S01.E05: Justice Never Boarded

[formerlyfreedom]

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Tensions between Third Class and First Class are boiling as Melanie stages the trial of the Snowpiercer killer. Third Class threatens a work stoppage—demanding representation on the jury—and Melanie makes a fateful decision about which side to favor.

Airing Sunday, June 14, 2020.

 

[Mr. Sparkle]

Well, that glass eye thing was different. 

[AnimeMania]

I guess Lilah Folger Jr. "L.J." won't be going to third class for some noodles any time soon.

[Christina]

I was impressed with the actress' ability to portray Lilah as trying to act like she was acting like a victim. She came across as a faker who thought everyone was buying her act, which is a difficult scene to portray, as opposed to coming across as sincere.

Damn, I can't word this in a way that explains what I'm trying to say, because I should be asleep. 

[rwlevin]

Those poor kids. I wonder how they decide who gets an actual apprenticeship vs. who's experimented on in the drawers.

[Empress1]

8 hours ago, Christina said:

I was impressed with the actress' ability to portray Lilah as trying to act like she was acting like a victim. She came across as a faker who thought everyone was buying her act, which is a difficult scene to portray, as opposed to coming across as sincere.

Damn, I can't word this in a way that explains what I'm trying to say, because I should be asleep. 

There was a moment at the end of her conversation with Melanie when she turned on her little girl face when she heard her father at the door. She turned it on & then turned away from Melanie & said “Daddy!” all childlike. She’s a sociopath.

[Netfoot]

I'm getting a little tired of the messianic Layton edit.

The eye thing was... unusual.

29 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

She’s a sociopath.

Yes, and commuting her sentence was a big mistake.  She was plainly guilty, the judgement was unanimous, and commutation obviously sparks up animosity amongst the people of the train who were unwillingly providing her with, uh, trinkets for her jewelry box.

She should have been immediately transported to the Drawers, or the Ejection seat, or what ever the sentence was.

But there has to be grist for the plot-mill, I guess...

[iMonrey]

I'm just not sure where my focus is supposed to be. This episode mostly covered LJ's trial and Josie's hunt for Layton. The murder investigation is clearly over; will the focus now shift to the tail revolt? Which I don't fully understand as of yet. 

Speaking of Josie, I can't imagine she got back in time to switch places with Astrid. Did Astrid have to go back to the tail pretending to be Josie? And is Josie now stuck in third class? Poor Astrid.

[blackwing]

I don't understand why Audrey sent the dish of maggots specifically to the Indian man.  Why him?  Why not send to the Folgers directly?  I did appreciate hearing that the black woman said she has $400 million of early investment credit.  So yeah.  People like her pretty much paid for the entire train and assured the continued existence of all 3000 souls on board, 1001 cars long.  So I'd say she and the rest deserve to be treated like royalty in perpetuity.

However, committing murder isn't justified, no matter what class.  I don't fully understand why Melanie commuted the sentence.  Is it because she told everyone that Sean Wise was an informant?  What does that matter?  Or because she was afraid of the influence of Lilah Folger?  I really can't stand either Lilah.  The daughter is clearly guilty and I hated how they dressed her up in this dress with the scalloped collar that I am assuming was intended to make her look like an innocent Catholic school girl.  If there is an indeed a revolution, I really hope these two meet a quick end. 

I don't understand Till's motivation to help Layton.  And I'm confused... Till is part of security but lives in Third Class.  She gets upgraded to Second Class because she married Jinju, or at least Jinju vouched for her.  So even though she is security and in charge of keeping the law and order, does she identify with the Third Class?  So now Ossweiler, the slimy security guard who apparently merely received probation for fostering an illegal drug trade on the train, knows that Till helped Layton escape.  And he's presumably headed back to report her role in the escape.

Poor Mia... in the Drawers.  There looked to be another teen below her, another Asian girl.

This must be the one of the only TV shows that has a disproportionate percentage of male butts vs. female.   We got Layton twice.  Last week we endured the butt of the Last Australian and the other sanitation guy.  Josie was specifically protected with an overhead camera angle that showed pretty much nothing.  This week we were oh-so-kindly treated to the butt of the English engineer and again the Last Australian.  Meanwhile, I think Jinju has swam in the Ocean tank once.

 

 

Edited June 15, 2020 by blackwing

[rwlevin]

49 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I don't fully understand why Melanie commuted the sentence.  Is it because she told everyone that Sean Wise was an informant?  What does that matter?  Or because she was afraid of the influence of Lilah Folger? 

Neither. Wise told her about the experiments they were doing on people in the drawers. LJ was pretty much blackmailing Melanie when she mentioned the number 400. Don’t forget, earlier I’m the episode, Melanie told the creepy doctor they had 400 drawers and might have to use them all one day. I highly doubt anybody else knows there are kids in the drawers. Till obviously didn’t know about Layton.

[blackwing]

17 minutes ago, rwlevin said:

Neither. Wise told her about the experiments they were doing on people in the drawers. LJ was pretty much blackmailing Melanie when she mentioned the number 400. Don’t forget, earlier I’m the episode, Melanie told the creepy doctor they had 400 drawers and might have to use them all one day. I highly doubt anybody else knows there are kids in the drawers. Till obviously didn’t know about Layton.

Oh I got that... but I didn't understand why it mattered.  So LJ knows some information, big deal.  She clearly hasn't shared any of this information with her dear parents.  Her parents thought she was naive and innocent, and when it came out that Erik was indeed the killer, Lilah instructed her to say she was forced to participate by Erik.

They could have immediately put Lilah Junior in a Drawer, or better yet, eject her off the train.  I was hoping we would witness the first Ejection.  She wouldn't be talking to any more people.  And even if she did get a message to her parents, who would believe the rantings of the spoiled Lilah Folger?

I truly don't understand why there wasn't more security on the Drawers room.  The room can just be jimmied open?  And are there absolutely no security cameras on this train?  If every door requires some kind of access chip, you would think that only the doctor and a small number of people like Melanie would have access to this room.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

1001 cars long...

What is it with this number? They are constantly on about the train being 1001 cars long. Have they counted recently? Suppose there are actually only 999? Or in fact 1002?

We get it! It's a loooong train! With bigger than normal carriages! I just don't know why they keep on harping about the number.

[rmontro]

LJ is kind of a dark, post-apocalyptic Veruca Salt.

On the scenes for next week, there's apparently a problem with the train, and Melanie says "I designed it, I can fix it".  Which kind of suggests she IS the real Mr. Wilford, after all.  But then why did the policeman say that he met Mr. Wilford before boarding?  Maybe he was making it up to impress people?  Or maybe Melanie was Wilford's train designer?  Questions, questions....

Melanie seemed afraid that LJ knew something, like maybe the truth about Mr. Wilford, and that's why she suspended her sentence.

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm just not sure where my focus is supposed to be. This episode mostly covered LJ's trial and Josie's hunt for Layton. The murder investigation is clearly over; will the focus now shift to the tail revolt?

I do think the focus is now going to be on the tail revolt, probably for the rest of the season.

[Chaos Theory]

I hated the movie so I wasn’t really expecting to like this but I really like what this is saying about class.  We have a sociopath in first class who literally gets away with killing people in third class and in the tail we have a bunch of kids who are supposed to be getting apprenticed actually being put in draws.      I think the movie was too over the top for me.   I like the slightly more subtle imagery in this.   Plus the characters are more drawn out.   I really like how you understand Till’s motivation to help out Layton.  It’s partly Shock that he want sent back to the tail and a sense of honor.  She liked the guy despite the fact he was from the tail.  He did what was asked of him.    
 

I am curious now what is going to happen with the Folgers.  Have they lost the power they had in first?   Was that the whole point of Melanie letting Lilah get away with murder?    Having her get convicted would have set something off in first.   Now the Folgers are exposed as murderous frauds.     Melanie just has to worry about Third class and keeping a rebellion from setting off there and she doesn’t know that Layton is out and about yet.  The one person who can start a coup anywhere he goes.

[Dowel Jones]

Early investment was only $400 million? Even if 100 people ponied up that amount, that would be only $40 billion dollars.  For those of you counting, California's HSR is up to around $50 billion and not there yet.  Of course, costs would be much lower to build the rail through the third world, but that brings up the security question and the timeline.  Did the ticketed passengers know they were buying into a survival ark at the time, or was it sold as a fabulous luxury excursion?  I can't imagine 3d class signing up for that kind of abuse in the latter case, and I can't imagine the world joining in to build and maintain a railroad with extraordinary luxury so that a favored few could survive.  Somewhere out there, early on, there would be a derailment with the attendant looting and pillaging. So, to me, it appears that 3d class was offered a chance at survival in return for abject serfdom, which is a perfect recipe for revolt.

I got a kick out of those two looting the drawer car.  Layton?  Who's Layton? Bugger him.  I'm putting out a guess right now.  The "experiments" are either cloning or sperm and egg harvesting, because the train has to perpetuate itself.  There will be a certain amount of death, natural or otherwise, and 1st class would normally be made up of older people who spent their lives accumulating enough wealth to get there.  And, of course, the crowd that "Wilford" assembled in there could give lessons to the Game of Thrones cast.

19 hours ago, Superclam said:

Well, that glass eye thing was different. 

They missed an opportunity for some dark humor there.  LJ: "Daddy, what happens if I'm guilty? Will I go to the drawers?"  Daddy Folger: "I'll keep an eye our for you."

[Empress1]

1 hour ago, rmontro said:

LJ is kind of a dark, post-apocalyptic Veruca Salt.

LJ's trial outfit reminded me of Veruca Salt's. Same high collar.

[rmontro]

6 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

LJ's trial outfit reminded me of Veruca Salt's. Same high collar.

Maybe the similarity is intentional then.

[Raja]

5 hours ago, rmontro said:

LJ is kind of a dark, post-apocalyptic Veruca Salt.

On the scenes for next week, there's apparently a problem with the train, and Melanie says "I designed it, I can fix it".  Which kind of suggests she IS the real Mr. Wilford, after all.  But then why did the policeman say that he met Mr. Wilford before boarding?  Maybe he was making it up to impress people?  Or maybe Melanie was Wilford's train designer?  Questions, questions....

Melanie seemed afraid that LJ knew something, like maybe the truth about Mr. Wilford, and that's why she suspended her sentence.

I do think the focus is now going to be on the tail revolt, probably for the rest of the season.

I think that Mr Wilford is just a composite made up of key members of the 2nd Class, the ones who know the true story of the drawers. They allow the 1st Class their privileges because when the time comes the 1st and not the seeming hard essential workers of the second class will be the ultimate target when the inevitable revolution comes.

And now I get to see the promo for the next episode.🤦‍♂️

[AnimeMania]

Since the 3rd Class have their hands on every system on the train, maybe Melanie wanted them to be mad at Mr. Wilford instead of the 1st Class passengers. Instead of 3rd Class injuring someone in 1st Class, it would be hard to impossible for 3rd Class to injure Mr. Wilford and I am sure they would think twice before trying to doing so. Maybe Mr. Wilford has more spies on the train.

[rmontro]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

And now I get to see the promo for the next episode.🤦‍♂️

I wasn't aware people refrained from watching the "next week on Snowpiercer" bit at the end.  I just consider it part of the episode.  Do I have to start putting spoiler tags on such things?

[AnimeMania]

6 hours ago, rmontro said:

I wasn't aware people refrained from watching the "next week on Snowpiercer" bit at the end.  I just consider it part of the episode.  Do I have to start putting spoiler tags on such things?

I have been watching it on the TNT website. Too lazy to leave the computer for the TV just to watch a single TV show that night. They don't have the "next week on Snowpiercer" bit at the end. 

[iMonrey]

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They could have immediately put Lilah Junior in a Drawer, or better yet, eject her off the train.  I was hoping we would witness the first Ejection.  She wouldn't be talking to any more people.  And even if she did get a message to her parents, who would believe the rantings of the spoiled Lilah Folger?

I'm guessing Melanie doesn't want the Folgers stirring up unrest in First Class. Clearly she doesn't want them to find out she's been posing as Mr. Wilford. What if things get to the point where they demand to see him in person? Frankly I'm surprised that hasn't happened already but I guess we still don't know if he ever existed, and if so, that last time anyone ever saw him.

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I truly don't understand why there wasn't more security on the Drawers room.  The room can just be jimmied open?  And are there absolutely no security cameras on this train?  If every door requires some kind of access chip, you would think that only the doctor and a small number of people like Melanie would have access to this room.

These are the kinds of questions that sort of unravel the fabric of the whole premise. I, too, find it unlikely there would be no security cameras.

[AnimeMania]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

These are the kinds of questions that sort of unravel the fabric of the whole premise. I, too, find it unlikely there would be no security cameras.

Even the first, second and third class identification chips should be encoded with the name of the passenger gaining access so they can track their movements.

[formerlyfreedom]

FYI, promos for the next episode are NOT spoilers in this forum, so discussing them is fine without spoiler tags.

[tennisgurl]

On 6/15/2020 at 5:28 PM, rmontro said:

LJ is kind of a dark, post-apocalyptic Veruca Salt.

 

"But daddy, I want people to torture to death NOOOOWWWWW!" 

Melanie might have solved the temporary problem of LJ blackmailing her with dark secrets she heard from the dead guy (involving people being sent to the drawers who arent criminals?) but she has created a much bigger problem letting LJ off even after she was found guilty. If LJ was found guilty and sentenced, that would have probably done a lot to quell the unrest in third class, but now? The train needs third class to keep functioning, and if they all just stop doing stuff, then what are they going to do? The tallies are clearly itching for a fight, third is about three seconds from a full scale riot, and no one in their tribunal of all three main classes looked happy about this choice, so she basically pissed off just about everyone in the train. I mean, if I was in first, I wouldn't want to live next door to someone who just tortured people to death! LJ is clearly a psychopath, and I totally see her killing again, and then what? Hush it up? Another slap on the wrist? If she is locked in a drawer, she cant tell secrets OR kill people!

I thought the actress playing LJ was a bit over the top last week, but she was really good this week, going from sad little girl, crying crocodile tears at the trail, to dead eyed psychopath when she isn't trying to perform. Also, that eye thing? What now? 

It was kind of sweet that the three jury members from first, second, and third all seemed to hit it off, and they even all agreed on the verdict! I wonder if it hints at a more united train at some point? 

Poor Mia, what is going on there? Why do some kids go to their apprenticeships and some get put in cold storage?

[blackwing]

34 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Melanie might have solved the temporary problem of LJ blackmailing her with dark secrets she heard from the dead guy (involving people being sent to the drawers who arent criminals?) but she has created a much bigger problem letting LJ off even after she was found guilty.

Poor Mia, what is going on there? Why do some kids go to their apprenticeships and some get put in cold storage?

I still don't understand this.  If Melanie was afraid that LJ was going to blackmail her with the knowledge about the experiments... wouldn't the solution have been to immediately send LJ into a drawer?  That's what she did with Layton... Layton found out Melanie is or is posing as Mr. Wilford.  Layton goes into a drawer.

I don't see any reason why LJ wouldn't continue to blackmail and threaten Melanie.  She is not a good person so there's no reason for Melanie to trust that she won't say anything to her friends in First.  Also, why couldn't the death sentence have been commuted, but have her get probation and get confined to a cell?

I am trying to figure out the difference between Second and Third.  Are there any paying Second and Third Class passengers?  From what we have been shown, it seems like Third Class consists of the grunt workers on the train.  Who is in Second Class?  Jinju and some higher end "white collar" workers like the schoolteacher? Doesn't seem like there would be that many Second Class people.  The cabin that English engineer was in, is that his cabin and is it in Second Class?  Or was it Melanie's?

We saw Miles actually in school.  Not sure why Mia didn't get the same treatment.  I guess "apprenticeship" might just be code for "experiments".  But if so, why the kids?  Why not other random Tailees?  Why not take the mom of the revolt girl for a drawer instead of cutting her arm off?

[Quilt Fairy]

On 6/15/2020 at 5:21 PM, Netfoot said:

What is it with this number? They are constantly on about the train being 1001 cars long. Have they counted recently? Suppose there are actually only 999? Or in fact 1002?

We get it! It's a loooong train! With bigger than normal carriages! I just don't know why they keep on harping about the number.

I'm not sure this answers your question, but IIRC, the last episode of the season is titled

Spoiler

"997 Cars Long".  (It might have been 994, but you get the gist, some cars are going to be jettisoned or otherwise lost.)  

 

Edited June 17, 2020 by Quilt Fairy

[tennisgurl]

12 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I am trying to figure out the difference between Second and Third.  Are there any paying Second and Third Class passengers? 

From what I have gathered, third class is mostly blue collar workers who do manual work, including the security forces for the most part, as well as being that work in restaurants and with food production and also maybe entertainment? With the nightcar and everything? While second class are more white collar workers that have more specialized jobs with higher education, like scientists, engineers, teachers, and I think the hospitality workers are second class too? I assume that second and third class all got on the train with their jobs, while first got them by paying for the train or for their tickets? Meanwhile, first class are the rich people who funded the train and just kind of sit around being rich? We dont know much about what second class is like, we have mostly been in the other ones, I would like to know a bit more about it and what the living conditions are like, because it is kind of hard to see where the cut off is between second and third class. How much do the different classes interact?  

[meep.meep]

1 hour ago, blackwing said:

I still don't understand this.  If Melanie was afraid that LJ was going to blackmail her with the knowledge about the experiments... wouldn't the solution have been to immediately send LJ into a drawer?  That's what she did with Layton... Layton found out Melanie is or is posing as Mr. Wilford.  Layton goes into a drawer.

............

We saw Miles actually in school.  Not sure why Mia didn't get the same treatment.  I guess "apprenticeship" might just be code for "experiments".  But if so, why the kids?  Why not other random Tailees?  Why not take the mom of the revolt girl for a drawer instead of cutting her arm off?

Layton is from the Tail.  No one knows who is back there - none of the 1st, 2nd, or 3rd class folks are hanging around the Tail.  Only the Tailees know that Layton is missing and nobody cares what they think.  So she could put Layton in the drawer with no one the wiser.

LJ is known in 1st and 2nd.  Everyone knows that Wilford pardoned her.  She can't just get disappeared.  And she would have told her parents about "Wilford" if she wasn't pardoned.

The arm cutting off was done to suppress future uprisings.  Just taking the culprit away wouldn't have the same shock and awe effect.

[Raja]

I can't shake the feeling that all these ex cops hired by the train to be security saw The Hunger Games and saw themselves as Capitol goons.

[redpencil]

Quote

On the scenes for next week, there's apparently a problem with the train, and Melanie says "I designed it, I can fix it".  Which kind of suggests she IS the real Mr. Wilford, after all.  But then why did the policeman say that he met Mr. Wilford before boarding?  Maybe he was making it up to impress people?  Or maybe Melanie was Wilford's train designer?  Questions, questions....

I still think there at least was a real Mr. Wilford at some point, and that's the guy some people met and the man whose voice Melanie used, spliced together from what sounded like old shareholder meetings. He probably started the original company (whatever kind of company it was before everything started), but by the time people started realizing the Earth was in trouble, he may not have been running day-to-day operations anymore. My guess is Melanie was always the brains behind the whole train project, and Mr. Wilford was the figure head at that point. Maybe he was involved only by being the trusted face behind the plan, raising money, but Melanie was always the one designing and building the thing.

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I am trying to figure out the difference between Second and Third.  Are there any paying Second and Third Class passengers?  

I'm pretty sure at least some second class passengers bought tickets. They just didn't get the same accommodations, and some clearly have jobs of some sort on the train. They specifically referred to the original tribunal as "ticketed passengers" from first and second.

Lilah Sr. clearly knows her daughter is a sociopath, but doesn't care. She told that story about her poking out her dad's eye, and also some of her facial expressions when they were talking to her early in the episode clearly showed a contrast between how she sees LJ and how her husband sees LJ. She knows what LJ is. I'm not even sure she likes LJ, but that's her "bloodline" so she'll do whatever it takes to protect her. Dad, however, still seems to be at least somewhat delusional.

In regards to commuting her sentence, I definitely think it was partly the issue of what LJ knew, but also I think there was genuine fear that that commander guy (is he the police commander?) might try to oust her, based on the reports from that meeting he had with LJ's dad and a couple other first class passengers. So it was also placating whatever portion of first would raise a fuss. Though I feel like there could have been a middle ground that would accomplish both. I don't know if they have any cells besides that one we've seen, but she could have had a short "jail term" and then been confined to her quarters as "probation" for however many years, or something.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Gee, the ep title didn't give anything away, did it?

[Mr. Sparkle]

1 hour ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Gee, the ep title didn't give anything away, did it?

Lol. "The Spoiled Rich Girl Totally Gets Away With It" doesn't have the same ring to it. 

[Empress1]

On 6/17/2020 at 2:12 PM, tennisgurl said:

From what I have gathered, third class is mostly blue collar workers who do manual work, including the security forces for the most part, as well as being that work in restaurants and with food production and also maybe entertainment? With the nightcar and everything? While second class are more white collar workers that have more specialized jobs with higher education, like scientists, engineers, teachers, and I think the hospitality workers are second class too? I assume that second and third class all got on the train with their jobs, while first got them by paying for the train or for their tickets? Meanwhile, first class are the rich people who funded the train and just kind of sit around being rich? We dont know much about what second class is like, we have mostly been in the other ones, I would like to know a bit more about it and what the living conditions are like, because it is kind of hard to see where the cut off is between second and third class. How much do the different classes interact?  

I think the classes are more or less the classes we have now: first class is the idle rich, who are insulated from various problems by virtue of being able to buy a cocoon; second class is, as you say, white-collar workers, people who are maybe more educated and passionate about their jobs (a thread of classism runs through the oft-quoted "do what you love/find your passion" advice); third class is the blue-collar workers - work without which society would not function but is often looked down upon.

I get the impression that the second class interacts the most with people from different classes. Third may SEE people from different classes (those in the service industry serve first class, for example) but they certainly don't interact with first class in any real way. Or rather, first class doesn't interact with THEM in any real way.