House Stark: Winter Is Coming

[Rhondinella]

Discuss House Stark hereth.

[jellysalmon]

As suggested by Constantinople in the Lannister thread (Most interesting house has most replies, meanwhile this is the first reply in the Stark thread)

House Stark Rankings

Top Tier

1. Arya. Rolls with dangerous dudes. Occasionally stabs things.

Boring Tier

2. Sansa. Glorified Lannister whipping girl. Occasionally cries.

Super Boring Tier

3. Bran. Got more interesting after he became crippled. Still boring.

4. Rickon. Couldn't pick him out of a lineup of one.

Dead Tier

5. Lyanna. AKA Helen of Westeros

6. Ned. Noble, but dumb.

7. Robb. Hot, but dumb.

8. Catelyn. Motherly, but dumb.

Dead and Boring Tier

9. BenJen. Or at least I think he's dead.

Edited April 24, 2014 by jellysalmon

[Meredith Quill]

What about Jon Snow? He is a Snow yes but he was still part of House Stark, has Stark blood in his viens.

[ParadoxLost]

The problem with how they portray the House of Stark is that they don't let them act as a "House". They're are reduced to a large degree to being the entry to each story. Its as if by having a Stark in nearly every story-line is the mechanism to create a cohesive world where everything is interconnected, perhaps more so than most factions being motivated for the Iron Throne or a victim of those with that motivation.

Starks separated in season 1 have not really been reunited since then and now most of them are dead. Most have no idea of anything happening to the others. They don't seem to have any real urgency in reuniting/saving family members because they are busy. Efforts to send flunkies to help the younger Starks seem token at best. All of this always feels more of a necessity of the story than organic to how a "House" behaves. Jon Snow found out about Robb off-screen.

Really Arya seems like the only one tightly connected to the others, but its because vengeance for the wrongs done her family are her motivator and she is always just minutes too late to atrocities perpetrated on Starks so there is an immediacy and connection to her family even though she is isolated from them.

Everyone else is reacting like some cousin they hadn't seen since childhood died but its a couple years before someone thought to mention it and eventually someone turns their attention back to more pressing matters.

I guess the other exception is Sansa because the Lannisters decide to torture her with everything they do to her family.

Its too bad really. I like the Starks as individuals but the Lannisters, as f'ed up as they are, are more of a family.

[Meredith Quill]

To be fair to Sansa, she thinks Bran & Rickon are dead, Arya is presumed dead and from what we've seen she wasn't close to Jon Snow (unlike Arya & Robb).

Jon thinks they're all dead save Sansa (I think) and his 'Starkness' won out when he decided to put duty first before family.

Ayra can't get to Sansa (she in the lion's den - pun intended) and I'm sure she also believes B&R are dead (no doubt the hound told her about Winterfell etc). I think given the choice she probably would go to Jon but she's the hounds captive so has no choice.

Bran doesn't have the foggiest where his sisters are (presumably in KL) and again his 'Starkness' won out when he decided that he has 'a quest' to fulfill.

Rickon is just a little kid trying to stay alive & hidden.

I think they all (except Jon), lost their compass when Catelyn was killed. Although it isn't clear whether Bran & Rickon know about the RW? I assume Rickon does IF he reached Last Hearth of course.

[ParadoxLost]

The thing is, I don't really hold it against any of them.  I'm generally fond of them all.  I like Sansa, Arya, and Jon.  Bran I could do without.

I just am not too fond of the duty first "Starkness" mostly because it feels more plot driven than character driven a lot of the time.  They need the chess pieces in certain places.  Its the same with all of them by necessity believing all the others are dead.  It feels like that is for the sake of the plot too.

[Meredith Quill]

I think the Stark kids are perhaps not the heart but the backbone of the whole saga which is precisely why they are separated and are spread over different storylines.

 

The overiding question is will they ever reunite?

[ParadoxLost]

I completely agree with you there.  The Stark kids are the backbone.  I'm just throwing myself a pity party because it annoys me that they always seem to kill them off before reuniting them.  

 

At least chop off a head while they are running towards each other in anticipation of a tearful reunion or something.  Jeez:)

Edited April 25, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[CletusMusashi]

I like Arya. Of course. Everybody does.

It took me most of Season 1 to forgive Sansa for siding with Joffrey, but eventually she'd been through the wringer enough that I became sympathetic to her plight. However, I still think she's the stupidest member of the immediate Stark family. And that's including the three who literally died of stupidity.

Bran deserves better stuff to do. I like the actor, and I actually think that the writers have a good handle on the character's personality. My problem is that they never give him anything to do. I don't mean riding a unicycle and slam-dunking whatever the local equivalent of a basketball is. I mean conversations. Human interactions. Practically all we ever see him do is dream about a stupid bird, wake up, talk about dreaming about a stupid bird, and then cut to the next scene. Supernatural doesn't have to be boring, but for some reason in Bran's case it usually is.

And Rickon just sucks. So far the only things Rickon has done are

1. Make the cast larger and more confusing during the early episodes. Like we didn't have enough trouble telling Robb, Jon, and Theon apart.

2. Leave a nice trail of walnuts that led to Theon having the idea of killing those other two kids, and

3. Give Osha even more reason not to get dragged into any of Bran's madcap north of the wall hijinks.

Which means, that, without Rickon, Osha might well have gotten dragged along with Hodor, the Guru twins, and the Little Lord, complaining all the way but at least adding some entertainment value. Now, since she's busy playing Fran Drescher to the Littler, More Useless Lord, poor Bran looks like he's going to be stuck up there having the absolute dullest conversations on the show.

"I dreamt of a crow."

"The crow is important."

"Hodor."

"You should eat something."

"Yes, I made lemming stew. Off screen."

"Hodor."

"See if you can put your mind into that tree."

"OK, I'll just roll my eyes back for the rest of the scene..."

"Oh, for love of fucking Hodor!"

It's hard to believe that his scenes have actually gotten less interesting while on the run for his life, but for the most part I think they have. His supernatural powers have the potential for interesting uses, sure, but if we can't step up the pace on their development, can we at least have something in his scenes besides them? Everyone else's group is allowed to banter a little. It's called dialogue. It's the difference between a character who's interesting in theory and a character who's interesting in actuality.

[Constantinople]

What about Jon Snow? He is a Snow yes but he was still part of House Stark, has Stark blood in his viens.

Not to mention Talisa Stark. She's a Stark by marriage, just as Catelyn was.

 

 

...it isn't clear whether Bran & Rickon know about the RW? I assume Rickon does IF he reached Last Hearth of course.

I suspect that Bran, Lord of "Previously On" and Warden of Youtube clips, will eventually "see" the Red Wedding.

 

 

It took me most of Season 1 to forgive Sansa for siding with Joffrey, but eventually she'd been through the wringer enough that I became sympathetic to her plight. However, I still think she's the stupidest member of the immediate Stark family. And that's including the three who literally died of stupidity.

I don't know if Sansa is the stupidest of the lot, but in any case, it's not her fault.

It's my theory that, as the eldest Stark children, Robb and Sansa were showered with attention by their parents. By the time Bran, Arya and Rickon showed-up, Ned & Catelyn were "been there, done that" and spent less time on them, as many parents do with later children. This explains why, in general, the Stark childrens' stupidity correlates highly with their age (Rickon is still too early to tell).

Jon Snow was kind of a dip shit, but he seems to be learning despite being one of the older kids. He wants to kill the Night's Watch Mutineers at Craster's not for reasons of justice -- that would be idiotic Robb talking -- but to prevent valuable intelligence from falling into Mance Rayder's Hands.

For Jon's growing acuity we can thank Catelyn. Catelyn ignored Jon which meant that Jon only had 1 stupid parent, in contrast to the other Stark children, who were saddled with 2.

[Meredith Quill]

Always liked your well thought out posts when you were an unsullied constantinople. Like them even more now I can interact with them :)

 

I think your theory has merit, (That ISN'T a spoiler btw) just my opinion.

[Constantinople]

As suggested by Constantinople in the Lannister thread (Most interesting house has most replies, meanwhile this is the first reply in the Stark thread)

House Stark Rankings

Top Tier

1. Arya. Rolls with dangerous dudes. Occasionally stabs things.

Boring Tier

2. Sansa. Glorified Lannister whipping girl. Occasionally cries.

Super Boring Tier

3. Bran. Got more interesting after he became crippled. Still boring.

4. Rickon. Couldn't pick him out of a lineup of one.

Dead Tier

5. Lyanna. AKA Helen of Westeros

6. Ned. Noble, but dumb.

7. Robb. Hot, but dumb.

8. Catelyn. Motherly, but dumb.

Dead and Boring Tier

9. BenJen. Or at least I think he's dead.

These categories need some work.

To start with, Robb isn't just King of the North, he's the King of YOLO: live fast, die young, leave a beautiful corpse, proof that only the good die young. Lots of guys imagine the Florence Nightingale / nurse fantasy; Robb lived it.

It's not Robb's fault if the Lannister apologists colloquially knowns as "the showrunners" spent all of their cool battle effects budget on the Lannister show piece, the Battle of Black Water. Robb was kicking ass and taking names in Season 1 & 2. Notice that when the Lannisters lose battles all we see is Robb playing Risk, or Robb throwing Jaime Lannister to the ground, or Robb on his horse in the rain before the battle, or Robb walking around the battlefield afterwards. Zzzzzz.

Perhaps Robb was wrong to trust Balon Greyjoy, but that was understandable. Robb & Balon were fighting to break-up the 7 Kingdoms. Joffrey, Stannis and Renly were all fighting to keep it together. So Balon, like the moron he is, attacked the only other party who shared his fundemental war aims.

And is it Robb's fault if Roslin Frey is hotter than Talisa? It's Walder Frey who shows his ugly ducklings to the world while keeping his swans under lock and key. If Walder Frey acted like a responsible member of the patriachy and properly objectified his women, none of this wedding mess would have ever happened.

[CletusMusashi]

And of course there's different types of intelligence.

Ned had atrocious social intelligence, which resulted in a sort of highly impractical honesty that was probably one of the main reasons a loose cannon like Robert liked him so much. However, he was able to figure out Mendelian genetics on his own, and only needed the book of records in order to see whether or not the data matched his hypothesis. So he was capable of rational thought in some cases, but whenever honor was involved, honor always went before reason.

Catelyn's mental weakness wasn't so much an obsession with her own honor as it was an unrealistic expectation of everybody else's. "Sure, if we send the Kingslayer back, I'm sure the Lannisters will free my daughters." "Oh, I know, Walder Frey acts like a supervillain, but he wouldn't really betray us." "The guy goes through wives like Kleenex, and if he spares Robb he's going to hang for treason, but I'll bet this hostage trick'll stop him..." But, like Ned, outside of her particular area of mental weakness, she seemed functional enough.

Robb, despite his age, was a brilliant military leader who managed to be a pain in Tywin's ass. His first biig mistake was trusting Theon, which, considering that they'd grown up as friends and that Robb had never actually met Balon, was understandable. His second was breaking an alliance over Talisa. But, having seen Talisa naked, I can't blame him too much for that one either. The mistakes that killed him were that one and trusting Catelyn's assessment of Frey, which was also understandable since of course you're going to trust the person who knows him best. So Robb's cognitive failings were less egregious than those of his parents, even if no less fatal.

Jon started out with a lot of Ned Stark in him. Since he wasn't distracted by dating or by meeting all the other nobles at family functions, he was left to spend all day dreaming of and practicing for his future as a heroic swordsman. He was good at the physical part, but mentally? Head in the clouds. I mean, he's the one who got Arya made fun of for naming her sword! But he seems to adapt to reality better than Ned did. The wildlings, at this point, will kill him as readily as Joffrey did if they get the chance, but Ned's neck wound up on the block through his own terrible decision. At least Jon's reason for pissing them off was acting as a spy in order to keep civilization from being overthrown by giants, cannibals, and/or zombies.

Sansa's intelligence... well, I hear she's good at sewing. At least compared to Arya, who hates sewing. I think the main reason Littlefinger killed Don Toes right in front of Sansa was that it was the only way the writers could think of for her to eventually figure out that the nice man with all that candy in his raincoat might be up to something suspicious.

Edited April 26, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[BlackberryJam]

OOoo....time to rant on the dumbest family in the history of Westeros.

 

Starting with the idiot formerly in charge, Dead Headless Ned.  Ned, you complete dolt, when someone tells you NOT to trust them, don't trust them. It's not as if Littlefinger weren't oozing sleaze, but he told you not to trust him.  And you did.  Not to mention issuing an arrest warrant for the Queen's father.  Oh, let's not do things in any sane manner, let's run around screaming HONOR and putting our entire family at risk.  IDIOT.

 

Robb Stark.  Sends his mother begging the Freys for help and promises to marry one of them, only to break his promise because "Dude, she's hot!" leaving himself without an ally and without an army he desperately needs.  Not to mention alienating another huge section of his army with the Karstark beheading because "HONOR!"  He's only slightly less stupid than his father.  

 

Catelyn Stark.  IDIOT.  Why would she believe Littlefinger about the dagger?  Littlefinger, who tells people not to trust him and runs brothels.  No one should ever believe anything he says.  And then, she puts her trust in the Kingslayer.  STUPID STUPID STUPID.

 

Sansa Stark.  The girl without a backbone.  Pull the string in her back and she repeats "I love Joffrey.  I am loyal to my king" but behind his back she manages to always trust the wrong person.  And cry a lot.  Sophie Turner does an excellent cry.  She also does an excellent mean girl when she's nasty to the servants.  Unpleasant, weepy but her stupidity can be blamed on youth and genetics, I suppose. 

 

Bran.  Not yet an idiot.  He is the Lorax who speaks for the trees.

 

Rickon.  I keep forgetting he exists.

 

Arya.  Only a few stupid acts, like not having her indebted killer go after Tywin immediately.  Otherwise, the most likable of all Starks.

 

Jon Snow.  Rocketing up the list to just behind Arya on the likability of Stark scale.  He's moved away from the emo-boy of the first three seasons.  He now fights authority, but authority still wins.  So far.

 

So, my final ranking of the Starks, best to worst.

1.  Arya. - Not an idiot.

2.  Jon. - Less of an idiot.

3.  Bran. - Growing roots.

4.  Rickon. - No personality is better than the ones ranked lower.

5.  Robb. - Dead and stupid, but pretty before that whole beheading thing.

6.  Sansa. - Can she ever make a decision?

7.  Catelyn. - Dead because she trusted all the wrong people, a skill she learned from...

8.  Ned. - The dumbest, deadest Stark of them all.

Edited April 25, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[CletusMusashi]

Hey Bran, sorry about the whole "wishing you and your group would get to be in an actual plotline" thing.

If you get out of this, you can start having visions of a four-eyed crow, okay?

[Olsongirl]

I don't really have favourite houses although I enjoy almost all of the Starks. I think Sansa is the only Stark I don't actively enjoy.

 

I miss Ned though. A lot.

 

So if I had to rank the Starks in order of favourites it would be as follows:

 

Arya

Ned

Catelyn

Jon

Benjen

Bran

Rickon

Robb

[dr pepper]

In a continent where nearly everyone with some authority is a wanton murderer, Ned Stark was one really decent exceptiion. But. As Ned's suspicions grew, he should have taken a cue from Jon Arryn, who was also, reputedly, honorable, and figured that he must have done the honorable thing when he figured it out, and the therefor, honor should be mixed with a little prudence, say maybe getting a raven off to Stannis a full day before going to give Cersei "fair warning".

But then, instead of a multithreaded epic, we'd just have the Seige of Casterly Rock.

Edited May 4, 2014 by dr pepper

[Lady S.]

This thread almost makes me want to defend Team Dumb Wolf (Robb and Cat) but that sl is dead and done with and I try not to waste my time thinking about it. Definitely don't care enough to defend Headless Sr., though I no longer think he is literally too dumb to live. Arya nailed his real problem, loyalty to the wrong person. His real intelligence failure was a continued belief in King Robert after he friend failed multiple times to back him up.

[Constantinople]

As suggested by Constantinople in the Lannister thread (Most interesting house has most replies...

And now the Stark thread had almost twice as many replies as the Lannister thread, so the Lannisters must be twice as boring.

More importantly, the Starks have as much gold in their gold mines as the Lannisters do in theirs: Zero!

[jellysalmon]

Ha! Does anyone really think the Lannisters are more boring than the Starks? Even Arya is getting a bit insufferable/one note. I predict the next person on her list will be "that dude that looked at me funny on the kingsroad"

 

Also, most of the Lannister talk got focused to the 100+ reply Jaime thread.

Edited May 5, 2014 by jellysalmon

[Constantinople]

Bran wargs Hodor into breaking Locke's neck

 

Jon tag teams with one of Craster's wives to put a sword through the back of Karl's head

 

Arya pokes the Hound with Needle and barely dents his armor (that was hilarious).

 

Sansa is practicing her manipulation skills with Aunt Lysa

.

Meanwhile Jaime is a coronation wallflower, Tywin is clipping coupons and Cersei is actually being nice to people.  Talk about pathetic.

[jellysalmon]

Ok that warging into Hodor was pretty cool and I honesty really enjoy Sansa's story line. 

 

I'm honestly not sure if you're genuine in your "Starks awesome. Lannisters stupid." credo. I was just being contrarian to even things out a bit. I like the Starks (though I do think that Bran/Jon's stories are boring)

 

We can keep playing this hyperbolic game though and I can make a similar post next week when the Starks do fuck-all and the Lannisters are in every scene. 

[dr pepper]

Hound's right, it's hard to kill someone in full armor with a skewer. But most of the people likely to be a threat are not in full armor, and Needle is perfectly designed to find vulnerable places. Plus, Arya is unlikely to ever get big enough to use a broadsword.

Edited May 7, 2014 by dr pepper

[ParadoxLost]

What I really like about Needle is that its a physical representation of Arya's connection to her family. Jon gifted it to her. Ned, on finding it, arranged for her to have fencing lessons. Its the acceptance from her family for who she sees herself as, not just a lady to be married off to birth heirs.

Reclaiming it gives Arya some of that connection back. I fully expect everyone on her list that she manages to take out will be taken out with Needle even if other methods are more expedient.

[jellysalmon]

We can keep playing this hyperbolic game though and I can make a similar post next week when the Starks do fuck-all and the Lannisters are in every scene. 

So lets check in on the Starks this week.

Arya: Not shown.

Sansa: Not shown

Bran: Not shown.

Jon Snow: Not shown.

 

Called it! And my god it was my favorite episode this season. Coincidence? Probably not.

 

Stark family status: Done and dusted.

[Meredith Quill]

So lets check in on the Starks this week.

Arya: Not shown.

Sansa: Not shown

Bran: Not shown.

Jon Snow: Not shown.

 

Called it! And my god it was my favorite episode this season. Coincidence? Probably not.

 

Stark family status: Done and dusted.

 

Stark family status: Backbone of the whole saga.

[TooMuchCoffee]

Stark family status: Backbone of the whole saga.

That's how I see it.  :)

[Constantinople]

So lets check in on the Starks this week.

Arya: Not shown.

Sansa: Not shown

Bran: Not shown.

Jon Snow: Not shown.

 

Called it! And my god it was my favorite episode this season. Coincidence? Probably not.

 

Stark family status: Done and dusted.

 

The Starks were ever present

 

They were the negative space of the episode, just as Varys referenced the negative space in and around the Iron Throne, not the throne itself, when telling Oberyn that the absence of desire leaves one to pursue other things.

 

Not that the Lannisters would appreciate, or even notice, that kind of subtlety.  Their idea of subtlety is a show trial that would make Littlefinger weep, the lies were so bad.

[BlackberryJam]

The only good Stark is a Stark who is not cluttering up my screen. It should be a Stark bye week every week!

On a good note for the Starks though, none of them got any dumber this week. So they've got that going for them.

[Meredith Quill]

Ten things to remember about the Stark children Vs the Lannisters;

 

1. They are children - even Jon Snow is only about 17ish.
2. They were brought up with their parents morals & ethics which they now need to unlearn to a degree. (Not their fault).
3. They are slowly learning how to survive in the world (albeit some <Sansa> more slowly than others).
4. I repeat they are children, not 40 year olds i.e. Jamie, Cersei, Tyrion, or even older (Tywin/Olenna/Littlefinger) who have already learned how to play the game to greater or lesser degrees of success.
5. I'm pretty sure Lancel is as dumb as dumb gets.
6. Cersei isn't far behind him.
7. Neither is Jamie for that matter. (I do like Jamie though but he isn't the brightest bulb).
8. Alton didn't strike me as cunning or a master strategist either.
9. The only things the Lannisters have going for them really is Tywin's cunning brain and possibly Tyrion's - if he survives.
10. They hold no power/lands/riches/men at present so they are without resources.

 

Always love an underdog. :)

[Mz Anthrope]

Great points to remember with regards to age and experience, Silverstormm.   I'd *still* love to shake the stupid out of Sansa, but she's barely into having her periods.  She can't really be expected to have near the finesse as even Margery - who's had constant instruction and tutelage from good, strong, and well-versed women.  Sansa's went from petulance with her parents and wanting to be a 'princess' to being thrown in with a pack of mad dogs called the Lannisters.  Her mother and father are gone, and very few have given a rat's ass about her 'development' outside of whether she's able to bear children. 

 

Here's hoping she gathers some big ol' gonads and dumps the Teat Sucker Robin through the hole and lets Lysa chase after him and jams a spoon handle up LF's nose.  She's gone from one absolute ghastly mess to another. 

[Lady S.]

Yeah, the only actual smart Lannisters are Tyrion and Tywin, who still make some pretty bad life choices. It's not really a matter of intelligence so much as morals. And gods know I get annoyed with Stark honor sometimes, but I really don't think the message we're seeing is "evil will always triumph because good is dumb." Let's just see how well that works out for Cersei and even Tywin.

 

And the only really stupid thing Sansa's done post-s1 was asking if her family could come to Highgarden. She's been A+ in her recent scenes with Uncle Creepy and Aunt Crazy.

[BlackberryJam]

No way are the Starks the underdogs.  Episode One of the series made perfectly clear "Starks are good; you should root for them and make them your favorites."  They are, of course, getting the hero's beatdown before they ultimately prevail.  I'm not sure which one of them will prevail, but they've been mapped out as the heroes of the story.  Idiots, yes.  Underdogs, no.

 

That's my biggest problem with the Starks.  We are supposed to root for them but they are so completely utterly fucking stupid that I just want to choke the crap out of them.  They are the blonde chicks running through the forest being chased by the axe murderer and going the wrong way and continually looking over their shoulders so they smack into trees. 

 

If you want to root for the underdog, I strongly suggest Walder Frey or Balon Greyjoy.  Their combined odds of winning the Iron Throne are 600,000:1.  Stark odds 5:3.  Targaryen 3:1.  Baratheon 10:1.  Lannisters 1,000,000,000:1.  Bolton 400,000:1.

 

Starks are the clear frontrunners, despite being idiots.  Yes, the stupid runs strong and deep in them, and some can be explained because they are children, but Ned was what?  50?  Catelyn in her 40s?  Youth is not an excuse for those two.

[Meredith Quill]

I feel there are 2 differing perspectives; the Starks are dumb!/boring! appears to come from a 'do they entertain me' POV, the other being invested in the characters and caring about them because they are portrayed as being very decent, if naive, people.

 

There is no right or wrong here, that's just my opinion.

 

For me the Lannisters are entertaining but I love to hate all but 2 of them. (they have my interest).

The Starks, I like them because I just care about what happens to them. (they have my heart).

No way are the Starks the underdogs.  Episode One of the series made perfectly clear "Starks are good; you should root for them and make them your favorites."  They are, of course, getting the hero's beatdown before they ultimately prevail.  I'm not sure which one of them will prevail, but they've been mapped out as the heroes of the story.  Idiots, yes.  Underdogs, no.

 

That's my biggest problem with the Starks.  We are supposed to root for them but they are so completely utterly fucking stupid that I just want to choke the crap out of them.  They are the blonde chicks running through the forest being chased by the axe murderer and going the wrong way and continually looking over their shoulders so they smack into trees. 

 

If you want to root for the underdog, I strongly suggest Walder Frey or Balon Greyjoy.  Their combined odds of winning the Iron Throne are 600,000:1.  Stark odds 5:3.  Targaryen 3:1.  Baratheon 10:1.  Lannisters 1,000,000,000:1.  Bolton 400,000:1.

 

Starks are the clear frontrunners, despite being idiots.  Yes, the stupid runs strong and deep in them, and some can be explained because they are children, but Ned was what?  50?  Catelyn in her 40s?  Youth is not an excuse for those two.

I refer to the current Starks because a post upthread pointed out how there were no Starks in the last episode. The only Starks left alive, are just children.

If Ned, Cat and Robb's stupidity angers anybody, then they already paid the ultimate price for that. What more could be wanted? I don't blame the children for the sins of their fathers, as long as they learn from their parents mistakes, that'll be good enough for me.

At this moment in time, in the story, they are the underdogs. Whether people believe they will prevail in the end or not isn't my argument, just that as things stand right now, in the show, they are the underdogs. Whatever tropes may be played out in the future, is the future, I'm talking about the here and the now.

And we are supposed to root for them because they are decent human beings (not to mention orphaned children!), not scheming, lying, manipulative scumbags.

[Lady S.]

Yeah, I enjoy the Lannister soap opera as much as the next person, but it's still the (surviving) Starks I'm rooting for. Tywin and Cersei need to die by the end of the series, I don't want a happy ending for my favorite blond shit, Jaime, and tbh I'd be plenty fine with Tyrion not surviving the end either.

 

I wasn't aware being underdogs and being set up as protagonists were mutually exclusive. Someone should let Hollywood know so they can change the way they make movies about "underdog" sports stories.

 

Ned and Cat's characters were meant to be in their late thirties, same as the veritable geniuses Jaime and Cersei. They just age worse in the North.

[Independent George]

There is only one true underdog in the story. One person who managed to thrive in spite of the myriad obstacles thrown in the way. One person who combines purity of heart, strength of will, and humility of spirit.

I speak, of course, of Hot Pie.

[dramachick]

House Stark will rise again.

 

 

 

 

[Lady S.]

Oh oh, and Roose Bolton can get his psycho son legitimized but super honorable yet beheads innocent men Ned doesn't even ask his best friend to legitimize Jon Snow.

That was purely practical, Ned already had an heir and was committed to a marriage alliance with House Tully. Ned cares about inheritance, do you think he would, in the book Robert had

a bastard raised as a noble at Storm's End,

yet Ned always said Stannis was the heir. And Ned cares about taking care of Jon as his own responsibility but he also cares about the shame about having a bastard, it's not something he was going to brush under the rug by letting Jon come ahead of his younger legit children in the line of succession. I think people too often confuse Ned's feudal code of honor with modern day morality, when this is also the guy who held someone else's son hostage for ten years (and lbr, Ned was more a father to Theon than Balon by default of being his only father figure, it's not like Theon was adopted and treated exactly the same as the Stark kids, they have three scenes in the pilot and never even made eye contact I sure as hell can't imagine Ned having warm moments with Theon like he did with Arya, Sansa, Bran, and Jon Snow), said Sansa was right not to ever openly disagree with Joffrey because he was going to her husband, let Arya have swordfighting lessons so she wouldn't find her own hapless peasant partners but also told her her only future was to be a lady and her sons were the ones who'd gets to do great things, thought his 10-year-old son needed to grow up and learn how to behead someone, and married his brother's girlfriend whom he'd never met because he inherited her along with Winterfell, and oh yeah, gave her no say in living with Jon Snow, and told no one including Jon Snow himself who imo certainly had more right to know than fucking King Robert, who the boy's mother was, or even whether she was alive or dead. (These last items also support the theory that Ned is actually Jon's uncle and his true paternity is top secret, but that's neither here nor there, point is, one thing there doesn't need to be any mystery about is why Jon was never legitimized.) Ned loved Jon, but there is no indication that Jon's bastardy was nothing more than a technicality. The mere fact that he didn't blink when Jon called him Lord Stark in the pilot shows that. And do people really think he couldn't have overruled Cat about Jon sitting with them for the royal feast.

 

As for why he beheaded the guy in the pilot, wasn't military desertion a crime punishable by execution until quite recently in our world? And the white walkers had been gone for thousands of years, and Ned doubted they ever existed, he thought that kid was a lunatic, and there is no insanity defense in Westeros. But even if he believed him, people can't just be allowed to run off because the white walkers returned, there'd be no more Night's Watch.

[PeteMartell]

House Stark makes me feel sad. What makes me most sad is that I really think we've passed the point of any happy reunion for anyone. In my head, the only one who ever meets any of them again is Jon, and that's mostly to say goodbye. I don't think what has become of Sansa, Arya or Bran would ever be close to their family now, and Rickon likely won't remember them soon.

 

I have to admit that I wonder how House Stark survived so many generations, given that Ned was far more focused on honor than on any common sense.

Edited June 11, 2014 by PeteMartell

[Lady S.]

I think Ned's honor came more from Jon Arryn than House Stark, the Arryn words are As High As Honor.

 

I have hope for a Stark sibs reunion for kind of a thin reason. I used to think what Ned told Arya about sticking together in winter was typical Ned drivel, because the surviving Starklings have been scattered to the winds for a while now, but then I realized that was all during autumn, winter

only just came in ADWD

, so maybe Sansa, Arya, and Bran will  escape their creepy mentors and come home when winter really gets going. Rickon can bite it for all I care, though, I don't see why I should be invested in that child when the other Starks hardly ever think of him.  Also, Melly saying she'll meet Arya again someday would seem to foreshadow Arya

making it to the Wall.

[Advance35]

I've actually begun to find Jon Snow interesting to an extent.   I think Kit does a servicable job considering the structure of the storyline he has to carry.   I don't know if he needed an hour for the climax but he's decent and I like Jon Snow and Samwell Tarly.   I'm not overly fond of their taste in women but I thought his fight scenes at Castle Black were awesome.    And it's interesting watch him interact with contentious characters like Allister Thorne and Kings Landing Subplant Janos Slynt.

 

I think Sansa is absolutely awesome, especially lately.   And I love that she's developed a focused sense of self-interest.  "The only reason I didn't get you executed is because after they were done with you, who know's what they would have done with me." LOL.   She has now become familiar with the inner workings of House Stark, House Lannister, she has some insight into House Tyrell and from the looks of it may be involved in the fall or strengthening of House Arryn.    She was bethrothed to Joffrey, thrown over publicly for Margaery Tyrell, secretly plotting with House Tyrell to marry Loras, than married to Master of Coin Tyrion Lannister.   Who saw any of that coming in Season 1.   Her dynamic with Tyrion, Cersei, Littlefinger lead to some of the best scenes in the story IMO.     She's now a fugitive from the Iron Throne, wanted for Regicide, living under an assumed identity, and just helped in the Cover up of her deranged Aunt's Murder.   Scandal.

 

All the other Starks, Bran, Rickon and Arya.........Boring, Boring and Boring as all Hell.

 

Though I don't see any Stark sitting on the Iron Throne at the end of all this and I think that includes Jon Snow.

[Constantinople]

I think people too often confuse Ned's feudal code of honor with modern day morality, when this is also the guy who...told no one including Jon Snow himself who imo certainly had more right to know than fucking King Robert, who the boy's mother was, or even whether she was alive or dead. (These last items also support the theory that Ned is actually Jon's uncle and his true paternity is top secret, but that's neither here nor there, point is, one thing there doesn't need to be any mystery about is why Jon was never legitimized.)

Sorry to beat a dead Stark horse, as it were, but if Jon were not Ned's son, that would also explain why Ned never had Jon legitimized. Of course, this risks running into the trap of conspiracy thinking where every piece of evidence is interpreted to support the theory. After all, if Ned had legitimated Jon, I could just as easily argue that's proof of the lengths to which Ned was willing to go to protect Jon from Robert Baratheon and any other Targaryen haters.

 

As for why he beheaded the guy in the pilot, wasn't military desertion a crime punishable by execution until quite recently in our world? And the white walkers had been gone for thousands of years, and Ned doubted they ever existed, he thought that kid was a lunatic, and there is no insanity defense in Westeros. But even if he believed him, people can't just be allowed to run off because the white walkers returned, there'd be no more Night's Watch.

I agree that even if Ned believed the Night's Watchman, he still committed a capital offense by deserting. Rather than flee, the deserter should have returned to Castle Black and reported what he saw.

 

 

I have to admit that I wonder how House Stark survived so many generations, given that Ned was far more focused on honor than on any common sense.

Perhaps the Starks could afford to be more honorable after the Targaryen invasion. Anyone thinking about giving the Starks trouble would also have to consider whether they wanted to risk screwing around with the Targaryens.

 

 

...Rickon can bite it for all I care, though, I don't see why I should be invested in that child when the other Starks hardly ever think of him.

Rickon smashes walnuts. Orson smashes beetles. So Rickon is the living embodiment that Starks are less bloodthirsty than the Lannisters.

Plus, I have this theory, based on nothing, that Rickon will end up as Lord of Winterfell. I'm not saying Bran will die, just that he may decide that he can't be Lord of Winterfell and do whatever it is that Bran feels he needs to do.

[seacliffsal]

I think the values of House Stark are the ones that were necessary to rule in the North.  The other houses can play power politics all day long and not face rebellions within their realms, but I doubt that the other houses of the North would tolerate that kind of interaction.  I truly believe that Ned was who he needed to be for what his role was until Robert took him out of his element.  Ned was on just as steep of a learning curve than his children are, but didn't have the time to learn from mistakes and adjust his thinking and actions.

 

I actually think that the Stark children will come out ahead as they are all creating their own unique roles and areas of influence.  Bran with magic, Sansa with political manuevering (that she is just started to act upon), Jon with leadership (and military), Arya with military training, and Rickon with...something.  If they ever reunite they would be formidable and have the combined knowledge to rule well.  They are gaining invaluable experience and knowledge and I can hardly wait to see how they all come together (well, and IF they all come together....I'm unspoiled).

[Maximum Taco]

Plus, I have this theory, based on nothing, that Rickon will end up as Lord of Winterfell. I'm not saying Bran will die, just that he may decide that he can't be Lord of Winterfell and do whatever it is that Bran feels he needs to do.

 

I tend to agree.

 

I always felt that once Bran went beyond the Wall he was not coming back. And even if he does come back, he won't be the same, I don't know that he would want the Lordship. He might easily abdicate and leave it to Rickon.

[Rocket]

I think the eventual winner is the person who had a comet (with magic coming back I am sure means something) show up when she received her dragons. Or at least Danny will be the last to fall to the White Walkers. But there is always the chance of marriage alliance with her marrying a Stark or two she does need two other dragon riders. Maybe she can marry Brian and Arya so at least the marriage with have one bother sister couple in it. I like that idea better than Danny finishing off the Starks along with the rest of the families that revolted against Targ rule. Of course if Jon is a Targ then Danny can marry him. In any possibility I like the idea of Arya being a dragon rider and General for Danny. Arya be the one Danny sends out to take out people she wants dead no possibility of mercy. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by Rocket

[Lady S.]

I think the values of House Stark are the ones that were necessary to rule in the North.  The other houses can play power politics all day long and not face rebellions within their realms, but I doubt that the other houses of the North would tolerate that kind of interaction.  I truly believe that Ned was who he needed to be for what his role was until Robert took him out of his element.  Ned was on just as steep of a learning curve than his children are, but didn't have the time to learn from mistakes and adjust his thinking and actions.

 

I actually think that the Stark children will come out ahead as they are all creating their own unique roles and areas of influence.  Bran with magic, Sansa with political manuevering (that she is just started to act upon), Jon with leadership (and military), Arya with military training, and Rickon with...something.  If they ever reunite they would be formidable and have the combined knowledge to rule well.  They are gaining invaluable experience and knowledge and I can hardly wait to see how they all come together (well, and IF they all come together....I'm unspoiled).

Yeah, I think Ned made a fine leader in the North and Robb would have been a great successor. Their problem was going South. That's one reason why I'd prefer any male heir, be it Bran, Rickon, or a newly-legitimized Jon to end up ruling Winterfell instead of Sansa, who is only falsely believed to be the last Stark. Of course I want her to achieve more agency, but I don't think her lessons from southron politicos are really useful to ruling a land that must be forcefully protected, a land  where you get a bannerman to respect you by having your direwolf bite his fingers off.

 

I also think that it needs to be taken into account that Ned, Cat, and Robb had to die so the younger Starks' stories could really start. Without Ned's death, Bran wouldn't still be left in charge of Winterfell in s2 and wouldn't have to flee the castle when was sacked. Without Robb and Cat's deaths, Arya would be reunited with them instead of continuing on her murder training, and Sansa would be asking Baelish why the hell he brought her to her mother's sister instead of her mother instead of going along with his dastardly designs. That's why Ned was lured to King's Landing and Walder Frey exists, the decks were stacked against them from the start. Consider that Balon Greyjoy probably would have invaded the North without Robb making the mistake of sending away Theon, but if the North weren't invaded Robb could draw reinforcements from up there, since his army was assembled on the hurry to free Ned and wasn't the full strength of the North, meaning he wouldn't have needed to go groveling to Walder Frey if the Karstarks defected. And if Renly and Stannis had actually worked together or if Renly just wasn't killed by a fucking shadow, the Tyrells would have never joined up with the Lannisters and Tywin would remain on the losing side of the war. A lot of things had to happen just so for the Young Wolf to win all his battles and still lose his head, and not all of those things were Robb or Cat's fault. And yes, the same even goes for Headless Sr., Joffrey ordering his execution, after he confessed and Robb had marched South, was against the Lannisters' own interests and surprised even Varys. And it cannot be emphasized enough what a plot contrivance it was for Tyrion to find Cat in that inn, or that no one could have predicted Lysa turning into such a nutbar. Meanwhile, Bran and Arya have survived multiple near-death experiences, Sansa has survived despite her naivete in one viper's nest after another, and Jon Snow bumbles along while still being pretty noble. Ned and Robb's deaths weren't killing off the heroes of the story, because it was never really their story.

 

I tend to agree.

 

I always felt that once Bran went beyond the Wall he was not coming back. And even if he does come back, he won't be the same, I don't know that he would want the Lordship. He might easily abdicate and leave it to Rickon.

If Bran isn't Lord of Winterfell/King in the North, it can only be because he couldn't get back from the far North. I don't buy any theories of Stark abdication,

Bran very much does not want to wed a tree and still thinks of Winterfell all the time.

Whenever the story does end, he'll be what, 11 at the most, in the books? I don't see him maturing that much, to come home only to be the Maester Aemon of the family and let his younger, feral brother rule. Book Rickon was all of three when everybody left him, he probably barely remembers Ned, Robb, and Cat, so I always have to sideeye all the tumblr fanart I see depicting an adult Rickon, who will never even appear without the time jump, with "the North Remembers" as text.

Edited June 12, 2014 by Lady S.

[fantique]

I like the Starks. Here at least it shows a family improving with the younger generation. In the mong run, I do think the Starks will prevail but I hope that it is the end of their death count. Anymore deaths in that family would just be kicking the poor puppies while they are down. There is enough anguish with most of them fearing/thinking they are the last of of their family still standing.

 

My ranking:

Living Starks                                   Dead Starks

1. Arya                                           1. Catelyn (I liked that she put the retrieval of her daughters above the politics and power struggle. Stupid but oh well)
2. Jon                                            2. Ned (poor bastard just should have never gone to KL)
3. Sansa                                        3. Robb (I get it was twu wuv but breaking the deal was dumb)
4. Bran
5. Rickon
6. Benjen?

I am looking forward to see how they will be told of the other siblings still being alive. I am sure it will be a slow reveal and hopefully no too little too late situations with getting to them just as they see their kin die.

[Carrie Ann]

Our rankings are pretty much the same, though my top 3 living Starks switch places regularly. But the bottom slot never changes for me. Oh, precious Robb fell in love and wants to get married. How nice. Everyone else in your family is forced to do all sorts of awful things they don't want to do, but God forbid you make the same sacrifices for the greater good. His treatment of his mother--the person who orchestrated the deal that got them the advantage of the Twins in the first place--makes me rage. Why Robb doesn't get the same level of hate Sansa does is beyond me. He's the weakest Stark by a fair measure, in my opinion.

[Pete Martell]

Our rankings are pretty much the same, though my top 3 living Starks switch places regularly. But the bottom slot never changes for me. Oh, precious Robb fell in love and wants to get married. How nice. Everyone else in your family is forced to do all sorts of awful things they don't want to do, but God forbid you make the same sacrifices for the greater good. His treatment of his mother--the person who orchestrated the deal that got them the advantage of the Twins in the first place--makes me rage. Why Robb doesn't get the same level of hate Sansa does is beyond me. He's the weakest Stark by a fair measure, in my opinion.

 

Robb had a good body and a handsome face and looked pretty when he cried.

 

I can't bring myself to hate Robb, mostly because he shouldn't have been put in the position of leadership. He lasted longer than many would have, but in the end he was too torn between man (saving face, making unpopular, bad decisions for that reason) and boy (marrying who he wanted because he wanted to, regardless of the consequences).

 

It's tough for me to say what the others would have done, because most of them have never been in any position of power. They've always been on the backfoot. 

I also think that it needs to be taken into account that Ned, Cat, and Robb had to die so the younger Starks' stories could really start. Without Ned's death, Bran wouldn't still be left in charge of Winterfell in s2 and wouldn't have to flee the castle when was sacked. Without Robb and Cat's deaths, Arya would be reunited with them instead of continuing on her murder training, and Sansa would be asking Baelish why the hell he brought her to her mother's sister instead of her mother instead of going along with his dastardly designs. That's why Ned was lured to King's Landing and Walder Frey exists, the decks were stacked against them from the start. Consider that Balon Greyjoy probably would have invaded the North without Robb making the mistake of sending away Theon, but if the North weren't invaded Robb could draw reinforcements from up there, since his army was assembled on the hurry to free Ned and wasn't the full strength of the North, meaning he wouldn't have needed to go groveling to Walder Frey if the Karstarks defected. And if Renly and Stannis had actually worked together or if Renly just wasn't killed by a fucking shadow, the Tyrells would have never joined up with the Lannisters and Tywin would remain on the losing side of the war. A lot of things had to happen just so for the Young Wolf to win all his battles and still lose his head, and not all of those things were Robb or Cat's fault. And yes, the same even goes for Headless Sr., Joffrey ordering his execution, after he confessed and Robb had marched South, was against the Lannisters' own interests and surprised even Varys. And it cannot be emphasized enough what a plot contrivance it was for Tyrion to find Cat in that inn, or that no one could have predicted Lysa turning into such a nutbar. Meanwhile, Bran and Arya have survived multiple near-death experiences, Sansa has survived despite her naivete in one viper's nest after another, and Jon Snow bumbles along while still being pretty noble. Ned and Robb's deaths weren't killing off the heroes of the story, because it was never really their story.

 

I agree with you about Sansa, that her story has truly started with their deaths, but I feel like Arya in particular could have benefited storywise from more interaction with them, instead of 3 seasons of being depressed and musing on life in various Northern locales. I wish they'd had her reunite with them right before the Red Wedding but they were able to get her out in time.

[Pete Martell]

Here I am, embarrassing myself by crying over a fanvid (made after season 3). I guess because it sort of sums up my feelings after the season finale, that even if all the remaining Starks remain alive to the end, the family is pretty much gone in a way that will be nearly impossible to overcome. I'm not even one of those fans who has to watch because of the Stark family...it's just that the way the story arcs the last two seasons have gone makes me feel so very desolate about them. To be honest the story arcs for Arya and Bran and Sansa this season (which felt so much about slow deaths and their realizing they could only continue on if they were no longer a Stark) hit me harder than last season, even though I loved Catelyn and was very fond of Robb.

 

Edited June 20, 2014 by Pete Martell