S04.E04: Bible Camp and a Chariot of Love

[The Kings Foot]

23 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

 

I loved the van storyline. George sometimes has parenting down cold. And of course the girlfriend's dad read Georgie's intentions faster than the speed of light.

Right now George Cooper Sr may be the best Dad on regular TV . 

 

Separately this week's Paige/Sheldon plot was  unusual.  90% of it seemed heading towards Sheldon likes Paige but is too young to realize he's doing this to get get her attention.  Then the last 10% is  Nope he's the same brat he always was. 

And damn all the tweens are shooting up now. 

Edited December 5, 2020 by The Kings Foot

[Yeah No]

14 hours ago, anna0852 said:

 If Jana is Georgie's age she's about 17. Very much the age at which her sex life is her business. Her dad may not like it, but we're not talking about a couple of 13 year olds messing around. As long as everybody is safe and no one was pressured or forced into doing anything they don't want to do, then this is really no longer parental business.

The age of consent in Texas is 17.  Do we know that Georgie is supposed to be 17?

But even if he was, the age of consent is not the age of majority, which in Texas is 18.  That's the age at which a person ceases to be a minor and legally becomes an adult.  Before that their parents have a legal right to withhold permission about certain aspects of their lives, such as whether they can get married.  Prior to the age of 18 and after the age of consent they are still a minor  (usually considered a "youth") which means parents still have a right to make rules about their participation in sexual relationships while still legally their guardians and the child is their dependent and living under their roof.  The child can push to become legally "emancipated" and live on their own in order to avoid this, but that's not something that's usually feasible or desirable, as this episode so clearly illustrated.  Georgie threatening to live in the van doesn't constitute legal emancipation, either.

I think the age of consent just makes it not a crime in the eyes of the law to have sex with someone of that age or older, but if the child is still a minor in the eyes of the law, their parents still have a right to insist that they have their consent to have sex, unless the child is legally emancipated.  Of course, the child can disobey this without any criminal consequences but their parents still have the legal right to insist on the child getting their permission to engage in the behavior anyway.  After the age of 18 I don't think they can even do that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

I think the age of consent just makes it not a crime in the eyes of the law to have sex with someone of that age or older, but if the child is still a minor in the eyes of the law, their parents still have a right to insist that they have their consent to have sex, unless the child is legally emancipated.  Of course, the child can disobey this without any criminal consequences but their parents still have the legal right to insist on the child getting their permission to engage in the behavior anyway.  After the age of 18 I don't think they can even do that.

If there are no criminal consequences how can a parents have the legal right to insist their kids get their permission?

Having sex without your parents permission isn’t illegal. 

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

If there are no criminal consequences how can a parents have the legal right to insist their kids get their permission?

Having sex without your parents permission isn’t illegal. 

No, like I said, it's not a crime, but if the child took the parent to family court over it to claim that his parents had no right to issue such rules, the judges would side with the parents and tell the kid that while he is still a minor and living in his parents' house, his father has the right to insist that he get his permission on this until he is 18.  If he doesn't like it he can apply for legal emancipation.  But if the kid doesn't abide by the rule, it's still not a crime and the parents can't do much about it.  So it's kind of a nether zone, really.  It's because while still a minor parents are still within their rights to issue certain rules about getting permission first before their dependent kids engage in certain acts, like getting married, etc.  After the kid is 18 the parents don't have that right.  I think if something like this did come to court it would be one of those family court situations, certainly not criminal.  If a kid somehow got married without his parents' permission I don't know if they would go so far as to declare the marriage invalid but that could be a consequence.  There's really not much anyone can do after the fact if their minor kid goes out and has sex behind their back.  Ground them, perhaps?

Edited December 5, 2020 by Yeah No

[Katy M]

4 hours ago, Dani said:

If there are no criminal consequences how can a parents have the legal right to insist their kids get their permission?

Having sex without your parents permission isn’t illegal. 

It's not illegal (in many places anyway) for a 16 year old to stay out until 2 in the morning, but many parents have rules against that also.

It's not illegal for a child not to do their homework, but parents have rules about that.

It's not the law that a child has to clean their room or do chores.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

There's really not much anyone can do after the fact if their minor kid goes out and has sex behind their back.  Ground them, perhaps?

It seems the George Cooper Parenting Method of banishing the kid to the van worked out pretty well, but only because Georgie’s girlfriend’s father was also on the ball and confronted Georgie.

In the 1940s, my mother’s father found her making out with a saxophone player and chased  him all the way down the boardwalk in New Jersey. Unfortunately, in the 1960s my father avoided confrontation. At the time (and place) of this episode, it was socially acceptable for George and the other father to say “Hell, no!”

[Bort]

It’s very, as long as you live under my roof you follow my rules. Even OVER the age of 18. I had friends when we were of college age who would still ask their parents permission to go out for the evening. Not my mother, though, when I turned 18, she let me do what I wanted, just as long as I didn’t get myself arrested.

[ams1001]

10 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

It’s very, as long as you live under my roof you follow my rules. Even OVER the age of 18. I had friends when we were of college age who would still ask their parents permission to go out for the evening. Not my mother, though, when I turned 18, she let me do what I wanted, just as long as I didn’t get myself arrested.

Once we were 18 my parents just expected us to let them know if we'd be home late so they wouldn't worry. (Though I was three hours away at college when I turned 18, so...)

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

No, like I said, it's not a crime, but if the child took the parent to family court over it to claim that his parents had no right to issue such rules, the judges would side with the parents and tell the kid that while he is still a minor and living in his parents' house, his father has the right to insist that he get his permission on this until he is 18.

It’s not that clear cut. Kids have the right to some degree of body autonomy. It’s the reason minors can get birth control without their parents permission. Generally courts wouldn’t get involved with issues like this at all. The idea that any court would give a parent the right to decide if their 17 year old can have sex at all makes me extremely uncomfortable and I don’t think it would happen.

The point of the age of consent is that it’s the age when people can choose for themselves to have sex under any circumstances. I can’t see any court undermining that right. 
 

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

If a kid somehow got married without his parents' permission I don't know if they would go so far as to declare the marriage invalid but that could be a consequence.

It would be invalid because people under 18 can not sign legal contracts. 

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

It's not illegal (in many places anyway) for a 16 year old to stay out until 2 in the morning, but many parents have rules against that also.

It's not illegal for a child not to do their homework, but parents have rules about that.

It's not the law that a child has to clean their room or do chores.

Well of course. I was responding specifically to issues involving age of consent. 

[BitterApple]

I don't know any parent who'd be blasé about their teenaged daughter taking off in a shaggin' wagon, regardless of decade. It would've been a big "hell no" from my father and he was a pretty liberal guy. 

[aemom]

On 12/4/2020 at 2:25 PM, PWHCHCH said:

Georgie was looking jacked. Would a 17 year old in 1990 really have looked like that? 

I started dating my husband in 1987 and he was into weight-lifting as were some of his friends, so yup - it is possible.  I definitely didn't mind his hobby! 😉

[Yeah No]

55 minutes ago, Dani said:

It’s not that clear cut. Kids have the right to some degree of body autonomy. It’s the reason minors can get birth control without their parents permission. Generally courts wouldn’t get involved with issues like this at all. The idea that any court would give a parent the right to decide if their 17 year old can have sex at all makes me extremely uncomfortable and I don’t think it would happen.

No, I didn't say any court would get involved, in fact I said that it's not a criminal matter and there isn't much a parent can do.  I just said that the court wouldn't tell the parent they couldn't issue rules surrounding sex if their minor child lives at home and is their dependent.  That would extend to prohibiting sex in a van the child bought, because Georgie is still a minor and therefore George can take the van away any time he wants.  Georgie's father told him that he has to get rid of the van otherwise he can try to become legally independent.  Georgie called him on that and said he'd live in the van to get around that, but of course we know how that went.  And I'm sure George wouldn't allow him to have sex in the house either, and he's certainly allowed to make rules about that.  I haven't known any parents being told they had to let their minor child have sex in their home.  So it's not so much about whether George has control over whether Georgie has sex at all, I know that he can't, but he can certainly have control over Georgie owning a van (whether or not it's for the purposes of having sex) or having sex in the family home.

[Sarah 103]

On 12/3/2020 at 8:39 PM, SoMuchTV said:

Help me out here. Is Georgie still in high school? Did Sheldon leapfrog him? Or did he also graduate?

Georgie and Sheldon shared so many classes together, that I thought they started high school at the same time. I think Georgie will be starting junior or senior year of high school. I am not sure if each season equals one year.

Paige and Sheldon on screen together are fantastic. I think he may have a crush on her and isn't sure how to handle it or even recognize what it is. Paige is too mature for him and has no romantic interest in Sheldon. I loved Missy seeing the Sheldon/Paige tension and being ready to grab the popcorn and watch it all happen. I hope we get to see more of Paige.

[possibilities]

Paige is interesting as a contrast to Sheldon, because she shows you can be a genius and also have social awareness and put value on other people. Sheldon's bafflement and contempt for other people is not about how smart he is. I'm glad the show makes that point.

[Chit Chat]

On 12/4/2020 at 9:13 AM, tennisgurl said:

It was fun seeing Paige again, its too bad that she started getting competitive with Sheldon and Sheldon of course took it too far.

The look she gave Sheldon before rattling off the names of the Apostles had her 'Bad Seed' character vibe!!

[Yeah No]

On 12/5/2020 at 3:49 PM, Dani said:

It’s not that clear cut. Kids have the right to some degree of body autonomy. It’s the reason minors can get birth control without their parents permission. Generally courts wouldn’t get involved with issues like this at all. The idea that any court would give a parent the right to decide if their 17 year old can have sex at all makes me extremely uncomfortable and I don’t think it would happen.

The point of the age of consent is that it’s the age when people can choose for themselves to have sex under any circumstances. I can’t see any court undermining that right. 

I just spoke with one of my best friends on this topic.  He's a lawyer who has handled family law in CT for over 30 years, and he said that it might depend on the state, but in many states including CT, George would be within his rights as the parent of a minor to insist that Georgie refrain from having sex even if that sex occurs outside the home.  One big reason for that is if Georgie should get a girl pregnant while still a minor, her parents would be able to go after his father for support.  So the court wouldn't tell George he had no right to issue such a rule.  My friend also told me I was right that there really would be no way to enforce the rule and that the court would not issue any punitive action if Georgie broke the rule.  But on the other hand, they wouldn't have an issue if George engaged some pressure to prevent Georgie from having sex or in punitive action like withholding allowance, etc.

[shapeshifter]

Even if parents are legally able to tell their minor children what to do, getting them to do what is best for them is something else entirely.
George for the win!
(although likely Georgie *is* going to have sex.)

[The Kings Foot]

On 12/4/2020 at 12:08 PM, anna0852 said:

 No way. 

 If Jana is Georgie's age she's about 17. Very much the age at which her sex life is her business. Her dad may not like it, but we're not talking about a couple of 13 year olds messing around. As long as everybody is safe and no one was pressured or forced into doing anything they don't want to do, then this is really no longer parental business.

This series has given us at least four examples of teenage pregnancy in this community. It's clearly a big deal and one the parents of the community will be on guard for. 

Georgie himself was was apparantly conceived before Mary graduated. 

Coach pointed out he married young 

The high school principal mentioned he also married young when he was counseling a student who just discovered she was pregnant 

Even when discussing Sheldon's graduation the Principal mentions that pregnancy is a major cause of students leaving school early. 

Basically this community while very nice and friendly has issues. So we can't really blame the parents for wanting to stop the cycle. 

[Bort]

The drawback of small towns in Texas. Not much else for the teens to do.

[kwnyc]

Sheldon being Sheldon, he always has to win, and because he doesn't actually understand others' feelings very well, he says something he knows will cut Paige to the bone because he MUST top her. Paige knows she is acting out...she's that smart...bu she can't stop it, because she's an adolescent (and girls usually get the hormonal whammy sooner than boys.)

So I understand her belting Sheldon...and wonder if she'll continue to recur. I'd like to hear future Sheldon's narrative telling us what Paige ended up doing. (And of course, Penny broke Old Sheldon's nose when he tried to steal the One Ring.)

[retired watcher]

On 12/4/2020 at 11:10 AM, WinnieWinkle said:

This may be true for some families.  It's not true for many - least of all in a small town where many people are uber religious and even less so in Texas in 1990.  

I t sure was a parents business back then. Teens having sex was every parents nightmare. It was ingrained in you that you would get pregnant and ruin your life. Back then it was no sex not safe sex. 

[hoodooznoodooz]

I feel really bad for Missy. Mary brings the family and Connie to church every Sunday, plus Missy must attend Bible camp? She seems to believe in God (or maybe she just enjoys presenting opposing views to Sheldon), which is great, but I don’t think it’s fair that Mary expects her to spend that much of her free time worshipping. My situation was different: my parents brought us to a church maybe twice a year, then when I was a tween, we suddenly were attending church every Sunday, plus a bible study every Friday night, then there were church retreats. I really resented it. Missy has been going to church since she was born, so it’s very different, but I just wish Mary would loosen her grip.

Edited December 8, 2020 by hoodooznoodooz

[Bort]

39 minutes ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

I feel really bad for Missy. Mary brings the family and Connie to church every Sunday, plus Missy must attend Bible camp? She seems to believe in God (or maybe she just enjoys presenting opposing views to Sheldon), which is great, but I don’t think it’s fair that Mary expects her to spend that much of her free time worshipping. My situation was different: my parents brought us to a church maybe twice a year, then when I was a tween, we suddenly were attending church every Sunday, plus a bible study every Friday night, then there were Church retreats. I really resented it. Missy has been going to church since she was born, so it’s very different, but I just wish Mary would loosen her grip.

It’s Vacation Bible School, it’s basically a summer day camp churches offer, which is really beneficial for working parents whose kids are out for the summer. It’s cheaper than day care and it’s not THAT churchy. It’s arts and crafts, playtime and yeah, it tends to focus on Jesus, but in a way that appeals to kids. It’s probably less about Mary shoving church down the kids’ throats and more about cheap day care for the twins.

[Driad]

19 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

cheap day care for the twins

Were 11 year olds really considered to need day care around 1990?  Depends on the kids, but in general?

[Bort]

43 minutes ago, Driad said:

Were 11 year olds really considered to need day care around 1990?  Depends on the kids, but in general?

In general, no. I, by myself, did not do day care at age 11, but I do remember parents doing it for kids when they had more than one kid. Because a kid by itself will likely stay out of trouble. Two? You’ll come home to food sprayed all over the kitchen because they were playing with the blender. Don’t ask me how I know.

[Yeah No]

50 minutes ago, kariyaki said:

In general, no. I, by myself, did not do day care at age 11, but I do remember parents doing it for kids when they had more than one kid. Because a kid by itself will likely stay out of trouble. Two? You’ll come home to food sprayed all over the kitchen because they were playing with the blender. Don’t ask me how I know.

I was an only child with a working mom and I was sent to day camp in the Summer not because they were worried about me getting into trouble (I was a good kid) but because they knew I'd be bored to death at home all day, mostly alone or at grandma's house (which is great in moderation but not all day every day all summer long).  I was a kid in the '60s and '70s when we were free to play on the block without our parents looking over our shoulders every minute, but during the summers there were fewer kids in my neighborhood outside to play with and not enough parental supervision either.  Going to camp also gave my very own "Meemaw" a break from having to supervise me (she lived in our apartment building and kept an eye on me when my parents were working).  She didn't act like my parents, but very much like "Meemaw" in this series, LOL.

Edited December 8, 2020 by Yeah No

[Bort]

39 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I was an only child with a working mom and I was sent to day camp in the Summer not because they were worried about me getting into trouble (I was a good kid) but because they knew I'd be bored to death at home all day, mostly alone or at grandma's house (which is great in moderation but not all day every day all summer long).  I was a kid in the '60s and '70s when we were free to play on the block without our parents looking over our shoulders every minute, but during the summers there were fewer kids in my neighborhood outside to play with and not enough parental supervision either.  Going to camp also gave my very own "Meemaw" a break from having to supervise me (she lived in our apartment building and kept an eye on me when my parents were working).  She didn't act like my parents, but very much like "Meemaw" in this series, LOL.

I wish to further discuss this but it’ll be too off topic, so taking it to small talk.

[TheLastKidPicked]

On 12/4/2020 at 4:19 AM, Mellowyellow said:

Always enjoy George parenting episodes and it was nice to see him and Mary be comedic with no conflict.

 

On 12/4/2020 at 6:15 PM, The Kings Foot said:

Right now George Cooper Sr may be the best Dad on regular TV . 

 

This my be why Young Sheldon, especially the last several episodes, has been enjoyable to watch.  The show has become a nice escape from everything going on in the world.  Almost a modern Leave it to Beaver.

[catlover79]

On 1/29/2021 at 3:17 PM, TheLastKidPicked said:

Almost a modern Leave it to Beaver.

Lumpy Rutherford was to LITB what Billy Sparks is to YS!! 😊

[Driad]

On YS, who is LITB's Eddie Haskell?

[catlover79]

23 minutes ago, Driad said:

On YS, who is LITB's Eddie Haskell?

I don't know, but I've always seen more than a bit of June Cleaver in Mary Cooper!!!

[Katy M]

9 hours ago, Driad said:

On YS, who is LITB's Eddie Haskell?

Paige if you squint really hard?  She does sometimes do the polite thing up front to the grown ups and then turns around and shoplifts or something.

[HurricaneVal]

I hated vacation bible school when I was a kid.  Hated it.  Even as young as I was I knew it was a waste of my parent's money and a waste of my time.  I could learn and do so much more on my own at home.  Plus, I really hated the forced socialization that came with churchy activities.  I don't know those kids, and those kids don't know me.  But they know I'm different, so they know they can bully me and even adults would be OK with that because I'm different and not say anything.   

OMG.  I was Sheldon.

OK.  Not really Sheldon, but an introverted smarty pants nerd who would rather be curled up in the dappled sunlight under the maple tree in our yard reading The Hobbit than playing "Jesus Loves You Simon Says" in the sweltering gravel church parking lot or filling in a "Loaves and Fishes" crayon-by-numbers coloring book.

[Katy M]

5 hours ago, HurricaneVal said:

hated vacation bible school when I was a kid.  Hated it.  Even as young as I was I knew it was a waste of my parent's money

I'd be really suspicious of any church who charged for VBS. I don't think I've ever heard of such a thing.

[John Potts]

I did have to question whether the Minister would really choose an Elton John track to sing along to (though at the time of the episode he may have still been married to his first spouse, Renate, so I guess his sexuality wouldn't be as widely known).

“There was a mouse in the Mini fridge”

“Ewww!”

“Didn’t you hear me? A mini fridge!”

- spoken like a true teenage boy.

On 12/4/2020 at 2:34 AM, nx74defiant said:

I love Missy. Praying for Sheldon to go to monkey hell.

Clearly she agrees with Thomas Aquinas ("The blessed in the kingdom of heaven will see the punishments of the damned, in order that their bliss be more delightful for them"), though it still seems rather unChristian to me.

On 12/4/2020 at 3:31 AM, anna0852 said:

Quite frankly if Georgie wants to fool around with his girlfriend in a car, it's not going to matter what kind of car it is. And I speak from personal experience.

It did strike me as being a bit pointless to worry about the difference between him having a bed in his camper van when his car had a backseat. Though I can't claim to speak from any experience (as I don't drive)!

[Katy M]

48 minutes ago, John Potts said:

I did have to question whether the Minister would really choose an Elton John track to sing along to (though at the time of the episode he may have still been married to his first spouse, Renate, so I guess his sexuality wouldn't be as widely known).

What?