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Envisioning What's Next: Speculation With Spoilers


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I'm beginning to think the promos were foilers. Stuff that was CLOSE, but not the same. I have a feeling the moment with Anges and Vision at the car won't play out the same as the promos, anymore than the moment with Wanda and Monica did. 

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Note Agnes' returning brooch. 

It contains three figures. Witches in groups of three is a key mythological thing. ESPECIALLY in Shakespeare, who baby Billy was named after. 

Someone else reminded me that a Hexagon is LITERALLY part of the AIM logo in the comics. Added to the Beekeeper suit from last episode, we have situations where AIM stuff is being superimposed over SWORD stuff.  Go back and look at Geraldine/Monica's earrings. Hexagons. In the comics AIM are bad guys. Sometimes competition with HYDRA, sometimes a linked organization. But SWORD is not. Theyre linked, sort of, to SHIELD. So there's all kinds of symbol mixing going on here. 

For all my speculation on Herb's possible complicity, and Agnes leaning on him, it didn't escape me that Herb was metaphorically trying to escape by cutting that wall. 

Edited by Kromm
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11 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Go back and look at Geraldine/Monica's earrings. Hexagons.

They were octagons. I only noticed because I thought they were hexagons at first. 

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Wanda's look for the 1980s drives me crazy...I could have sworn I have seen it before, but I can't place it. Maybe something Alyssa Milano wore at one point in Who's the Boss? Or a Kimmy Gibbler look? They certainly borrowed from Full House....

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4 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Wanda's look for the 1980s drives me crazy...I could have sworn I have seen it before, but I can't place it. Maybe something Alyssa Milano wore at one point in Who's the Boss? Or a Kimmy Gibbler look? They certainly borrowed from Full House....

It reminds me of something Jennifer Keaton would wear. The house and Vision look comes from Family Ties. 

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In the new episode thread, @Amethyst said:

Although Wanda does have control over the simulation (or it appears she does) she doesn't have control over the outside forces making their way in.  Or Vision.  She can only erase/rewind so much before he catches on.

I'm not sure about that. Because Vision himself is a construct within the construct. Even if Agnes and Geraldine and Herb and Dottie are all real, Vision isn't, because Wanda killed him and then Thanos killed him again. Even if he exists in the reality she's created here, can he be entirely independent of her when he's only 'alive' because she made him that way?

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17 minutes ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

I'm not sure about that. Because Vision himself is a construct within the construct. Even if Agnes and Geraldine and Herb and Dottie are all real, Vision isn't, because Wanda killed him and then Thanos killed him again. Even if he exists in the reality she's created here, can he be entirely independent of her when he's only 'alive' because she made him that way?

We really don’t know if Vision is just a construct. With the background of the other Marvel movies there are a lot more possibilities than him just being a creation of Wanda. His body still exists, whatever Shuri did to map his mind still exists and the device that built his body still exists. The mind stone his gone but Infinity War established the possibility that Vision can exist without the stone. 

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2 hours ago, Kromm said:

Someone else reminded me that a Hexagon is LITERALLY part of the AIM logo in the comics.

Given AIM’s background what do you think of the possibility that AIM was doing research on Vision’s body? 

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Okay so instead of Hydra, the neighbors are probably a mix of AIM and Sword agents. Geraldine got in somehow but the Aim beekeeper did not. 

I'm thinking "Geraldine" did get mind warped then remembered when Wanda mentioned her twin. Then she was probably still confused and did a bad job covering. I hope we do see the real world next week. 

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1 hour ago, Dani said:

We really don’t know if Vision is just a construct. With the background of the other Marvel movies there are a lot more possibilities than him just being a creation of Wanda. His body still exists, whatever Shuri did to map his mind still exists and the device that built his body still exists. The mind stone his gone but Infinity War established the possibility that Vision can exist without the stone. 

I keep thinking he must be more than a construct. We've seen him question things both with Wanda (which theoretically *could* be her questioning things in her own mind) and on his own with other characters, even in ep 1 when he asked WTF the company does (which I think might also come in to play). That's what gets me. he has an inner life beyond the zany. Now as you say there are plenty of ways that he can sort of exist and/or have some form of consciousness somehow without Vision being alive as he was before IW. 

Herb's "catch you you on the flip side, Vision!" just struck me as really poignant 

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4 hours ago, Cobalt Stargazer said:

In the new episode thread, @Amethyst said:
 

 

I'm not sure about that. Because Vision himself is a construct within the construct. Even if Agnes and Geraldine and Herb and Dottie are all real, Vision isn't, because Wanda killed him and then Thanos killed him again. Even if he exists in the reality she's created here, can he be entirely independent of her when he's only 'alive' because she made him that way?

My theory is that Vision literally IS her. Part of her. But he's independent because she's fractured herself. Whether you want to call it schizophrenic, multiple personalities, whatever, he's representative of the heroic parts of her.  The OTHER part of her isn't evil per se, but is other impulses. To use Freudian terms, she's the id, and Vision the Superego. Cartoonishly oversimplified versions of those, but this IS comic book logic. 

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I was just thinking is it possible that everyone else in the town is a Skrull? I watched the first 2 again with my kids and Vision says "my wife and her flying saucers". And in episode three the neighbor guy was almost about to say how the rest of the townspeople are something different than Geraldine. Plus SWORD is space threats right?

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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8 hours ago, Featherhat said:

Still Agatha Harkness?

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but as she was making sure Herb had his mouth shut, she was riding a bicycle with a bell....like the Wicked Witch of the West.  

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24 minutes ago, starri said:

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but as she was making sure Herb had his mouth shut, she was riding a bicycle with a bell....like the Wicked Witch of the West.  

Also, there's a good argument to be made that the three figures on her brooch are MacBeth's three witches. Further reinforced by the fact that Billy winds up named after Shakespeare.  Further reinforced by the fact that if Agnes IS Agatha, we will in fact have a total of three witches (Agatha, Wanda and Billy). 

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16 minutes ago, starri said:

I mentioned this in the episode thread, but as she was making sure Herb had his mouth shut, she was riding a bicycle with a bell....like the Wicked Witch of the West.  

Her anniversary is also June 2nd which could be a reference to the Salem witch trials. Her rabbit is Senor Scratchy and Old Scratch is a nickname for the devil (at least according to Lucifer). 

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11 hours ago, Kromm said:

Also, there's a good argument to be made that the three figures on her brooch are MacBeth's three witches. Further reinforced by the fact that Billy winds up named after Shakespeare.  Further reinforced by the fact that if Agnes IS Agatha, we will in fact have a total of three witches (Agatha, Wanda and Billy). 

It's probably not specifically from Macbeth: https://www.learnreligions.com/maiden-mother-and-crone-2562881

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22 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

I've wondered if Wanda wasn't working with Sword and maybe they were doing some training type stuff with her to see how powerful she really is, and this is the result. She could have met people like "Geraldine", Mrs Hart, etc as Sword scientists, doctors, agents, etc and now has them all trapped in this reality. Sort of like Wizard of Oz, except that Wanda has the people actually stuck in the real world and not just her head. But then I'm not sure how Agnes and "Ralph" fit in, because it seems that Wanda is also being manipulated by outside bad forces, or Sword likely wouldn't be trying to reach Wanda ("who did this to you?", sending in "Geraldine"). This all probably belongs in the speculation thread so maybe I'll carry it over there. 

I've wondered about the status of the Accords post Endgame. Is she still considered a criminal? Is she in a facility somewhere and this is partially the result? Was Sword called in to help when it all went haywire? 

Quoting myself from the episode thread to elaborate more here. It feels like there have been a lot of Wizard of Oz references (one YouTube Easter egg video says the movie marquee behind Vision in the theme song is Great and Powerful Oz, which didn't come out till 2013), so I think these are deliberate. But I feel like Wizard of Oz would point more to 

Spoiler

a villain like Nightmare than Mephisto, and I don't see them diverting from that story. 

I also wondered if the input/output Vision's job is tracking is Wanda's chaos magic. 

I'm really intrigued with the mention of Pietro this episode and knowing that Evan Peters has been cast and not been shown yet. It could be entirely unrelated and they just liked him for the role, or it could be pointing to something more given that we know Wanda will be involved in Multiverse of Madness. 

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14 hours ago, Dani said:

Her anniversary is also June 2nd which could be a reference to the Salem witch trials. Her rabbit is Senor Scratchy and Old Scratch is a nickname for the devil (at least according to Lucifer). 

Yes to all of the above. Also, in the comics, the villainous wizard Nicholas Scratch is the son of Agatha Harkness. Even the rabbit, Senor Scratch may be more than he seems.

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So since there are 9 episodes this season if they keep up the one episode per TV decade they will run out of decades before they run out of episodes (even if there is an episode that is 2020's tv whatever that is). So I am wonder if after they run out will the remaining episode be Wanda losing her shit because reality caught up to her and her babies were taken away?

Also the third episode got me thinking, if Westview is a real place and Wanda is actually there, how do the fake commercials fit in? Is someone actually acting them out in some other building in the town?

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12 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also the third episode got me thinking, if Westview is a real place and Wanda is actually there, how do the fake commercials fit in? Is someone actually acting them out in some other building in the town?

Not just the fake commercial but the "show" in general.  At the end of episode 1 we saw someone in the real world (presumably, since it was in color and in widescreen) watching the "closing credits" of the "show" on a small black-and-white TV while taking notes.

So what is making the commercials and the entire sitcom frame for that matter.  It's one thing for Wanda to be making herself live in a sitcom life, but what's causing the opening credits, closing credits, etc. of the sitcom?  Is that part of her delusion as well?  Is she deluding herself into living an actual filmed sitcom?  Or is something else creating the "show"?

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I think Wanda fell asleep in front of the TV and she's just dreaming all of this.  She's post-Infinity War and she misses Vision.  

I'm half kidding; I'm sure there's a lot more going on than that.  But I would LOVE it if that's all it is. 😉 

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One thing for sure, the NPCs seem to become more aware whenever Wanda becomes more aware that the reality isn't really that real. Like, the moment she thought about Pietro, everyone seemed to get more autonomy.

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On 1/22/2021 at 2:42 PM, Kromm said:

For all my speculation on Herb's possible complicity, and Agnes leaning on him, it didn't escape me that Herb was metaphorically trying to escape by cutting that wall.

Yeah, but he would be escaping by cutting through Wanda's yard! It would make more sense to go in the other direction (if there is one.)

 

On 1/23/2021 at 6:34 PM, tkc said:

Here's Agnes' brooch. Could the central figure be waving a wand, creating a magical effect or a barrier over top of the people underneath?

sub-buzz-298-1611350417-3.jpg?crop=1371:

I think it's a scythe.

The smaller figures are the twins.

Spoiler

 

 

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I'm super curious if the 80s and 90s episodes will have a shot on video look, rather than the (period authentic) film look of the first few episodes.

I was rewatching the bit in Infinity War where they discuss the Mind Stone and Vision, and there's a part where Bruce Banner suggests that Vision could survive without the stone. That glimpse in ep 4 of a stone-less corpse Vision makes me think that it's not just a corpse puppet animated by Wanda's powers, but more that she's somehow actually powering his corpse and his brain, and thus maybe there's a way to bring him back all the way for real. I don't know, maybe Feige & co don't want to undo that death. They kinda wanted it both ways with Coulson, after all -- that he was alive for AOS but canonically dead within the MCU proper. But it'd be a shame not to have Vision around anymore.

I had said in the ep 3 thread that we didn't see Monica ejected from Westview the way we did in the trailers, and now it showed up as the show took a bit of a second look at what happened in the first three episodes. I now doubly think that the live studio audience, the sets, and the crew will show up at some point.

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2 hours ago, arc said:

I was rewatching the bit in Infinity War where they discuss the Mind Stone and Vision, and there's a part where Bruce Banner suggests that Vision could survive without the stone. That glimpse in ep 4 of a stone-less corpse Vision makes me think that it's not just a corpse puppet animated by Wanda's powers, but more that she's somehow actually powering his corpse and his brain, and thus maybe there's a way to bring him back all the way for real. I don't know, maybe Feige & co don't want to undo that death. They kinda wanted it both ways with Coulson, after all -- that he was alive for AOS but canonically dead within the MCU proper. But it'd be a shame not to have Vision around anymore.

I think what Banner meant was that Vision could survive without the stone if it was done properly, though. Because Shuri, while brilliant, was still having to do quite a bit of work to map Vision's brain so she could remove the stone and then have Wanda destroy it. If she hadn't had to destroy it while it was still part of him, he might have been able to, but who knows?

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I'm beginning to wonder if Wanda's saving grace could be if all of these people are dead. Maybe something happened to all of them and this is a complicated deal where she reanimated all of them. It doesn't even conflict with the Agatha Harkness theories, since besides being associated with Mephisto, ol' Agnes also has a history of being an animated corpse. 

Herb was going to say "Dead" not "Trapped". 

The ones who speak more of being trapped are the minority who don't understand death is the alternative. Or who'd welcome death rather than thus faux life. 

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More a question than a speculation, but since the answer might be considered a spoiler in an episode thread I'm asking here.  Does anyone know if we're done with the sitcoms, or was this just a (very aptly named!) break?  As someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s I really really want to see what they do with 80s sitcoms before they ditch the sitcom format for good.

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4 minutes ago, QuantumMechanic said:

More a question than a speculation, but since the answer might be considered a spoiler in an episode thread I'm asking here.  Does anyone know if we're done with the sitcoms, or was this just a (very aptly named!) break?  As someone who grew up in the 70s and 80s I really really want to see what they do with 80s sitcoms before they ditch the sitcom format for good.

The trailers show scenes that look like they're set in the 80s, so we're not done with it yet.

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On 1/25/2021 at 9:13 AM, QuantumMechanic said:

Not just the fake commercial but the "show" in general.  At the end of episode 1 we saw someone in the real world (presumably, since it was in color and in widescreen) watching the "closing credits" of the "show" on a small black-and-white TV while taking notes.

So what is making the commercials and the entire sitcom frame for that matter.  It's one thing for Wanda to be making herself live in a sitcom life, but what's causing the opening credits, closing credits, etc. of the sitcom?  Is that part of her delusion as well?  Is she deluding herself into living an actual filmed sitcom?  Or is something else creating the "show"?

Heh -- guess I asked that at the right time!  🙂

Though...we still don't know if Wanda is voluntarily if subconsciously generating the sitcom frame or if some else is "encouraging" her to do that.

3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

The trailers show scenes that look like they're set in the 80s, so we're not done with it yet.

But will we get a full sitcom, or will we just see snippets of the 80s sitcom from the people at the real-world S.W.O.R.D. base monitoring the transmissions?

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3 minutes ago, Keywestclubkid said:

can her children pass the barrier and remain real and alive? if other things that got pulled out Monica with her clothes and the jump rope would that mean the children could be puled over too?

I'm going to speculate "not yet" instead of just "no".  But we know Wanda herself is unlikely to think it's possible, because she's quite clear in her thinking that Vision can't do the same thing. I mean his body is likely real, but his actual life? Clearly not. 

Unlike Vision (and the neighbors), the children as far as we know aren't even formed from anything real. So there's even less reason to think they'd persist. 

Yet. 

Clearly more is going on. There's too many episodes left just for ""SWORD has to get Wanda". There's some mechanism, some payout, that ends this but doesn't erase all of it. The pretty public indicators that Dr. Strange 2 may involve a continuation of villainous Wanda (the nature of her role is not confirmed though) and that tons of other "Young Avengers" characters are floating around the MCU makes it likely. 

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The phenomenon broadcasts out Wandavision as an actual show, complete with commercials and titles and credts, in a form compatible with old TVs. To be strictly pedantic, an old flat HDTV from like 12-plus years ago might have still included an NTSC tuner that would have been compatible with the black and white and later color broadcasts coming out of Westview. Though even then some HDTVs were dropping those and it was certainly a safer choice to just get an old TV. But if the show-within-the-show switches to 16:9 HDTV for the 2000s era sitcom homage, then technically speaking Westview should switch to an ATSC broadcast. I realize this is impossibly nerdy and if I were writing it I would probably skip explaining it on screen. But I still kinda want to see it.

Less technically, the censorship experienced on the outside, plus the credit sequences and titles, suggests some kind of thing that Wanda isn't directly creating. She certainly doesn't seem to perceive such breaks in her reality.

edit: why was Hayward "the only choice" to succeed Maria Rambeau? Is he a Skrull????

Edited by arc
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6 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Do you think they'll do Full House for the 90's or will that be too meta?

I’m thinking we might get a Full House style theme song. 

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29 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Do you think they'll do Full House for the 90's or will that be too meta?

Full House was both late 80s AND early 90s so it might go in either.  Ditto for Roseanne.  Neither fits either decade precisely due to being both long running AND starting late in the decade. 

I'm thinking ASIDE from Full House and Roseanne the obvious sitcom touchstones are:

1980s: the banner sitcom was The Cosby Show (which face it, they won't do), but Family Ties, Who's The Boss, and Growing Pains were also in this decade. 

1990s: the banner sitcom was Seinfeld, but it's not a family sitcom. So maybe Family Matters?  Probably not since it would be tricky to emulate a sitcom with a black cast. Er... Home Improvement and Boy Meets World were also 90s.  Screw it. This is probably where they'll stick Roseanne. 

2000s: The Office and How I Met Your Mother. Malcolm in the Middle is the closest you get for family sitcoms.  A tough decade for family sitcoms. Unless I'm missing something obvious. 

2010s: Obviously Modern Family. 

But Full House and Roseanne definitely are the jokers in the deck.  Do we define them by when they started, or by when they were the biggest hits? 

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11 hours ago, swanpride said:

shuri might have a copy of his "brain", though...

A big part of Vision's personality is JARVIS though and surely Tony Stark has backups of the JARVIS program somewhere. Maybe if they revive Vision they can use Jarvis and then fill in the blanks with the brain waves of a famous actor.

1 hour ago, Kromm said:

1980s: the banner sitcom was The Cosby Show (which face it, they won't do), but Family Ties, Who's The Boss, and Growing Pains were also in this decade. 

1990s: the banner sitcom was Seinfeld, but it's not a family sitcom. So maybe Family Matters?  Probably not since it would be tricky to emulate a sitcom with a black cast. Er... Home Improvement and Boy Meets World were also 90s.  Screw it. This is probably where they'll stick Roseanne. 

 

80's/90's would also give Married with Children as an option. Which could be amazing, even just seeing Wanda styled Peg Bundy. I don't expect them to do this, but if they did an animated episode they could also do The Simpsons.

Edited by Kel Varnsen
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59 minutes ago, Kromm said:

2000s: The Office and How I Met Your Mother. Malcolm in the Middle is the closest you get for family sitcoms.  A tough decade for family sitcoms. Unless I'm missing something obvious. 

Friends seems like the obvious choice. Particularly with a David Schwimmer lookalike. 

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12 minutes ago, Dani said:

Friends seems like the obvious choice. Particularly with a David Schwimmer lookalike. 

Except at this rate by the time we hit the 90s the kids will almost certainly have speaking roles. Not sure how Wanda and Vision raising kids would fit in on a Friends type show.

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43 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Except at this rate by the time we hit the 90s the kids will almost certainly have speaking roles. Not sure how Wanda and Vision raising kids would fit in on a Friends type show.

I’m thinking more references than a Friends type show. I’m guessing that by the time we reach the late 90’s and 00’s the show won’t be following the sitcom structure as closely. 

6 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

I was thinking more of would they do Full House since Elizabeth Olsen's sisters were in it. 

Probably. It’s a natural fit and the connection adds a fun element without being over-the-top meta. I’m thinking there will be at least a reference to Full House but probably not the main focus. That’s why I was thinking maybe the theme song. 

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1 hour ago, Dani said:

Friends seems like the obvious choice. Particularly with a David Schwimmer lookalike. 

Well, they could have done Taxi or the Mary Tyler Moore Show or WKRP for the 1970s. But they chose the Brady Bunch and Partridge Family. Trailers have shown a Family Ties and Modern Family vibe for some future episodes. It seems very likely they're sticking to family sitcoms this season.

The Cosby Show was the sitcom, family or otherwise, of the 1980s, but it's kinda toxic right now cause of the star. And even if it wasn't, it would be an impossible lift for two white characters* to lead a Cosby show homage. Cheers was the 80's other biggest sitcom, but that's a workplace/hangout sitcom and not worth ditching the suburban house setting. Family Ties and Growing Pains are the likely references for the 1980s. Maybe Mr Belvedere too?

* fine, Vision is a synthezoid, but he's portrayed by a white actor and his human disguise is a white man.

For the 1990s, there's Friends (hangout), Fresh Prince (a family sitcom but just doesn't fit Wanda & Vision), Blossom (a family sitcom but again not a good fit), The Nanny (......... probably not a good fit? Unless Agnes is the Nanny somehow?), Frasier (hangout/work sitcom). Probably best to go with Roseanne, which spanned the 1980s and 1990s, but mostly in the 1990s. And Wanda has been shown in some trailers to be somewhat dressed like the style of the characters on Roseanne. (I would be so sad if there wasn't a Full House in-joke or two though.)

The 2000s was extremely thin on hit family sitcoms as lingering influence from Seinfeld and Friends mostly made for hangout and workplace sitcoms. Modern Family technically debuted in fall 2009 and they might pick that. Or Arrested Development -- the MCU has deep ties to the Russo Brothers -- but AD is an incredibly specific sitcom to nail and so far they've done pastiches where multiple sitcoms from one era are mashed up into one another. There's almost nothing else like AD. And it's not a close fit for Wanda and Vision either; the cast is too large. Maybe they'll do Modern Family but with the AD opening sequence.

Edited by arc
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6 minutes ago, arc said:

Well, they could have done Taxi or the Mary Tyler Moore Show or WKRP for the 1970s. But they chose the Brady Bunch and Partridge Family. Trailers have shown a Family Ties and Modern Family vibe for some future episodes. It seems very likely they're sticking to family sitcoms this season.

 

Those involved have cited non-family sitcoms as inspiration for the series. I don’t think the show is going to completely change the format but there is room to include references to other shows within the format. 

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I think that Full house feels more like a 1980s sitcom and Roseanne more like a 1990s one, regardless of when they actually started. I think it is mostly because because Full House is still very "wholesome world" like, with a household, in which money is never the problem and the focus is more on "how to raise your children", while Roseanne is more gritty and addressed a lot of social issues. I suspect that they will lean mostly on Full House for the 1980s, and reference the overactive audience (you know, the kind of audience which is already applauding when the stupid neighbour enters the scene, even though nothing has happened yet and who goes "awwwwwwwww" at every opportunity) as well as the female character who talks about sex all the time (see Blanche from Golden Girls and Mona from Who is the Boss), and then go Roseanne for the 1990s, with the more grounded social circumstances. I also suspect that the Halloween scenes are from then, because Halloween episodes were not just typical Roseanne, the 1990s were when it really became a thing to have special Halloween episodes.

And since there isn't an ABC show which can be considered the big family sitcom success of the 2000s, they might then go for more general vibe, like the character who keeps talking directly to the audience, and the different kind of camera use.

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I don't know if it's meant to convey 2000s or 2010, but THIS clearly conveys MODERN FAMILY near the end of the promo. Wanda is kitted out to look exactly appropriate for that, in dress, mannerisms, how she talks, and filmic style. 

We see a clear Roseanne and/or Family Ties bit before that, which we've seen in other promos. 

Vision, WHATEVER he is, part of Wanda's mind or truly independent, is seen at the barrier. That's actually a big reveal. 

A military ATV runs the barrier. To what possible end isn't clear, or if they think they're protected against physical or mental manipulation. 

Monica is in a hospital bed unconscious, but we're also told she's at least well enough to provide intelligence. 

The final shot may or may not be Wanda and Vision fighting each other. It's staged in such a way (them both flying, facing each other) it could be that... or them leaving together and simply starting looking at each other. 

Edited by Kromm
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