broken both Wanda Maximoff and any sense of safety the world has had about our place in the Universe.  A new global agency, S.W.O.R.D. is formed to monitor and protect the Earth from any seeming alien incursion.

Wanda however wants none of this.  She's no longer a fugitive, but wants none of the Avengers, none of any new mission or new agency. So she goes off on her own, losing herself in suburban America.  She settles, alone, in a small town, isolated and alone.  What Wanda doesn't realize is that what seemed like a random choice on a map was anything but.  She was drawn there intentionally.

With nothing to do with her life, she sits around doing what many of us do at such times--she Veges out.  Puttering with her Roses outside, sitting around and perhaps finally out of sheer dead-minded boredom watching TV.  She focuses on older TV, vintage sitcoms she's marginally already aware of as her European cliched pre-baked view of the American ideal.  Her sanity is already fragile, and this hardly helps.

She avoids contact with most people, but can't avoid encountering her pushy immediate neighbor Agnes.  There's something oddly edgy about Agnes, but Wanda shrugs it off, being barely functional and quite intense herself.  Agnes always seems to invite herself over, however little Wanda wants to deal with her, or anyone, and is always asking about why a single gal like Wanda wound up in this podunk town.   Agnes constantly refers to a husband, Ralph, who Wanda never sees--not that she'd really want to.  She just wants to be left alone.

One day, one of Agnes' unwanted visits coincides with the TV being on and one of those sitcoms airing.  Agnes asks why Wanda watches them since she doesn't seem to really enjoy them... or anything.  Wanda, half-absentmindedly, answers that it's because life is so predictable in them.  If anything bad DOES happen, it's solved in under a half hour. There's no real stress, no real angst, because fate is already written in them.  It's relaxing at the very least, even if it doesn't truly bring her any joy.

Agnes is all ears.  She replies... "What if life really COULD be that predictable?   What if you were granted the things you need, there was a simple script to follow, and that's all you really needed to be happy.  Any problem could be fixed in a half hour. Wouldn't that be a gas?"

Wanda shrugs and agrees it would be great.  Agnes follows up with "You should really talk with my husband Ralph. He's a real pain in my butt, but he does know a lot about things like this."  Wanda, half-dismissively and humoring Agnes, agrees.

The next night Wanda meets Ralph, who Agnes brings over for dinner.  He doesn't really seem like a Ralph though.  The three talk over dinner. Agnes jokes that Ralph is really good at tempting people to do things they otherwise wouldn't, after Ralph talks Agnes into a second helping of dessert.  Eventually Agnes recalls the discussion of the day before for Ralph, and he finds it intriguing.  He turns to Wanda and asks if she's tempted by the scenario.  She sighs, says she's lost so much in her life, of course she'd like life to be like a sitcom... but it's NOT.  Ralph says, "But what would you give if it really COULD be that simple?"  Wanda sighs again and says "Anything..."  Ralph smiles, and says "So be it!"

The next thing Wanda knows she's riding down a road in an old car sitting next to Vision.   She doesn't really know how she got there, but she doesn't really care.  Their new home comes in to sight, they pull in, and their new life begins.

What Wanda doesn't truly understand is that she's been tricked.  Her powers were formed by the use of Loki's Scepter, which contained The Mind Stone, which means she has a little bit of the essence of the Mind Stone inside her.  She's part of it and it's part of her, forever.  Even if it's elsewhere.  She didn't consciously agree to any bargain, but there was one nonetheless, and the power of the Mind Stone within her is being used to fuel the results.  The little town she barely knew has been transformed.  The sitcom life she envisioned, was nudged into envisioning, is happening at the cost of the freedom of the people around her.  She's doing it, and on some level is perfectly aware she is, but she's cracked the rest of the way.  She's no more aware if this is real or not than anyone else.

The Energy from this is detected in the outside world by S.W.O.R.D.   They know what the energy from the Infinity Stones is, and they know where Wanda settled, so they know she's involved in some fashion.  When they arrive at the town, it's surrounded by a powerful force field.   With enough persistence they CAN penetrate it, but it takes a major effort.  They're getting strange signals out of the town which clearly involve Wanda, which seem to indicate Wanda is in some kind of mock TV show.  

They start by sending in one agent, Monica Rambeau, who they quickly lose contact with.  Later attempts include trying to send a helicopter across, which they also lose contact with.  This is supplemented by attempts to communicate via radio, taking over the same frequency as the local radio station.  

So Wanda is both IN the delusion and controlling the delusion at the same time.  She didn't consciously agree to anything, but it was accepted as such.  The being in question drew her to this town to accomplish this, knowing Wanda was filled with the excess energy from The Mind Stone.  But this being doesn't just want to play a trick where Wanda enslaves a whole town via Mind Stone energy.  This being got her to agree to any price.  And payment will come due.  This being has already seen, already observed what ALL of the Infinity Stones can do in concert, when unified.  And believes Wanda can draw them all to that town to be collected.  That's why in the fake credits he constructs for the second episode of sitcoming, he can't help but taunt about his goal by placing all six stones in a circle around The Moon.  That's why every episode he's helping Wanda live ends in a pan-out to a six-sided figure, a hexagon.  He believes he can accomplish what Thanos didn't. In fact, Thanos' efforts were paltry.  Thanos foolishly believed he had to replace one reality with a different one.  This being, Mephisto, knows better.  He knows, as Dr. Strange and The Ancient also did, that multiple realities already exist.  The key is using the Infinity Stones to access all of them. To mix and match them with total freedom to get what he wants.  Wanda Maximoff is just a pawn to do so.

Note that the scripted nature is vital.  The people subsumed by the power of the Mind Stone regain some level of autonomy when the script is broken.  It can be simple fate--a man chokes for example, an involuntary reaction that can't always be predicted.  In that moment, his wife is able to redirect her pleas to her husband to "Stop it" towards Wanda instead. It's not clear if she realizes it's Wanda's power doing this or not, but being able to at least nuance the words, if not actually change them, her eyes beg Wanda.  The break in the script can also be from the outside.  A helicopter trying to enter the airspace is reconstructed as a toy.  It's all in people's heads anyway, so what really happened to that helicopter remains a mystery.  But we hear the helicopter's rotors, quite clearly, at one point.

A radio signal gets through, startling Wanda and her seemingly nasty neighbor Dottie.  Another inch of freedom leads to Dottie cutting herself.  The shock of the blood pries open Dottie's mouth, her true thoughts. even a bit more.  But the delusion, quite likely with an unconscious assist from Wanda herself, goes back to script thereafter.

And so on.  Entire new outsiders, like Monica, are subsumed. Even her natural name is erased.  And if a man in a protective suit appears?  Rewind.  That's all on Wanda, undeniably.  There isn't even a hint of Mephisto needing to steer that one. 

Edited January 17, 2021 by Kromm

[Cobalt Stargazer]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

The rest of the neighbors are most likely Sword or Hydra agents (that's why there are no children) that tried to get her and ended up mind controlled or they captured her at one of their facilities and she took over that. 

Would there be Hydra agents at this point? At least organized ones, like a cell? Even if they didn't root out all of the corruption post-Winter Soldier, Hydra itself went down with SHIELD, so there's probably just fragments left. I could actually see a plot like that, a radical shard of the old organization targeting Wanda, if only because that's how she came into the game to begin with, as one of Strucker's prized pupils.

So if Agnes is Hydra or what's left of Hydra, then maybe Dottie is too? They might have tried to infiltrate the delusion together and then got caught up in it instead, so the introduction to Dottie in the second episode could be another attempt to break the fourth wall of the construct. Because Agnes behaved as if she knew Dottie quite well, but Wanda had no idea of who she is.

[Kromm]

16 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

Would there be Hydra agents at this point? At least organized ones, like a cell? Even if they didn't root out all of the corruption post-Winter Soldier, Hydra itself went down with SHIELD, so there's probably just fragments left. I could actually see a plot like that, a radical shard of the old organization targeting Wanda, if only because that's how she came into the game to begin with, as one of Strucker's prized pupils.

So if Agnes is Hydra or what's left of Hydra, then maybe Dottie is too? They might have tried to infiltrate the delusion together and then got caught up in it instead, so the introduction to Dottie in the second episode could be another attempt to break the fourth wall of the construct. Because Agnes behaved as if she knew Dottie quite well, but Wanda had no idea of who she is.

At this point, I'm leaning towards thinking that any reference to HYDRA is the same as any reference to Stark Industries.  Keys to Wanda's past.  This is all coming out of her mind.  I don't think it's necessary that any real HYDRA agents actually are present.  The first commercial was figuratively the backstory of Wanda's beginnings, of Stark Industries and their munitions killing her parents.  The second commercial was figuratively the backstory of Wanda and Pietro being tricked by HYDRA, by Strucker specifically, into being experimented on.  I don't think there's any greater connection than that.

I see Dottie as a pawn  Like Mrs. Heart before her, when she's able to speak at least partially off-sitcom script, she's more terrified than anything else.  Anything villainous about her is scripted, and since it's a sitcom is half misunderstanding, half cliche anyway.

Agnes is the main candidate for having more of an agenda.  My whole narrative speculation upthread buys into that notion.  But I don't see HYDRA there. The Devil is in the details.  Even so, even if Agnes is part of monitoring Wanda, I have at least a suspicion that she too could ultimately be a victim.  If Wanda got tricked into a deal, as I speculate, perhaps Agnes herself did at some earlier point. 

I'd say Agnes knows Dottie because the script SAYS she knows Dottie.  After all, they know Geraldine too, even though we have some reason to believe that Geraldine may not have previously existed in this town.  But she got scripted in.

[swanpride]

I don't see Hydra either. Whatever is going on, it is not Hydra. There are clear references to Sword, but we don't even know what shape exactly Sword has in this universe and if its role is the same as in the comics.

[Featherhat]

Assuming Woo and Darcy (and maybe Monica?) are working with SWORD I then further assume they're at least supposed to be a "good" organisation like SHIELD pre TWS. Then they'll pop up for The Eternals, DS2, Captain Marvel 2, Ms Marvel, LOKI and whatever else in Phase Four. Granted that's a lot of assumptions.  

I think Wanda is stopped from questioning things a little too much by Agnes among other zany antics for this to be *Just* about her madness and grief after Vision. Every time she questions the very fragile world she's dragged back in. But she also can clearly manipulate certain events and might also be stopping herself from remembering. Something/one has either got to be using her grief for its own ends or out and out holding her captive by having her create a reality she desperately wants to be true. Like every genre show ever. How far one way or the other remains to be seen.

Katharine Hahn is of course awesome but it almost seems a little too obvious for her to be the main villain. Or is it just "obvious" to people who discuss TV/MCU to death and everyone else will be shocked that the wacky neighbour is evil? She definitely in the know somehow at least. And KH can switch from wacky to menacing in a heartbeat. 

We're doing this "for the Children" likewise. To save her twins? For Wanda to create them for herself or to find Vision or for the benefit of the Big Bad against her will? 

"The Devil's in the details" came across too fake-jolly intense for it to be a clue for Wanda to discover that she's locked *herself* in her own head of half remembered American sitcoms. 

[Sakura12]

Wanda wouldn't know Dottie since she just moved into the neighborhood. Agnes is supposed to have been there so she would know the Queen B of the neighbors. I think Geraldine is the newest member. Maybe she was on the helicopter that crashed into the bushes. 

 

[Morrigan2575]

I'm thinking that was a real Helicopter and Wanda turned it into a toy. I think Wanda is so protective of this dream world with Vision she doesn't realize what she's doing to reality.

It would explain how Geraldine just showed up and didn't seem very confused about everything. Did Geraldine interact with anyone outside of Wanda? I know Dottie called attention to "them" when Wanda/Geraldine were talking but, I wonder if it was more addressed to Wanda and Geraldine being a real person wasn't seen by the others?

Edited January 17, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[swanpride]

I think that all the bee references and Honeycomb patterns have some meaning. Not quite sure what just yet, though.

[Kromm]

21 minutes ago, swanpride said:

I think that all the bee references and Honeycomb patterns have some meaning. Not quite sure what just yet, though.

Beekeeper outfit usually implies AIM, a different evil organization than HYDRA in Marvel comics.  That said, they don't usually have SWORD logos on them. So... maybe it's just an environmental suit and the bees just got picked in the sewer. 

The Hexagons the episodes end on could represent a Honeycomb, except they could also represent the Infinity Stones. To be clear, the Stones themselves don't precisely look like Hexagons, but there are six of them, like sides of a Hexagon. Plus several (but not all) of the Infinity Gauntlet mounts for the Stones are Hexagons. Notably though... not the one for the Mind Stone. 

The lights around the Moon in the Bewitched type credits definitely ARE simply the Infinity Stones though, and they didn't bother making a hex shape. It's just a circle. 

So, errr... maybe. Maybe AIM or bees or honeycombs or something are linked. Or not. Who knows? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I'm thinking that was a real Helicopter and Wanda turned it into a toy. I think Wanda is so protective of this dream world with Vision she doesn't realize what she's doing to reality.

Could be but I’m thinking it might just be an automatic result of something entering that world. Where anything that comes in is automatically integrated into the scenario. The helicopter also had Ironman’s paint job. That could just be an Easter egg but it’s interesting. 

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

It would explain how Geraldine just showed up and didn't seem very confused about everything.

I thought she seemed confused by everything. She even seemed uncertain of her own name. 

1 hour ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Did Geraldine interact with anyone outside of Wanda? I know Dottie called attention to "them" when Wanda/Geraldine were talking but, I wonder if it was more addressed to Wanda and Geraldine being a real person wasn't seen by the others?

Geraldine was seen by the others or the final magic “trick” wouldn’t have worked. 

[Morrigan2575]

22 minutes ago, Dani said:

I thought she seemed confused by everything. She even seemed uncertain of her own name. 

Yeah, that was a typo. I meant she seemed confused about being there. Oops 😊

23 minutes ago, Dani said:

Geraldine was seen by the others or the final magic “trick” wouldn’t have worked. 

Thanks, I admit I didn't pay close attention during the magic show

[Kel Varnsen]

I feel like I have seen this kind of story but I am wondering if the whole thing is going on inside Wanda's mind and by using her mind and her powers to create that world she is actually causing damage to the real world. Maybe the real world people ( like Sword who I don't think I ever read any comics about) are slowly trying to ease her back into things to keep her from causing more damage.

[ProudMary]

That is undoubtedly the mind stone that appears on the large magician's disappearing trick box. (Photo attached here.) How it fits in or if it has anything to do with Wanda's mention of "my husband's indestructible head," (Ep. 1) I'm not sure, but it is somehow playing a part here. Wanda's powers are derived from the mind stone and Vision's (initial) creation was enabled by it. It's important to this story. I'm with @Kromm. The Infinity Stones are at play here in some manner. I also noticed the six stones around the moon in the Bewitched-styled opening credits for Episode 2; and of course there are numerous hexagons throughout. We've already seen Wanda turn back time and even though it seems to be at the direction of someone else, she's warping reality.
 

[swanpride]

Frankly, all the hexagons remind me of this cell AoS had for new Inhumans until they got used to their powers. But since the main MCU refuses to acknowledge AoS, that is most likely just a coincidence.

There are certainly hidden references to the Infinity stones, but they might not be directly related to what is happening to Wanda and more a symbol of her biggest trauma and the origin of her powers.

[whiporee]

I like the idea of all of this being in Wanda's head because I'm a comics person and I know how fucked up Wanda is. But she doesn't exist in the MCU enough for non-comics people to know that. Same thing with Mephisto and the vanishing twins. There's just not enough backstory to show her being broken to this extent. And even her relationship with Vision was short-lived; I think they said it had been about six moths when Infinity War broke out.  

And it's a TV show, so there's got to be a bad guy. I'm betting SWORD (being an offshoot of SHEILD and HYDRA) has her in captivity and is either drugging her to keep her from ruining the world or are doing tests on her ability to create reality. At this point, there are only two stones left, right? The one reborn Loki stole and they parts of one that are inside Wanda (and I guess the stuff that's inside Carol, too). I could see the remnants of the other stones starting to swarm around her (like bees) because like attracts like. 

I prefer Kromm's version, but I don't think there's been enough investment in Wanda to make her breakdown the central part of the this series. 

[Kromm]

See, I don't think this is IN her head, as several have speculated. It's FROM her head. That's different. 

It gets back to a key power of the Mind Stone being mind control. And in the brief moments of being freed from the script, characters acting independently.  That makes no sense if this is just in Wanda's head.  

What this is would be a shared delusion, projected by Wanda's powers onto the real world. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, whiporee said:

At this point, there are only two stones left, right? The one reborn Loki stole and they parts of one that are inside Wanda (and I guess the stuff that's inside Carol, too). I could see the remnants of the other stones starting to swarm around her (like bees) because like attracts like. 

As far as we know none of the stone’s exist physically at this point. The Loki stole is in another timeline. The energy of all of them should still exists and some of it is in Wanda and Carol. I like your theory. All the stones coming together would be a massive plot for the show so I’m leaning more to it just being the mind stone involved. With the other stones being handled in other projects. 

[Kel Varnsen]

17 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Vision's (initial) creation was enabled by it. I

Vision has extra weird magic mojo since he was created using the mind stone and the powers of Mjolnir.

 

3 hours ago, whiporee said:

Same thing with Mephisto and the vanishing twins. There's just not enough backstory to show her being broken to this extent.

There is no Mephisto in the MCU but there is Dormammu and is there really that much difference between Marvel comics devils?

[tkc]

Wild speculation:

If S.W.O.R.D. is the agency that deals with extraterrestrial threats, perhaps the reason for the advancing sitcom timelines is because the ETs have been receiving broadcast TV signals originating from Earth for the last 70 years or so, and the ETs are using what appear to them to be "normal" Earth family circumstances in their mind-based pacifying attacks on Wanda. These settings start with the first (oldest) broadcasts and are working up to more recent ones.

Subconsciously, Wanda is fighting back, and we the viewers are seeing the breakdowns in the illusory world as well as the attempts of S.W.O.R.D. to break through to a mostly incapacitated Wanda in the "real" world.

Also:

Anyone else notice that Agnes' brooch is coming along for the ride between sitcom eras? Could it be something that is integral to maintaining the illusion?

Edited January 19, 2021 by tkc

[Kel Varnsen]

I watched this tonight with my wife because we were out of shows and couldn't find anything else. I wasn't sure if I would like it but we both really did. Plus it confirmed once again that Paul Feig should only direct R rated movies.

It was also fun watching how every time Stephanie made a video her number of subscribers jumped significantly.

[whiporee]

5 hours ago, Kromm said:

See, I don't think this is IN her head, as several have speculated. It's FROM her head. That's different. 

It gets back to a key power of the Mind Stone being mind control. And in the brief moments of being freed from the script, characters acting independently.  That makes no sense if this is just in Wanda's head.  

What this is would be a shared delusion, projected by Wanda's powers onto the real world. 

 

I mis-stated what you were saying, and I really do like the premise. I just don't think we've got enough time or effort invested in Wanda to have her breakdown be the central villain of this thing. If we'd been seeing cracks all along, or seeing her struggle with her powers, or just spent more than passing time with her it could work really well. We just haven't logged enough time for that breakdown to have the impact it needs in the MCU. Obviously we've seen it happen a bunch of times in the regular Marvel universe. 

Off the topic but sort of crucial, the Scarlet Witch is the perfect example of why you should really define powers at the outset for a character. From her first appearance, what Wanda could and couldn't do has never been very well defined, and as a result she's always been powerful, but her power was so vague that it meant nothing. From a power standpoint, she'd be more powerful than Phoenix, wouldn't she? Certainly more powerful than Thanos -- maybe up there with Galactus. Maybe Proteus would be closest to her reality-altering abilities, but you simply can't have a hero that powerful. Takes away all dramatic tension. The had to kill Phoenix because it was too much (at least they killed her the first time) but they keep letting Wanda come back. One of the great lines in DisAssembled and in Prelude to Civil War was the question of how many times do you let this happen. You keep putting Hulks on the team and act surprised. At what point does Spider-man bare responsibility for the carnage Green Goblin causes. "How many people, Joker, have I killed by letting you live?" Batman asks in Dark Night Returns. So if they get into Wanda's reality-altering powers in the MCU, I think it opens up quite the problem. 

Right now, Wanda's basically Marvel Girl, right? Maybe Marvel Girl in the green miniskirt. I think that's a decent place for her. If they get into the reality altering stuff, it's just too much, too hard to explain, too easy to give her the ability to fix anything. Thats why I hope this is less than it appears, because the option of it being more expands her powers too broadly and too bigly for the universe they've created. 

[ProudMary]

4 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

There is no Mephisto in the MCU but there is Dormammu and is there really that much difference between Marvel comics devils?

Just because to date, there has been no Mephisto in the MCU, doesn't mean he can't be introduced here in WandaVision, which is where I think we may very well be going. 

11 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I mis-stated what you were saying, and I really do like the premise. I just don't think we've got enough time or effort invested in Wanda to have her breakdown be the central villain of this thing. If we'd been seeing cracks all along, or seeing her struggle with her powers, or just spent more than passing time with her it could work really well. We just haven't logged enough time for that breakdown to have the impact it needs in the MCU. Obviously we've seen it happen a bunch of times in the regular Marvel universe. 

Off the topic but sort of crucial, the Scarlet Witch is the perfect example of why you should really define powers at the outset for a character. From her first appearance, what Wanda could and couldn't do has never been very well defined, and as a result she's always been powerful, but her power was so vague that it meant nothing. From a power standpoint, she'd be more powerful than Phoenix, wouldn't she? Certainly more powerful than Thanos -- maybe up there with Galactus. Maybe Proteus would be closest to her reality-altering abilities, but you simply can't have a hero that powerful. Takes away all dramatic tension. The had to kill Phoenix because it was too much (at least they killed her the first time) but they keep letting Wanda come back. One of the great lines in DisAssembled and in Prelude to Civil War was the question of how many times do you let this happen. You keep putting Hulks on the team and act surprised. At what point does Spider-man bare responsibility for the carnage Green Goblin causes. "How many people, Joker, have I killed by letting you live?" Batman asks in Dark Night Returns. So if they get into Wanda's reality-altering powers in the MCU, I think it opens up quite the problem. 

Right now, Wanda's basically Marvel Girl, right? Maybe Marvel Girl in the green miniskirt. I think that's a decent place for her. If they get into the reality altering stuff, it's just too much, too hard to explain, too easy to give her the ability to fix anything. Thats why I hope this is less than it appears, because the option of it being more expands her powers too broadly and too bigly for the universe they've created. 

I'd have to agree with you regarding the first part I bolded, but in fairness, Disney/Marvel had its hands tied because they couldn't go the true route of Wanda being a mutant because Fox still owned the rights to the X-Men franchise. I don't recall exactly what the Fox-Marvel deal was for Scarlet Witch. I remember they only had Quicksilver for one film, which is why they had to kill him off in Age of Ultron, but I don't think Marvel "owned" Scarlet Witch outright either. They may still have had some restrictions on her use and may have been hesitant to elevate her above a secondary character. Once Disney acquired Fox, they were able to begin to showcase her powers. 

These new Disney+ MCU series are story and character development tools for the films. We know that Wanda is going to play a huge role in Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness, which sounds as if it's going to be a wild ride. I think Marvel is setting the stage in this show for Scarlet Witch's heavy-duty reality altering stuff we can expect to see in Doctor Strange 2.

JMO.

[swanpride]

I think the agreement was basically that Fox would get Quicksilver and Marvel would get Wanda, since both characters were kind of in the limbo between the different groups, being both Mutants and Avengers.

Otherwise I think the reason why they took their time with Wanda's power is simply that she is too powerful otherwise. Hence they went the "she is getting stronger over time" route.

[Cobalt Stargazer]

10 minutes ago, whiporee said:

I mis-stated what you were saying, and I really do like the premise. I just don't think we've got enough time or effort invested in Wanda to have her breakdown be the central villain of this thing. If we'd been seeing cracks all along, or seeing her struggle with her powers, or just spent more than passing time with her it could work really well. We just haven't logged enough time for that breakdown to have the impact it needs in the MCU. Obviously we've seen it happen a bunch of times in the regular Marvel universe.

Speak for yourself. 🙂

As someone who immediately took to Wanda when she appeared in AoU, I can say there was quite a bit of talk about her place post-film, since she was made part of the Avengers without what some consider "due punishment". At the time, her backstory was that she (and her brother) were traumatized children who were orphaned at a young age and either left to fend for themselves as best they could or shipped off to relatives who didn't know how to handle them. That's never confirmed. We do know that they both volunteered for Hydra's experiments, but again, they were kids with no resources in a deprived country who had a grudge. "We're not at war, Captain." "They are."

If you're talking about from a fandom perspective, the best comparison would be Loki, who spent eighty percent of his screen time being pissy because Odin loved Thor more than him. Loki's died, what, four or five times now? But he keeps coming back because he's popular, though I admit to not grasping the why of it. But I digress. There's also Carol Danvers, who can take down an entire warship by herself but was absent for most of Endgame, maybe or maybe not for the same reasons Wanda was not actually on the battlefield during Infinity War. "What was she doing up there all this time?"

If the legal issues of keeping both twins hadn't gotten in the way, we'd have been able to see Wanda actually deal with the loss of her brother, because it is glaring that she never mentions him again after AoU. There was a joke after the movie hit theaters that Pietro wasn't killed by those bullets but a team of lawyers, and to that extent you're right about her being shortchanged. In some ways, their grudge against Tony Stark and the others cost Pietro his life and Wanda the one person she'd been able to count on before Vision came along. And this is where casting is so important, because I think Elizabeth Olsen does a damned fine job of portraying the hints of Wanda's instability even when she's not in the throes  of a breakdown.

[swanpride]

..That is NOT Loki's story. Loki's story is that he spend his whole life wanting the approval of his father only to realise that his father isn't actually his father and that he himself is part of a race he was taught his whole life was inferior. He is suffering under internalized racism, not just under jealously. And that is btw the reason why he is popular, because it is easy to understand what kind of shock this is (not that this excuses anything).

 

I agree though that Elizabeth Olson does an excellent job portraying Wanda's mental pain.

[arc]

I just watched this featurette about the show (warning for the spoiler averse, there are very brief glimpses of a few moments yet unaired as of now). But what struck me about the “making of” part of it was that the live sitcom audience seemed to be dressed in period costume. If that’s the case, then maybe the audience is actually all extras because the show will break the fourth wall, kinda like that classic moment in the Fresh Prince when Carlton freaks out and runs through every set and the actual audience.

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Just because to date, there has been no Mephisto in the MCU, doesn't mean he can't be introduced here in WandaVision, which is where I think we may very well be going. 

Of course they could introduce him, I was just thinking they already have one devil (well two since Surtur looks like a devil) although if any company could introduce another and make them distinct it would be Marvel.

8 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

There was a joke after the movie hit theaters that Pietro wasn't killed by those bullets but a team of lawyers, and to that extent you're right about her being shortchanged. In some ways, their grudge against Tony Stark and the others cost Pietro his life and Wanda the one person she'd been able to count on before Vision came along.

I am honestly starting to wonder if Peitro will be back in this show. Age of Ultron only came out like 5 and a half years ago so I wonder if he is still under one of those long term Marvel contracts.

[Kromm]

19 hours ago, arc said:

I just watched this featurette about the show (warning for the spoiler averse, there are very brief glimpses of a few moments yet unaired as of now). But what struck me about the “making of” part of it was that the live sitcom audience seemed to be dressed in period costume. If that’s the case, then maybe the audience is actually all extras because the show will break the fourth wall, kinda like that classic moment in the Fresh Prince when Carlton freaks out and runs through every set and the actual audience.

Yes, my guess had been that they were dressed that way because some coverage shots were taken of the audience in case when editing they decided to do an audience reveal/4th wall break, and they simply decided to not use that footage. It would have strengthened instantly identifying they're stuck acting out a sitcom, but weakened the much speculated idea that this is a real town with real people who have been enslaved by this (assuming that turns out to be true). That audience is probably real people though, non-actors, although I guess Extras can really be either.

13 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

I am honestly starting to wonder if Peitro will be back in this show. Age of Ultron only came out like 5 and a half years ago so I wonder if he is still under one of those long term Marvel contracts.

I think it's been one of two HUGE weaknesses so far that he hasn't at least been mentioned, if not shown. I know there's a ton of doubt on if Wanda is the hero or villain here, but it seems awfully cold that in a reconstructed reality, she's imagined her dead robot lover AND fake kids, but not her brother at all.  There may turn out to be a reason for that, so... I hope we get a rationale. 

The other weakness is a lack of true recognition of her accent change. They alluded to it with the "from Europe" stuff, but there was room for a possible joke with her speaking briefly in the fictional Sokovian language, thus acknowledging the accent without forcing her to actually use it when speaking English. 

[arc]

4 hours ago, Kromm said:

Yes, my guess had been that they were dressed that way because some coverage shots were taken of the audience in case when editing they decided to do an audience reveal/4th wall break, and they simply decided to not use that footage.

Maybe but then why haven’t there been any interviews with the real life audience members? Because that stuff is still embargoed/NDA’ed because it might come back.

seriously though, it would be such a shame if the show itself never goes back to the 1950s and 1960s sets but in full color as it was when shooting them.

(help me, I love metafiction in general but I don’t have the vocabulary to specify which level of “reality” I’m talking about with this show.)

[ProudMary]

17 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Of course they could introduce him, I was just thinking they already have one devil (well two since Surtur looks like a devil) although if any company could introduce another and make them distinct it would be Marvel.

I am honestly starting to wonder if Peitro will be back in this show. Age of Ultron only came out like 5 and a half years ago so I wonder if he is still under one of those long term Marvel contracts.

I've been hoping for an appearance by the MCU's Pietro. I'm in the minority that actually preferred Aaron Taylor-Johnson's Quicksilver to the Evan Peters X-Men version. 

[swanpride]

I belong to the same minority.

[Kromm]

10 hours ago, arc said:

Maybe but then why haven’t there been any interviews with the real life audience members? Because that stuff is still embargoed/NDA’ed because it might come back.

Embargos expire.  NDAs usually don't. Those people would have to be specifically informed they can talk, and that won't happen because Marvel isn't going to disclose a road not taken in their end product while it's still airing. It doesn't really mean it might still be used. It just means putting it out there now would probably be an unnecessary distraction. 

Besides, when have you actually seen audience members interviewed for a TV show? The possible plot point that they might have under other circumstances been vaguely acknowledged on screen isn't enough in of itself to point Entertainment reporters their way. As for just allowing them to Tweet/Facebook/Blog/YouTube about it? I don't see Marvel seeing any value in letting them do so. The show has more than enough publicity. So why would they invalidate the NDA? 

Edited January 20, 2021 by Kromm

[johntfs]

16 hours ago, Kromm said:

I think it's been one of two HUGE weaknesses so far that he hasn't at least been mentioned, if not shown. I know there's a ton of doubt on if Wanda is the hero or villain here, but it seems awfully cold that in a reconstructed reality, she's imagined her dead robot lover AND fake kids, but not her brother at all.  There may turn out to be a reason for that, so... I hope we get a rationale. 

The other weakness is a lack of true recognition of her accent change. They alluded to it with the "from Europe" stuff, but there was room for a possible joke with her speaking briefly in the fictional Sokovian language, thus acknowledging the accent without forcing her to actually use it when speaking English. 

Going by the "commercials" he might not have come up yet.  The first commercial was Stark's bomb.  The second was HYDRA.  We haven't seen the third one yet.  Beyond that one reason we might not see her brother is that she's grieved and moved on from his death - likely with help from her newfound "family" the Avengers.

Not so this time.  She had to kill Vision and then watch as Thanos "resurrected" him only to kill him again.  Then she got snapped.  When Hulk Unsnapped the Snap, she came back as though no time had passed.  It's why she's so filled with rage when she confronts Thanos in Endgame.  Her grief is fresh and raw.  Thanos is defeated and Endgame ends.

It's been a good while so I can't remember exactly, but let's consider the Avnegers roster from Age of Ultron to Infinity War.

Iron Man, Captain America, Black Widow, Thor, Hawkeye, Falcon along with herself and Vision (Hulk/Banner left the team right after Age of Ultron and didn't return until the beginning of Infinity War).  Of the above listed, three are dead, Vision, Black Widow and Iron Man.  Captain America is an extremely old man who well be dead now, too.  Hawkeye retired to be with his family.  Thor joined the Guardians of the Galaxy.  Falcon is presumably busy doing whatever he's doing with the Winter Soldier.  Which means that the family, the support system that helped Wanda deal with her grief for her brother is gone, dead or just off doing their own things.  So she's alone.  With her crushing grief and guilt for Vision's death.

One other thing to consider is that Wanda was in very close proximity to all of the Infinity stones when she was killing Vision.  At one point she actually split her powers, focusing one on beam the Mind Stone to destroy and the other on Thanos for keep him back.  And she did keep Thanos back despite him having the other five stones.  It's possible that in doing that she absorbed some of their power.  That's why she can now alter reality and rewind time.

So we have n already very powerful person (there's reason Tony made the crack about "issuing hall passes (or whatever) to weapons of mass destruction") who became even more powerful due to the Stones.  And she's lost in grief and guilt with none of her previous support system to help her find her way back.  So when Wanda starts day-dreaming/fantasizing about a "happy ending" with Vision, she subconsciously uses her powers to make that fantasy real.

In terms of Wanda's accent, she's altered herself some within her fantasy because she wants to "fit in."

 

Edited January 20, 2021 by johntfs

[arc]

The creators have said that this show isn’t broadly an homage to all classic sitcoms so much as specifically classic family sitcoms. I hope there’s some way to do a season two that plays on classic workplace sitcoms.

[swanpride]

Depending on the backstory to this, this might not be possible. Plus, for a workplace sitcom, you better use another property. Like Damage Control.

[Morrigan2575]

On 1/20/2021 at 2:33 AM, ProudMary said:

I've been hoping for an appearance by the MCU's Pietro. I'm in the minority that actually preferred Aaron Taylor-Johnson's Quicksilver to the Evan Peters X-Men version. 

Are we the minority? MCU Pietro was so much better 😂

[swanpride]

A lot of people were really impressed by the time in the bottle scene (which was great, don't get me wrong here). I am not sure how many people look past this scene at the actual character. I like MCU Pietro better because his attitude is partly explained by his past and tempered through the love for his sister. I think Fox wins by the portrayal of this particular power (though they kind of wrote themselves into a corner by making him too powerful), but the MCU wins in character writing.

Something I noticed upon rewatch: In the first intro when Wanda and Vision enter town, the first person they see is the mail man who waves them. Which makes me think that he is more important than he seems to be, though he could also be a red herring, because just one shot later when WandaVision near their new home, some random guy with a briefcase walks down the street behind the mail man.

[johntfs]

6 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Are we the minority? MCU Pietro was so much better 😂

On the other hand I could see Evan Peters as Mephisto as Qucksilver, because Peters was one creepy bastard (in various incarnations) on American Horror Story. 

I admit I'm really looking forward to the commercial for Episode 6 or 7.  I'm hoping it's something like: With the Purple Power of Titan Cleanser, wiping out germs and stains will be a Snap!  Cue a logo with Thanos doing the Mr. Clean pose.

[arc]

12 hours ago, swanpride said:

Depending on the backstory to this, this might not be possible. Plus, for a workplace sitcom, you better use another property. Like Damage Control.

Damage Control is a already workplace sitcom on its own. And, while Wanda and Vision are a family, they’re also co-workers at the Avengers. Most of all though, I kinda doubt Marvel would want to do two separate deeply meta fictional shows.

[Featherhat]

Ok So Episode 3 raises more questions about Agnes. In 1 and 2 it seemed like she was deliberately there to make sure Wanda didn't start questioning things too much and she was fully in the know. In episode 3 she clearly doesn't let Herb tell Vision what's really going on and seems concerned about "Geraldine" and her being with Wanda, but maybe with a touch of fear. 

Looking back at the first trailer we see Katherine Hahn in a car wearing a (Halloween?) witches hat and she seems to think she's dead because she sees Vision and knows he's supposed to be. And in the second trailer she asks "are you here to help us?" So whilst I think she's involved because Ralph is going to be hela involved. She's more than some random woman who was dragged in, probably part of the coven but not the mastermind. Still Agatha Harkness?

We also see a shot of Geraldine being "sent home" across a field by Wanda instead of her just falling through the physical/magic/energy barrier at the end. And the second trailer did make it clear that Monica didn't know who she was, just that Pietro seemed to trigger a memory. 

There's also "this is our home" "then lets fight for it" between WandaVision that I don't think would happen if Wanda was going to turn out to be behind everything in a "she's a villain/antagonist for phase 4" way. Maybe in a Tony Stark with Ultron/Civil War way with whatever happens because of her grief and fear creations.

And holy mind stone, not that it's surprising but I didn't register that it was so prominent at the end of trailer 2. 

[Kromm]

17 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

In episode 3 she clearly doesn't let Herb tell Vision what's really going on and seems concerned about "Geraldine" and her being with Wanda, but maybe with a touch of fear. 

Yeah I noticed that. I read reactions from people who though Herb was the menacing one there... but it was really Agnes. 

Edited January 22, 2021 by Kromm

[swanpride]

I was kind of surprised that we are still on Hydra, but maybe they just need to spread out Wanda's various trauma a little bit more. I was also missing the ticking in the commercial.

Thus said, next week I fully expect a running shoe commercial...so 1980s, and so Pietro.

 

 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

Looking back at the first trailer we see Katherine Hahn in a car wearing a (Halloween?) witches hat and she seems to think she's dead because she sees Vision and knows he's supposed to be. And in the second trailer she asks "are you here to help us?" So whilst I think she's involved because Ralph is going to be hela involved. She's more than some random woman who was dragged in, probably part of the coven but not the mastermind. Still Agatha Harkness?

That’s been my guess. My main question is how aware she is. 

28 minutes ago, Featherhat said:

We also see a shot of Geraldine being "sent home" across a field by Wanda instead of her just falling through the physical/magic/energy barrier at the end. And the second trailer did make it clear that Monica didn't know who she was, just that Pietro seemed to trigger a memory. 

 

I wouldn’t trust the trailers. I do think the show itself suggests Monica didn’t know until it was triggered. Mainly because she did a bad job covering for herself.